Veril
Frame Savant
epic response, ptI-III
When I spoke with you on the phone today, before I had read this but well after you had written it, I think a lot got cleared up. The major reason moves kill earlier is that the boundaries have been altered on the majority of stages. This affects every character and every KO move. It lets KO moves function before the strings/combos into them cease functioning, gets rid of the remnants of momentum canceling, and decreases the average match length. I could go into how this is the final step to tweaking the ratio of risk to reward, but that's for another wall of text...
So, let me address your points:
Aerials being difficult to punish on shield is also something that isn't at all unique to Bowser, its a quality many aerials share, across the cast we see examples of this with SHFF aerials (Marth, Ganon, Jiggs, Bowser, Peach, Pikachu, Ike, etc).
Pt II.
Bowser's aerials are no more safe now than they were in 6.0. If you have seriously decided to hold off on mentioning them until now, but still call it 'obvious stupidity'. H***, bowser's aerials are no more safe than they were in 5.0! So its been like over 6 months that these aerials have been **** and NOW they are getting brought up... right... >.<
Pt III.
This move has also been absurdly powerful for as long as I can remember playing B+.
A few important things to note about it: only the strongest hitbox kills at 42%. That's if the weaker faster hitbox (which pokes you up into the stronger one) does not hit, because the second strong hit is less weak than the strongest possible hit. The first hitbox appears relatively fast (frame 11), does 4 damage and without any DI will knock you into a stronger hit (but not necessarily the strongest hit). The later hitbox is gonna land around frame 33 (minimum aerial) to 43 (grounded estimate). The notable hitboxes are the weak initial setup hit, the omegadeath a**box, the less strong early aerial a**box, and weaker hitboxes lateral to the central hitbox (noticable when you land but don't get a direct hit).
As to it being difficult or impossible to punish on block (which you brought up when we spoke), this isn't true if the spacing is such that the strong hit collides with the shield. The adv is around -50. The pushback isn't enough to even come close to preventing a dash-grab after shield drop, even from characters with garbage dash grabs. The only character who might not be able to punish is Luigi and that's due to his incredibly low friction.
Closing comments on Bowser:
1. Glick get in here.
2. VaNz most legit concern imo is how safe Bowser's aerials are on block. If they really are substantially safer than the norm than this is a problem. If it is shown that there are ways to punish say, fair on block, than I will post them.
3. Bowser has been like this for a while. Its not what I did, merely that this new set exists. Bowser's down-b might have killed Jiggs at 50 or so in 6.0. I know I was killed by that move at extremely low (40ish) percents as Jigglypuff on FD before the boundary adjustments.
So, Bowser... he's really good. But seriously, this is not new. Its old. Really old in fact. And for the 3 months I wanted feedback. ???
So now I'm in a tricky situation, going into 7.03 where I shouldn't make character changes that aren't related to coding accidents (ex. Sonic's nair and arguably up-smash due to overlapping changes). And to really address what you brought up, I'd have to alter ALR on his aerials and the up-b OOS. Both huge changes.
Discuss.
Ouch. None of what you posted shows that either Bowser or Sonic are leagues ahead of even the majority of the cast. Your argument, if it is based around ease of use, may have some truth in the case of Bowser, but this alone isn't enough to justify nerfing him. If your argument is that Bowser and Sonic have radically better options, or even just better options than most or all of the cast, that is simply not true.
When I spoke with you on the phone today, before I had read this but well after you had written it, I think a lot got cleared up. The major reason moves kill earlier is that the boundaries have been altered on the majority of stages. This affects every character and every KO move. It lets KO moves function before the strings/combos into them cease functioning, gets rid of the remnants of momentum canceling, and decreases the average match length. I could go into how this is the final step to tweaking the ratio of risk to reward, but that's for another wall of text...
So, let me address your points:
The only angle we changed on bair was on the weak hit, not the strong hit. The bair was really good prior to this set. It kills better off the side in this set, but so does every other move... it wasn't buffed damage or kb-wise. Off the side aerial KOs are earlier across the board. It affects Jiggs fair, Lucas's f-smash, Ganon's fair, Peach's f-throw... its not a matter of any individual move. The bair weak hit simply got changed from the sakurai angle to having the same 20° angle as the strong hit.
Aerials being difficult to punish on shield is also something that isn't at all unique to Bowser, its a quality many aerials share, across the cast we see examples of this with SHFF aerials (Marth, Ganon, Jiggs, Bowser, Peach, Pikachu, Ike, etc).
Pt II.
Jigglypuff WAS brought up fairly often as a character who had been massively overbuffed in 6.0, everything we nerfed about her was voted on. In fact, removing her bair size buff was something you voted for (Gurukid was the only person opposed). She also lost her killing up-throw.
Bowser's aerials are no more safe now than they were in 6.0. If you have seriously decided to hold off on mentioning them until now, but still call it 'obvious stupidity'. H***, bowser's aerials are no more safe than they were in 5.0! So its been like over 6 months that these aerials have been **** and NOW they are getting brought up... right... >.<
Pt III.
Down-b on prediction against someone who missed a tech covering several options isn't really that bad. You could say the exact same thing about Ganon's down-b, or DK's/DDD's d-smash (Buuman trap anyone?), or any number of other moves. Missing a tech when near the ledge is really bad. If the person DOES tech, this no MUST be done on prediction and if you are wrong Bowser is gonna get punished fairly hard. Its forced Yomi. Again, not unique to Bowser.
This move has also been absurdly powerful for as long as I can remember playing B+.
A few important things to note about it: only the strongest hitbox kills at 42%. That's if the weaker faster hitbox (which pokes you up into the stronger one) does not hit, because the second strong hit is less weak than the strongest possible hit. The first hitbox appears relatively fast (frame 11), does 4 damage and without any DI will knock you into a stronger hit (but not necessarily the strongest hit). The later hitbox is gonna land around frame 33 (minimum aerial) to 43 (grounded estimate). The notable hitboxes are the weak initial setup hit, the omegadeath a**box, the less strong early aerial a**box, and weaker hitboxes lateral to the central hitbox (noticable when you land but don't get a direct hit).
As to it being difficult or impossible to punish on block (which you brought up when we spoke), this isn't true if the spacing is such that the strong hit collides with the shield. The adv is around -50. The pushback isn't enough to even come close to preventing a dash-grab after shield drop, even from characters with garbage dash grabs. The only character who might not be able to punish is Luigi and that's due to his incredibly low friction.
Bowser's up-b OOS has been a problematically good defensive tactic forever. Moreso than any other use of the up-b, OOS is by far the most useful. It is a very powerful KO move and has invincibility. That said, it is literally the single most important defensive tactic Bowser has, and altering it is a very significant move on our parts.
Closing comments on Bowser:
1. Glick get in here.
2. VaNz most legit concern imo is how safe Bowser's aerials are on block. If they really are substantially safer than the norm than this is a problem. If it is shown that there are ways to punish say, fair on block, than I will post them.
3. Bowser has been like this for a while. Its not what I did, merely that this new set exists. Bowser's down-b might have killed Jiggs at 50 or so in 6.0. I know I was killed by that move at extremely low (40ish) percents as Jigglypuff on FD before the boundary adjustments.
That was a mistake. The angle was not supposed to be that low. Blind has explained already iirc.
Except Zelda's up-smash hits on frame 6 and Sonic's hits on frame 19. Also Zelda's will poke shields more effectively and cannot (reasonably) be escaped, whereas at KO% on floaties they still will fall out of the move before the knockback hit (Jiggs can do this without DI STILL). The hitboxes aren't at all comparable and Zelda has partial invincibility. That said, up-smash may have been overbuffed. My position is that time will tell with this, but if everyone wants the kbg adjustment to the move taken out than... well I really hope that isn't the case.
I agree with this, but not that Bowser/Sonic are leagues ahead of everyone.
So, Bowser... he's really good. But seriously, this is not new. Its old. Really old in fact. And for the 3 months I wanted feedback. ???
So now I'm in a tricky situation, going into 7.03 where I shouldn't make character changes that aren't related to coding accidents (ex. Sonic's nair and arguably up-smash due to overlapping changes). And to really address what you brought up, I'd have to alter ALR on his aerials and the up-b OOS. Both huge changes.
Discuss.
