Brawl+ Stage Legality Discussion: Brawl+ 7.0 Gold Discussion (Go Discuss Everything!)

[GHNeko]

DP needs that perma rain because regardless, it still has a walk off that is accessible for a good amount of time.

 

[The Cape]

I looked into the rain last night.

If it could always be raining, then be put at half speed so that the rains would rotate (from ineffective rain, to light rain, to heavy, and back) then it could be a really solid stage. Stay away from the thing on the right side and the little numbered disks do not do a good deal of damage and can help to add a new dimension to play there.

Its a good stage if the walkoff it properly handled.

 

[GHNeko]

PK has a few codes where the rain is always flowing. i don't remember if you can control the flow of the rain like your scenario though.

If not, some rain is better than none.

 

[shanus]

I like the DP constant rain now that we have, although the ganondorf sideB infinite on it is absolutely hilarious.

 

[GHNeko]

Wait. Isn't that Techable? >_>

All forms of murder choke are techable...no?

 

[shanus]

Wait. Isn't that Techable? >_>

All forms of murder choke are techable...no?

I think its because you both slide off and go into fall, but I could be wrong. I honestly haven't tried to see if you tech it and it stops you from sliding off.


but, I haven't tried it. I just remember that hilarious video of naucitos.

 

[The Cape]

When you tech it the rain pushes you off the ledge, as it does the Ganondorf which allows him to get another grab on you.

With good timing it is a true infinite:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdjdPbTGs2A

That is why rotating rain (if possible) would fix that.

Edit: After rewatching, it might be avoidable. Its just silly that Ganon can stall on the strong water with repeated sideB, even without hitting the opponent. I bet there are more things like that too.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

CP/Ban List (for TOs to add other stages)

Mansion
Orpheon
Lylat
Castle Siege
Skyworld (fix hitlag)
Japes
PS1
Halberd

Basically extra stages that could be CPs, but should be decided on by the TO and not be "standard".

wat

Okay wat. Frigate, Lylat, Castle Siege, PS1, and HALBERD??? Halberd is one of the most ridiculously fair CPs I can think of!

I looked into the rain last night.

If it could always be raining, then be put at half speed so that the rains would rotate (from ineffective rain, to light rain, to heavy, and back) then it could be a really solid stage. Stay away from the thing on the right side and the little numbered disks do not do a good deal of damage and can help to add a new dimension to play there.

Its a good stage if the walkoff it properly handled.

I like the DP constant rain now that we have, although the ganondorf sideB infinite on it is absolutely hilarious.

 

[MK26]

lol i forgot to bring up WWR...

and BPC, i feel the same

 

[The Cape]

Cadet, already explained most of those stages on the page after that list.

As for WiFi waiting room. Its just plain HUGE. Its barely a good enough stage for teams and the sandbag, while it can be strategic also leads to more camping than it supposedly stops. Other than that its just a bad FD rip off with humongous boundaries.

 

[Cia]

Starters:
Battlefield (BF)
Final Destination (FD)
Smashville (SV)
Pokemon Stadium 2 (PS2)
Yoshi's Island: Brawl (YI:B)

Counterpick:
Wario Ware (WW)
Brinstar (BS)
Delphino Plaza (DP)
SSE Jungle (SSE)
Rainbow Cruise (RC)

I agree with this post 100%. I feel like pkmn stdm 1 could also be on the CP list tho. but it doesn't matter to me either way.

lol 6,666 posts. raaaape

 

[The Cape]

Yea, Melee backroom getting **** done!

Vanz and Cape 2 guds.


What about PS1 always grass stage with higher ceiling?

Too ****!

 

[MK26]

what about...PS1?

and i just realized theres no Pictochat...Green Greens i can live without (though i think it should be legal :/), but no Picto makes me :sad:

And WWR is perfectly fine lol, wut u smokin? Esp for doubles
You keep using the argument "theres a stage, but theres a slightly better version of the same stage, so theres no need for teh first stage"
thats logic fail if you ask me

EDIT: You have SSE JUNGLE legal but leave out WWR? I'm completely and utterly speechless.

 

[Cia]

what about...PS1?

and i just realized theres no Pictochat...Green Greens i can live without (though i think it should be legal :/), but no Picto makes me :sad:

And WWR is perfectly fine lol, wut u smokin? Esp for doubles
You keep using the argument "theres a stage, but theres a slightly better version of the same stage, so theres no need for teh first stage"
thats logic fail if you ask me

I'm also a huge fan of pictochat, but see that the stage has so many impassable barriers that slow down the action quite a bit and FORCES camping. the hazzards are also a bit over powered and there's nothing worse than losing to someone you shouldn't have because you were in the wrong place when a random drawing spawned.. lol

As for WWR, that's stage is so dumb I can't believe it's even being considered. The over the top wide stage layout, and really wide boundaries makes camping a MUST of that stage. Dedede, Snake, ROB, Bowser etc. live well over 200% and when you think about it, that stage was made to practice and goof around while you wait to start a match. It was made so that you make as many mistakes as you want, or even beat the crap out of that bag, and no one would die. AND THAT STUPID, STUPID sandbag. it just gets in the way causing hit lag and blocking projectiles.

"My strategy for that stage is to go Sonic, jab you, and take ledge. for 8 minutes. It's a legit strategy magnified only by the stupidity of the level. very few projectiles will hit me on the other side and good luck approaching, i'll just dash attack you."

Tournament matches are never about pleasing the crowd and the players do what they must to win, but this stage allows you to abuse the most desperate tactics and pretty much creates a dull, un-inspiring enviroment comparable to that of a vBrawl tournament. Brawl+ is better than that.

 

[GHNeko]

Which is why I've said time and time again, that the boundaries need to be fixed and the stage shrunk.

 

[RPGsFTW]

As for WiFi waiting room. Its just plain HUGE. Its barely a good enough stage for teams and the sandbag, while it can be strategic also leads to more camping than it supposedly stops. Other than that its just a bad FD rip off with humongous boundaries.

Wi-Fi Waiting Room is a terrible stage. It's way too huge for me to ever consider playing on in in a singles CP match. Nor would I wanna team there because of it being a bigger, gayer, FD. =P

And yay at Cape's neutrals. Those are the five that we go by at out weekly tournaments for B+, haha.

 

[The Cape]

Which is why I've said time and time again, that the boundaries need to be fixed and the stage shrunk.

Wouldn't really save the stage anyway.

Sandbag in singles still creates a good deal or really ******** strats as Vanz laid out an example with the Sonic one. In teams the sandbag is just ignored and creates unneeded hitlag which leads to mistiming and is not a good standard of play in that sense. Its a fine stage for friendlies and fun, but should never be considered a tournament legal stage for the reasons that Vanz laid out.

 

[GHNeko]

Than Ban it.

It's a legit CP against projectile heavy characters like Falco, Samus, Diddy, etc.

 

[The Cape]

Than Ban it.

It's a legit CP against projectile heavy characters like Falco, Samus, Diddy, etc.

Ok, so I ban WiFi waiting room against projectile camping characters like those listed above.

So they pick SSE jungle and run away and shoot a good deal more **** for me to approach.

Counter picking stages is about hurting your opponents strategy or assisting your own. If you have multiple stages that firmly lean towards one type of strategy than you cannot effectively ban a counterpick.

In this situation it basically comes down to:
1. Do I want to fight projectiles with platforms
or
2. Do I want to fight projectiles with a sandbag?

Its the same with Halberd and Delphino.

Halberd is Delphino with different layout, active hazards, and a smaller platform.
Both stages make spacies recovering hard and assists characters like MK, DDD, and Kirby on sharking quite easily. It comes down to the same strategy, which stage do you think you will get ***ged less on?

Delphino is the better choice because the primary platform is bigger and it has no active hazards. The water is minor since its easy to avoid as a passive hazard.

SSE Jungle is the better choice because the platforms give more options to approach or fight spam, while the sandbag offers one, and that one option does not even effectively deal with the spam to allow for approach, but just creates a counter approaching situation.

Fox or Falco shooting lasers from one side of sandbag means that you cant approach without taking damage, putting them at a large advantage. On SSE Jungle you at least have options against it.

Its not about what stages are legal, its about what strategies you can effectively use against your opponent and how your opponent feels they can use them against you. You use the neutral because the stages have few hazards and are all straight forward to get a feel for their strategy. From that you can base your ban and your CP to hopefully hurt their strategy or boost yours over theirs. That is where the strategic part of CPing comes in.

 

[RPGsFTW]

Isn't the SSE Jungle a bit big to be a Singles CP? I know the death boundaries were changed, but still. >_>

I <3 Sky World+.

 

[MK26]

Ok, so I ban WiFi waiting room against projectile camping characters like those listed above.

So they pick SSE jungle and run away and shoot a good deal more **** for me to approach.

Counter picking stages is about hurting your opponents strategy or assisting your own. If you have multiple stages that firmly lean towards one type of strategy than you cannot effectively ban a counterpick.

Final Destination and Smashville.

/argument.

 

[FrozenHobo]

PTAD w/ no cars is still not on any of these lists...


also, LMAO at the WBR finally agreeing with my original opinions on sandbag. seriously. i gave the exact reasons why it was a bad idea when you guys first brought it up. go me. XD

 

[Thunderhorse+]

PTAD w/ weakened cars is still not on any of these lists...

Fixed.

As much as I would like to see it on, I was told the reason why even if we fixed/removed cars Port Town would never be a legal stage is because it is simply un-winnable for tether characters. We would have to somehow add ledges to the main platform before it's even considered to be put on the stage list.

Frankly I'd like to see it on there with fixed cars regardless, but then again I want to see Halberd > Delphino (no walk offs/water > temporary walk offs/water, and all active hazards can be seen coming from a mile away and I believe follow a set pattern anyway. Sharking is very easy on both stages), but we both know that's not going to happen.

 

[VietGeek]

frozn i remembered you just hated the sandbag (WITH A FLAMING PASSION), the stage itself has a lot more problems than just that tho =V

also PTAD w/o cars is still not conservative enough =V

the wall has AMAZINGLY CUTE AMOUNTS OF KNOCKBACK AND A LOW ANGLE THAT WILL SEND YOU FLYING WITH GLEE ~^____^~

But who knows, maybe it will be a counterpick after all provided it has nothing else against it other than the fact that it's another anti-tether stage

 

[Revven]

PTAD w/ no cars is still not on any of these lists...

Because the cars aren't the only problem with that stage, the huge wall you come across is another big boon to the stage itself. It causes many problems, for one, the knockback is ridiculous, it semi-spikes you, and can make you trip. It's hard as hell to avoid too.

Also, no cars isn't what most of us feels will do that stage justice as a CP. As far as I'm aware, most people just want the knockback and damage lowered on the cars, not completely remove them. Sure, while we already can remove them temporarily with Eldiran's edit to the stage, there's still that big *** wall and people probably will ***** anyway because it's another "no hazards CP" stage even though it'd still have the floor that does damage and that huge *** wall...

For myself, I'm fine with it either way but, that wall is what's keeping me from putting Eldiran's PTAD on my SD Card.

 

[The Cape]

Final Destination and Smashville.

/argument.

Well by your (lack of) an arguement.

Smashville has a platform
/arguement

 

[MK26]

My point is that there are several stages that are similar, FD and Smashville being two of the closest. Discounting Halberd because of Delfino, or WWR because of SSE Jungle, or PS1 because of PS2, is just...wrong. There's nothing more to say.

EDIT: lol viet

 

[FrozenHobo]

frozn i remembered you just hated the sandbag (WITH A FLAMING PASSION), the stage itself has a lot more problems than just that tho =V

also PTAD w/o cars is still not conservative enough =V

the wall has AMAZINGLY CUTE AMOUNTS OF KNOCKBACK AND A LOW ANGLE THAT WILL SEND YOU FLYING WITH GLEE ~^____^~

But who knows, maybe it will be a counterpick after all provided it has nothing else against it other than the fact that it's another anti-tether stage

you clearly don't remember anything about my arguments. right out of the gate i was saying it would promote camping. i had examples, reasoning, and while most of it was ridiculous, i was proven right in the end. don't blow me off as saying i "just hated sandbag", i had legitimate reasons that the WBR (or at least Cape) has come to agree on.


as for PTAD, i do find the wall a bit annoying, but could it also be possible to just re-route the stage to avoid that part? i know it has several different areas with different paths that it takes, so it should be possible, albeit incredibly frustrating, to remove that route entirely.

 

[GHNeko]

I thought we were increasing the amount of stage bans per player to 2 with the increase of viable stages.

Doing that would allow more stages to go in to CP territory without the worry of having a second stage **** the reason why you banned the first stage.

 

[VietGeek]

you clearly don't remember anything about my arguments. right out of the gate i was saying it would promote camping. i had examples, reasoning, and while most of it was ridiculous, i was proven right in the end. don't blow me off as saying i "just hated sandbag", i had legitimate reasons that the WBR (or at least Cape) has come to agree on.

nope didn't remember any of your arguments. i do however recall u just wanting to remove the sandbag alone when it was first reinstated.

also iirc the stage's borders are artificial...rather it was edited to have a huge ceiling and "small" sides. If we can tweak that line to our liking (I recall the original borders weren't that much more appealing), that'd be lovely.

However (recalling yet another DISTANT memory), I think only Kupo ever understood that crazy code *namedrop*

Rerouting...well, that depends on what sort of counterpick we would like to make PTAD. An Atlantic South Smasher or MBR members is more likely to appeal to a very conservative list that might not even want PTAD on its stagelist while elsewhere and particularly Midwest might want to avoid that effort and instead find a way to edit the current obstacles to just be less ridiculous.

 

[The Cape]

My point is that there are several stages that are similar, FD and Smashville being two of the closest. Discounting Halberd because of Delfino, or WWR because of SSE Jungle, or PS1 because of PS2, is just...wrong.

The platform on smashville completely changes the dynamic of the stage. In terms of play it and FD are not nearly similar enough, not to mention the amount the stage extends below and how they play out recoveries.

PS1 was not discounted due to PS2, it was discounted for other reasons (already explained before)

WWR and SSE jungle have similar strategies and WWR is just plain a bad stage, making it the obvious dismissal.

Also Smashville and FD are neutral stages as they are a flat main platform with X number of other platforms (BF having three, Smashville having one intermittent one, YI having one permanant and two intermittent, etc). Plus the way the walls are structured would directly affect the stage.

I would rather fight against Falco on smashville than FD for example. As Yoshi I would rather play on FD because my recovery would be better. etc etc. The stages are dynamically different and have different strategies. Both are also clearly neutral.

WWR is just plain a bad stage and actually doesnt assist against camping, it assists against approaching as explained by Vanz. With its already humongous size and the sandbag leading to a lack of approaches it is not a good tournament stage at all.

I thought we were increasing the amount of stage bans per player to 2 with the increase of viable stages.

Doing that would allow more stages to go in to CP territory without the worry of having a second stage **** the reason why you banned the first stage.

You go to a tourney to play matches and fight, not to try to figure out what two stages of 30 you hate the most. The small amount of stages keeps players playing and fighting with slight advantages and disadvantages to basic general strategies. Too many stages creates too many copy clones, and too many bans just makes the system more convoluted than it has to be.

 

[SaltyKracka]

you clearly don't remember anything about my arguments. right out of the gate i was saying it would promote camping. i had examples, reasoning, and while most of it was ridiculous, i was proven right in the end. don't blow me off as saying i "just hated sandbag", i had legitimate reasons that the WBR (or at least Cape) has come to agree on.

How exactly does sandbag promote camping? I've seen that mentioned, but it doesn't make much sense to me. And *****ing about stage size is, as far as I can tell, one of the johnsiest and stupidest objections to a stage that has come up so far.

 

[STUFF2o]

Permanent walk offs create boundary camping. Which is the reason why Eldin, Mario Circuit, Distant Planet, etc are banned.

Are you saying that too many people are killing themselves by walking off, or that chain grabbing is too much of a problem. Because if it's the 1st option, I am disappoint.

 

[The Cape]

You sit inside the bubble with say Olimar and do something stupid to a grab. Back throw KO at 0. Really campy, really stupid.


WiFi Waiting Room promotes camping because if say Fox hits you for damage and then runs to the other side of the screen and keeps shooting, you have to approach. With Sandbag, you can just hide behind him and take no more damage. Meaning you arent approaching. Sandbag does not give you a chance to approach because its motionless, however it gives you a shelter from projectiles. Therefore it removes approaching from the equation.

 

[Rudra]

Are you saying that too many people are killing themselves by walking off, or that chain grabbing is too much of a problem. Because if it's the 1st option, I am disappoint.

1. Get a lead in a match
2. Camp the area near a blastzone (preferably with a projectile user)
3. Opponent approaches and risks being Bthrowed into the death boundary. Rinse and Repeat.

edit: semi ninja'd...

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Are you saying that too many people are killing themselves by walking off, or that chain grabbing is too much of a problem. Because if it's the 1st option, I am disappoint.

No it means I camp the sides as Falco, the opponent has to walk towards me, and I bthrow him to death at 0 percent. True story.

And that was on Delphino, a stage with temporary walkoffs.

If the walkoffs were permanent, there would be no reason for me to ever leave the blastzone edge.

 

[Isatis]

I think he's insisting that you can just stand at the edge, and if the opponent approaches him, you could just grab and throw easily to the boundary

Edit: ninja'd

 

[SaltyKracka]

You sit inside the bubble with say Olimar and do something stupid to a grab. Back throw KO at 0. Really campy, really stupid.


WiFi Waiting Room promotes camping because if say Fox hits you for damage and then runs to the other side of the screen and keeps shooting, you have to approach. With Sandbag, you can just hide behind him and take no more damage. Meaning you arent approaching. Sandbag does not give you a chance to approach because its motionless, however it gives you a shelter from projectiles. Therefore it removes approaching from the equation.

If Fox is running to the other side of the stage, then he is obviously approaching you at one point, at which you have an opportunity to hit him. It's not much different from FD in that regard.

And everything that I've seen assumes that Sandbag will remain absolutely motionless? Why? Characters can launch him with moves, and even by walking against him is they do it right. He can even be shot forward in order to create a wall against projectiles and let a character approach. If Fox or another campy character wants to get rid of it, they have to waste time to either avoid the approach or smack Sandbag out of the way. Simple tactics. It might slow down gameplay, but characters with projectiles do that in the first place.

...

Unless you're going to tell me that somebody came up with some stupid code that means he's frozen in place, in which case my only question would be why.

 

[FrozenHobo]

fox's lasers don't move it. falco's lasers move it very slightly.

the idea being that there is no reason to approach a person shooting at you when you have a wall blocking all fo the damage that would be dealt to you if the sandbag wasn't there.

 

[SaltyKracka]

fox's lasers don't move it. falco's lasers move it very slightly.

the idea being that there is no reason to approach a person shooting at you when you have a wall blocking all fo the damage that would be dealt to you if the sandbag wasn't there.

Unless you can move the wall towards them. As an approach. Or even use Sandbag as a pseudo-projectile, as characters in knockback can cause damage and knockback to others. Sandbag can be used aggressively too. It's not necessarily all camping, all the time.