Brawl+ Stage Legality Discussion: Brawl+ 7.0 Gold Discussion (Go Discuss Everything!)

[Untouch]

I can remove the blocks from Green Greens and make it so whispy can't blow.

Should I?

 

[MK26]

Cool? yes. Heeelllllll yes. Needed? probably not.

btw, is it possible to just remove the bomb blocks?

 

[mofo_]

bowser uses his side-b before he reaches the ground and you press jump and you cancel into a double jump before you touch the ground, and you can keep doing it forever.

the ground is still there on the hack but its out of reach, unless you can hover under it,

sonic HA stall would be broke too?

i doubt you can isjr , and i'd sonic HA would pretty much be the same as any other stage

Actually, getting rid of the klaptrap is a bad idea. There are some pretty potent stalling techniques that you can use on the platform, and the klaptrap is the only thing that keeps me from exploiting the s*** out of that.

The Klaptrap damage should be reduced to 10 and it should have vastly reduced kb and kbg.

Japes is my favorite stage, and I'd love to see it made better.

You should discuss stage modifications here as opposed to stage legality, which is based on the competitive standard used at the time, not potential mods.

yeah or maybe remove the water?

I can remove the blocks from Green Greens and make it so whispy can't blow.

Should I?

thatd be cool. id like to see that, and like M2K6 six said , no bomb blocks....or instead just make the stage slower so not as much blocks are there at once.


other ideas:
Luigi's Mansion: what happened to deadlands? conflictiing codes?
Distant Planet : Constant rain no bulborb
Pirate Ship: like i said, no water and reversed

 

[Alphatron]

Onett sped up x2.

 

[Kei_Takaro]

Oh btw, on that Spear Pillar Mod
I think its better if you lower it a little bit, meaning the lower part of the cave is visible and is also the death boundary

 

[AMKalmar]

I can remove the blocks from Green Greens and make it so whispy can't blow.

Should I?

Removing the blocks is the first one I did. I'll post that when I get home.

Removing only the bomb blocks may need some sort of additional code. (0% chance any block will be a bomb)


Here - no blocks, you can freeze it and whispy won't blow at you or make apples. I don't know how to do that without freezing.

Jungle Japes without Klap Trap - I want to lower the water but when you move the bone the water is attached to some of the vertices don't move. Also I don't know if moving the model for the water will affect the actual collision box for the water.

On Distant Planet I moved the Bulborb waaay down so you never see him but the camera now focuses lower when he decides to appear... which he does A LOT. I didn't know he came around so frequently. I tried moving the ground on the left down too but it didn't move strangely. I think the leaves and maybe the main platform can be moved.

 

[Isatis]

So I might get kicked out, but here's the month-old official stage list

5.0 RC1 Final Results

Starter

Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Yoshi's Island Brawl
Pokemon Stadium 2
Wario Ware
Wifi Waiting Room*

Counterpick

Lylat Cruise
Pokemon Stadium
Brinstar
Castle Siege
Battleship Halberd
Delfino Plaza
Luigi's Mansion
Green Greens
Pictochat
Frigate Orpheon
Jungle Japes
Corneria
Rainbow Cruise

Counterpick/Banned

Distant Planet**

Banned

Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1
Norfair
Green Hill Zone
Mario Circuit
Bridge of Eldin
Spear Pillar
Port Town Aero Dive
The Summit
Pirate Ship
Yoshi's Island Melee
Onett
Big Blue
Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2
Rumble Falls
New Pork City
Skyworld
75m
Mario Bros.
Flat Zone 2
Hanenbow
Shadow Moses Island
Temple

*Wifi Waiting Room was voted into the Starter/Counterpick category, though only 6 stages made it into the Starter category. An odd number of stages is required for the Stage Striking process so Wifi Waiting Room was moved into Starter
**There was an indecisive vote for Distant Planet so it is up to the TOs to decide whether or not Distant Planet will be Counterpick or Banned at their tournament.

 

[MK26]

5.0 RC1 Final Results

Starter

Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Yoshi's Island Brawl
Pokemon Stadium 2
Wario Ware
Wifi Waiting Room* (/2)

Counterpick

Lylat Cruise
Pokemon Stadium
Brinstar
Castle Siege
Battleship Halberd
Delfino Plaza
Luigi's Mansion
Green Greens
Pictochat
Frigate Orpheon
Jungle Japes
Corneria (/2)
Rainbow Cruise

Counterpick/Banned

Distant Planet**

Banned

Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1
Norfair
Green Hill Zone
Mario Circuit
Bridge of Eldin
Spear Pillar
Port Town Aero Dive
The Summit
Pirate Ship
Yoshi's Island Melee
Onett
Big Blue
Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2
Rumble Falls
New Pork City
Skyworld
75m
Mario Bros.
Flat Zone 2
Hanenbow
Shadow Moses Island
Temple

*Wifi Waiting Room was voted into the Starter/Counterpick category, though only 6 stages made it into the Starter category. An odd number of stages is required for the Stage Striking process so Wifi Waiting Room was moved into Starter
**There was an indecisive vote for Distant Planet so it is up to the TOs to decide whether or not Distant Planet will be Counterpick or Banned at their tournament.

2 s and 2 half-s is 3 too many

can i get an explanation, or at least a vote count?

EDIT: and can you take it out of the quotesso i can add it to the op (unless you want to do that yourself?)

 

[FrozenHobo]

wifi should only be neutral in doubles, CP in singles based purely on its size.

 

[Isatis]

2 s and 2 half-s is 3 too many

can i get an explanation, or at least a vote count?

EDIT: and can you take it out of the quotesso i can add it to the op (unless you want to do that yourself?)

done and

Voting Results

Battlefield: 15-0-1 Starter
Final Destination: 12-3-0 Starter
Smashville: 15-0-0 Starter
Yoshi's Island Brawl: 12-5-0 Starter
Lylat Cruise: 3-14-0 Counterpick

Pokemon Stadium: 0-13-0 Counterpick
Brinstar: 0-13-0 Counterpick
Castle Siege: 0-13-0 Counterpick
Battleship Halberd: 1-12-0 Counterpick
Delfino Plaza: 0-11-0 Counterpick

Luigi's Mansion: 0-8-0 Counterpick
Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1: 1-1-9 Banned
Wifi Waiting Room: 5-7-0 Starter/Counterpick
Green Greens: 0-9-4 Counterpick
Pictochat: 1-11-0 Counterpick

Norfair: 0-0-14 Banned
Frigate Orpheon: 0-12-2 Counterpick
Pokemon Stadium 2: 14-0-1 Starter
Distant Planet: 0-4-7 Counterpick/Banned
Green Hill Zone: 0-0-12 Banned

Mario Circuit: 0-1-9 Banned
Bridge of Eldin: 0-0-9 Banned
Spear Pillar: 0-0-8 Banned
Port Town Aero Dive: 0-1-8 Banned
The Summit: 0-0-9 Banned

Pirate Ship: 0-2-6 Banned
Wario Ware: 8-1-0 Starter
Yoshi's Island Melee: 0-2-6 Banned
Jungle Japes: 0-8-1 Counterpick
Onett: 0-1-7 Banned
Corneria: 0-9-1 Counterpick
Rainbow Cruise: 0-7-1 Counterpick
Big Blue: 0-1-7 Banned

 

[JCaesar]

Corneria: 0-9-1 < that lone banner was me btw

But yeah, basically this stage list was hilariously bad. It didn't get used for BtL2 thankfully, and I would never use it at one of my tourneys.

Now that we have SSE stages and a few fixed ones like Skyworld, it should get a lot better.

 

[FrozenHobo]

like PTAD w/ no cars

or pirate ship w/ no water :D

 

[MK26]

*crunches data*

k, so, regardless of whether or not it looked like a joke, i disregarded single votes (except for MK 1-1, since it got two votes that werent for 'ban'). theyre denoted as -, so excel would ignore them and stuff

Battlefield		15	0	-	Starter
Pokemon Stadium 2	14	0	-	Starter
Smashville		15	0	0	Starter
Wario Ware		8	-	0	Starter

Final Destination	12	3	0	Starter
Yoshi's Island Brawl	12	5	0	Starter

Lylat Cruise		3	14	0	Counterpick
Wifi Waiting Room	5	7	0	Starter/Counterpick

Battleship Halberd	-	12	0	Counterpick
Brinstar		0	13	0	Counterpick
Castle Siege		0	13	0	Counterpick
Corneria		0	9	-	Counterpick
Delfino Plaza		0	11	0	Counterpick
Jungle Japes		0	8	-	Counterpick
Luigi's Mansion		0	8	0	Counterpick
Pictochat		-	11	0	Counterpick
Pokemon Stadium		0	13	0	Counterpick
Rainbow Cruise		0	7	-	Counterpick

Frigate Orpheon		0	12	2	Counterpick
Green Greens		0	9	4	Counterpick

Distant Planet		0	4	7	Counterpick/Banned
Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1	1	1	9	Banned
Pirate Ship		0	2	6	Banned
Yoshi's Island Melee	0	2	6	Banned

Big Blue		0	-	7	Banned
Bridge of Eldin		0	0	9	Banned
Green Hill Zone		0	0	12      Banned
Mario Circuit		0	-	9	Banned
Norfair			0	0	14      Banned
Onett			0	-	7	Banned
Port Town Aero Dive	0	-	8	Banned
Spear Pillar		0	0	8	Banned
The Summit		0	0	9	Banned

i just divided the list up by
100% neutral
Edging toward neutral
Edging toward cp from neutral
100% cp
Edging toward cp from banned
Edging toward banned
100% banned

And then i just put the stages in alphabetical order from there

Also, i see that you didnt even bother voting on some superbanned stages lol

Sooo....any thoughts people? Corneria's and Norfair's results surprised me, and i was disappointed by WWR and Lylat
The rest is amost word for word with my list, so that made me

EDIT (hopefully for the last time): op has been updated with list and title change

 

[Isatis]

Norfair was a bit campy and the lava posed a lot of problems. Corneria has the wall where wall-locks are possible and some stage hazards which interfere w/ tournament gameplay.

 

[MK26]

yeah...im wondering why corneria isnt even close to being considered banned...

 

[smashbro29]

I agree with most of this list the only one I really don't get is Pirate Ship.

Banned? Why?

You'd have to be ******** to consistently die from the hazards there.

 

[SaltyKracka]

I think they're more concerned about watercamping, though that's rather stupid, since stage strikes completely take care of that for any of the two or three characters who could take advantage of it.

What I'm more surprised at is how they seem to think that JJ is a perfectly good CP when Norfair isn't. It's more than a little ridiculous.

 

[Kei_Takaro]

I wish I we could have a good Corneria stage, although I have no idea on how to fix wall-locking.

So, I guess I'mma update the SSS in a bit ^^,

O hai, so I herd you liek SSS?
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9105099&postcount=43

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Banned

Norfair
Port Town Aero Dive
Pirate Ship
Skyworld

Wat

Wasn't there a Skyworld+ being worked on that had upper platforms always broken? Otherwise, yeah, obvious ban. Pirate ship... Water? Dammit, that is such a good stage. Port Town is understandable, but seriously-just fix the cars and it's fine! Another great stage.

But what really puzzles me is norfair. Norfair is perfectly fine in vBrawl, what makes it banworthy in Brawl+? People worry about stalling in vBrawl; Brawl+ doesn't have that problem as much. Is it combos out of lava walls or something? I just don't get that, it seems silly. It's a perfectly viable stage, and I can't imagine how it got 14 ban votes, it doesn't make sense. And this while Corneria (which has a permanent wall!) is CP?

 

[JCaesar]

A lot has changed since that list was voted on.

Don't take it seriously.

 

[MK26]

then why was it posted?

and bpc, its for RC1
still no excuse for corneria/norfair tho lol

 

[Kei_Takaro]

A lot has changed since that list was voted on.

Don't take it seriously.

yeah, umm Bio said that was the latest one after they soon forgotten the stages so uhh i dunno

 

[Alphatron]

You know, I'd really like it if the Big Blue slow down was flat out removed from the set at this point. It has succeeded in serving no purpose.

 

[shanus]

I didn't vote on many of these, and would join JCz in the banwagon for corneria.

 

[JCaesar]

It was voted on before BtL2. It was intended to be the official stage list for RC1, but there were some pretty obvious problems, and it was dropped. It hasn't been used at any tournaments. And like I said, a lot of stages have changed since then, making it even less official.

Quitter (you know who ) and I are working on something special for the stages for Pound 4.

 

[MK26]

so why dont we just revert to...my list? that way, everybodys happy :D

 

[Revven]

so why dont we just revert to...my list? that way, everybodys happy :D

Your list with Norfair allowed? Uh, no.

 

[JCaesar]

TOs are always just going to use their own lists until we come up with something really solid.

 

[MK26]

Your list with Norfair allowed? Uh, no.

remind me again whats wrong with norfair in B+ that doesnt apply to vB...

and just ftr, its cp/ban

 

[The Cape]

Quitter (you know who ) and I are working on something special for the stages for Pound 4.

Starters:
Battlefield (BF)
Final Destination (FD)
Smashville (SV)
Pokemon Stadium 2 (PS2)
Yoshi's Island: Brawl (YI:B)

Counterpick:
Wario Ware (WW)
Brinstar (BS)
Delphino Plaza (DP)
SSE Jungle (SSE)
Rainbow Cruise (RC)

Skyworld (SW) - only if we fix sweetspot during hitlag

I HAVE BEEN SUMMONED!

We can try this out this weekend, seems really solid and conservative. Sticks to the players fighting each other and not the stage as well as keeping the skill to the battle. Reviewed it with some other tourney players, they seem to like it.

 

[shanus]

Starters:
Battlefield (BF)
Final Destination (FD)
Smashville (SV)
Pokemon Stadium 2 (PS2)
Yoshi's Island: Brawl (YI:B)

Counterpick:
Wario Ware (WW)
Brinstar (BS)
Delphino Plaza (DP)
SSE Jungle (SSE)
Rainbow Cruise (RC)

Skyworld (SW) - only if we fix sweetspot during hitlag

I HAVE BEEN SUMMONED!

We can try this out this weekend, seems really solid and conservative. Sticks to the players fighting each other and not the stage as well as keeping the skill to the battle. Reviewed it with some other tourney players, they seem to like it.

To me RC seems like the odd man out there. Brinstar too, it feels like there are better options available which yield the same effect of "fighting each other and not the stage."

Frigate vs RC. I'm really surprised on lack of lylat as well. I hate the level but perfectly legit as a CP. I see how it was designed ( a la delphino / brinstar for tether users, RC for non), but I feel the list leaves some to be desired (even though I personally hate the stage counterpick system).

 

[MK26]

What. The. ****.

 

[The Cape]

Frigate has the issue that it randomly KOs off the top which is bad for a tournament stage. It also can randomly situate you under the stage to your extreme disadvantage. The stage favors characters like ROB and Pit and puts almost everyone else at a large disadvantage.

Lylat is not a good counterpick as the tilting of the stage creates an inconsistancy in spacing on platforms, movement, etc. Since the slopes will leads to extra sliding on the landing of aerials on every character. It will also disrupt sweetspots due to the stages normal sways to and fro.

Rainbow cruise has small changing boundaries but moves in a predictable pattern with no active hazards. Due to the close walls it makes a fine counter pick against lighter characters and actually benefits characters like DDD, DK, and Bowser fairly well due to the small size of the boundaries.

Brinstar is small and does not move or change with the exception of the breaking of the floor or the sides. Both of which can be avoidable if neccesary. The small size of the stage also makes running away and projectile camping a good deal less effective (Falco and Samus) giving characters that prefer to fight up close an advantage. The lava can also be used effectively for damage, combos, recovery, etc and is not so fast that it leads to an immediate surprise that takes a stock from you.


Edit:
Skyworld is currently banned and should stay so because of the auto sweetspot during hitlag. It brings back planking such as GW and Marth ala v Brawl.

 

[MK26]

Frigate has the issue that it randomly KOs off the top which is bad for a tournament stage. It also can randomly situate you under the stage to your extreme disadvantage. The stage favors characters like ROB and Pit and puts almost everyone else at a large disadvantage.

1) It's not random. It happens in the exact same two areas of space every time.
2) Jump.
3) So? It's called counterpick for a reason. You have a stage ban for a reason. No stage is truly neutral. With that logic, FD would have been banned a long time ago.

Lylat is not a good counterpick as the tilting of the stage creates an inconsistancy in spacing on platforms, movement, etc. Since the slopes will leads to extra sliding on the landing of aerials on every character. It will also disrupt sweetspots due to the stages normal sways to and fro.

Last I checked, it was called learning the stage.

Castle Siege?
Pokemon Stadium 1?!?
Halberd?!??!??!?!?

 

[The Cape]

Why the hell would FD be banned? Its a static platform, and if people cant recover around the lip of the edges then its just sad.

For Orpheon the KOing off the top can be pretty random as I have seen it KO from multiple spots on both sides of the flip. You should not win a match because the stage just happened to KO your opponent for you. Thats a stupid competitive stage for that reason.

Pokemon Stadium 1 has bad ledges for one, which isnt a bad reason to ban it, but its reason enough to think "why is this on when we have PS2." Secondly its a camper's dream, when the stage changes to the rock formation the game most likely wont move for the nearly 30 seconds+ that it takes for the stage to change. The Fire stage with the tree is of the same instance. It comes down to waiting and waiting which isnt even a skillful endeavor. It just creates situations where either player would be stupid to approach. Bad for competitive play.

Halberd serves the exact same purposes as Delphino but has stronger and more active hazards and a smaller platform. Hurts spacies recoveries as Delphino does and allows for sharking to be done heavily. Delphino is the better choice and both stages should not be on at the same time for that reason. If you were to ban one, and I just took you to the other then I still get to use my strategy against you anyway and its completely stupid for characters like Kirby and MK against characters like Fox and Falco.

As for Seige, I had a great reason for leaving it off when I wrote this up last night, but it completely alludes me now. Will get back to you.


Edit:
Rainbow Cruise is legal and PS1 and Orpheon are legal due to the fact that Cruise is predictable. It never changes its movement or pattern. This gives the player who is familiar with the stage the opportunity to take advantages of certain setups. PS1 and Orpheron are fairly random in their switches giving the changes no strategic value except helping time outs or randomly KOing your opponent for you.

 

[STUFF2o]

Umm... why is Bridge of Eldin banned? It can't be because of King Bulblin, it doesn't take any skill whatsoever to not get hit by him or his bomb.

 

[GHNeko]

Its....a walk...off?

 

[The Cape]

Permanent walk offs create boundary camping. Which is the reason why Eldin, Mario Circuit, Distant Planet, etc are banned.

 

[MK26]

Distant Planet isnt permanent.

And my reply got eaten.

 

[The Cape]

CP/Ban List (for TOs to add other stages)

Mansion
Orpheon
Lylat
Castle Siege
Skyworld (fix hitlag)
Japes
PS1
Halberd

Basically extra stages that could be CPs, but should be decided on by the TO and not be "standard".