Brawl+ Stage legality discussion

[FrozenHobo]

pirate ship wouldn't be a neutral even if it was frozen and the water was removed. its size, platforms, and shape make it a CP.


i would go through your list and tell you how stupid most of your suggestions were, but i don't feel like going back repeating most of what maestro said

 

[Plum]

No way PS1 is neutral, even with a non wall windmill.
That stage has way too many issues, even if they are only temporary to be considered neutral...
Lylat is far more neutral; only problem that has is the tilting level.

 

[stingers]

you're applying arbitrary numbers to something for no reason. just let the game play out how it's gonna play out.

i don't want to "make neutrals instead of CPs", I want to make all the stages fair. ****, i even said Skyworld should be a CP after the changes I suggested, do you even read? christtttttttttt

"stages having gimmicks is what makes different characters do better on certain stages, moreso than platform layout" can you please explain this line more because atm it just looks like a filler sentence to look like your post has more meaning to it then it really does

 

[Mattnumbers]

PS1 was neutral in Melee though, and is only CP now because of the windmill.....

Although I would rather have Deadlands and WW than Lylat and PS1

EDIT: Stingers, I didn't mean to say stage layout there, I meant to say having a couple different platforms that really don't change anything. An actual gimmick such as having hazards or being asymetrical typically makes more varied matchups on a given stage.

 

[stingers]

PS1 is smaller then it was in melee and the sides are different

 

[SymphonicSage12]

All stages fair=boring

recoveries EZ mode=boring

no ledge game depth=boring


we're adding uniqueness to make the game FUN. After all, I'm pretty sure games are intended for ENTERTAINMENT. God, **** you, every stage being equally fair is NOT fun. It's boring as hell and makes me want my $60 back. So shut the **** up.

 

[stingers]

sage can't win without his useless gimmicks xfd

get the **** over yourself. don't say **** to me, ever again.

 

[FrozenHobo]

there's no reason WW shouldn't be neutral except for the side boundaries.

DL is too long to be neutral, but definitely CP.

Lyat would be neutral if it wouldn't tilt

PS1 wasn't a universal neutral. some regions had it set to CP in melee and even if we switch the windmill out the stage would still wind up being a CP.

 

[Mattnumbers]

there's no reason WW shouldn't be neutral except for the side boundaries.

DL is too long to be neutral, but definitely CP.

Lyat would be neutral if it wouldn't tilt

PS1 wasn't a universal neutral. some regions had it set to CP in melee and even if we switch the windmill out the stage would still wind up being a CP.

Really I think if they gave DL a fairly low ceiling it would be Neutral, and I think it's even possibly neutral without any blast line changes.

Lylat is just a stage I hate, I don't even ever go to it any more so I'm not sure exactly how much and how often it tilts and whether it's enough to not be neutral

EDIT: There are 4 we KNOW are neutrals

FD
BF
PS2
Smashville

Then we have like 5 that people argue into neutral a lot
PS1
WW
Yoshi's (most of the time it's neutral)
Deadlands
Lylat

Now, if we add MORE neutrals, were going to have a lot of argument.

Although another solution would be to just have a list of a certain amount of neutrals for a TO to pick 7 of (or maybe 5)

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Well, all stages being neutral is just dumb to begin with. Sakurai did get at least one thing right: fun stages.

Which is why I love Rainbow Cruise. It's very enjoyable to me, and I love the "gimmicks" of it. And yet, it is still balanced enough to make it a CP.

And yet, in your eyes, the best idea for this stage is just to freeze it at the ship part.

That would be more neutral, yes. But it would also be insanely boring, and I'm sure its popularity would drop.

So who peed in your Cheerios today? I'm just saying that opinions can't be wrong, but they CAN be stupid. Yours is one of those. Basically, you're saying that all stages should be equally fair. Yes, because 41 Final Destinations would be VERY entertaining.

The counterpick systems exists to make tourneys more interesting. Even the most hardcore melee and brawl enthusiasts to play on FD or Battlefield ALL the time. They pick counterpicks that have gimmicks, but are still fair enough, and mix things up because they are more enjoyable to play on.

Sure, I love pancakes, but having them EVERY day with the EXACT same plate and the EXACT same clothes and the EXACT same coffee would make me want to go strangle myself. (In no way am I saying that I'd strangle myself over brawl, that would just be lame)

 

[FrozenHobo]

Lylat is just a stage I hate, I don't even ever go to it any more so I'm not sure exactly how much and how often it tilts and whether it's enough to not be neutral

well, you need to remember that the list doesn't just revolve around your personal preferences for stages. just because you don't like a stage doesn't meant it should just be thrown to the side.

same goes for stingers suggestion to move Pictochat to counter/banned. there is absolutely nothing wrong with PC as a CP. it was a perfect CP in vBrawl and is still a fine CP in B+. just because you don't like it doesn't mean it should be moved to counter/banned.

everyone has personal preferences for stages. that doesn't mean they should impose those opinions on the entire community.

 

[Mattnumbers]

I know, I was saying that I can't argue about whether it's neutral or not because I don't play on it enough.

 

[stingers]

So who peed in your Cheerios today? I'm just saying that opinions can't be wrong, but they CAN be stupid. Yours is one of those. Basically, you're saying that all stages should be equally fair. Yes, because 41 Final Destinations would be VERY entertaining.

Really

I'm saying we should have 41 Final Destinations

Well okay

Thanks for your input, SymphonicSage12

 

[MK26]

Lylat is just a stage I hate, I don't even ever go to it any more so I'm not sure exactly how much and how often it tilts and whether it's enough to not be neutral

EDIT: There are 4 we KNOW are neutrals

FD
BF
PS2
Smashville

Then we have like 5 that people argue into neutral a lot
PS1
WW
Yoshi's (most of the time it's neutral)
Deadlands
Lylat

Simple. Leave Mansion the way it is, make WarioWare, Yoshi's and Lylat neutral, and PS1 cp.

Sure, Lylat tilts. No, that's not nearly enough to make it cp. If you feel like being ultra-conservative, stick with the 4 undisputables + yoshi's, but that's going way too far imo.

The real question here should be whether or not Norfair, Japes, and Greens are cp material. At this point in time, every other somewhat questionable stage is clear cut cp (Picto) or banned (Corneria, Big Blue, MK 1-1).

 

[FrozenHobo]

Well, all stages being neutral is just dumb to begin with. Sakurai did get at least one thing right: fun stages.

Which is why I love Rainbow Cruise. It's very enjoyable to me, and I love the "gimmicks" of it. And yet, it is still balanced enough to make it a CP.

And yet, in your eyes, the best idea for this stage is just to freeze it at the ship part.

That would be more neutral, yes. But it would also be insanely boring, and I'm sure its popularity would drop.

So who peed in your Cheerios today? I'm just saying that opinions can't be wrong, but they CAN be stupid. Yours is one of those. Basically, you're saying that all stages should be equally fair. Yes, because 41 Final Destinations would be VERY entertaining.

The counterpick systems exists to make tourneys more interesting. Even the most hardcore melee and brawl enthusiasts to play on FD or Battlefield ALL the time. They pick counterpicks that have gimmicks, but are still fair enough, and mix things up because they are more enjoyable to play on.

Sure, I love pancakes, but having them EVERY day with the EXACT same plate and the EXACT same clothes and the EXACT same coffee would make me want to go strangle myself. (In no way am I saying that I'd strangle myself over brawl, that would just be lame)

chill man. ****. we aren't saying make every stage neutral, but if we can make one more competitive, then we will. B+ is built for competitive play. you need to remember that. just because you enjoy gimmicky stages and weird gameplay doesn't always mean it will work in a competative setting.

now, as far as stages like RC, theres no reason to change it because its still a fine CP as is. stages like spear pillar, however, have the potential to be great CPs. so, what do we do? we take a stage that otherwise would go in counter/banned and make a CP. its the idea of taking stages that don't currently work in the competitive scene and then make them viable for tourney play.

i already said it but i'll repeat myself: just because you have preferences to how you play doesn't mean you should for those opinions on the rest of the community. you like gimmicks, B+ is designed for competition. somewhere in there you're going to find some discrepancies in opinions.

 

[CloneHat]

Lylat is somewhere between a starter and a cp.

The edges suck for lots of characters.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Simple. Leave Mansion the way it is, make WarioWare, Yoshi's and Lylat neutral, and PS1 cp.

Sure, Lylat tilts. No, that's not nearly enough to make it cp. If you feel like being ultra-conservative, stick with the 4 undisputables + yoshi's, but that's going way too far imo.

But different people want different things is the problem. Personally I think Deadlands is more neutral than Lylat, and I also think that the more Brawl+ exclusive neutrals we have, the better we will look to people who don't play Brawl+ (yet).

Although as I said, I don't play Lylat too much so I'm not completely sure how often it tips and how much it hurts certain characters.

 

[FrozenHobo]

have we tried freezing lylat to see if that could stop the tilting? that would make it a fine neutral.

 

[stingers]

leave the tilting, it makes it a good cp against chars that rely on tight autocancels and cgers...

we don't need lylat to be neutral

 

[Mattnumbers]

It would probably look ******** though, since it has a dynamic background. Is it possible to only freeze the movement of the stage?

EDIT: and I actually agree that it should just be left alone.

 

[MK26]

Lylat is somewhere between a starter and a cp.

The edges suck for lots of characters.

then...im just good at sweetspotting on lylat, i suppose. I've never had a problem, not even with fox/falco

And the better phrase is "we dont need lylat to be frozen to be neutral". Lrn2 use/abuse the tilting, and not just get annoyed by it

 

[Yeroc]

Holy crap stongertron. Flame much? Try not treating people like ******* and maybe they won't be angry with you.

My quick two cents:

I really really like ph00t's Skyworld idea. Just one perma cloud sounds like an awesome idea, and keeps enough of the original flavor of the level.

Norfair and Picto: Being CP in vBrawl gives them hefty weight for being CP in Brawl+. This game is supposed to be Brawl, but with better everything, which IMO should also mean more viable stages, not less.

Waiting Room: This stage is WTFawesome. Falco's not only good because of lasers. He can survive well enough here, and the sandbag makes for incredible strategic positioning that's unlike any other stage in any Smash game period. Camera's not bad IMO, and though I don't recall any zoom issues, intuitive character position determination is a valuable skill to have.

The original basis for a neutral stage was supposed to be a stage that didn't favor one character or small group of characters over any other. Well, when we (the original Melee BRoom) decided upon that I can safely say the Melee metagame was grossly undeveloped. It's really kinda laughable how badly we failed at that. So now, "neutral" more or less stands for basic stage designs without too many interfering attributes. I think WW certainly qualifies for that standard, and Waiting Room might as well. I'd be inclined to consider Lylat for that as well, but I've seen first hand how much the edges can affect characters, so it's just pushed over the edge for me.

I'm sure I can think of more, but I'll do it later.

 

[stingers]

i get soooooo mad when i see stupid things

things i disagree with heavily and cannot see the reason why anyone would ever support the other option

i'm a terrible devils advocate

sorry

 

[leafgreen386]

See, I would actually be in support of making lylat stay in the horizontal position at all times with no tilting. Note that this does not mean freezing it. In fact, freezing it can result in the stage loading tilted one way or the other, and then staying like that for the rest of the match. It would have to be done through another method, but it has a really unique platform layout (three platforms side by side), and I think it would be awesome if we could solidify that as a true neutral.

My ideal starter list actually looks something like this:

FD
BF
Smashville
PS2
WW
Deadlands (slightly shrunken boundaries perhaps)
Lylat (fixed tilting)

This gives a good variety of starters in only 7 stages without any being too crazy.

 

[Mattnumbers]

See, I would actually be in support of making lylat stay in the horizontal position at all times with no tilting. Note that this does not mean freezing it. In fact, freezing it can result in the stage loading tilted one way or the other, and then staying like that for the rest of the match. It would have to be done through another method, but it has a really unique platform layout (three platforms side by side), and I think it would be awesome if we could solidify that as a true neutral.

My ideal starter list actually looks something like this:

FD
BF
Smashville
PS2
WW
Deadlands (slightly shrunken boundaries perhaps)
Lylat (fixed tilting)

This gives a good variety of starters in only 7 stages without any being too crazy.

No Yoshi's Island?

 

[leafgreen386]

No Yoshi's Island?

Ah, I knew I was forgetting something. *sigh*

The problem is if you want to lean toward making the starters more fair, you end up with a bunch of similar stages. But if you want to keep them more varied (while obviously still mostly fair), you end up having to cut some of the more simplistic stages, which results in stupid things like having both lylat and WW on the list whereas either SV or FD isn't. If you want to do both, you end up with a ton of neutrals.

So... =/

 

[Mattnumbers]

7 would be better than 9, but I don't think 9 would be TOO bad. There could even be a rule where besides the base 4 (FD BF SV PS2) the TO picks the other 3 stages out of the remaining possible neutrals.

Or we could change the rule so that you can ban two stages instead of one.

 

[leafgreen386]

7 would be better than 9, but I don't think 9 would be TOO bad. There could even be a rule where besides the base 4 (FD BF SV PS2) the TO picks the other 3 stages out of the remaining possible neutrals.

Or we could change the rule so that you can ban two stages instead of one.

Two neutrals, four CPs, or one neutral and two CPs?

Sounds like a bit much to keep track of during a game, with up to 8 bans flying around lol

 

[MK26]

wait...are people seriously considering brawl yoshi's a cp?

Final D
Battlefield
Smashville
PS2
Yoshi's
Lylat
WarioWare (singles)/WWR (doubles)

What's so hard about that?

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

yeah, i think WW is too small for doubles
and the sandbag issues and camera problems on WWR can all be resolved in a doubles match with all the players around

If we can freeze lylat wihtout freezing the background. im up for it~

and +Deadlands to the list if we have it?

 

[Shadic]

God, **** you, every stage being equally fair is NOT fun. It's boring as hell and makes me want my $60 back. So shut the **** up.

So who peed in your Cheerios today?

Does irony escape you? People ignore your angry, low-level blathering for a reason.

As I see it:
Neutrals:
Battlefield
Final Destination
Yoshi's Island
Pokestadium 2
Smashville
WarioWare (singles)/Wifi Waiting Room (doubles)

Counterpicks:
Delfino
Luigi's Mansion (Can haz Deadlands?)
Mario Circuit (Expand the horizontal boundaries, it's a nice stage)
Halberd
Lylat


And if we could get Skyworld fixed like I mentioned earlier, make that a Neutral.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

Neutral:
WarioWare (singles)/Wifi Waiting Room (doubles)
CP:
Wifi-WR(singles)
Banned:
WarioWare(doubles)

am i right?

just on the subject of those stages...

 

[Shadic]

Yeah, basically.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

O.o

I still don't see it. I was playing today and I honestly can't figure out what makes WFWR any more of a counterpick than final destination (as far as I'm aware, the sandbag seriously ****s with what, one (falco), at most two or three (samus? link?), and I am not seeing the problem with the camera or the size; at worse just edit the camera a little to fix the problem.

Also, wasn't WW decided on as a counterpick due to the small size destroying projectile campers and allowing certain chars to destroy most others there?

 

[stingers]

people seemed to ignore every flaw that warioware has and wanted it to be neutral just because it's different from vbrawl @.@

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Hey guys, listen to Stingers, he's right... I tried this with a friend. Chars like marth or DK become absolutely ******** there...

 

[Shadic]

I think it would be better if the boundaries were expanded (Yes, more) and the camera were allowed to zoom out more. Then it's just a small Battlefield you can't go under with different platforms.

 

[stingers]

No...it's not...if you say that you really don't know what you're talking about

 

[Shadic]

No...it's not...if you say that you really don't know what you're talking about

Care to explain, or just accuse? You're not very good at backing up retorts, here.
It's a small, platform-intensive stage that's a disadvantage of projectile spammers, and advantage to characters with larger, or disjointed hitboxes. How is that different than Battlefield?

 

[stingers]

I already did...read the thread before posting