Brawl+ Stage legality discussion

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Care to explain, or just accuse? You're not very good at backing up retorts, here.
It's a small, platform-intensive stage that's a disadvantage of projectile spammers, and advantage to characters with larger, or disjointed hitboxes. How is that different than Battlefield?

It's far more extreme.

 

[Shadic]

I already did...read the thread before posting

Or you could have just quoted yourself. It's amazing, you typically have a better memory of what you've posted four days ago than I do! Who would have thought?

That aside, I do agree that it's a bit extreme, and can see why having it a starter would be controversial. I do think that expanding the boundaries though would make it a halfway reasonable neutral, though.

Protip: If you want civilized discussion, don't claim somebody "has no idea what they're talking about," just because they disagree with you.

 

[stingers]

lol, calm down there buddy! not my fault you didn't read my argument before posting, or else this misunderstanding never would've happened.

protip: you did have no idea what you were talking about. now that you're educated, congrats, you've joined the informed.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Or you could have just quoted yourself. It's amazing, you typically have a better memory of what you've posted four days ago than I do! Who would have thought?

That aside, I do agree that it's a bit extreme, and can see why having it a starter would be controversial. I do think that expanding the boundaries though would make it a halfway reasonable neutral, though.

Protip: If you want civilized discussion, don't claim somebody "has no idea what they're talking about," just because they disagree with you.

I don't think it has as much to do with the boundries as the proportions of the stage itself; if you can make the whole stage about 1/3 bigger, then we're talking...

 

[Shadic]

lol, calm down there buddy! not my fault you didn't read my argument before posting, or else this misunderstanding never would've happened.

i get soooooo mad when i see stupid things
things i disagree with heavily and cannot see the reason why anyone would ever support the other option
i'm a terrible devils advocate
sorry

You've already admitted you're overly militant. Apology accepted.
And you think I should have every reply in this 120-post thread memorized?

protip: you did have no idea what you were talking about. now that you're educated, congrats, you've joined the informed.

As said, I'm just as informed on why I think the way I do as I've always been. Stop trying to degrade me because you disagree.

I don't think it has as much to do with the boundries as the proportions of the stage itself; if you can make the whole stage about 1/3 bigger, then we're talking...

I think the small size is part of the charm. It should never be used in anything other than a 1v1, but it's not so small you can't compete.

 

[MK26]

I think the small size is part of the charm. It should never be used in anything other than a 1v1, but it's not so small you can't compete.

Except for Boozer+ challenges

Cmon, it's a perfectly fine neutral, as far as the definition of neutral goes. It has a unique platform layout, doesnt move, and its platforms create a battle for vertical space rather than horizontal space like, say, on FD.

Banned in doubles?...eh...yeah, i can see the problems there. But that's what the WWR is for, mirite? WarioWare Replacer?

EDIT: Just got back from testing Lylat's ledges...
The problem with Lylat's ledges isnt that the stage tilts, it's that the sweetspot is somewhere above the actual ledge. The tilting just aggravates the problem.
As Falco, aiming for the bottom of the tiny wall near the edge is just plain suicidal. The sweetspot range doesnt go down that far. However, lining up the middle of your body with the plane of the stage, then phantasming and holding toward the stage guarantees ledgegrabs, unless you didnt factor in the tilt. Attempting a firebird from above is also suicidal if you aim for the bottom of the mini-wall, rather than the grabbable top. However, you must let go of the control stick to grab the ledge - holding in will cause you to pass the ledge, even when going perfectly horizontal.

In other words, know your edges before you bash teh stage

 

[RPGsFTW]

I personally don't like the ideas so far about a few stages:

WarioWare - Very campy, like someone said before. Too campy with its platform layout IMO to be a neutral.

WWR - Big, long, FD. One FD is enough for me, thanks. What's its appeal anyway?

Deadlands - Another FD, but even uglier. I'd prefer it not even be a stage. </FD hate> Again, appeal?

Sky World - Top platform perma-destroyed, middle two breakable, possibly slow regeneration? Also, the left platform breaks into TWO pieces. I think if we kept the LEFT side of it, there'd be less "Cave of Life" effects, because the RIGHT side of the left area platform is a little too close to the middle. After all that, we keep the main bottom, and the moving platform under, and I think it's be great.

       ____     <-Perma Destroyed    
 __         __  <-Breakable (slowed down?) Left side of the two part left area ONLY.

  ________  <-Perma Unhittable
/

    ___   <-Perma Unhittable

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

i think WW should just be kept off to the side on the counters
but if we end up needing one more neutral to make it odd, (or one less)
we'll throw it in...
or take one out
wichever seems better at the time.

im guessing if some of the middle platforms stayed tangible there would be a huge amount of stage spiking going on, and ppl camping to try and cause it to happen

 

[smashbro29]

I know no one likes Hannenbow (Trust me neither do I) but that's not a reason to ban it.

 

[JCaesar]

I know no one likes Hannenbow (Trust me neither do I) but that's not a reason to ban it.

No but circle-camping is a pretty good reason.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

i remember way back, in the vBrawl stage legality discussion thread, they were thinking about making it legal for doubles...
does that apply here in plus?

 

[Mattnumbers]

Iirc Hanenbow is a CP in doubles officially in vBrawl.

And stingers, all you said was that WW hurts some characters like ROB, and you never even gave a real example of WHY. I've read the entire thread, but I might have missed a post so if I'm wrong I'm sorry but I'm pretty sure you just said "WW is really bad for some characters, like ROB" which isn't exactly a sound counter-argument.

Also I don't like FD at all but I really enjoyed Deadlands, I consider it about as separate from FD as BF, SV, and PS2 are, so it's not breaking any CPs that aren't already broken.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

My only real opinion on counterpicks: Rainbow Cruise is sexy.

 

[Yeroc]

I fail to see how WW is really "campy" because it's so **** small. There's lots of ways to take advantage of the unique terrain, but that' doesn't make it a too biased level. If you're going to complain that WW is biased against characters who use projectiles then I'll argue that if that's the route we're going to take then we should also remove FD from neutrals because it's heavily biased towards projectile-dependent characters. I already explained where the "neutral" misnomer was derived from, yet people persist.

im guessing if some of the middle platforms stayed tangible there would be a huge amount of stage spiking going on, and ppl camping to try and cause it to happen

I don't really see that as a problem. It's not like it's an inherent design flaw, it's just something different for players to try to take unsuspecting advantage of against one another, like the Sandbag. Both of which I think are very good ideas for fresh stage mechanics. And if you think your opponent will be able to do so better than you, then you could always just destroy the platforms so he can't use them against you.

 

[stingers]

matt please read the thread before you post again. if you're going to pick and choose out of what people say like that...jesus christ

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8226976&postcount=40

 

[RPGsFTW]

im guessing if some of the middle platforms stayed tangible there would be a huge amount of stage spiking going on, and ppl camping to try and cause it to happen

That's actually why I suggest having the right side of the left area platform staying broke. That right side piece is above part of the middle allowing more "Cave of Life" effects, but with only the left side of the left platform, people have more space above them to get launched without worry of infinite teching options. And of course those two platforms, the left area's left platform, and the only right side platform, could also be made to regenerate slowly, which I think would be really cool.

I'm really liking ^that idea for Sky World right now.

About WarioWare: I do not find it a "unique" enough stage to not prevent it from being a CP. It's not just projectile spam that can be annoying, but the hit and run tactics I'd say. There aren't many, If ANY, legal-esque stages that have two vertical platforms above both edges. A Snake could easily camp WarioWare by staying in a crawl pose at the bottom of either corner, throwing out grenades and Utilts with little to no worries. WarioWare's campy factor is MUCH bigger than FD's IMHO.

 

[Mattnumbers]

If you can't stop a snake from doing that on WW what makes you able to stop him when he does that on Battlefield?

 

[RPGsFTW]

Battlefield has one platform above Snake. That one platform is also higher than WarioWares', from what I remember. The one less platform is one less obstacle on your way to hitting the Snake. Battlefield's platforms are just set up in an easier to get around way.

If anything, I'd expect to say that of Yoshi's Island (Barwl).

 

[Alphatron]

I thought another one of Warioware's problems was the ridiculous platform juggles and that how trying to get down to the ground was like playing space invaders. Ivysuar ***** there with little effort.

 

[Mattnumbers]

........am I missing something? Because WW platforms are completely fall-thorough, they only affect projectiles going through them, how does that make it impossible to approach?

BF platforms are slightly lower than WW platforms iirc, so your correct in saying that.

 

[JCaesar]

Yes platforms are fall-through, but you can't fall through while doing an aerial or airdodge. Hence, if you want to pass through the platform, you have to leave yourself open, and it is very easy to punish.

 

[Mattnumbers]

The warioware platforms are higher up than BF, you can still approach from any direction except vertically, you just have to do SH approaches instead of FJ approaches

 

[Alphatron]

^Which makes you predictable by nuetering your approach methods.

 

[RPGsFTW]

^Which makes you predictable by nuetering your approach methods.

^Exactly.

I think that if WarioWare was wider, like Dreamland 64, then maybe the double verticle platforms on both ends wouldn't really matter since there'd be a bigger opening through the middle. But currently, WarioWare does not seem to make a really balanced neutral stage, at all.

Great CP for Snake/Ivy probably then, lol.

 

[JCaesar]

It's fantastic for Squirtle. Uthrow -> uair kills most characters at like 70, not to mention he can juggle all day and it's so hard to escape because of the platform layout.

 

[Shadic]

^Exactly.

I think that if WarioWare was wider, like Dreamland 64, then maybe the double verticle platforms on both ends wouldn't really matter since there'd be a bigger opening through the middle. But currently, WarioWare does not seem to make a really balanced neutral stage, at all.

Great CP for Snake/Ivy probably then, lol.

We need a working stage size modifier code.

 

[MK26]

Everybody is saying "so-and-so does great on warioware, due to X and Y". Who does poor there?

 

[krazyzyko]

There are at least around 30 stages in the subspace emissary that they could be moved to be used on the multiplayer mode. (I hope)

Also you could use the 3 parts of castle siege and make them 3 different standard stages.
And you can make a motionless Lylat cruise and turn it into a starter stage.

 

[Mattnumbers]

^Which makes you predictable by nuetering your approach methods.

Limiting approach from ONE direction isn't exactly a huge problem, if it was then BF wouldn't be neutral. BF even has a platform that's a bit further down.

Although it would be cool to stretch the middle of the stage a bit.

 

[BurningCharizard]

Why don't we just make 40 clones of Final Destination and replace all of the other stages with them while keeping the original stages' music?

 

[Mattnumbers]

Because Final Destination doesn't have platforms?

I think we should make 40 battlefields instead.
lol

 

[Alphatron]

Everybody is saying "so-and-so does great on warioware, due to X and Y". Who does poor there?

People who are easily juggled or don't juggle well.

 

[Shadic]

Because Final Destination doesn't have platforms?

I think we should make 40 battlefields instead.
lol

Screw Battlefield, everything needs to be Smashville.

 

[BurningCharizard]

Because Final Destination doesn't have platforms?

I think we should make 40 battlefields instead.
lol

or 40 Hanenbows

 

[Mattnumbers]

or 40 Hanenbows

HYESZ!
/signed

 

[BurningCharizard]

You know, instead of further mangling the existing stages, we could just build legal stages in the Stage Builder with the platform variety and layouts people want.

 

[Mattnumbers]

But most people don't see it as mangling.

Also Custom Stages are all the way on the third screen, and choosing which ones should be on random is kind clunky.

 

[BurningCharizard]

Don't tell me there are people too lazy to click through more than one screen.

 

[MK26]

People who are easily juggled or don't juggle well.

3 examples plox

 

[Alphatron]

3 examples plox

Zelda, ROB, Meta Knight to an extent.