Brawl+ Official Codeset Gold Discussion

[Akuma2120]

So.... what's happening to Link's fair?

Sorry but I haven't heard anything on this and search function won't work for me.

 

[Isatis]

So.... what's happening to Link's fair?

Sorry but I haven't heard anything on this and search function won't work for me.

As for Link, I'm really very sorry to say that it was surprisingly shot down last week in discussion and voting. I had the new file and had it in place when I was instructed that we weren't going to be using it.

Previous page.

 

[MK26]

...

but...i thought...the presence of the boundary code overrides any pac changes
doesnt it?

 

[Akuma2120]

Previous page.

Wow I'm really that bad huh? lol

About his fair, well the current one I use when an opponent air dodges and I nail them with the second hit but that's about it

If a change will make it better then sure

In any case I'll wait until Gold is fully finalized before I bother updating

 

[ValTroX]

Sorry about the comment FroHo, it was indeed intended for you. I guess I got kinda pissed(and attacked) by your comment, but seriously, I don't really mind if it stays, but, I do feel it can be bothersome, and would like it removed , again, that is only my opinion. Also, I did not meant to brag, I consider that I'm a good player, but only playing against what I consider top opposition(JC's & 5ive's group) could prove that, and that's never gonna happen since we live miles and miles and miles apart.

 

[goodoldganon]

Character changes are 99.9% official. Any change between now and 6 months would be an unforeseen bug fix. Anyone and everyone that wants to play with their final Brawl+ characters should download Gold ASAP. The only changes to Brawl+ between now and six months would be cosmetic and stage.

 

[DotheDiddyMonkeyDance]

I think gold is finalized according to B+ website it states that character changes wont happen for 6 months.. its on the main page.

B+ main page quote:

I’m very pleased to announce the release of Brawl+ Gold. This is to be the final Beta set, and after a 6 month test period, any high-impact issues or character imbalances will be rectified and the official version will be released to the public. The only missing piece at this point is a proper Common5.pac, which will be posted for download in the next few days.

well maybe for the next update( aka 6 months from now) hopefully something will be done about diddy kongs retarted Up B. I mean hell even I tried to fix it but only came across failure. Its something when he colides with the stage celing/Ledge. I mean Diddy can't even Scale up FD now like others can.

 

[matt4300]

As for Link, I'm really very sorry to say that it was surprisingly shot down last week in discussion and voting. I had the new file and had it in place when I was instructed that we weren't going to be using it.

I... I'm speechless. It hasent really sunk in yet because ive been useing the good fair for the last 5 months, but it will next tourney I'm in. I don't even want to bother argueing. Even if you say its going to be in it won't be. I'm gonna stop before I'm infracted again.

 

[iLink]

I'm pretty bumbed out about Link's fair... what made you guys decide to not include it?

On a side note...

THANK GOD FOR THE NEW CAMERA!! : D

 

[Matteron]

Does anyone still have the xml file to use with riivolution?

 

[Veril]

I'm pretty bumbed out about Link's fair... what made you guys decide to not include it?

I'm also bummed out about Link's fair, tbh. Not even so much that my compromise fix got shot down, though I am sad about that, but that the people who voted against this have not yet come out to the Link+ community to explain their decision.

 

[grim mouser]

Could someone explain what was modified in the stage .pac files?

I'd like to use a custom (e.g.) FD texture, but STGFINAL is in /melee. I don't want to remove the included .pac if it contains important stage edits...

 

[MK26]

the ceiling below the edge has been converted to a wall, so you can now ride up it. Also, maybe boundary edits, but those are probably in the boundary code

you can always import the texture in brawlbox...

 

[DiamondbodySharpshooter]

the ceiling below the edge has been converted to a wall, so you can now ride up it. Also, maybe boundary edits, but those are probably in the boundary code

you can always import the texture in brawlbox...

That's slightly inconvenient for someone who has textures for all their stages...

A character changelist may not be as necessary as getting the product out, but a stagel changelist would have been nice.

 

[Slashy]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=271892

Brawl+ Gold tournament, Syracuse

 

[grim mouser]

That's slightly inconvenient for someone who has textures for all their stages...

A character changelist may not be as necessary as getting the product out, but a stagel changelist would have been nice.

Yes, or at least a guide to where to find the changes in Brawlbox.

 

[goodoldganon]

Open your custom texture stages, export the textures (TextureData[0]), open the official B+ stage, and import TextureData[0] into it.

I asked this question a few days ago. Let's try not to clog this topic with these kind of questions and I'll see if I can get the OP to add this directions to the first post.

 

[DiamondbodySharpshooter]

Open your custom texture stages, export the textures (TextureData[0]), open the official B+ stage, and import TextureData[0] into it.

I asked this question a few days ago. Let's try not to clog this topic with these kind of questions and I'll see if I can get the OP to add this directions to the first post.

But who wants to do this 41 times? Even more since Lylat Cruise is 5 files. And before we say this is just laziness, there's also the issue of Lylat only being included for the sake of loading time, from what I've heard. I don't think there were actually any edits. And if there were...Well gee, I wouldn't know! Not to sound obnoxious, but this really should have been included.

 

[FrozenHobo]

But who wants to do this 41 times? Even more since Lylat Cruise is 5 files. And before we say this is just laziness, there's also the issue of Lylat only being included for the sake of loading time, from what I've heard. I don't think there were actually any edits. And if there were...Well gee, I wouldn't know! Not to sound obnoxious, but this really should have been included.

wait... lylat shouldn't be in there.


and stop *****ing about your textures. we told you to back up everything before you updated. you'll get your stage change list with the character one.

 

[Perfect Chaos]

Even more since Lylat Cruise is 5 files

It's not Lylat Cruise that's in there five times; that's Smashville that has 00 to 04 versions. But with those, all you need to do is import your textures to any one of them, and then duplicate it and rename those with each number from 00 to 04, since one of those files contains the data for all the time of day.

 

[DiamondbodySharpshooter]

wait... lylat shouldn't be in there.


and stop *****ing about your textures. we told you to back up everything before you updated. you'll get your stage change list with the character one.

I apologize for that mistake; I remembered seeing Lylat somewhere, and associated it with this issue. That was a mistake. HOWEVER, I don't appreciate taking a legitimate concern and referring to it as simple "starstarstarstarstaring about textures". I back everything up I have, and that was not the issue in the first place; the issue was having to blindly replace textures through Brawlbox without first knowing what the changes were, whether they'll stay, whether they won't.

 

[Perfect Chaos]

The stage changes were either boundary changes, wall-property changes, or both. Replacing the textures won't affect these changes at all if you don't go fiddling with stuff outside of the textures area of the .pac files.

 

[FrozenHobo]

his point is that he shouldn't have to fix the stuff. the problem with that is there will be changes to stages and some outside work will need to be done if you intend on using your own textures with B+.

 

[angelbless]

Still waiting for the common5

 

[VietGeek]

I... I'm speechless. It hasent really sunk in yet because ive been useing the good fair for the last 5 months

[collapse=Wall of Illusion]Well there were several factors that went into my mind when I (yes, my opinions only, although likely influenced by others') voted AGAINST the change:

1. The compromise fix itself
2. Link as a character
3. Conditions surrounding the situation

The F-air compromise is good...as in...it makes F-air a really good move. That's undoubtedly true. However...with the boundary changes, it kills a bit too well, and not to mention made the second hit a total afterthought. The compromise literally flipped the second F-air stats onto the first and then made the second swipe have less damage (and thus less growth).

There was really never a reason to use the second slash unless you just happened to rising F-air at low percents where the two hits would connect (for like 20 damage I believe). If the second swipe ever hit it was really because the full animation was mandatory to go through more or less.

Then of course Link himself. Link has a wealth of consistent and combo-able kill options (this **** is something tons of characters would KILL for in this game [lolpuns]), high combo options (dthrow jab rinse repeat lock is ******** rofl), and is one of the few characters with a REALLY scary trap game. I mean Jabs for other characters are usually just GTFO moves, but Link's applies real pressure due to the IASA tweaks, and not to mention his tether and his grab game all combined produced one frighteningly good close-mid-range control.

Agreeably, Link isn't "top 10" material, but he is definitely a good CP character, and also a solid mid-tier character in my opinion (although I think he's better than Toon Link so I guess that invalidates my opinion huh ). The compromise F-air had the stuffs to propel him even higher, as the current F-air can already be used for stuffing airdodges and screwing with people on the platform (and the compromise F-air would've made this a bit overkill) among other things that you could literally just list down for his ever-growing credentials as an effective hard-hitting traps-pressure character, and for the time being no one knows if Link really needs that kind of move.

His projectiles are better than most others too, with really only Falco besting him (and that's only because Falco's lasers are highly spammable, extremely safe, little commitment, blah, blah, words). The only big weakness Link has is his recovery.

And sure, his recovery blows, but what would this F-air change accomplish in that regard? It certainly won't make your recovery distance better, but it will make his insanely good on-stage game even better. From my understanding, the F-air change would give you a good ledge option, something I believe you guys cited as being the key issue. That's legitimate I believe, with an already bad recovery the least you could have after getting on the ledge is a good chance to get off it onto the stage right?

Not to mention unlike Marth F-air or Zelda Usmash, it's a buff in direct comparison to its vBrawl self, and is a change that is considered radically different from its vBrawl incarnation also. Also unlike Marth's situation, Link already had a fully functional F-air since 5.0. Link is not a character that depends on a "one-move-wonder" and then everything else falls into place; Link's character archetype is a bit sturdier than that. This matter wasn't about fixing something "crippling the character," it was purely a buff to an already functional move, already better than its vBrawl incarnation and functioning correctly.

The Link F-air stuff was brought up pretty early in the Gold development to my understanding, but key B+Broom members already had some opposition to it, or were really on-the-fence. This means that when the Link topic was brought up again...it was actually brought up RIGHT after the first 7.0 release (by the Link main regulars themselves). That means B+Broom members were already rushed to make a decision. Even then, people still opposed it (and I eventually did too due to how the stats of the change stacked up).

But again it forces people to make a tough judgment call on whether or not Link needs it. Brawl+ has had a history of making changes left and right, but that liberty was lost a while ago. Nowadays pushing for changes is extremely difficult, especially if it is a buff for a character. Knowing this, the goals and intentions laid out for Brawl+ Gold didn't exactly help the Link situation.

For 6 months, for better or worse, the Link F-air change was going to stay even if (IFs) it was overpowering the character. The stats on the move itself aren't obscenely ridiculous, so no one can really label it a technical flaw to revise it either. It's a radical change [buff] for an already good character. Yes, I think that was repeated several times in this post. Call it selfish if you will, but this was a gamble I couldn't commit to.[/collapse]

TL;DR:

Spoiler

I'm a jerk but I don't purposely try to do so.

I put this post haphazardly together, but basically no one knows what the consequences of applying this change would have to the Brawl+ metagame, but everyone DOES know Link is already a viable character except against heavy projectile users or hitstun-resistant characters, and those are far and few. I have nothing against Link but the factors at the time just weren't ideal for ironing out and polishing the change nor for thorough testing to produce the best possible F-air for Link that gave both hits a real 'niche' in Link's moveset while maintaining the subtle balance of his strengths and weaknesses - difficult for a character like Link that down to his very being runs hot and cold.

 

[MK26]

hmm

that makes sense, i suppose

 

[Plum]

I voted it down as well.
I won't have this post be as cool as Viet's but oh well.
To be short and sweet, Link's Fair is currently a fine move, and Link has been fine as a character for awhile now. I also took into consideration that Link is a character who was indirectly buffed by the boundary changes; he already had reliable kill setups and now they all kill at even earlier percents. The last thing he needed was a change to Fair that would give him further kill options as well as cover up weaknesses of an already solid mid tier character.

Something I noticed yesterday that really sucks though is how the lowered ceilings really screw up Wario's full Waft. If Wario gets sent up over the ceiling because of a full Waft he star KO's himself. With the low ceilings of this set he basically kills himself even if he's slightly above the stage when he Wafts. Make sure you only use half Wafts from now on Wario players

 

[iLink]

Well technicaly every character was indirectly buffed by the boundary changes. Fox is pretty dang scary now with that usmash.

I noticed the waft thing too, I think I was on one of the bottom platforms of BF and used a fully charged one and it managed to KO me.

 

[Perfect Chaos]

Well technicaly every character was indirectly buffed by the boundary changes.

Well, that's not completely true, considering that Wario example of yours. And I would say some characters, like Jigglypuff and Lucario (especially the former), would benefit more with farther boundaries, so it's more of an indirect nerf for them.

 

[Dai Tian]

True, but Jiggs now also kills a little bit earlier with Rest because of them.

 

[iLink]

In that sense, its an indirect buff and nerf to everyone.


Everyone can KO earlier but also can get KO'd earlier.

Jiggs can KO insanely earlier with Rest now and requires less offstage hits to KO.

Lucario can have trouble KO'ing when he is at low percents but this isn't as much of an issue with the new boundaries.

EDIT: Ninja'd

 

[Perfect Chaos]

It's just a matter of the degree of how much it helps versus how much it hurts with the boundary change for it to be considered a buff or a nerf. But this amount is highly debatable for the most part.
In general, though, it is that anyone that's light, has a good recovery, and a good gimping game is hurt the most with closer boundaries. *coughmetaknightcough* («-but I don't mind that at all )

 

[matt4300]

[collapse=Wall of Illusion]Well there were several factors that went into my mind when I (yes, my opinions only, although likely influenced by others') voted AGAINST the change:

1. The compromise fix itself
2. Link as a character
3. Conditions surrounding the situation

The F-air compromise is good...as in...it makes F-air a really good move. That's undoubtedly true. However...with the boundary changes, it kills a bit too well, and not to mention made the second hit a total afterthought. The compromise literally flipped the second F-air stats onto the first and then made the second swipe have less damage (and thus less growth).

There was really never a reason to use the second slash unless you just happened to rising F-air at low percents where the two hits would connect (for like 20 damage I believe). If the second swipe ever hit it was really because the full animation was mandatory to go through more or less.

Then of course Link himself. Link has a wealth of consistent and combo-able kill options (this **** is something tons of characters would KILL for in this game [lolpuns]), high combo options (dthrow jab rinse repeat lock is ******** rofl), and is one of the few characters with a REALLY scary trap game. I mean Jabs for other characters are usually just GTFO moves, but Link's applies real pressure due to the IASA tweaks, and not to mention his tether and his grab game all combined produced one frighteningly good close-mid-range control.

Agreeably, Link isn't "top 10" material, but he is definitely a good CP character, and also a solid mid-tier character in my opinion (although I think he's better than Toon Link so I guess that invalidates my opinion huh ). The compromise F-air had the stuffs to propel him even higher, as the current F-air can already be used for stuffing airdodges and screwing with people on the platform (and the compromise F-air would've made this a bit overkill) among other things that you could literally just list down for his ever-growing credentials as an effective hard-hitting traps-pressure character, and for the time being no one knows if Link really needs that kind of move.

His projectiles are better than most others too, with really only Falco besting him (and that's only because Falco's lasers are highly spammable, extremely safe, little commitment, blah, blah, words). The only big weakness Link has is his recovery.

And sure, his recovery blows, but what would this F-air change accomplish in that regard? It certainly won't make your recovery distance better, but it will make his insanely good on-stage game even better. From my understanding, the F-air change would give you a good ledge option, something I believe you guys cited as being the key issue. That's legitimate I believe, with an already bad recovery the least you could have after getting on the ledge is a good chance to get off it onto the stage right?

Not to mention unlike Marth F-air or Zelda Usmash, it's a buff in direct comparison to its vBrawl self, and is a change that is considered radically different from its vBrawl incarnation also. Also unlike Marth's situation, Link already had a fully functional F-air since 5.0. Link is not a character that depends on a "one-move-wonder" and then everything else falls into place; Link's character archetype is a bit sturdier than that. This matter wasn't about fixing something "crippling the character," it was purely a buff to an already functional move, already better than its vBrawl incarnation and functioning correctly.

The Link F-air stuff was brought up pretty early in the Gold development to my understanding, but key B+Broom members already had some opposition to it, or were really on-the-fence. This means that when the Link topic was brought up again...it was actually brought up RIGHT after the first 7.0 release (by the Link main regulars themselves). That means B+Broom members were already rushed to make a decision. Even then, people still opposed it (and I eventually did too due to how the stats of the change stacked up).

But again it forces people to make a tough judgment call on whether or not Link needs it. Brawl+ has had a history of making changes left and right, but that liberty was lost a while ago. Nowadays pushing for changes is extremely difficult, especially if it is a buff for a character. Knowing this, the goals and intentions laid out for Brawl+ Gold didn't exactly help the Link situation.

For 6 months, for better or worse, the Link F-air change was going to stay even if (IFs) it was overpowering the character. The stats on the move itself aren't obscenely ridiculous, so no one can really label it a technical flaw to revise it either. It's a radical change [buff] for an already good character. Yes, I think that was repeated several times in this post. Call it selfish if you will, but this was a gamble I couldn't commit to.[/collapse]

TL;DR:

Spoiler

I'm a jerk but I don't purposely try to do so.

I put this post haphazardly together, but basically no one knows what the consequences of applying this change would have to the Brawl+ metagame, but everyone DOES know Link is already a viable character except against heavy projectile users or hitstun-resistant characters, and those are far and few. I have nothing against Link but the factors at the time just weren't ideal for ironing out and polishing the change nor for thorough testing to produce the best possible F-air for Link that gave both hits a real 'niche' in Link's moveset while maintaining the subtle balance of his strengths and weaknesses - difficult for a character like Link that down to his very being runs hot and cold.

I really appreciate you going indepth about it. From what you say it was shot down because it was a buff to an already good character. Wich makes since, BUT that wasn't ever really the point of it. It wasnt to give link better options or (god forbid) another kill move. It was to make link feel like link. Not only that but give him SOMETHING to get back onstage with. Getting back on stage is one of links hardest changes. I resort to nair and ledge hopped bombs most of the time.

Again I must stress... The point of this was a HARD hitting first hit fair. It wasn't a matter of buffing the char. Infact I wouldn't care if neither hit killed aslong as it could get faster chars and edge guarders off links ***.

It is infact, to late for me to ask hope, or pray for it anymore. Its done, and it sucks that problems that could have easily been compromised prevented a great change to link. As frustrating as it is being on the sidelines and doing everything I could to gather people, and put time/effort into this for months; I kinda just have to give up.

I feel like **** about the whole thing, and how powerless I really was to get this in. It's all up to the purples in the end.

thanks again viet, and thanks Veril for trying.

 

[proteininja]

So dramatic.

You are going to give up on the whole thing just because your amazing character has a weakness? In order to ledge hop aerials with bowser I have to be almost frame perfect since his second jump is about as bad as link's. Everyone can jump off the ledge or attack or roll or just get up. Use those for mix ups, and then throw in the occasional ledge hopped neutral air. Link has three projectiles and an excellent combo game with enough kill moves for 3 characters. Just because the link+ thread wants something doesn't mean it should be that way. Can't you see that link mains might be a tiny bit biased. That is what we count on the back room for. Unbiased opinions.

 

[goodoldganon]

Personally, I'd have asked to trade that aerial Up-B buff Link got for the better F-air. Trade a KO move to make Link feel more complete. But what's done is done and that's all there is to it so we just gotta live with what we got.

 

[shanus]

Just disable wario's ability for full waft to kill himself off the top, its all a matter of a bit set.

 

[Alphatron]

On the bright side, at least the fair lost that stupid Sakurai angle. And shanus, why hasn't anyone thought of that before?! o_O

 

[Yeroc]

I thought of it a half hour ago while reading the thread, if that helps

 

[FrozenHobo]

Just disable wario's ability for full waft to kill himself off the top, its all a matter of a bit set.

i was actually thinking about this...

why not look at giving him a Waft Cancel? Have it so when he does a waft he can perform an aerial to cancel his upward momentum, or hold up to keep his momentum (for recoveries). kind of like a DJC, but with farts.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Or you could look at Waft in PSA, find out why he kills himself, and just change that aspect of it (after all, Sonic doesn't kill himself with HIS up B and they're basically the same <_<).