Brawl+ Stage Legality Discussion: Brawl+ 7.0 Gold Discussion (Go Discuss Everything!)

[The Cape]

Sandbag does not obtain a hitbox when hit, so that idea is out.

Secondly, moving sandbag brings the risk of getting hit by the projectiles on the other side. Its also extremely slow and tedious and WILL happen in high level play. On top of all that, the boundaries are huge and you will be lucky to take one stock off. After your one minute struggle getting sandbag to the other side of the stage Fox or Falco side Bs through you, and retreats with Lasers. Have fun fighting THAT for eight minutes with your perfect anti spam sandbag.

Perfect example of stage assisted spam: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJ8l-XQQ1Yg

So why would we settle for a stage like WiFi Waiting Room, when we can have SSE Jungle that supports the same style of play, but has more options to fight it.

 

[FrozenHobo]

VINDICATION!!!!

anyway, have we looked at any more SSE stages? the factory stage that was recently done is actually pretty good, even though the top-left and top-right have blocks just off the screen that can stop your trajectory...

downloads here: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9067164&postcount=113

 

[SaltyKracka]

Sandbag does not obtain a hitbox when hit, so that idea is out.

Secondly, moving sandbag brings the risk of getting hit by the projectiles on the other side. Its also extremely slow and tedious and WILL happen in high level play. On top of all that, the boundaries are huge and you will be lucky to take one stock off. After your one minute struggle getting sandbag to the other side of the stage Fox or Falco side Bs through you, and retreats with Lasers. Have fun fighting THAT for eight minutes with your perfect anti spam sandbag.

Perfect example of stage assisted spam: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJ8l-XQQ1Yg

So why would we settle for a stage like WiFi Waiting Room, when we can have SSE Jungle that supports the same style of play, but has more options to fight it.

Could it be possible to edit Sandbag to obtain a hitbox when hit? I'm also not seeing you prove your claim that Sandbag causes camping. If the Fox/Falco does what you claim they'll do, they would've done it anyways, and probably be much less punishable and rack more damage for it. SideB is punishable when predicted, and Sandbag or no sandbag, anybody who can't deal with that tactic in the first place would lose to it anyways.

Also, variety. And what in the **** was that Melee vid supposed to prove? That you're the master of irrelevancies?

 

[VietGeek]

I think the factory stage is way too huge as-is, it's roughly Dreamland 64 size (in width), has a distracting on-off light hazard (gimmicky, gets in the way somewhat, but honestly just annoying).

Also it has enough platforms that a pseudo circle camp is very possible (think Falco).

Until we can get a reliable way to customize stage models, I personally don't find many of the SSE stages to be appealing enough.

 

[FrozenHobo]

I think the factory stage is way too huge as-is, it's roughly Dreamland 64 size (in width), has a distracting on-off light hazard (gimmicky, gets in the way somewhat, but honestly just annoying).

Also it has enough platforms that a pseudo circle camp is very possible (think Falco).

Until we can get a reliable way to customize stage models, I personally don't find many of the SSE stages to be appealing enough.

the one with the 3 platforms and the slanted ground? i didn't see any flashing lights... i think we're thinking of different stages.

edit: also the grasslands stage might be good too.

 

[The Cape]

VINDICATION!!!!

anyway, have we looked at any more SSE stages? the factory stage that was recently done is actually pretty good, even though the top-left and top-right have blocks just off the screen that can stop your trajectory...

downloads here: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9067164&postcount=113

The only problem with Factory is (or so I heard) you cant grab the right side edge?

 

[lord karn]

Ok, so I ban WiFi waiting room against projectile camping characters like those listed above.

So they pick SSE jungle and run away and shoot a good deal more **** for me to approach.

Counter picking stages is about hurting your opponents strategy or assisting your own. If you have multiple stages that firmly lean towards one type of strategy than you cannot effectively ban a counterpick.

In this situation it basically comes down to:
1. Do I want to fight projectiles with platforms
or
2. Do I want to fight projectiles with a sandbag?

Its the same with Halberd and Delphino.

Halberd is Delphino with different layout, active hazards, and a smaller platform.
Both stages make spacies recovering hard and assists characters like MK, DDD, and Kirby on sharking quite easily. It comes down to the same strategy, which stage do you think you will get ***ged less on?

Delphino is the better choice because the primary platform is bigger and it has no active hazards. The water is minor since its easy to avoid as a passive hazard.

SSE Jungle is the better choice because the platforms give more options to approach or fight spam, while the sandbag offers one, and that one option does not even effectively deal with the spam to allow for approach, but just creates a counter approaching situation.

Fox or Falco shooting lasers from one side of sandbag means that you cant approach without taking damage, putting them at a large advantage. On SSE Jungle you at least have options against it.

Its not about what stages are legal, its about what strategies you can effectively use against your opponent and how your opponent feels they can use them against you. You use the neutral because the stages have few hazards and are all straight forward to get a feel for their strategy. From that you can base your ban and your CP to hopefully hurt their strategy or boost yours over theirs. That is where the strategic part of CPing comes in.

I agree with this post. What is the point of having any stage bans if there are multiple levels that serve very similar purposes? From a competitive standpoint, there wouldn't be any. Why ban any level when they can just take you to the other level their strategy/character ***** on?

I suppose you could say we could remove bans, but then we would either have to restrict the counterpicks even more, perhaps even to just neutrals, or otherwise we would have a game where the counterpicker just gains a ridiculous advantage.

The only point of argument remains is which stages promote the same characters/strategies and which of those levels is the best to keep in.

I haven't played waiting room enough to know if it is similar to SSE: Jungles. However, I see no way how the sandbag could actually prevent camping. If someone is being camped, they could stop taking damage, but if they are losing the match they still have to approach. Hiding behind the sandbag does nothing. Otherwise, the level only supports camping from characters like ROB that have projectiles that can go through the sandbag. Seems pretty dumb to me.

 

[FrozenHobo]

uh, i should test that, cape... i can't remember if that was the case or not... i know eternal yoshi "fixed" a bunch of stages, but i don't know what that includes besides boundaries.

 

[MK26]

Sandbag does not obtain a hitbox when hit, so that idea is out.

Secondly, moving sandbag brings the risk of getting hit by the projectiles on the other side. Its also extremely slow and tedious and WILL happen in high level play. On top of all that, the boundaries are huge and you will be lucky to take one stock off. After your one minute struggle getting sandbag to the other side of the stage Fox or Falco side Bs through you, and retreats with Lasers. Have fun fighting THAT for eight minutes with your perfect anti spam sandbag.

Perfect example of stage assisted spam: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJ8l-XQQ1Yg

So why would we settle for a stage like WiFi Waiting Room, when we can have SSE Jungle that supports the same style of play, but has more options to fight it.

Theory's all fine and dandy, but show me video proof of WWR being that bad, and I'll concede the point.

 

[The Cape]

Also, variety. And what in the **** was that Melee vid supposed to prove? That you're the master of irrelevancies?

Variety for what?

the Melee video was to demonstrate that a stage can definetly lead to an almost unwinnable strategy. I think Vidjo had banned Rainbow Cruise that set for similar reasons, so Spammerer just went to the stage of the exact similar type and did the same thing. More stage variety will just lead to more opportunities to use a completely unbalanced strategy on your opponent. The more stages you have, the less effective any and all stage bans become. Then it comes down to fighting the stage and not your opponent. If I wanted to fight the stage and not an opponent I would MM myself on Rumble Falls.

Also, its a MELEE video, who gives a ****? Its still smash. It has the same basic strategies in Melee as it does in plus. The specifics are different for sure, but the basics are still the same. More stage variety leads to more fighting stages and less fighting opponents. The stages I listed are the 10 most basic stages you can get with differing strategies, this way you can ban strategies instead of stages. The stage itself should only affect your strategy and not just plain completely **** your character for you for free. That is the issue.

At BtL2 (the last Brawl+ tourney over here) Chibo counterpicked Mansion against me, so I spent most of the match destroying the mansion so I could actually fight him, since he can camp all day inside of it. When I played Vex I counter picked WiFi waiting room against his Marth with Ness since he has trouble KOing because of the walls, but I have D throw to Uair from 0 to 170%. Not to mention I used the sandbag to activate my side B and then send PK thunders over the sangbag to hit him if he tried to approach. The stage is a complete campfest and WILL be camped if money is on the line. It creates a good deal of situations that can be basically unwinnable for certain characters. Stages should not beat the character for you or allow you to have an incredible advantage automatically, it should just assist your basic strategy for fighting them, or weaken theres.

Small stages for breaking up camping, big stages for camping, wide boundaries if you have a good recovery and they dont, close boundaries if you are a killing machine, etc, etc.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Variety for what?

the Melee video was to demonstrate that a stage can definetly lead to an almost unwinnable strategy. I think Vidjo had banned Rainbow Cruise that set for similar reasons, so Spammerer just went to the stage of the exact similar type and did the same thing. More stage variety will just lead to more opportunities to use a completely unbalanced strategy on your opponent. The more stages you have, the less effective any and all stage bans become. Then it comes down to fighting the stage and not your opponent. If I wanted to fight the stage and not an opponent I would MM myself on Rumble Falls.

1. So a stage can lead to an almost impossible matchup? MUST BAN. Owait, Frigate Orpheon and Ganon.
2. If you have overlap in stage type in your stages, that's about the point where you increase the number of stage strikes. MY GOD, it's such a radical solution!

Also, its a MELEE video, who gives a ****? Its still smash. It has the same basic strategies in Melee as it does in plus. The specifics are different for sure, but the basics are still the same. More stage variety leads to more fighting stages and less fighting opponents. The stages I listed are the 10 most basic stages you can get with differing strategies, this way you can ban strategies instead of stages. The stage itself should only affect your strategy and not just plain completely **** your character for you for free. That is the issue.

NO ITEMS, FINAL DESTINATION, FOX ONLY

Stages should not beat the character for you or allow you to have an incredible advantage automatically, it should just assist your basic strategy for fighting them, or weaken theres.

And here I thought that was the whole point of CPs.

 

[iLink]

Why would Lylat be CP/Ban and not just CP? RC is a lot lamer then Lylat or even Frigate.

 

[Alphatron]

If more SSE stages are considered, then the stages that Eternal Yoshi has done so far would make very nice candidates. Used with Phantom Wing's code to allow 9 extra stages of course. This stage for example.

Brawlbox can also be used to fix the borders on WWR is the boundaries are a huge issues. As for Frigate, I've never seen the stage randomly kill. I was aware that where you ended up when the stage flipped was based on where you were beforehand. It's never random to my knowledge, and the stage gives you a warning before actually doing anything.

Also, I can't really see the comparison between Halberd and Delfino, sharking aside. But I see what Cape means.

It seems that Spear Pillar can't be saved for the time being either. I liked the ideas for breaking part of the top platform and eliminating the Cave of Life.

 

[JCaesar]

Well this isn't exactly what I had in mind. The thing I said I was working on with Cape for the stages was something else entirely.

Might as well post my own thoughts for a standard stagelist.

Starter

Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Pokemon Stadium 2
Yoshi's Island Brawl (singles)/SSE Jungle (doubles)

Counterpick

Yoshi's Island Brawl (doubles)
Wifi Waiting Room (doubles)
Wario Ware (singles)
Brinstar (singles)
Lylat Cruise
Pokemon Stadium 1
Castle Siege
Halberd
Delfino Plaza
Frigate Orpheon
Rainbow Cruise

2 bans.

Still on the fence about Skyworld, Luigi's Mansion, Pictochat, and Port Town Aero Drive. I think they're basically fine competitively (though that might be proven wrong in the future). I just don't think the community is ready for them, especially newcomers from vBrawl.

Most of this list is done with newcomers in mind. We don't want to alienate vBrawl or Melee players who might be inclined to try it out, but then see a crazy stagelist and walk away.

This is likely what I will use for Hackfest 5.0 and Pound 4 unless that other thing we were working on pans out, or I'm convinced otherwise, but I'm pretty stubborn and I want my tourneys to go well.

 

[Plum]

1. So a stage can lead to an almost impossible matchup? MUST BAN. Owait, Frigate Orpheon and Ganon.
2. If you have overlap in stage type in your stages, that's about the point where you increase the number of stage strikes. MY GOD, it's such a radical solution!

And here I thought that was the whole point of CPs.

Certain stages can create hard matchups and still be fine for competitive play. There are plenty of matchups out there that are completely dependent on the stage, and again that's fine.

When a stage creates the same type of matchup regardless of the characters used then it IS a problem. I love WWR, and I think it is a fun stage, but I'm only going to play it in friendlies. Competitively it creates ungodly long matches that nobody wants to sit through.
The stage should be banned on pure size alone. Put it this way, TO's only have so much time to run an event, and when you see matches consistently timing out purely because of the stage then there IS a problem. The stage is great in theory, but in practice it does do the opposite of its intention. The idea is to stop camping, and it stops one kind but creates a whole new form. It's seriously like playing Brawl on that stage.
In friendlies I find it to be a great stage because people stay away from gaying the **** out of the stage, but Cape is exactly right. When money is on the line players will do whatever it takes to win. They have, and will use the stage to its absolute gayest potential if it means winning.
The stage creates a foreign play style. A stage simply shouldn't do that.

A CP is there to give you a potentially favorable matchup, NOT change the way the game is played. Have you seen Patience by Bowyer? WWR creates gameplay just like that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zPMhGvCyVg (GAY as hell, awesome music)

If creating a situation where your opponent simply can't win, and you win by default is the best option then a competitive player is going to do it.
Play to win or gtfo.

 

[Swordplay]

I really agree with capes list.

In my opinion. The single best CP stage is brinstar. WW now that it is fixed is defiantly a CP. I was disappointed PS1 didn't make it on there but with PS2, PS1 lost some use. I hate RC but thats because of the characters I use. Its really a great CP stage, its like the exact opposite of brinstar in my opinion. RC hurts tethers and poor recoveries as much as brinstar helps them. Most tethers also have some sort of range and I really feel brinstars platform layout helps characters with a range advantage because they can poke through where as RC is focused more around mobility. (In honesty BS and RC will get strike a lot just because they are really good CPs and people may not want to go there. I've seen that before.)

SSE Jungle is okay I guess. I'm hesitant about it but whatever. YI I would really like to see as a CP as I and many other people lean away from it. For some reason its always striked when I play but we need 5 neutrals and I don't see anything that could fill it.

Delfino is my only real beef. I understand capes arguments about delfino and respect him. I also understand the halberd argument. I actually think both of these should be up to the TO. I would rather see another SSE stage come and pick up the slack for the last CP. Either that, of make a SSE stage a neutral and move YI/Final (hopefully Yoshi's) down to CP.

 

[Shadic]

And here I thought that was the whole point of CPs.

The point of CPs is to give a reasonable advantage. Not make it so the opponent is screwed.

NO ITEMS, FINAL DESTINATION, FOX ONLY

Argument void.


I think the Cape Stagelist is decent. I despise Rainbow Road, however. Also, fixed Skyworld should be a Neutral. (Needs no hitstun platform, though.) Also, I understand Warioware being a counterpick, but I'd prefer it as a Neutral. Oh well.

 

[FrozenHobo]

Certain stages can create hard matchups and still be fine for competitive play. There are plenty of matchups out there that are completely dependent on the stage, and again that's fine.

When a stage creates the same type of matchup regardless of the characters used then it IS a problem. I love WWR, and I think it is a fun stage, but I'm only going to play it in friendlies. Competitively it creates ungodly long matches that nobody wants to sit through.
The stage should be banned on pure size alone. Put it this way, TO's only have so much time to run an event, and when you see matches consistently timing out purely because of the stage then there IS a problem. The stage is great in theory, but in practice it does do the opposite of its intention. The idea is to stop camping, and it stops one kind but creates a whole new form. It's seriously like playing Brawl on that stage.
In friendlies I find it to be a great stage because people stay away from gaying the **** out of the stage, but Cape is exactly right. When money is on the line players will do whatever it takes to win. They have, and will use the stage to its absolute gayest potential if it means winning.
The stage creates a foreign play style. A stage simply shouldn't do that.

A CP is there to give you a potentially favorable matchup, NOT change the way the game is played. Have you seen Patience by Bowyer? WWR creates gameplay just like that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zPMhGvCyVg (GAY as hell, awesome music)

If creating a situation where your opponent simply can't win, and you win by default is the best option then a competitive player is going to do it.
Play to win or gtfo.

its like you're just running your tongue over my balls over and over... vindication feels so goooooood....

 

[Plum]

its like you're just running your tongue over my balls over and over... vindication feels so goooooood....

I still love the stage, and I think it can be competitive with the right fixes.
Your complaints way back when were purely the sandbag; my complaints right now are largely based on the size. The size of the stage, when combined with the sandbag creates the highly campy gameplay. If the stage was how you wanted it however long ago it was we would have an absurdly huge plainly flat stage with its own set of big problems.

IMO the stage would be fine if the size of the main platform itself was much smaller. Like Smashville or Battlefield sized. It would also need reduced boundaries of course. The ceiling needs to be much smaller for one thing. Its all just theory, but I feel that a lot of the stages severe camping issues would be somewhat fixed with a much smaller main platform and better blastlines.

Characters would still be able to take advantage of the sandbag in favorable ways, but at the very least you are dying at reasonable percents instead of the ridiculous 200%'s and up you see now.

 

[MK26]

Well this isn't exactly what I had in mind. The thing I said I was working on with Cape for the stages was something else entirely.

wait...what?

 

[FrozenHobo]

point being, stage is still ridiculous and plays as campy as i predicted it would.

 

[SaltyKracka]

point being, stage is still ridiculous and plays as campy as i predicted it would.

FD.

10chars

 

[The Cape]

So if WiFi waiting room and FD both play campy as ****.

Why do we want two of them?

 

[FrozenHobo]

on the topic of hacking stages to be more balanced, since Pirate Ship is considered a banned stage, would removing the water work as a way to make it more of a CP?

 

[MK26]

So if WiFi waiting room and FD both play campy as ****.

Why do we want two of them?

I see the obvious way out




















Get rid of FD

 

[The Cape]

on the topic of hacking stages to be more balanced, since Pirate Ship is considered a banned stage, would removing the water work as a way to make it more of a CP?

This was an idea for awhile, as was making the water just moon gravity. Both could possibly be done (or we can just make the water there, but not swimmable).

Would need to fix the Catapault (even more so) and the bombs then.

 

[FrozenHobo]

This was an idea for awhile, as was making the water just moon gravity. Both could possibly be done (or we can just make the water there, but not swimmable).

Would need to fix the Catapault (even more so) and the bombs then.

well, this code lowers the water level to bellow the death boundary line:

Pirate Ship Water Level Beta [spunit262]
0554958C C36B0000

a side effect of this is that the bombs will only hit the ship. the other bombs still go, but they home in on the water so they don't effect the fight at all.

i do agree that a weaker catapult would definitely be a necessity with this code.

 

[The Cape]

Bombs do about a third (or less) of their damage. Catapault has weaker KB and hits at a 60 angle instead of the 0 it hits at now.

Water visible, but intangible. Should do it.

 

[Deleted member]

as leader of the MBR, I approve of cape's stage list.

 

[FrozenHobo]

Bombs do about a third (or less) of their damage. Catapault has weaker KB and hits at a 60 angle instead of the 0 it hits at now.

Water visible, but intangible. Should do it.

that sounds good, but are you sure you want the water to remain? the only reason would be to keep the bombs shooting at the water in addition to the ship (which seems unnecessary with the intangible water).

 

[The Cape]

Basically make it to look pretty and all that.

Polish mother ****ers!

 

[Plum]

as leader of the MBR, I approve of cape's stage list.

This **** just got legit. :V

 

[SaltyKracka]

I see the obvious way out




















Get rid of FD

SECOND'D

102's

 

[MK26]

as leader of the MBR, I approve of cape's stage list.

that's, what, 4 of them? wtf?

i think my thread title change is divinely inspired or something, lol

 

[FrozenHobo]

Basically make it to look pretty and all that.

Polish mother ****ers!

you and you're pretty visuals.

but it does sound like a solid idea. and it doesn't seem like it would take too much work either.

 

[The Cape]

that's, what, 4 of them? wtf?

i think my thread title change is divinely inspired or something, lol

And thats the leader too.

Need to change my list anyway (Skyworld isnt on the CP list at all, its on the CP/Ban list)

 

[MK26]

youve got it on both, where do you want it to go

 

[Deleted member]

This **** just got legit. :V

MBR - gets **** done.

 

[The Cape]

Only CP/Ban, even if the floor is fixed.

If the floor isnt fixed that stage needs banned.

 

[Skler]

The Cape's stage list is incredible, it removes the most ****ing random factors while keeping a lot of variety. Well done my good man, well done.