The Cape
Smash Master
If you cant auto snap (and even the lower platform can stay) then its a solid CP.
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Brawl+ Stage Legality Discussion: Brawl+ 7.0 Gold Discussion (Go Discuss Everything!)
- Thread starter MK26
- Start date
Alphatron
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Aug 5, 2008
- Messages
- 2,269
Green Greens doesn't have water, a murderous/heavenly ship, bombs dealing 30% dmg fired off at you, and water.
It looks easier to fix than Pirate Ship at least.
Also, can anyone show videos of Orpheon's flip causing Star KOs? I always aim to position myself when the stage warns you about the flip, so I've never seen it. I have gotten caught under the stage before when recovering though.
The Cape
Smash Master
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2j488P1mc0
Done and done
And another:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62qyx9BdYFc
Done and done
And another:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62qyx9BdYFc
MK26
Smash Master
So what have we learned from this, kids?
STAY THE **** AWAY FROM THAT SIDE WHEN YOU SEE THE FLASHY LIGHTS AND HEAR THE ****ING ALARM RING
STAY THE **** AWAY FROM THAT SIDE WHEN YOU SEE THE FLASHY LIGHTS AND HEAR THE ****ING ALARM RING
The Cape
Smash Master
KOed JCaesar in tourney on the right hand side >.>
Alphatron
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Aug 5, 2008
- Messages
- 2,269
...Well, ****. The second video was especially bad, since Game and Watch was just in the air above the stage recovering.
So I was wrong in my assumption. I'll look into specific positions on where the stage can Star KO you. But looking at it, its pretty terrible.
So I was wrong in my assumption. I'll look into specific positions on where the stage can Star KO you. But looking at it, its pretty terrible.
The Cape
Smash Master
Anytime a stage can KO you at 0 (especially when you are forced to that side) its a bad tournament stage.
ok, the game & watch one I understand. He was swept off the top by the stage when it flipped. But wtf happened to marth?
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The Cape
Smash Master
At this point I think its safe to say:
**** Orpheon
**** Orpheon
MK26
Smash Master
BAHAHHAAH
i remember that
last i checked, they never managed to replicate it
i remember that
last i checked, they never managed to replicate it
Cape your stage list is so pristine that God himself had me comment in this thread to say one thing.
Absolutely perfect.
You are a model citizen and a role model to stage list makers all around the world.
Absolutely perfect.
You are a model citizen and a role model to stage list makers all around the world.
SaltyKracka
Smash Lord
AWESOME. AWESOME happened.
mofo_
Smash Ace
the game punished marth for being so cocky with his taunts
Let's get back on topic shall we? =O
I'm still split between Cape and JCaesar's lists
I'm still split between Cape and JCaesar's lists
SaltyKracka
Smash Lord
Nah, Maestro's is better.Let's get back on topic shall we? =O
I'm still split between Cape and JCaesar's lists
KOkingpin
Smash Champion
I like the list But i really think that Lylat should be on as a Counterpick. it has only one hazard and its totally avoidable if you have half of a brain. The sliding of aerials can be used to avoid shield grabs and such and also as a mind game. This is why I use Brinstar all the time. (btw great pick on that stage lol)
Skyworld is an amazing stage with the extra platform on the bottom gone and if you can make it so you cant hit the stage.
I suppose i could see Frigate not making this list with that Star KO issue (it may or may not be a glitch but it shouldnt be allowed in tourney)
JCaesar
Smash Hero
I would love to have that. It would solve so many problems so elegantly. It's just a matter of someone coding it.
I would say, make the interior ledges ungrabbable also. Then I could see it being passable.
But really, just not worth it imo.
And yet I still don't think it's bannable. There are only a few specific places where it can happen, and it gives you plenty of warning with blaring sirens and flashing lights before it flips. Your opponent can't really force you to that specific spot which will kill you because it's offstage and not very big, and if you know the stage well you should never die unless you make a mistake (like I did when I died). There is no reason to ban this stage.
Well, get used to mine, because I'm the TO for basically every B+ tourney in MD/VA including Pound 4, and I have not seen any convincing arguments why Frigate, Lylat, PS1, or Halberd should be banned.Let's get back on topic shall we? =O
I'm still split between Cape and JCaesar's lists
Revven
FrankerZ
Oh ya and Orpheon when the stage flips, some times it can spike you.
Skler
Smash Master
Frigate is a bad stage and should feel bad.
The Cape's list is good and should feel good.
Any questions?
The Cape's list is good and should feel good.
Any questions?
Cia
das kwl
LOL @ thread title.
I don't think anyone would put their name on something they didn't believe in. Cape's stage list just makes the most sense when compared to any others (pretty much anything with WWR as legal =/). Not only that, but so many stages require such dramatic edits that it's just not worth trying to make legal (i.e green greens lol)
Not only that, but he made a really good point that each of the legal counter picks in his stage list requires a different strategy and when banning a stage, one is essentially banning a strategy. THAT's what competitive smash is all about. (strategy)
You guys should listen to Cape more. No offense, but i went through this thread, and I wanted to never post here again =[
I don't think anyone would put their name on something they didn't believe in. Cape's stage list just makes the most sense when compared to any others (pretty much anything with WWR as legal =/). Not only that, but so many stages require such dramatic edits that it's just not worth trying to make legal (i.e green greens lol)
Not only that, but he made a really good point that each of the legal counter picks in his stage list requires a different strategy and when banning a stage, one is essentially banning a strategy. THAT's what competitive smash is all about. (strategy)
You guys should listen to Cape more. No offense, but i went through this thread, and I wanted to never post here again =[
Sterowent
Smash Ace
well, that's a bit harsh.
the trick is...figuring out who the sensible ones are.
the trick is...figuring out who the sensible ones are.
bobson
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2008
- Messages
- 1,674
You banned Lylat Cruise?
****ing Lylat Cruise? And people are taking you seriously?
Is the MBR just some banhappy pack of ****ing morons? I've been giving you guys the benefit of the doubt for awhile now, but come the **** on, you banned Lylat Cruise??
EDIT: Oh Jesus I just realized you banned Halberd, PS1, Orpheon, and Castle Siege, too. I don't think I'm going to be able to take any of you seriously for anything from now on; this is just horrible.
****ing Lylat Cruise? And people are taking you seriously?
Is the MBR just some banhappy pack of ****ing morons? I've been giving you guys the benefit of the doubt for awhile now, but come the **** on, you banned Lylat Cruise??
EDIT: Oh Jesus I just realized you banned Halberd, PS1, Orpheon, and Castle Siege, too. I don't think I'm going to be able to take any of you seriously for anything from now on; this is just horrible.
Sterowent
Smash Ace
while lylat may seem to have the basic components of a neutral stage, the wobbling creates an avenue for both the ground game as well as edgeguarding system to be greatly effected.
still, i do agree. the wobble is in a set pattern, correct? can recoveries not overcome this through good spacing and preemptive decision-making? the dynamic for the onstage game is interesting as well. the only real issues appear when one player doesn't take into account the leaning.
still, i do agree. the wobble is in a set pattern, correct? can recoveries not overcome this through good spacing and preemptive decision-making? the dynamic for the onstage game is interesting as well. the only real issues appear when one player doesn't take into account the leaning.
Alphatron
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Aug 5, 2008
- Messages
- 2,269
It was already proven that the stage tilts weren't random. The only troublesome thing I see is that the ledge sweetspots are a bit odd during the tilts.
And guys, Halberd, Lylat, etc, are cp/banned. It's not as if they've been thrown in the trash alongside Pirate Ship and New Pork City.
And guys, Halberd, Lylat, etc, are cp/banned. It's not as if they've been thrown in the trash alongside Pirate Ship and New Pork City.
The Cape
Smash Master
How about people actually read the ****ing thread where I posted explanations for this ****?
This is how the Brawl+ community works:
LISTEN TO ME WHINING AND DO WHAT I WANT OR I WILL QUIT THE GAME!!!!
****ing babies.
Edit: @Bobson
This is how the Brawl+ community works:
LISTEN TO ME WHINING AND DO WHAT I WANT OR I WILL QUIT THE GAME!!!!
****ing babies.
Edit: @Bobson
bobson
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2008
- Messages
- 1,674
You posted absolutely no legitimate points for anything, except maybe your argument for banning WWR. You said Lylat should be banned because the wobbling causes "spacing inconsistencies." That Halberd should be banned because Delfino is kind of like it and we shouldn't have two. That PS1 should be banned because it's slightly campy, sometimes. You didn't even give a reason for Castle Siege being banned, you just said that there was some reason for it that you forgot.
These are not things that need to be refuted in any detail. These are just inherently stupid, untrue statements.
Maybe the MBR is just trolling the Brawl boards again and this was the best thing they could think of?
As far as anyone who's going to consider using a stagelist like this is concerned, CP/banned is just banned. He threw them in on a CP/banned list after he realized that he banned a couple stages that were candidates for being neutrals.
Kei_Takaro
Smash Lord
Just wanna put this up for some vital parts near the end of the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BFJNc7YIoo
That's just...****
@Cape, that's a big ouch
EDIT: Feedback on Frigate, you could just imagine knowing such glitch and seeing as it could be abused in Tourneys, so Insta-Ban IMO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BFJNc7YIoo
That's just...****
@Cape, that's a big ouch
EDIT: Feedback on Frigate, you could just imagine knowing such glitch and seeing as it could be abused in Tourneys, so Insta-Ban IMO
The Cape
Smash Master
Lylat's tilting edges can never be seen as a legitimate hazard as the tilting can make you miss a recovery all of a sudden. It actually changes the stage grab boxes while it tilts. The stage also starts in a random position at the start each time so its not even like you can even memorize where the stage will be at any given time (like you can use the timer for Wario's fart). Plus when the stage is tilted you have the tilted ledges, and since those are never consistant dont even start telling me that you can use that **** for strategy. The stage's extreme inconsistancy is the reason that it should not be on CP in any serious tournament.
Halberd and Delphino are extremely similar. I think Halberd is a fine stage, but I dont think it should be on a good counterpicking list along with Delphino. Why should I have to use two stage bans (needless complicated as well) to ban one strategy such as sharking, or make sure that my Fox or Falco illusion doesnt get completely ****** by the stage? You guys are not even looking at counter picks in terms of strategy in a tournament, it seems you just pick stages that you feel are fine and want them on CP. That might be fine, but it does not remove redundancies in tactics.
Orpheon can KO you off the top or trap you under the stage. Two videos posted showing different locations and my own experience has seen it KO on the right hand side. Sure there is a big light going off when the stage is going to flip, but the flipping is entirely inconsistent. Seen it flip four times in a row before, that comes into fighting the stage more than the opponent. If you go to a tournament and expect the stage to beat your opponent for you, then how far do you even get in tournies?
Pokemon Stadium 1 is not needed as a CP (but could easily be argued as one) due to the ledges, the windmill, the rock, and the fire stage. All of those stages have areas where no matter what character you are it makes it a completely stupid idea to ever approach. This puts the match on hold for 30 seconds each time. What happens when you get the rock stage 4 times in a row? Thats a waste of two minutes. And dont give me any of this strategic bull**** since it doesnt matter who is hiding behind the rock or the tree, approaching is a stupid idea. Because of TOs only having so much time to run a tourney + the fact that this stage has stupid ledges and areas that create long breaks in the fighting without any kind of a strategy involved then why the hell would we have it on?
Castle Siege is a fine stage, but it has the same problem as WWR. Its decently large and is great for running away and time outs (especially the second stage). Second stage also leads to walk off camping as they are semi permanent. The changing stage also has the opportunity to save from KOs during transformation (which isnt strategic, or good timing) its just ****ing annoying (same reason people hate ghost on Yoshi's Island Brawl). Its like praying that God comes down and saves your *** from being spiked. if you want a big time out stage then go play SSE Jungle since the run away and camp strategy is viable there but it isnt so retardedly easy that I could spam Sonic's "You're too slow" taunt and still win.
The point of the matter is, the stage should lead to assisting a strategy or harming another not beating your opponent for you. Overlapping of the same strategy on different stages makes the entire banning system useless. So you add more bans (which aside from being unbalanced) leads to a more convoluted system than it needs to be. The stage list is conservative but is also the best stage list for competitive play.
Kei, its an ouch but its true. See it all the **** time (even from WBR members). Whine til **** gets changed to their way.
Halberd and Delphino are extremely similar. I think Halberd is a fine stage, but I dont think it should be on a good counterpicking list along with Delphino. Why should I have to use two stage bans (needless complicated as well) to ban one strategy such as sharking, or make sure that my Fox or Falco illusion doesnt get completely ****** by the stage? You guys are not even looking at counter picks in terms of strategy in a tournament, it seems you just pick stages that you feel are fine and want them on CP. That might be fine, but it does not remove redundancies in tactics.
Orpheon can KO you off the top or trap you under the stage. Two videos posted showing different locations and my own experience has seen it KO on the right hand side. Sure there is a big light going off when the stage is going to flip, but the flipping is entirely inconsistent. Seen it flip four times in a row before, that comes into fighting the stage more than the opponent. If you go to a tournament and expect the stage to beat your opponent for you, then how far do you even get in tournies?
Pokemon Stadium 1 is not needed as a CP (but could easily be argued as one) due to the ledges, the windmill, the rock, and the fire stage. All of those stages have areas where no matter what character you are it makes it a completely stupid idea to ever approach. This puts the match on hold for 30 seconds each time. What happens when you get the rock stage 4 times in a row? Thats a waste of two minutes. And dont give me any of this strategic bull**** since it doesnt matter who is hiding behind the rock or the tree, approaching is a stupid idea. Because of TOs only having so much time to run a tourney + the fact that this stage has stupid ledges and areas that create long breaks in the fighting without any kind of a strategy involved then why the hell would we have it on?
Castle Siege is a fine stage, but it has the same problem as WWR. Its decently large and is great for running away and time outs (especially the second stage). Second stage also leads to walk off camping as they are semi permanent. The changing stage also has the opportunity to save from KOs during transformation (which isnt strategic, or good timing) its just ****ing annoying (same reason people hate ghost on Yoshi's Island Brawl). Its like praying that God comes down and saves your *** from being spiked. if you want a big time out stage then go play SSE Jungle since the run away and camp strategy is viable there but it isnt so retardedly easy that I could spam Sonic's "You're too slow" taunt and still win.
The point of the matter is, the stage should lead to assisting a strategy or harming another not beating your opponent for you. Overlapping of the same strategy on different stages makes the entire banning system useless. So you add more bans (which aside from being unbalanced) leads to a more convoluted system than it needs to be. The stage list is conservative but is also the best stage list for competitive play.
Kei, its an ouch but its true. See it all the **** time (even from WBR members). Whine til **** gets changed to their way.
Kei_Takaro
Smash Lord
Cape's got my respect, also I can see that you showed it from the viewpoint of the TO AND the player. Also having considered the smallest consequences that would change the tides of the match.
The only thing I could feel like suggesting now is for the attempt of stage hacking and hope that it would work nicely.
Lylat, I can see that it might be fixed with small hacks (hopefully though)
Castle Siege? I think we could cut off the 2nd part of the stage? As well as making transitions waay faster.
PS1? I'm not too sure about it, and I AGREE, it seems like a waste of time playing there.
Good Job Cape. Also, I'll be updating my Custom SSS again on based on your list.
The only thing I could feel like suggesting now is for the attempt of stage hacking and hope that it would work nicely.
Lylat, I can see that it might be fixed with small hacks (hopefully though)
Castle Siege? I think we could cut off the 2nd part of the stage? As well as making transitions waay faster.
PS1? I'm not too sure about it, and I AGREE, it seems like a waste of time playing there.
Good Job Cape. Also, I'll be updating my Custom SSS again on based on your list.
The Cape
Smash Master
Lylat always starting in a random position = unfreezeable (we tried)
PS1 as Grass Stage only and higher ceiling would be a good CP (as discussed earlier).
PS1 as Grass Stage only and higher ceiling would be a good CP (as discussed earlier).
FrozenHobo
Smash Hero
Cutting out the second form of CS and speeding up the transitions may work (not sure what you feel about the tilting rock at the end).
the more i was thinking about it last night, i like the idea of PS1 Grass as a CP. i love all the transformations, but from a competitive standpoint it does seem to be the most neutral/harbor a more aggressive feel to it than the other forms (nowhere to run to).
as far as lylat goes, would it be possible to change the size of the ledges to be consistent through the tilting? i actually do use the tilting to abuse ice blocks when i play that stage, so anything to keep it in would be good.
the more i was thinking about it last night, i like the idea of PS1 Grass as a CP. i love all the transformations, but from a competitive standpoint it does seem to be the most neutral/harbor a more aggressive feel to it than the other forms (nowhere to run to).
as far as lylat goes, would it be possible to change the size of the ledges to be consistent through the tilting? i actually do use the tilting to abuse ice blocks when i play that stage, so anything to keep it in would be good.
Stop complaining.
cape went out of his way to identify strategies for CP purposes. capes list clearly points out which stages should be neutral and CP. He identifies 10 stages and places them where they belong. THOSE STAGES ARE IN THE CORRECT PLACES GET OVER IT. Those other stages, he clearly stated that it was up to the TO. THAT MEANS NONE OF THOSE ARE ACTUALLY BANNED. THEY ARE UP TO THE TO. THE TO WILL PROBABLY ADD A FEW OF THOSE CP STAGES TO THE F#$%ING LIST. Its about strategies but people can freely add their own stages.
F#$%ING READ THE THREAD.
cape went out of his way to identify strategies for CP purposes. capes list clearly points out which stages should be neutral and CP. He identifies 10 stages and places them where they belong. THOSE STAGES ARE IN THE CORRECT PLACES GET OVER IT. Those other stages, he clearly stated that it was up to the TO. THAT MEANS NONE OF THOSE ARE ACTUALLY BANNED. THEY ARE UP TO THE TO. THE TO WILL PROBABLY ADD A FEW OF THOSE CP STAGES TO THE F#$%ING LIST. Its about strategies but people can freely add their own stages.
F#$%ING READ THE THREAD.
Sterowent
Smash Ace
alright. i was pretty curious about lylat. perhaps my evaluation of how useful the tilt could be was too great? after experiencing the advantages that come from slopes in this game, i wasn't completely ready to let go of a stage that enables it by default, but i guess keeping tabs on the stage's position throughout a match might put too much focus on the stage rather than the opponent.
i'm also glad to see a few more of those explanations. though i saw nothing wrong with your list save lylat, the thorough explanations help me digest it all a bit easier. thanks.
sometimes i wonder why FD is considered so neutral though. it seems so close to the borderline. hah, i wonder if it'd be CP if a very wide hill were in its center...
edit: woah, cool off, sword.
i'm also glad to see a few more of those explanations. though i saw nothing wrong with your list save lylat, the thorough explanations help me digest it all a bit easier. thanks.
sometimes i wonder why FD is considered so neutral though. it seems so close to the borderline. hah, i wonder if it'd be CP if a very wide hill were in its center...
edit: woah, cool off, sword.
The Cape
Smash Master
All the neutrals are basically the same with minor differences:
FD has ledges
BF has three platforms
SV has one moving platform
YI has a wiggled bottom and a tipping platform
PS2 has two platforms
What the neutrals do is allow the players to feel up their opponents and the good players will see their weaknesses and their strengths and counterpick to make either of those more evident. That is why the CPs all have a basic overall type. It comes down to fighting your opponent more than the stage and the stage assists you with your strat.
(Nerd moment) Like in the Yu Gi Oh anime where the area that they battle may give a boost to their character.
FD has ledges
BF has three platforms
SV has one moving platform
YI has a wiggled bottom and a tipping platform
PS2 has two platforms
What the neutrals do is allow the players to feel up their opponents and the good players will see their weaknesses and their strengths and counterpick to make either of those more evident. That is why the CPs all have a basic overall type. It comes down to fighting your opponent more than the stage and the stage assists you with your strat.
(Nerd moment) Like in the Yu Gi Oh anime where the area that they battle may give a boost to their character.
Revven
FrankerZ
Let me give a decent example of what Cape is talking about with Halberd and Delfino.
Say you play against a DDD main (in Brawl mind you) and you main someone he can CG. DDD's best CP is Delfino but, Castle Siege is also a good stage for DDD because of the 2nd transformation. Both stages have platforms to avoid getting CG'd but, they both serve the same strategy: CG to the blastzone transformations. So you won the first match, you ban Delfino because he's DDD. He thinks about his choices and left and chooses the next best thing, Castle Siege.
Castle Siege's 2nd transformation lasts longer than the Delfino ones but, the platforms are higher so you can stay away from the ground below where DDD can CG you. Still, the strategy for the stage for DDD is the same.
There's lots of other characters and stages that have this in Brawl and as someone who wins a match in a tournament, I myself never really know what to ban because either way, they will pick a stage where their strategy benefits them regardless of what I ban. Brawl's banning and CP system is basically, to me, deciding between the two evils. The one that's eviler you ban but, even if you ban that, the lesser of the two will be chosen and the same strategy is applied.
In other words, it's a horrible system and I've always felt that way when you have a large CP list.
Say you play against a DDD main (in Brawl mind you) and you main someone he can CG. DDD's best CP is Delfino but, Castle Siege is also a good stage for DDD because of the 2nd transformation. Both stages have platforms to avoid getting CG'd but, they both serve the same strategy: CG to the blastzone transformations. So you won the first match, you ban Delfino because he's DDD. He thinks about his choices and left and chooses the next best thing, Castle Siege.
Castle Siege's 2nd transformation lasts longer than the Delfino ones but, the platforms are higher so you can stay away from the ground below where DDD can CG you. Still, the strategy for the stage for DDD is the same.
There's lots of other characters and stages that have this in Brawl and as someone who wins a match in a tournament, I myself never really know what to ban because either way, they will pick a stage where their strategy benefits them regardless of what I ban. Brawl's banning and CP system is basically, to me, deciding between the two evils. The one that's eviler you ban but, even if you ban that, the lesser of the two will be chosen and the same strategy is applied.
In other words, it's a horrible system and I've always felt that way when you have a large CP list.
The Cape
Smash Master
Adding a second ban is also not a good idea due to the fact that in that scenario you could ban Castle Siege and Delphino against DDD. But now he has two different bans and can also ban two different strategies. It makes the counterpicking system unbalanced and gives certain characters more advantages than others.
Example with the list that has been used in tournies:
ROB is great on:
Mansion
WiFi Waiting Room
Skyworld
Frigate Orpheon
etc
So why should this character be great at four stages and I have to decide how I want him to bend me over a table and **** me in the ***. Comes down to not fighting the character, but fighting the stage. Not a good way to play a tourney set IMO.
Edit: And when I say great, I mean have unfair advantages against most other characters.
Example with the list that has been used in tournies:
ROB is great on:
Mansion
WiFi Waiting Room
Skyworld
Frigate Orpheon
etc
So why should this character be great at four stages and I have to decide how I want him to bend me over a table and **** me in the ***. Comes down to not fighting the character, but fighting the stage. Not a good way to play a tourney set IMO.
Edit: And when I say great, I mean have unfair advantages against most other characters.