ManEg
Smash Journeyman
I wasn't complaining about lucas nor pkt1, just how powerful SSs are. That's all.
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Brawl+ Official Codeset Gold Discussion
- Thread starter The Cape
- Start date
- Status
Revven
FrankerZ
Well, every move can be an SP at the right percent. You'd essentially be nerfing every move in the game for the simple fact that you can't tech on time. (Gross exaggeration but you get the idea)
Gardevior
Smash Lord
Basically what (I think) Falco is saying is that the stage isn't the one hitting you and making you bounce off at some static or increasing value that can be buffed/nerfed. The move you are hit with into the stage produces the knockback.
Veril
Frame Savant
Um... no. Stage spikes are really powerful but you can tech, and its not anywhere near impossible to do, especially since PKT1 has to be arced into you... its telegraphed like whoa. You can even SDI and ledgetech depending on where you are positioned.
No Johns.
Falco400 is harsh, but basically right. Teching stage spikes is just something you need to learn, in vBrawl and B+. Stage spikes are fine.
ValTroX
Smash Ace
wait wait wait, when did I say I wanted a nerf for Lucas? please reread, I said I wanted a little nerf for stage spikes, which are kinda strong TBH
EDIT: I guess most of us are just too melee based. Stage spikes were possible aat melee(look at some Doc matches) but the were not ******** in terms of power, I mean, I get you can tech them, but dying from a stage spike cause it sends you SO far down at 15% as ManEg said is just not right is it?
EDIT2: Also, I forgot to say, percentage dependant? For the tech in any case, cause if you get stage spiked, you WILL die.
MK26
Smash Master
Or your CAFEBABE
Revven
FrankerZ
I'll be harsh again.
Whatever put you into the situation of getting stage spiked you need to avoid. That's just how it is. As far as I am aware, there is no distinct control over how strong you get stage spiked other than fixing the move's direct knockback because that is what determines whether or not you get stage spiked.
Here's how it works, I'll use the simplest example I can, DK's cargo spike:
DK's cargo Bthrow will not stage spike well (to the point of certain death) until 80% or more in vBrawl (it's around there anyway) and his Fthrow is pretty much the same way. However, at 15%, neither throw will stage spike you because of the knockback the throws possess. They don't have enough knockback to stage spike you at 15%. What this means is, in order to effectively nerf either stage spike is to directly nerf their knockback, which in turn affects the usefulness of the throws as a whole, as well as can change other factors not thought of before such as increasing their comboability.
When you say to "nerf stage spikes" you're really saying to "nerf their knockback at high %s", most of these moves that are stage spiking you are moves that are also KO moves (with a few exceptions, like Lucas's PKT). Nerfing their KBG affects the move's usefulness in two ways, not just one, so when you intend to nerf it for one thing you may unintentionally buff it in another way.
There's no way to control how hard you bounce off from the stage, that is dependent on the move's knockback that sent you towards the stage.
If the move tumbles at high %s with strong enough KB to push you offstage, that likely means it can stage spike you if it has the right angle. Let me give you a few other moves that can stage spike (if you bother trying to) to show you that it's not just a few moves, it's a lot of moves:
Kirby Bair
CF Up B, Bair, Knee, Uair, Falcon Punch
DK Fthrow/Bthrow/Dthrow/Bair
Zelda Fair/Bair
Wolf Bair
Pit Bair
I could go on and on but basically, if you wanted to nerf stage spikes, you'd have to nerf a move's KB in some way. Which as you can see by the short list above, most of those moves listed are in fact KO moves (with a few exceptions).
We cannot, honest to God, nerf stage spikes like you think we can. It is dependent on a move's knockback, as told to you in simplest terms by Gardevoir. Which would in turn nerf a move's usefulness...
Understand now? =\
Edit: Not to mention the fact that teching is in fact easier than in vBrawl.
Edit 2: It's a sad day when this is what this topic has come to, talking about nerfing stage spikes... *sigh*
Wind Owl
Smash Lord
Kaye Cruiser
Waveshocker Sigma
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2009
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- 8,032
- NNID
- KayeCruiser
- Switch FC
- 0740-7501-7043
Well ain't this rich. People are getting butthurt because there's nothing to talk about. ¦D
I thought I fixed that. I released a separate zip with fixes to Kirby and Ike.
CountKaiser
Smash Lord
You did? I completely missed it, and I am truly sorry for not testing it.
If you could send me the file, I would be more than happy to test it for you.
If you could send me the file, I would be more than happy to test it for you.
ValTroX
Smash Ace
@Falco: I guess that's the way you had to explain it in the first place, I feel enlightened. It's just some attacks that kill at a ridiculous low percent(Lucas PKT1, Dolphin slash seems to fit that category too) but that clears things. up, thanks for the detailed explanation.
@Alphatron: Your post was ignorant and unnecessary, and I know I'm just feeding a troll, but stop posting if you got nothing close to coherent to say.
@Alphatron: Your post was ignorant and unnecessary, and I know I'm just feeding a troll, but stop posting if you got nothing close to coherent to say.
I'll just post it again here:
I forget if this is GSH2 or not so be warned lol:
http://www.mediafire.com/?mmzztotjw2u (Everyone including camera changelist IIRC)
http://www.mediafire.com/?mlxjfzrmzkt (Kirby and Ike individual fixes)
If there are still problems (specific or general; NOT pertaining to Pokemon Trainer and his three Pokemon) do let me know.
Perfect Chaos
Smash Master
I'm pretty sure those camera fixes were made during GSH2, so it won't be 6.0.
CountKaiser
Smash Lord
Hmm, I could change the 6.0 .pacs to reflect the different camera, then post it here for others to use.
Dai Tian
Smash Journeyman
I would support you doing so, and even test them out if possible. I'd love camera change for the better.
N.A.G.A.C.E
Smash Champion
well since there seems to be nothing to talk about i am going to bring up something i have brought many times before on older versions of B+, why don't u just give lucaro's upB a hit box instead of the no freefall thing?
Also about the stage spikes being to strong, Falco says that the only way to weaken the spike would be to weaken the move, i say he is wrong we just need to make the stages out of something softer, like Styrofoam or cotton candy.
Also about the stage spikes being to strong, Falco says that the only way to weaken the spike would be to weaken the move, i say he is wrong we just need to make the stages out of something softer, like Styrofoam or cotton candy.
ManEg
Smash Journeyman
Well, as I predicted, I got hostile responses and mockery for posting a reasonable suggestion when what we were talking about was how to make c. falcon say a word when he hit someone... hehe
But anyway, I had to get it out of my system so thanks for the explanation falco400, although I'm sure this thread wouldn't have been reduced to "this" if you had explained it earlier.
But anyway, I had to get it out of my system so thanks for the explanation falco400, although I'm sure this thread wouldn't have been reduced to "this" if you had explained it earlier.
Alex 615
Smash Apprentice
Can this be confirmed?
God **** it... I That was meant to ease the minds of the poeple going to a tourney in AL this saturday... Didnet know anyone in the workshop would see that thread.... Hope i diden't let the cat out of the bag... That is if veril was trying to keep said cat in the bag..
Wind Owl
Smash Lord
...... Are you serious?
Gardevior
Smash Lord
I did this from when I joined until around three months ago.
Come on guys.... It was in the alabama threads... For god sakes theres like 20 people in there and VERY few play brawl+... Point is those guys needed to know if the set was comming out before the tourney. It was a big deal for the people entering in brawl+. So I let the the guys going know that we wouldnt have to worry about it not comming out... Veril let me know FOR this tourney. Diden't think it would be a problem to let those comming know that they should get the latest build before they head out.
Is this a problem?
Is this a problem?
Dident think it would be a problem... Honestly... Veril didn't let me know, or act like it was a secret... he said about few weeks back it would be out in 2 weeks... Its been about 2 weeks. Why do you act like its a bad thing to know when its out?
Perfect Chaos
Smash Master
Because officially promising a release date would simple put pressure on the crew to release it on time. If they don't finish on time, they would either have to break that promise and look bad for making the promise in the first place, or rush it and release it with problems (which have happened before, if you haven't noticed... <_<).
Marth is one of my mains, so you can bet that I want an update (since Marth is getting a re-nerfing of his f-air, among other stuff, to make it less horrible), but I'm still patiently waiting without asking for a confirmed release date every so often...
I understand the issue of a moderately big tournament in your area coming up, but that doesn't change the fact that it's better not to rush it.
Alphatron
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Aug 5, 2008
- Messages
- 2,269
He never made any promises though. He said two weeks would be the likely release date. I'm also pretty sure he said that before the changes to Sakurai angle kill/gimp moves was even suggested.
Nothing official about what I said... I'm not on the team. I wanted to keep it in that thread lol. The guys there don't even post in the Workshop. Wich is why i was surprised to find that someone quoted me.
No ones pressureing Veril and the team to release it on that day... If he needs more time we will just have to use the last stable set. And I didnt ask for a release date... He just told me it would probley be out saturday. I PMed to ask if it would be out before the 27th. He was nice enough to give me a probley and an actual day.
First + tourney we had was dominated by lucario ... We dont want that happening again. That uthrow is broken as all hell.
Thanks neko...
Wow.... Just **** me...
So are you guys going to do something about Charizard before gold release? I'd like to know because Charizard players, which is only a few.., want some changes done. Drastic or not, rarely anyone even plays Charizard so even if there was a drastic change, no one would even know except those who actually play them.
Guru just made a post about Charizard. It's well written and it has a very good point. We made some suggestions in the Charizard thread so please consider something for Charizard as this character lacks in about everything he does.
Guru just made a post about Charizard. It's well written and it has a very good point. We made some suggestions in the Charizard thread so please consider something for Charizard as this character lacks in about everything he does.
Hmm... there seems to be a problem with Bowser's aerial upb. Everytime I got hit with it while Bowser was recovering, it dragged me along with him but I was able to get out of the hitstun before the landing lag ended and was able to throw him off the stage again repeatedly. Maybe give the end a little knockback so they don't end up right next to you?
proteininja
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2009
- Messages
- 243
It encourages you to sweet spot the ledge. It is very punishable in air for a reason. And that reason is so it isn't some unstoppable god recovery. It already has Super armor in the beginning. Just aim for the ledge, and if they come out to hit you just upb right before they hit you.
Veril
Frame Savant
Gold release announcement pt1
For those of you who have been patiently waiting for a stable set, I thank you for your patience. On Sunday, the Gold set will be released. This truly represents the culmination of a long and arduous process.
Gold will be more than just another update, it will be the "update". After Gold, there will be a 6-month period during which there will be an absolute moratorium on any balance sensitive changes. The only exception will be in the case of glitches that genuinely make the game unplayable (by crashing the game entirely), and minor cosmetic fixes which do not directly impact balance in any way. This should be a relief to players who want to get into B+, but are hesitant due to fear of change negatively impacting their characters. I understand that many of you have reservations about the current set, concerns about balance and the way changes have been made in the past.
I'd like to take this opportunity to clarify what "our plan" for Gold is.
Increase the speed of the game without redoing the physics
In 5.0 this was somewhat less of an issue because hitstun was so high that the more popular characters all had very reliable autocombos. The problem was that these combos took next to no skill to execute, and low% combos especially were stale and predictable, without being escapable. With the reduction of hitstun, we saw a new problem emerge, the lack of reliable kill options.
The first of my solutions to this is fairly simple: reduce the KO% across the board, especially off the top, on the majority of stages. This increases the "reward" for aggressive play. It allows for KO setups (though not necessarily autocombos) to actually land that KO prior to the % that chasing for a followup move becomes impractical. The matches will progress faster, and the vBrawl style will be a lot less effective than it is currently.
The second, removal of many instances of the "sakurai angle" is a bit more technical and requires some explanation. The Sakurai angle is a special angle that causes the knockback angle to progressively increase as the knockback distance increases. The angle starts around 20° but increases as % does. This results in an effective "automatic survival DI" when applied to KOing or gimping moves. When this is applied to moves that combo, it actually can help, and it is important for avoiding techs on reaction. So jabs having the sakurai angle aren't a problem. When a move like Bowser's f-smash has this angle, clearly we have an issue.
An additional problem is that moves with the sakurai angle ALL have a slight chance of tripping at the % prior to the point at which tumble could be induced. While that doesn't sound awful, it breaks the flow of a match and in most cases, this trip cannot be exploited by the attacker.
Blind and Count_Kaiser have been extremely helpful in getting me a complete list of the moves with this angle, and there is not a single character who is not negatively affected by this.
Short version:
-Stage boundary adjustments will reduce KO% off the top of most stages and to a lesser extent KO% off the sides.
-KOing moves with the Sakurai angle will be given static angles, this will improve their ability to KO off the side and force people to really master the DI.
Remove Game-Breaking Elements and avoiding the need for surgical rules
Glitches that result in infinite stalls or loop combos, the game actually crashing or instant KOs (such as teleporting someone under the stage via IC fusion) are being removed. CGs that deal upwards of 50% damage without the option of escape via DI will be addressed by individual move adjustment (Kirby's d-throw, Lucario's up throw for example) and through the alteration of Captain Falcon's physics.
Have a partial list...
CF's CG vulnerability: physics adjustments will result in lower conventional KOs off the top, but reduce his crippling weakness to CGing.
IC fusion glitch: removed by granting Nana invincibility during the dual IC squall hammer. This will not affect desynch or single IC side-b.
Kirby's d-throw infinite: very slight tweaks will remove the infinite given the new CF physics (infinite still worked unfortunately).
Lucario's up-throw CG: no aura on up-throw and slight tweaks to make it escapable.
MK's IDC: c-stick input will now cancel the dimensional cape into the slash. IDC and EDC are now impossible as a result.
Sheik chain jacket: not removed, merely removing the component of the glitch that causes the crash.
Sonics CGs on FFers: Sonic's throws will be better in every way EXCEPT for losing the ability to CG FFers, especially Falco, to an extreme degree.
DJCH: still working on this glitch, it is quite tricky, but it will be fixed.
Yoshi side-b stall: egg jump refreshes are now limited to 1.
Too be continued... Pt II will be character specific changes, polishing elements and new stages :D
For those of you who have been patiently waiting for a stable set, I thank you for your patience. On Sunday, the Gold set will be released. This truly represents the culmination of a long and arduous process.
Gold will be more than just another update, it will be the "update". After Gold, there will be a 6-month period during which there will be an absolute moratorium on any balance sensitive changes. The only exception will be in the case of glitches that genuinely make the game unplayable (by crashing the game entirely), and minor cosmetic fixes which do not directly impact balance in any way. This should be a relief to players who want to get into B+, but are hesitant due to fear of change negatively impacting their characters. I understand that many of you have reservations about the current set, concerns about balance and the way changes have been made in the past.
I'd like to take this opportunity to clarify what "our plan" for Gold is.
Increase the speed of the game without redoing the physics
In 5.0 this was somewhat less of an issue because hitstun was so high that the more popular characters all had very reliable autocombos. The problem was that these combos took next to no skill to execute, and low% combos especially were stale and predictable, without being escapable. With the reduction of hitstun, we saw a new problem emerge, the lack of reliable kill options.
The first of my solutions to this is fairly simple: reduce the KO% across the board, especially off the top, on the majority of stages. This increases the "reward" for aggressive play. It allows for KO setups (though not necessarily autocombos) to actually land that KO prior to the % that chasing for a followup move becomes impractical. The matches will progress faster, and the vBrawl style will be a lot less effective than it is currently.
The second, removal of many instances of the "sakurai angle" is a bit more technical and requires some explanation. The Sakurai angle is a special angle that causes the knockback angle to progressively increase as the knockback distance increases. The angle starts around 20° but increases as % does. This results in an effective "automatic survival DI" when applied to KOing or gimping moves. When this is applied to moves that combo, it actually can help, and it is important for avoiding techs on reaction. So jabs having the sakurai angle aren't a problem. When a move like Bowser's f-smash has this angle, clearly we have an issue.
An additional problem is that moves with the sakurai angle ALL have a slight chance of tripping at the % prior to the point at which tumble could be induced. While that doesn't sound awful, it breaks the flow of a match and in most cases, this trip cannot be exploited by the attacker.
Blind and Count_Kaiser have been extremely helpful in getting me a complete list of the moves with this angle, and there is not a single character who is not negatively affected by this.
Short version:
-Stage boundary adjustments will reduce KO% off the top of most stages and to a lesser extent KO% off the sides.
-KOing moves with the Sakurai angle will be given static angles, this will improve their ability to KO off the side and force people to really master the DI.
Remove Game-Breaking Elements and avoiding the need for surgical rules
Glitches that result in infinite stalls or loop combos, the game actually crashing or instant KOs (such as teleporting someone under the stage via IC fusion) are being removed. CGs that deal upwards of 50% damage without the option of escape via DI will be addressed by individual move adjustment (Kirby's d-throw, Lucario's up throw for example) and through the alteration of Captain Falcon's physics.
Have a partial list...
CF's CG vulnerability: physics adjustments will result in lower conventional KOs off the top, but reduce his crippling weakness to CGing.
IC fusion glitch: removed by granting Nana invincibility during the dual IC squall hammer. This will not affect desynch or single IC side-b.
Kirby's d-throw infinite: very slight tweaks will remove the infinite given the new CF physics (infinite still worked unfortunately).
Lucario's up-throw CG: no aura on up-throw and slight tweaks to make it escapable.
MK's IDC: c-stick input will now cancel the dimensional cape into the slash. IDC and EDC are now impossible as a result.
Sheik chain jacket: not removed, merely removing the component of the glitch that causes the crash.
Sonics CGs on FFers: Sonic's throws will be better in every way EXCEPT for losing the ability to CG FFers, especially Falco, to an extreme degree.
DJCH: still working on this glitch, it is quite tricky, but it will be fixed.
Yoshi side-b stall: egg jump refreshes are now limited to 1.
Too be continued... Pt II will be character specific changes, polishing elements and new stages :D
I'm also announcing that as of the Gold release, all support for the snapshot method will be dropped. The reason we had this around was for certain loaders that could not load more than 256 lines of code (like backups), however with newer loaders coming out with the new Ocarina engine and the support for more than 256 lines, we have no more reason to support using the snapshot method anymore. If anyone has any questions about this one, you may feel free to contact me through PM's/VM's.
Secondly, Brawl+ will now have Riivolution support embedded into the updater. Everyone used to be limited to using a 2GB (or lower) SD card, but with the advent of Riivolution, you may now play Brawl+ from SD, SDHC or even from a USB drive. Should Riivolution support HTTP autoupdates (as in, downloading straight from the Brawl+ site in real-time without the need to put files on your SD/SDHC card or USB drive), we will include support for that as well.
Secondly, Brawl+ will now have Riivolution support embedded into the updater. Everyone used to be limited to using a 2GB (or lower) SD card, but with the advent of Riivolution, you may now play Brawl+ from SD, SDHC or even from a USB drive. Should Riivolution support HTTP autoupdates (as in, downloading straight from the Brawl+ site in real-time without the need to put files on your SD/SDHC card or USB drive), we will include support for that as well.
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