ThatGuyYouMightKnow
Smash Champion
I finally realized how to NOT DJC after a few bouts with Yoshi. I met some nice Yoshi and Ness players that used DJC very well.
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Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)
- Thread starter shanus
- Start date
- Status
Bladefist137
Smash Cadet
Altho i have to used to it still, Yoshi with DJC abilities is **** painful when used right lol. Think this is the best change ever for Yoshi imo as it has made him beastly when used correctly.
Might still not be enough to make to the TOP 10 but i think people will finally respect Yoshi or at least not see him as a pushover anymore.
Everyone is sporting that Rainbow coloured Afro in all the sudden he?
*points at GHneko and Matt*
Might still not be enough to make to the TOP 10 but i think people will finally respect Yoshi or at least not see him as a pushover anymore.
Everyone is sporting that Rainbow coloured Afro in all the sudden he?
*points at GHneko and Matt*
Mattnumbers
Smash Master
Its the Dicso Room avatar meme yo.
By the way, I was wondering, what do you guys use to find frame data for moves? I'm writing a Lucas guide for the AiB character boards and I want to find the frame data for his moves that have been sped up. Also I'm just curious how to so that I can supplement my arguments with real data.
EDIT: Chibo I only thought you didn't know because you said it hurts their recovery.
EDIT2: Misspelled Dicso
By the way, I was wondering, what do you guys use to find frame data for moves? I'm writing a Lucas guide for the AiB character boards and I want to find the frame data for his moves that have been sped up. Also I'm just curious how to so that I can supplement my arguments with real data.
EDIT: Chibo I only thought you didn't know because you said it hurts their recovery.
EDIT2: Misspelled Dicso
Frogles
Smash Ace
yoshi still feels too floaty
timothyung
Smash Ace
Use the debug pause code found in the code agenda.
Mattnumbers
Smash Master
Thanks, I thought it was some program or something but I guess it's much simpler.
D
Deleted member
Guest
any ideas for me? my game crashes before I get to the CSS. I choose "Brawl" and it starts to go "EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE"
IC3R
Smash Lord
Re-download the GCT and PAC files?
Just a guess.
Just a guess.
WheelOfFish
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2009
- Messages
- 387
Take out your character texture hacks.
Rion
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2008
- Messages
- 396
I've been tryin' to kind of figure out how Zelda's changes affect her, so this is kind of what I've got:
===
F-Smash (Linking Hits; Reworked):
-Hitbox A: New:[1.15x Size; 1 Dmg; 30->40 KBG-B; 0 BKB; 30∞->1∞; Non-reversible KB; Shifted overtop of Hitbox B to negate horizontal size increase]; Old:[1x Size; 1 Dmg; 100->64 KBG; 0 BKB; 30∞->330∞]
-Hitbox B: New:[1x Size; 1 Dmg; 40->35 KBG-B; 0 BKB; 45∞->1∞]; Old:[1x Size; 1 Dmg; 100->64 KBG; 0 BKB; 45∞->330∞]
-Hitbox C: New:[1x Size; 1 Dmg; 60->25 KBG-B; 0 BKB; 60∞->1∞]; Old:[1x Size; 1 Dmg; 100->64 KBG; 0 BKB; 60∞->200∞]
-Hitbox D: New:[1x Size; 1 Dmg; 80->40 KBG-B; 0 BKB; 160∞->190∞]; Old:[1x Size; 1 Dmg; 100->64 KBG; 0 BKB; 160∞->200∞]
-SDI Capacity Multiplier: 0.50x->0.60x
From what I've been playing with, it seems reliable as usual. I guess with more SDI it's become a tiny bit more easier to survive :x I'm not certain. Ryoko mentioned something about how you need to sweetspot it or something, but I don't remember! Sorry.
U-Smash:
-Linking Hits: Side hitboxes no longer use tripping/tumbling KBs and angles [1x60->0 KBG-B; 0->65 BKB; Angle 200->179]
-Final Hit: Hitbox 0 (top) angle changed to 87 from 90, and increased KBG from 171 to 173 to compensate KO power
-Hitlag Multiplier: 0.50x->0.75x (1st/2nd Loop)
-SDI Capacity Multiplier: 0.10x->0.30x (1st Loop); 0.10x->0.40x (2nd Loop)
OK OK, so... the 90 to 87 angle + the new SDI Capacity + Hit Lag makes it so that it's harder to combo with Zelda's aerials / impossible to combo with if you SDI this well... that's the gist of what I remember talking about with Ryoko. I could be ******** though and gotten it completely wrong ;x sorry!
N-Air:
-Linking hits no longer cause tumble, but are now SDIable
-Hitbox A: New:[1x Size; 2 Dmg; 75->0 KBG-B; 0->55 BKB; 150∞->145∞]
-Hitbox B: New:[1x Size; 2 Dmg; 75->0 KBG-B; 0->55 BKB; 150∞->145∞]
-Hitbox C: New:[1x Size; 2 Dmg; 108->0 KBG-B; 0->63 BKB; 90∞]; Old:[1x Size; 1 Dmg; 108->84 KBG-B; 0 BKB; 90∞]
-Hitbox D: New:[1x Size; 2 Dmg; 45->0 KBG-B; 0->35 BKB; 270∞]
-SDI Capacity Multiplier: 0.00x->0.80x (Linking Hits); 0.00x->1.00x (Final Hit)
Basically the same as before, just with more SDI so it's easier to position yourself before getting launched? Perhaps also links with it's hits better?
F/B-Air (Sweetspot):
-Hitlag Multiplier: 1.50x->1.60x
-SDI Capacity Multiplier: 0.00x->1.00x
SDI + slightly more hitlag = better chance of surviving I'd assume.
D-Air (Flub):
-Foot hitbox reduced to 50 KBG from 70
I heard this was necessary, as her "flub" Dair was turning out to be a better spike than her sweetspot one because of the flub not being able to be meteor canceled and puts you in an animation that you can't really escape out of.
B-Throw:
-KBG reduced by 1 and BKB reduced by 2 from previous setting [118->117 KBG, 32->30 BKB]
Well uh... better slowly adjusted that radically wrong, right?! Still pretty effective.
U-Throw:
-KBG increased by 1 from previous setting [60->61 KBG][Original: 50 KBG]
A small increase... though it's not really a killing throw in the first place. Most likely put in place so she can't follow up with Uair etc unless they're at like, very very low percents which is usually the case these days anyway.
Neutral-B:
-Angle changed from 10 to 175 on front hitboxes to send inward like rear hitboxes (Linking Hits)
-Angle changed from 10 to 5 on rear hitboxes (Linking Hits)
-Linking hits now all use 24 BKB instead of 12 BKB, 40 KBG
-Flags changed from xxx1xxxx->xxx3xxxx (hitboxes A-D)
-Special offensive flags changed from 204FFFC3->004FFFC3 to fix non-existent hitlag (All Hits)
-Hitlag Multiplier: 1.00x->0.75x (1 Damage Linking Hitboxes)
-SDI Capacity Multiplier: 1.00x->0.70x (Linking Hits)
What's that? Nayru's Love doesn't suck nearly as much banana chunks now? >_> Pretty noticeable change in terms of linking hits etc. Obviously still very unsafe on shields, but at least if you hit with it it'll actually hit throughout the whole way now pretty reliably. Pretty happy on this one.
Down-B:
-Zelda’s initial transform animation at 0.45x speed (requires a larger opening to successfully transform), but appearance of Sheik has instant IASA. Removes random loading times as a factor in punishability
This is pretty funny actually, because of how freakishly long you're vulnerable for. But once you turn into the ball of light, you're pretty much safe because of the immediate IASA after transforming. I don't transform at all personally... but I'm pretty sure this is better compared to before.
===
Now onto turning Din's Fire into an aerial C4! Ohoho...
===
F-Smash (Linking Hits; Reworked):
-Hitbox A: New:[1.15x Size; 1 Dmg; 30->40 KBG-B; 0 BKB; 30∞->1∞; Non-reversible KB; Shifted overtop of Hitbox B to negate horizontal size increase]; Old:[1x Size; 1 Dmg; 100->64 KBG; 0 BKB; 30∞->330∞]
-Hitbox B: New:[1x Size; 1 Dmg; 40->35 KBG-B; 0 BKB; 45∞->1∞]; Old:[1x Size; 1 Dmg; 100->64 KBG; 0 BKB; 45∞->330∞]
-Hitbox C: New:[1x Size; 1 Dmg; 60->25 KBG-B; 0 BKB; 60∞->1∞]; Old:[1x Size; 1 Dmg; 100->64 KBG; 0 BKB; 60∞->200∞]
-Hitbox D: New:[1x Size; 1 Dmg; 80->40 KBG-B; 0 BKB; 160∞->190∞]; Old:[1x Size; 1 Dmg; 100->64 KBG; 0 BKB; 160∞->200∞]
-SDI Capacity Multiplier: 0.50x->0.60x
From what I've been playing with, it seems reliable as usual. I guess with more SDI it's become a tiny bit more easier to survive :x I'm not certain. Ryoko mentioned something about how you need to sweetspot it or something, but I don't remember! Sorry.
U-Smash:
-Linking Hits: Side hitboxes no longer use tripping/tumbling KBs and angles [1x60->0 KBG-B; 0->65 BKB; Angle 200->179]
-Final Hit: Hitbox 0 (top) angle changed to 87 from 90, and increased KBG from 171 to 173 to compensate KO power
-Hitlag Multiplier: 0.50x->0.75x (1st/2nd Loop)
-SDI Capacity Multiplier: 0.10x->0.30x (1st Loop); 0.10x->0.40x (2nd Loop)
OK OK, so... the 90 to 87 angle + the new SDI Capacity + Hit Lag makes it so that it's harder to combo with Zelda's aerials / impossible to combo with if you SDI this well... that's the gist of what I remember talking about with Ryoko. I could be ******** though and gotten it completely wrong ;x sorry!
N-Air:
-Linking hits no longer cause tumble, but are now SDIable
-Hitbox A: New:[1x Size; 2 Dmg; 75->0 KBG-B; 0->55 BKB; 150∞->145∞]
-Hitbox B: New:[1x Size; 2 Dmg; 75->0 KBG-B; 0->55 BKB; 150∞->145∞]
-Hitbox C: New:[1x Size; 2 Dmg; 108->0 KBG-B; 0->63 BKB; 90∞]; Old:[1x Size; 1 Dmg; 108->84 KBG-B; 0 BKB; 90∞]
-Hitbox D: New:[1x Size; 2 Dmg; 45->0 KBG-B; 0->35 BKB; 270∞]
-SDI Capacity Multiplier: 0.00x->0.80x (Linking Hits); 0.00x->1.00x (Final Hit)
Basically the same as before, just with more SDI so it's easier to position yourself before getting launched? Perhaps also links with it's hits better?
F/B-Air (Sweetspot):
-Hitlag Multiplier: 1.50x->1.60x
-SDI Capacity Multiplier: 0.00x->1.00x
SDI + slightly more hitlag = better chance of surviving I'd assume.
D-Air (Flub):
-Foot hitbox reduced to 50 KBG from 70
I heard this was necessary, as her "flub" Dair was turning out to be a better spike than her sweetspot one because of the flub not being able to be meteor canceled and puts you in an animation that you can't really escape out of.
B-Throw:
-KBG reduced by 1 and BKB reduced by 2 from previous setting [118->117 KBG, 32->30 BKB]
Well uh... better slowly adjusted that radically wrong, right?!
Still pretty effective.U-Throw:
-KBG increased by 1 from previous setting [60->61 KBG][Original: 50 KBG]
A small increase... though it's not really a killing throw in the first place. Most likely put in place so she can't follow up with Uair etc unless they're at like, very very low percents which is usually the case these days anyway.
Neutral-B:
-Angle changed from 10 to 175 on front hitboxes to send inward like rear hitboxes (Linking Hits)
-Angle changed from 10 to 5 on rear hitboxes (Linking Hits)
-Linking hits now all use 24 BKB instead of 12 BKB, 40 KBG
-Flags changed from xxx1xxxx->xxx3xxxx (hitboxes A-D)
-Special offensive flags changed from 204FFFC3->004FFFC3 to fix non-existent hitlag (All Hits)
-Hitlag Multiplier: 1.00x->0.75x (1 Damage Linking Hitboxes)
-SDI Capacity Multiplier: 1.00x->0.70x (Linking Hits)
What's that? Nayru's Love doesn't suck nearly as much banana chunks now? >_> Pretty noticeable change in terms of linking hits etc. Obviously still very unsafe on shields, but at least if you hit with it it'll actually hit throughout the whole way now pretty reliably. Pretty happy on this one.
Down-B:
-Zelda’s initial transform animation at 0.45x speed (requires a larger opening to successfully transform), but appearance of Sheik has instant IASA. Removes random loading times as a factor in punishability
This is pretty funny actually, because of how freakishly long you're vulnerable for. But once you turn into the ball of light, you're pretty much safe because of the immediate IASA after transforming. I don't transform at all personally... but I'm pretty sure this is better compared to before.
===
Now onto turning Din's Fire into an aerial C4! Ohoho...
Zelda + Shiek transforms are unpunishable on USB Loaded Brawl+
I was able to DJ off Smashville platform, transform Shiek > Zelda > Shiek > Zelda, and still up B to right under the ledge (still SD'd but it was retardedly close)
fffffff wtf
I was able to DJ off Smashville platform, transform Shiek > Zelda > Shiek > Zelda, and still up B to right under the ledge (still SD'd but it was retardedly close)
fffffff wtf
CloneHat
Smash Champion
Isn't the new animation supposed to standardize transform times?
JCaesar
Smash Hero
What? Flash drives are faster than external hard drives. Solid state wins every time.
WheelOfFish
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2009
- Messages
- 387
The first transformation takes longest, and then the following don't take nearly as long. Maybe Brawl had already loaded both Shiek and Zelda's models?
Really? My bad. Then wtf @ Bionic Sonic.
Oh well. My Wii DVD drive doesn't function anymore, so there's no point to it.
KOkingpin
Smash Champion
i have a couple things i wanna ask about
why didnt Peach also get Double jump canceling? I think it would open up her game even more. Was it decided that she just plainly didnt need it?
Will Meteor canceling ever be added in to Brawl+? Just thinking about it I know that Spiking someone is rewarding but not having a chance to recover in most cases is a little unbalaced. Im not even sure if you guys had brought this up.
my cloud of darkness needs a Rainbow afro now.....
why didnt Peach also get Double jump canceling? I think it would open up her game even more. Was it decided that she just plainly didnt need it?
Will Meteor canceling ever be added in to Brawl+? Just thinking about it I know that Spiking someone is rewarding but not having a chance to recover in most cases is a little unbalaced. Im not even sure if you guys had brought this up.
my cloud of darkness needs a Rainbow afro now.....
SymphonicSage12
Smash Master
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2009
- Messages
- 3,299
1. peach doesn't need it. She has low floating, which is better.
2. Meteor cancelling is in brawl and brawl+. You just can't cancel immediately.
2. Meteor cancelling is in brawl and brawl+. You just can't cancel immediately.
1. ...Is Peach a mother character?
2. Be prepared to heavily rebalance Peach lol
3. ...There are like no spikes in Brawl+
However some meteors are strong enough so that you are unable to recover after getting hit by one with the current MC system (required to wait out half of meteor's stun; because hitstun is always cancelable after the attack's launch in vB, MCing was more potent).
colored blind
Smash Journeyman
I'm more confused as to why Lucas doesn't have DJC, but I feel like I may have missed a conversation on it somewhere in this topic...
Though the Zair thing is pretty neat. I'll need to play with a bit more to figure when to use it.
Though the Zair thing is pretty neat. I'll need to play with a bit more to figure when to use it.
stingers
Smash Obsessed
LUCAS DOESNT NEED DJC
i didn't need to use those caps either. i wasn't yelling
i didn't need to use those caps either. i wasn't yelling
So you want a Ness Clone?
colored blind
Smash Journeyman
No. I was just wondering because they have similar jumps. I don't think I ever said I wanted it, did I?
Neko please read my old posts when I was not fully on board the "Nice Asia Boat" regarding clones:
http://www.smashboards.com/news/blogs/103608/900/cloneswhy-do-people-care
It's a pretty good read about how freshman nublets interpret Smash Bros.
Bad grammar and all son.
http://www.smashboards.com/news/blogs/103608/900/cloneswhy-do-people-care
It's a pretty good read about how freshman nublets interpret Smash Bros.
Bad grammar and all son.
Doval
Smash Lord
Pardon me for asking twice, but it seems the first time I asked the comment went unnoticed (guess that's what I get for editing it into a big post instead of making a new post for it.) Sonic can cancel HA into his mid-air jump on hit; is this intentional or not? Changelog only says he can cancel into other B moves.
Also, regarding this:
Even with buffering it's impractically hard to do with a default button config. The only way to get it reliably is to remap some buttons so Jump and Special are right next to each other (I already do this because of needing a convenient way to Up B out of shield without Tap Jump, and because of Sonic's spinshot; I have X set to Special so I can do Y->X quickly.) Of course on top of all that you need to be facing backwards, so the only way to use this during an approach is to do a turn-around shorthop, which complicates things a bit.
I imagine that the WBR opted for this frame-perfect timing to prevent Shine->F-air from being possible at all, correct? F-air is only 1 frame slower than b-air, so unless the b-air were sped up or f-air were slowed down, increasing the margin of error for the shine->b-air by even just 1 frame would enable Wolf to shine->f-air grounded opponents.
P.S. Frame 14 of subaction 1E3 is frame 24 of the move. Wolf's jump has 4 frames of start-up, so the minimum buffer that will guarantee a shine during the dead frame is 3. A higher buffer will help you nail the b-air IASA, though.
Personally I'm starting to feel buffering (at least, a buffer that can go as high as 10 frames) is a bit lame from a competitive point of view. But I guess even if others felt the same, it'd probably be more trouble than it's worth to remove. Don't mind me, I'm just thinking out loud.
Also, regarding this:
Just a heads-up here. SH shine to b-air is literally impossible to do without buffering. The only way to do it is to shine on the first frame Wolf is airborne AND b-air precisely on the IASA frame, or he'll land just before the b-air comes out. And I do mean impossible - even if a human could time it, the game wouldn't let you do it. The first frame Wolf is airborne is the jump's dead frame. The only way to do an action on the dead frame is to have buffered it beforehand during the jump's start-up.
Even with buffering it's impractically hard to do with a default button config. The only way to get it reliably is to remap some buttons so Jump and Special are right next to each other (I already do this because of needing a convenient way to Up B out of shield without Tap Jump, and because of Sonic's spinshot; I have X set to Special so I can do Y->X quickly.) Of course on top of all that you need to be facing backwards, so the only way to use this during an approach is to do a turn-around shorthop, which complicates things a bit.
I imagine that the WBR opted for this frame-perfect timing to prevent Shine->F-air from being possible at all, correct? F-air is only 1 frame slower than b-air, so unless the b-air were sped up or f-air were slowed down, increasing the margin of error for the shine->b-air by even just 1 frame would enable Wolf to shine->f-air grounded opponents.
P.S. Frame 14 of subaction 1E3 is frame 24 of the move. Wolf's jump has 4 frames of start-up, so the minimum buffer that will guarantee a shine during the dead frame is 3. A higher buffer will help you nail the b-air IASA, though.
Personally I'm starting to feel buffering (at least, a buffer that can go as high as 10 frames) is a bit lame from a competitive point of view. But I guess even if others felt the same, it'd probably be more trouble than it's worth to remove. Don't mind me, I'm just thinking out loud.
cubaisdeath
Smash Lord
man have you ever used her double jump? that **** might as well be a DJC lol
Mattnumbers
Smash Master
When I quoted this I only saw the first sentence there, but I agree regardless. I think buffer should be cut down to 6ish frames max, and I don't believe this would be all that hard to implement (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong)
Revven
FrankerZ
It would be hard to implement. There are no willing hackers available to do it.
kthxbi.
Edit: And you must also consider WiFi with this equation. WiFi does NOT work well in an environment of 5 frames of buffer or lower. 10 frames I know for a fact is used a lot on WiFi as it is because of how terribly laggy it is.
It would be so confusing to have two sets yet again just because some people think the buffer shouldn't go up to 10 frames.
kthxbi.
Edit: And you must also consider WiFi with this equation. WiFi does NOT work well in an environment of 5 frames of buffer or lower. 10 frames I know for a fact is used a lot on WiFi as it is because of how terribly laggy it is.
It would be so confusing to have two sets yet again just because some people think the buffer shouldn't go up to 10 frames.
Way to cut into people's personal preference. That and alot of player prefer Brawl's buffer because that's what they learn this game on. <_<
Forcing something like 6 frames max is mad gay, especially when you play online, low buffer is dumb.
Forcing something like 6 frames max is mad gay, especially when you play online, low buffer is dumb.
Mattnumbers
Smash Master
How did you get the buffer to be 1-10 then?
Low buffer means that there can never really be an input with a window of less that 11 frames w/ full buffer. So I guess what we really need is a way to remove buffer from certain moves.
Low buffer means that there can never really be an input with a window of less that 11 frames w/ full buffer. So I guess what we really need is a way to remove buffer from certain moves.
Why would you limit buffering?
Personal preference is a good thing as far as I'm concerned.
I like playing 10 buffer because it was what I was used to after over a year of Brawl before going full +. Why should I be forced to play with a maximum of 6 frames and forced to play with a less "perfect" feel for my own desires?
With that logic, we should say this as well, "Guys, I think at the same time we should get rid of tweaking your controls. Force everybody to play with default settings, tap jump on. You shouldn't be able to play with settings that maximize your ability to play."
EDIT: Ninja'd by more than one person... That's a first for me :V
Personal preference is a good thing as far as I'm concerned.
I like playing 10 buffer because it was what I was used to after over a year of Brawl before going full +. Why should I be forced to play with a maximum of 6 frames and forced to play with a less "perfect" feel for my own desires?
With that logic, we should say this as well, "Guys, I think at the same time we should get rid of tweaking your controls. Force everybody to play with default settings, tap jump on. You shouldn't be able to play with settings that maximize your ability to play."
EDIT: Ninja'd by more than one person... That's a first for me :V
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