Brawl+ Stage legality discussion

[ph00tbag]

Right, but why would you leave the platforms how they are over just destroying them from the start? How is competition improved from that?

Maybe you're good at teching, and your opponent isn't?

 

[stingers]

Maybe you're good at teching, and your opponent isn't?

>.> Come on ph00t.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

Also, about Warioware: No stage is truly "Neutral". For example, even though Final D and Battlefield are both "Neutral" stages, DDD has the advantage on Wario on Final, but it's not as easy on Battlefield. "Neutral" stages are really decided by how the cast as a whole does on the stage, and major outliers should be ignored. For a stage like Final, DDD/Falco for the good balance out Ike/Ganon for the bad. It might not be perfectly even, but it's close enough to even that we can call it fair. All neutrals share similar qualities like similar death boundaries, similar size, no game-changing random events, and no broken stage-dependent strategies that HEAVILY tilt the advantage in a character's favor over a considerable amount of the cast.

A stage like Warioware breaks a few of those rules: One, a character with a good juggle game is UNSTOPPABLE on Warioware if played right. There is no safe way back down to the ground (unless you're uh...MK, Kirby, or Jiggs, but that's why it's the requirement says "considerable amount of the cast" and not "all of it"). On a stage like Final D, you can just aim for the edge in the worst case scenario and you're safe. On Warioware, the blast zones are too close to the sides of the stage, so you can die at much lower %s then normal if you have to resort to going offstage in order to stop being juggled. Also, of course, the blast zones are smaller then the other neutral stages. Thankfully they're not as terrible as they were in vBrawl, but you'll notice that characters die, on average, about 25% earlier on Warioware then other Neutral stages.

The size of the stage is also very small, even smaller than Battlefield, which is already smaller than Yoshis/SV/FD. The small size supports camping underneath platforms more than Battlefield (the most similar neutral to WW), because you're often forced into approaching due to the fact you're always within arms reach of your opponent. Having such an advantageous position should NEVER be allowed in a neutral stage. The only thing it shares in common with the other Neutrals is that there are no game-changing random events (though, we did have to hack the stage to do that in the first place ).

You shouldn't use Stage Striking as a basis to include stages that aren't good enough for the other method (AKA Random Select), because you have to consider that a player is losing one of their VERY IMPORTANT bans over a stage that shouldn't be legal in the first place, which means picking a character that excels on Warioware could give you an advantage before the game even starts. For example, Marth has 3 really good Neutrals in this scenario: Warioware, Battlefield, and Yoshis. If he now has guaranteed access to one of these...that's clearly not a good thing.

i dont think this is enough to concider it a cp
the juggling characters only dominate whre the platforms are wich is a bout 1/3 of the stage
delfino was concidered a neutral/cp for a long time and i dont think this is quite as controvercial as dp

 

[Glick]

Spear pillar = Banned
Wario Ware = Neutral
Luigis mansion = Banned/CP
Dead Lands= CP
Wifi Stage= CP but stupid as ****.

Skyworld= CP The platform could be used like it was in yoshis in melee.

       ____     <-Perma Destroyed    
 ___         ___  <-Both Perma Destroyed

  ________  <-Perma Unhittable
/

    ___   <-Perma Unhittable

 

[stingers]

Juggle characters dominate the whole stage...no matter where you go, you're never safe. That's the thing. You can't AD through, because that means you're going through the very small hole in the middle, which can...obviously be predicted and punished. If you go to a platform, you can be punished. If you go for the ledge, you can be punished. It's a jugglers heaven.

 

[FSLink]

So what does everyone think of bringing back deadlands?

Personally, I like both the Mansion and deadlands. I say keep Deadlands as neutral, then hold a button or add another icon to activate slow Luigi's Mansion.
Maaaaybe bundle a texture with the deadlands like the one I saw that had the moon orange, from Luigi's Mansion's final boss battle. It's not that much different from the normal texture so it's not distracting, and it'd set the stages apart more.

 

[Mattnumbers]

I really enjoy deadlands, I personally think its just as unique from FD as Smashville.

We need an odd # of Neutrals though is the only problem.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

it might even be arguable that deadlands is cp cuz of how **** huge it is
and how long it takes to kill some characters

 

[leafgreen386]

it might even be arguable that deadlands is cp cuz of how **** huge it is
and how long it takes to kill some characters

Dreamland says hi.

 

[ph00tbag]

>.> Come on ph00t.

Come on stongers. D~

Also, just about everything you say about WW can be said about Marf on Yoshi's Story in Melee.

Except on YS, Marth could auto-tipper.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

Dreamland says hi.

yeah, but i dont think dreamland is THAT big, is it? o.0

 

[ph00tbag]

yeah, but i dont think dreamland is THAT big, is it? o.0

Watch Mango vs. Armada on that stage and see how long they live.

It's kind of dumb.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

Watch Mango vs. Armada on that stage and see how long they live.

It's kind of dumb.

some could say: because how long the stage is: it gives an advantage to the lazor characters

imo its neutral, but coouulld be cp if the host really really wanted it to, lol

 

[Nybb]

my personal opinion
Brawl+
SINGLES STAGES
current (8-13) nightly

Starter
Yoshi's Island [Brawl]
Battlefield
Smashville
Final Destination
Pokémon Stadium 2

Starter/Counter
WarioWare Inc.
Castle Siege
Halberd
Lylat Cruise

Counter
Delfino Plaza
Rumble Falls Online pratice stage
Pokémon Stadium 1
Lylat Cruise
Delfino Plaza
Brinstar
Frigate Orpheon
Rainbow Cruise
Jungle Japes
PictoChat
Green Greens
Luigi's Mansion
Norfair
Corneria
Yoshi's Island [Melee]

Banned Untill Coded/changed
***these are some of the stages i have heard talk of editing, or i think might be able to be legal if changed (ex: freezing ect.) ***
Pirate Ship - Change water/freeze
Green Hill Zone - non attackable parts/freeze
Skyworld - top platforms destroyed
Port Town Aero Dive - freeze/car damage reduction
Distant Planet - rain/ freeze
Spear Pillar - Misc. changes..
Big Blue - slow down

Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1 - Camera/Boundry changes
Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2 - Misc. ideas
Mario Circuit - Camera/Boundry changes
Bridge of Eldin - Camera/Boundry changes
Onett - Camera/Boundry changes, car damage/KB reduction

BANNED
75m
Hanenbow
New Pork City
Shadow Moses Island
Summit
Mario Bros.
Flat Zone 2
Temple

I pretty much agree with your list, I just added a separate starter/cp category that I think should exist. I think 5 neutral stages is a nice number if you are doing random first stage, but if you are doing stage striking then I think the 4 stages in that starter/cp category could all be viable to put in. IMO I would recommend that TOs do stage striking and add two of the starter/cp stages to the starter category.

The top part of Spear Pillar is what NEEDS to be kept. The bottom part needs to be gotten rid of, but there's no way to do that because raising the blast zones just makes the stage unplayable. If you could somehow put an invisible wall that doesn't let you get to the cave, and froze the stage, it'd also be a nice counterpick.

There was an idea floating around a while ago where the left + middle portions of the top were permanently destroyed, while the right third of the top platform was kept intact. Then to compensate for the techable ceiling, the right stage boundary was brought a little bit closer to the stage. I think this would be an interesting counterpick if it was possible to implement.

 

[timothyung]

The pic of the Spear Pillar idea:

 

[leafgreen386]

So... if you try to kill them off the right, they tech it. If you try to kill them off the left, they live extra long due to the extended side. If you try to kill them straight up they also live extra long since the standard fighting ground is now closer to the bottom of the level.

That said, it could still be a decent CP, and would certainly be fairly unique due to the uneven sides.

 

[Alphatron]

The only problem with that though are the spawning points. Hello T-pose pokemon.

In addition to keeping the platform above the standard ground Cresselia should be made permanant. But she only ever uses the attack where she fires crescents at the top row. This discourages platform camping a bit.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

when we are able to edit stages like this im sure we'll find a way to fix spawning points

SOOOoooo... lets see
if everyone likes this list then we have to find out who's going to color the SSS to match the banned and legal stages
Green - Starter
Yellow - CP
Red - Banned

?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

If Pirate Ship removes the water and freezes...it would be neutral...like really @.@ It needs to be done D:

Unique Gimmick>another neutral in this case. The ship just needs a retune. Not an N-bomb.

Distant Planet and Port Town Aero Dive can work

I don't know what is wrong with Distant Planet (walk-off, camping below the branch?), but Aero Drive couldn't be that hard. Just make the cars a lot less powerful. Like, maybe, 10 damage on hit and kills around 120% on lightweights?

Norfair would be even better with a freeze def, I think it's fine now but a freeze would be better so I'd support it

No. Nonononono. Norfair is very unique in competetive brawl in that it's a stage with a lot of great hazards and the like that isn't banned. And the hazards aren't a big enough deal to freeze it. Keep Norfair as is!

1-1 probably has some parts that can work? I need to play it more

Anyone tried the BBrawl variant of that? Could that work?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
my personal opinion
Brawl+
SINGLES STAGES
current (8-13) nightly

Starter
Yoshi's Island [Brawl]
Battlefield
Smashville
Final Destination
Pokémon Stadium 2
WarioWare Inc.

Counter
Rumble Falls Online pratice stage

Okay, what? Counterpick? This stage is like Final Destination with something to stop excessive projectile spamming. This is arguably the most neutral stage, I'd argue. Why counterpick? Replace Warioware with this; the juggling argument is really good.

Castle Siege
Halberd
Pokémon Stadium 1
Lylat Cruise
Delfino Plaza

All of these are arguably neutrals...

Brinstar
Frigate Orpheon
Rainbow Cruise
Jungle Japes
PictoChat
Green Greens

Where the blastlines on this fixed? Just wondering. Same to corneria.

Luigi's Mansion
Norfair
Corneria
Yoshi's Island [Melee]

Seriously-were blastlines fixed? Yoshi's has some really broken ****. Other than that, pretty much in agreement. Except Luigi's. That needs some kind of fix.

-----

Banned Untill Coded/changed
***these are some of the stages i have heard talk of editing, or i think might be able to be legal if changed (ex: freezing ect.) ***
Pirate Ship - Change water/freeze

The former please. See above.

Green Hill Zone - non attackable parts/freeze

I dunno... still a walkoff... are those okay now?

Skyworld - top platforms destroyed

Top platforms permagone, outer platforms slower respawn seems good...

Port Town Aero Dive - freeze/car damage reduction

The latter. Damage and knockback. See above.

Distant Planet - rain/ freeze

What do you mean? There should always or never be rain?

Spear Pillar - Misc. changes..
Big Blue - slow down

would that work? I don't think so...

Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1 - Camera/Boundry changes

And a slowdown. Look at BB.

Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2 - Misc. ideas

Ew, no.

Mario Circuit - Camera/Boundry changes

Like what? I think this could already be a fine counterpick...

Bridge of Eldin - Camera/Boundry changes

Smaller? That would make it probably a decent CP...

Onett - Camera/Boundry changes, car damage/KB reduction

/agree

BANNED
75m
Hanenbow
New Pork City
Shadow Moses Island
Summit
Mario Bros.
Flat Zone 2
Temple[/QUOTE]

/Agree.

As for skyworld... I agree with making the bottom unhittable, the top autobroken, and the side platforms breakable with increased respawn time. Would make a nice CP.

/agree.

So what does everyone think of bringing back deadlands?

This is a good idea.

 

[Swordplay]

I think in general, we can agree on most of the singles list......

Were I see variation is in B+ doubles play and how stage legality is affected in Doubles, I'd like to see it become more standardized and work towards getting a few of those possibly good doubles stages CP's..........


On the topic of sky world. Maybe its me but I never minded hittable platforms. However the cave was a problem. I would perma-break the top platforms and allow unbreakable but hittable bottom platforms. That would keep kind of the flavor of sky words. (Fun to bounce???) I think the hit lag and certain moves bounching would make it a interesting CP.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

Unique Gimmick>another neutral in this case. The ship just needs a retune. Not an N-bomb.

yup

I don't know what is wrong with Distant Planet (walk-off, camping below the branch?), but Aero Drive couldn't be that hard. Just make the cars a lot less powerful. Like, maybe, 10 damage on hit and kills around 120% on lightweights?

walk off, and hazards i beleive was the problem

i'd argue even less knockback then that

No. Nonononono. Norfair is very unique in competetive brawl in that it's a stage with a lot of great hazards and the like that isn't banned. And the hazards aren't a big enough deal to freeze it. Keep Norfair as is!

imo the hazards really arent that bad

Anyone tried the BBrawl variant of that? Could that work?

what is their fix? i was thinking of increasing the boundry size (and zooming hte camera in OR keeping it the same) to discourage camping

Okay, what? Counterpick? This stage is like Final Destination with something to stop excessive projectile spamming. This is arguably the most neutral stage, I'd argue. Why counterpick? Replace Warioware with this; the juggling argument is really good.

the sandbag makes it a counter against ppl like falco that rely on projectiles, and campy characters. and it changes the camera wich could be a distraction, the camera also zooms in more than other stages i think, wich could cause someone to mis-calculate where the ledges are

and i'd have to say warioware and wifi waiting room both belong in the cp/starter area

All of these are arguably neutrals...

Castle Siege - walk off area/ ****ty ledges on the first area
Halberd - hazards
Pokémon Stadium 1 - neutral imo
Lylat Cruise - ****ty ledges and a few other things
Delfino Plaza - water areas, walk off edges, walls


Seriously-were blastlines fixed? Yoshi's has some really broken ****. Other than that, pretty much in agreement. Except Luigi's. That needs some kind of fix.

idk

10stages...

 

[stingers]

it seems to me like you guys aren't seeing this from a competitive point of view...

 

[RPGsFTW]

       ____     <-Perma Destroyed    
 ___         ___  <-Breakable (slowed down?)

  ________  <-Perma Unhittable
/

    ___   <-Perma Unhittable

^This. I heavily agree. I think that the top can only cause the "Cave of Life" problem. The sides, however, might be just enough to keep the stage close enough to its original state without drifting too far away from being a decent CP.

Also, I hated the Deadlands. I see no point in a bigger, taller ceiling, FD, with somewhat stupid ledges.

I agree with the campyness of WarioWare, with too big of an advantage to some characters. WarioWare CP, please!

Also, something that was brought to my attention today about Pirate Ship. IF it is to be frozen and to lose its water that sounds great, but the way the very middle of the ship is, with the slants and above platforms, makes me think that it should be instand CP, not Neutral.

 

[Alphatron]

Mushroom Kingdom 1-1 cannot be saved. No matter what you do. The areas between two pipes are ridiculous, and can lead to some infinites should you actually get caught there. Also the star KO border is pretty silly.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

so does this list seem decent?

Brawl+
SINGLES STAGES
current (8-13) nightly

Starter
Yoshi's Island [Brawl]
Battlefield
Smashville
Final Destination
Pokémon Stadium 2


Starter/Counter
WarioWare Inc.
Castle Siege
Halberd
Rumble Falls Online pratice stage
Pokémon Stadium 1

Counter
Lylat Cruise
Delfino Plaza
Brinstar
Frigate Orpheon
Rainbow Cruise
Luigi's Mansion


Counter/Banned
(could use some changes to ensure legality)
Corneria
Yoshi's Island [Melee]
Jungle Japes
Norfair
Green Greens
PictoChat

-----
Banned Untill Coded/changed
***these are some of the stages i have heard talk of editing, or i think might be able to be legal if changed (ex: freezing ect.) ***

Pirate Ship - Change water/freeze
Green Hill Zone - non attackable parts/freeze
Skyworld -
Basic overall plan:

Port Town Aero Dive - freeze/car damage reduction
Distant Planet - rain/ freeze
Spear Pillar -
Basic overall plan:

Big Blue - slow down
Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1 - Camera/Boundry changes
Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2 - Misc. ideas
Mario Circuit - Camera/Boundry changes
Bridge of Eldin - Camera/Boundry changes
Onett - Camera/Boundry changes, car damage/KB reduction

BANNED
75m
Hanenbow
New Pork City
Shadow Moses Island
Summit
Mario Bros.
Flat Zone 2
Temple

 

[stingers]

i disagree with a lot of that...but i'll just deal with the main stagelist instead of how to fix stages cuz we'll be arguing forever

Move PS1 to counter

Get rid of Starter/Counter...everyone always puts it all in Counter

Get rid of Green Greens and Pictochat

Put in Norfair

Then get rid of Counter/Banned and just ban the rest

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

why? : P

10why?s

 

[stingers]

PS1 stage transformations
Starter/counter is a useless category
Green Greens has small blast zones, blocks that can either save you at 200% or kill you at 0%, bombs, and apples. Enlarge the blast zones and get rid of the blocks and it's a hella good stage
Pictochat's transformations are entirely random and often game breaking (80% of them have a chokepoint that is impossible to approach if your opponent doesn't suck lol...yeah that's so "fair")
norfair is fine though...it's campy but you can actually stop camping here...especially with no more auto ledge cling, people like MK can't just move from ledge to ledge anymore safely. even if you're ever "cornered" there's always at least one available escape route...which is nice. i'd like it being frozen but..that'll never happen...because as far as brawl+ creators are concerned, gimmicks are more important then viable stages @.@

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

i took a few of ur changes into mind and edited it
i'd like to see what other ppl think
and this obviously isnt official
the wbr would have to take a look and decide

 

[Nybb]

i disagree with a lot of that...but i'll just deal with the main stagelist instead of how to fix stages cuz we'll be arguing forever

Move PS1 to counter

Get rid of Starter/Counter...everyone always puts it all in Counter

Get rid of Green Greens and Pictochat

Put in Norfair

Then get rid of Counter/Banned and just ban the rest

Starter/counter is for TOs who are doing stage striking (which is a much better method than random IMO). So no, everyone does not always put it all in counter. Counter/banned ideally will be an unnecessary category, as all the borderline banned stages would be made into viable CPs, but we'll see how that goes. As for right now, I think it's fine to dump the debatable stages in there and leave them up to TOs to figure out.

I think Mch12's most recent list a few posts up is very good for the current version. My only gripe would be that Lylat should go up to Starter/CP from CP, and in it's place WFWR should drop down to CP. There's really not a lot wrong with Lylat, it's just that the stages in pure neutral are, well, more neutral. And five is a nice size for the pure neutral category.

The WFWR I feel is just too big to get out of CP. Matches on it take waaay too long, especially with the sandbag in to aid defence. The camera on the stage is also hugely annoying...not only the sandbag causing horrible zooms, but the fact that the sky is so plain and the boundaries are so far out: when both players are in the air and the camera zooms in on them, it's really easy to lose track of where the stage is relative to the players.

Green Greens is fine in CP/Banned. The bigger boundaries and slowdown make it at least playable, although it could be argued that the glitches from vBrawl that held it back there are still in place (I think they happen too rarely to ban the stage personally). I could see some more picky TOs ban it though, and I couldn't really argue against that, which is why the borderline group is a good place for it.

 

[stingers]

you're aware he edited the list right

there only major problem is the starter/counter and counter/banned category.

just get rid of it. TOs will pick and choose stages anyway, the 2 categories are just needless clutter.

 

[Swordplay]

The WFWR I feel is just too big to get out of CP. Matches on it take waaay too long, especially with the sandbag in to aid defence. The camera on the stage is also hugely annoying...not only the sandbag causing horrible zooms, but the fact that the sky is so plain and the boundaries are so far out: when both players are in the air and the camera zooms in on them, it's really easy to lose track of where the stage is relative to the players.

A simple way to fix this is a simple texture hack.....

Maybe the center of the stage is green tiled and as you move out, you go to lime, then yellow, then orange, then red at the edges.

Items cause camera problems on their own but if the sandbag must be kept, then it shall be. But a color texture hack can help players understand where thier characters are relative to stage.


Its a radical idea but I was kinda hoping since this is the ONE stage that WE implemented, (IE not edited a already there stage) I think there is room to decide if we can decide on a stage texture hack standard for it. We could probably use what the WBR is using to update Pac Files in a similar sense.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

well heres an idea or 2 for doubles
-i moved warioware down because i think its way too small to be neutral or cp/neutral
-Wifi Waiting room is a starter because the bag's advantages are much lower and the camera will likely not be a problem with all the players around
*Alot of changes could probably be made...
Brawl+
DOUBLES STAGES
current (8-13) nightly

Starter
Yoshi's Island [Brawl]
Battlefield
Smashville
Final Destination
Pokémon Stadium 2
Rumble Falls Online pratice stage [from starter/counter]
Pokémon Stadium 1 [from starter/counter]

Starter/Counter
Castle Siege
Halberd

Counter
Lylat Cruise
Delfino Plaza
Brinstar
Frigate Orpheon
Rainbow Cruise
Luigi's Mansion


Counter/Banned
(could use some changes to ensure legality)
Corneria
Yoshi's Island [Melee]
Jungle Japes
Norfair
Green Greens
PictoChat
WarioWare Inc. [from starter/counter]

-----

A simple way to fix this is a simple texture hack.....

Maybe the center of the stage is green tiled and as you move out, you go to lime, then yellow, then orange, then red at the edges.

Items cause camera problems on their own but if the sandbag must be kept, then it shall be. But a color texture hack can help players understand where thier characters are relative to stage.


Its a radical idea but I was kinda hoping since this is the ONE stage that WE implemented, (IE not edited a already there stage) I think there is room to decide if we can decide on a stage texture hack standard for it. We could probably use what the WBR is using to update Pac Files in a similar sense.

i think this could help,
a camera zoom-out would probably help alot too

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Japes, Norfair, and Pictochat, are all easily counterpicks. Why are they potentially banned? Also, what fix would be needed for Green Greens?

 

[MK26]

       ____     <-Perma Destroyed    
 ___         ___  <-Breakable (slowed down?)

  ________  <-Perma Unhittable
/

    ___   <-Perma Unhittable

this
10this

so does this list seem decent?

Brawl+
SINGLES STAGES
current (8-13) nightly

Starter
Yoshi's Island [Brawl]
Battlefield
Smashville
Final Destination
Pokémon Stadium 2


Starter/Counter
WarioWare Inc.
Castle Siege yeah...no
Halberd See Castle Siege
Pokémon Stadium lol
Rumble Falls Online pratice stage See PS1. Might be worthy of replacing WarioWare in doubles

Counter
Lylat Cruise Either you have 5 neutrals, or the 5 above plus WarioWare and this guy. Lylat Cruise is 100% neutral.
Delfino Plaza
Brinstar
Frigate Orpheon
Rainbow Cruise
Luigi's Mansion


Counter/Banned
(could use some changes to ensure legality)
Corneria In the present situation, no
Yoshi's Island [Melee] See Corneria
Jungle Japes TO's jurisdiction, so this is the right place for it
Norfair See JJ. Also, should be CP in teams regardless.
Green Greens See JJ
PictoChat There is absolutely nothing bannable about this stage. CP

-----
Banned Untill Coded/changed
***these are some of the stages i have heard talk of editing, or i think might be able to be legal if changed (ex: freezing ect.) ***

Pirate Ship - Change water/freeze
Green Hill Zone - non attackable parts/freeze
Skyworld -
Basic overall plan:

Port Town Aero Dive - freeze/car damage reduction
Distant Planet - rain/ freeze
Spear Pillar -
Basic overall plan:

Big Blue - slow down
Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1 - Camera/Boundry changes
Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2 - Misc. ideas
Mario Circuit - Camera/Boundry changes
Bridge of Eldin - Camera/Boundry changes
Onett - Camera/Boundry changes, car damage/KB reduction

I thik the plan for walkoffs was to make a camera code that increased the size of the boundaries without touching the offstage part...making a larger distance where one can get hoop damage (which would discourage blastzone camping)

BANNED
75m
Hanenbow
New Pork City
Shadow Moses Island
Summit
Mario Bros.
Flat Zone 2
Temple

 

[Mattnumbers]

Stingers, the point of not having every stage be neutral is that it ruins the CP system. You DON'T want a lot of neutrals, what you want are a bunch of varied CP's with different things in them to make it so certain characters perform worse or better on them. There should only be a fairly small list (<10 imo) of neutrals (preferably an odd amount). This way there is a rich CP system that forces you to know not only character-character matchups, but character-stage matchups as well, and it also forces you to really consider what to ban/pick, but at the same time there are a good amount of Neutrals to pick without major advantage swings.

Anyways, I think that they should remake deadlands and put that and WW in neutrals. WW's platforms are fallthrough, it's not like they completely stop all aerial approaches, they just let you stand at an elevated position. The stage is much less campy than FD is.

And Deadlands was just a good stage, the platforms were close to each other in the middle of the stage and there were only two of them, and the platforms themselves went down when you stepped on them. Maybe it could use some blast zone adjustment though.

PS1 just needs Melee windmill and it will be neutral as well, so maybe we should find another so we can have a total of 9 Neutrals:

FD
Battlefield
Smashville
Yoshi's Island
WW
Deadlands
PS2
PS1
Lylat? Or maybe something else?

 

[stingers]

matt i wish you were more intelligent so people could take what you say seriously

"We don't need a lot of neutrals, here's a list of 9 we should use."

 

[Mattnumbers]

matt i wish you were more intelligent so people could take what you say seriously

"We don't need a lot of neutrals, here's a list of 9 we should use."

9 isn't that many....I said under 10. Really? You missed that? Taking Speed Reading courses perchance?

EDIT: Also it would be only 7 if we don't add deadlands back in, since you need an odd number. I would just leave out Lylat as well if we didn't have deadlands.

 

[stingers]

holy ****, i know you said under 10. but you criticized me for wanting too many neutrals, when all I wanted was to add on Pirate Ship, then you gave me a list of 9 stages you think should be neutral. are you really that fucking stupid or is this just a huge act in order to try and troll me.

 

[Mattnumbers]

No, I'm replying to how you have multiple times said that we should make Neutrals instead of CP's, and called Count_Kaiser an idiot when he suggested that we don't want too many.

Stages having gimmicks is what makes different characters do better on certain stages, moreso than just having different platforms.

9 is not a ridiculous amount of stages, 7 would be better of course, but 9 is better than 8 or 6