Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[Mattnumbers]

Because all buffering really does is make things easier; except certain cases (Wolf Shine -> Bair) Its possible to do anything you can do at 10 buffer with none.

And I understand the controller reference, but I think that is going a lot farther than cutting off 4 frames from input windows.

 

[GHNeko]

Because all custom controls really does is make things easier, except certain cases (:V -> V: ) Its possible to do anything you can do with custom controls with default controls.

c wut i did thurrrrrr

 

[Mattnumbers]

c wut i did thurrrrrr

Yep, I actually thought of that exact sentence, but I think that making you need to be 4 frames more accurate with your inputs is less of a big deal than not letting you customize controls. I even put that in my last post hoping to avoid someone making that exact post, but alas

EDIT: Also, no custom controls = no B-sticking, which is a lot more than no shine-bair with wolf.

 

[stingers]

matt

why u mad?

 

[Doval]

This's why I said "Don't mind me, thinking out loud," heh. I feel it's lame because it removes timing from competitive play, and as a result when the WBR comes up with something that will have a "tight timing," it needs to be impractically tight to account for buffering (see this case, which requires frame-perfect execution). There's very few hard button inputs that can't be watered down significantly with buffer usage.

But of course I realize this is a complex issue (wasn't even thinking of Wifi at the time I posted), that's why I said that even if you guys agreed (and I figured you wouldn't,) it'd likely be too much trouble to remove. Removing it would mean having to re-evaluate the timing and viability of any techniques that made heavy use of the buffer to perform consistently. It might have been possible to remove the buffer early into B+'s life but I didn't think for a second it has a reasonable shot of being changed at this point.

I'll just accept it as a necessary "evil."

P.S. I realize you're also responding to Mattnumbers, I just wanted to explain the rationale behind my comment.

 

[Mattnumbers]

matt

why u mad?

cuz i dun liek high buffer

 

[GHNeko]

Its not a matter of how big a deal it is, but of the general principle of you know, cutting into people's comfort zone to make it harder on them for no real good reason.

Also...

Because all ALR really does is make things easier; except certain cases (Durp -> Hurrr) Its possible to do anything you can do wtih ALR with Manual L-Canceling.

I can do this alll day.

 

[leafgreen386]

Before I go into a huge quote wall, I just want to say that LopTank gets the most epic newbie award of the thread.

Falco, more impressions: I love his new physics, his SHL is awesome. As for his uTilt change, I think it's a great fix, I mean, the purpose of it was to retain comboability at the cost of reducing uTilt self-comboing.

In my experince, Falco's much slower uTilt makes it very difficult in a GTFO me moment. He could still uTilt, and hope his speed is comparable with the openents options, or, as I've found, he'll often be beat out. I fight a ZSS quite a bit, my only safe option, so it seams, is trying to out jab her. Her uTilt comes out much faster than Falco's, her dTilt also comes out extremely quickly, and is great for shield pressure. She also has good jabs. Basically when caught up close by a chracter whose combos ream fast falling spacies there aren't too many options to get them off of you.

I generally try SH Nair, when I'm closely engaged, uTilt, or jab. I've never found the ZSS, and Wolf matchups to be as difficult for Falco as I have in this build. Another problem against some characters is actually being able to finish them. Once the enemy's damage is too high uAir can't reach. Not to mention the fact that it's hard to land and the flub hits have virtually no knockback. His Bair is fine as is, though it's only able to ko near the edge. His Dair would be a fine KOing option if it wasn't so darn easy to cancel meteors. It's so aggravating when I actually pull off a Dair spike combo and ZSS effortlessly cancels it with an upwards tether.

I don't know if it's just me. Just puttig my thoughts out there. But I think Falco could use a better aerial finisher, either a tweak to Fair, or making Uair more reliable.. Fixing some o the flub hits. I'm not about a GTFO option. UTilt was nice before, he still has his jab.. But I dunno. I'd love if the Dtilt was sped up by a very small amount, to make it more viable up close. Usually other moves are much faster and beat it out.

Falco's utilt is still just as useful as it was before for getting a foe off of you that's in close quarters. It still comes out frame 4, and it still hits the second time frame 12. The only difference now is that instead of being able to go into anything, you can now only go into a jump afterward if you don't want to be sitting in it for the full 36 frames of the attack. You just can't repeatedly utilt anymore and hope that one of the hitboxes connects before you get hit.

That's also highly relative. Mario has also been capable of some very high speeds in all his 2D games, for instance. Yet in his 3D games, his running speed is drastically slower. So what happened there?

Moreover, what is your reference for Falcon's speed? We don't know just how fast he is. For all you know, he would put Samus to shame at sprinting if he had cameo'd in Super Metroid. The only thing we have to go on is his absurd running speed relative to other Smash characters.Again, this is a universal platformer game mechanic/convention; it has nothing to do with Samus or Metroid directly. It's a feature that practically needs to be in the game, because Ghouls and Goblins-style jumping is not fun. Nobody would seriously suggest that Mario or Sonic or Kirby should be able to hop as low as they want just because they can do that in their games, so I don't see why you would assert this for Samus.

Regardless of whether you're right or wrong about her run speed, it's still besides the point. Canon or not, she wouldn't be given ridiculous dash speed because it would be unbalanced. However, what's the balance problem with Samus's current floatiness level? As far as I remember not one person who complained about her floatiness gave any reasoning behind the complaint. So, what, they simply don't like it?Out of curiosity how do you tweak the stun without touching the damage? BKB?

EDIT: I *may* have found something else. I can cancel Sonic's HA into mid-air jump on hit. I thought the cancel was just for Side B and Down B?

...why are you still arguing about samus physics when I already dropped the topic? And I already said (twice) that canon =/= balance.

As for the sonic HA... I know that was one of the things that was being talked about. I dunno if it was accidentally left in or just forgotten on the changelist, though.

i have a couple things i wanna ask about

why didnt Peach also get Double jump canceling? I think it would open up her game even more. Was it decided that she just plainly didnt need it?

Will Meteor canceling ever be added in to Brawl+? Just thinking about it I know that Spiking someone is rewarding but not having a chance to recover in most cases is a little unbalaced. Im not even sure if you guys had brought this up.

my cloud of darkness needs a Rainbow afro now.....

Peach didn't get DJC for two reasons: 1) it's useless for her, 2) it's less than useless for her, and 3) we forgot about it. But just ignore that last one and focus on the fact that it's fricking worthless for her.

Pardon me for asking twice, but it seems the first time I asked the comment went unnoticed (guess that's what I get for editing it into a big post instead of making a new post for it.) Sonic can cancel HA into his mid-air jump on hit; is this intentional or not? Changelog only says he can cancel into other B moves.

Also, regarding this:Just a heads-up here. SH shine to b-air is literally impossible to do without buffering. The only way to do it is to shine on the first frame Wolf is airborne AND b-air precisely on the IASA frame, or he'll land just before the b-air comes out. And I do mean impossible - even if a human could time it, the game wouldn't let you do it. The first frame Wolf is airborne is the jump's dead frame. The only way to do an action on the dead frame is to have buffered it beforehand during the jump's start-up.

Even with buffering it's impractically hard to do with a default button config. The only way to get it reliably is to remap some buttons so Jump and Special are right next to each other (I already do this because of needing a convenient way to Up B out of shield without Tap Jump, and because of Sonic's spinshot; I have X set to Special so I can do Y->X quickly.) Of course on top of all that you need to be facing backwards, so the only way to use this during an approach is to do a turn-around shorthop, which complicates things a bit.

I imagine that the WBR opted for this frame-perfect timing to prevent Shine->F-air from being possible at all, correct? F-air is only 1 frame slower than b-air, so unless the b-air were sped up or f-air were slowed down, increasing the margin of error for the shine->b-air by even just 1 frame would enable Wolf to shine->f-air grounded opponents.

P.S. Frame 14 of subaction 1E3 is frame 24 of the move. Wolf's jump has 4 frames of start-up, so the minimum buffer that will guarantee a shine during the dead frame is 3. A higher buffer will help you nail the b-air IASA, though.

Personally I'm starting to feel buffering (at least, a buffer that can go as high as 10 frames) is a bit lame from a competitive point of view. But I guess even if others felt the same, it'd probably be more trouble than it's worth to remove. Don't mind me, I'm just thinking out loud.

Well, I can't say that wolf's shine -> bair was intentionally made to only be doable with buffer, but it was indeed intentional for it to be frame perfect. I was actually afraid I had messed up and was off by a frame, so it's good to see someone verify that. We didn't want shine -> fair to be a valid combo on a grounded foe, since it would be pretty broken.

In related news, we are trying to remove the dead frame on jumps, but it may take some time. When we get it, you can be sure it will be released as a patch.

edit: Also, on the topic of things having "tight timings." The main purpose of something having tight timing is to isolate your usage of that technique to certain specific times. You can only execute wolf's shine -> bair on a grounded opponent by shining immediately after you leave the ground and then bairing asap. This not only prevents shine -> fair, but it also highly restricts the times you can use shine -> bair in, as well. If you could cancel the shine into anything immediately on hit (nevermind the fact that it would be broken) you would be able to execute shine -> bair in many more situations with many different timings and positionings. Even if something with "tight timing" becomes comparatively easier with buffer, it still retains the purpose of having a limiting factor on when you can use the technique.

 

[RyuReiatsu]

I'd say these are tradeoffs.

High buffer = Situations like Ike N-Air suicide.
Low buffer = Needs better timing and practice.

 

[Plum]

Yep, I actually thought of that exact sentence, but I think that making you need to be 4 frames more accurate with your inputs is less of a big deal than not letting you customize controls. I even put that in my last post hoping to avoid someone making that exact post, but alas

EDIT: Also, no custom controls = no B-sticking, which is a lot more than no shine-bair with wolf.

B sticking is fully possible without a B stick... I find smashes/aerials to be a much better usage of my C-stick so I learned to deal without.
Literally EVERYTHING one controller setting can do can be done on another controller setting, it just may require more precision. The only exception I have ever heard of is Lucario's Up B problem with tap jump.

 

[zxeon]

High amounts of buffer serve as training wheels. If you use lots of buffer you will never truly learn to play the game.

 

[Marth175]

This is kinda off topic but theres a bug with wolfs upB, where if the final hit box does not connect the opponent freezes and cannot move temporarily

 

[VietGeek]

This also only happens if the connection fails on a grounded foe right (or if the foe is sent to the ground from being swept by the move)?

 

[Doval]

We didn't want shine -> fair to be a valid combo on a grounded foe, since it would be pretty broken.

Figures. I'm really not a Wolf user (I've just been going through the change list and trying out the new stuff, and was perplexed at my inability to shine->b-air) but I can see how that'd be pretty stupid.

In related news, we are trying to remove the dead frame on jumps, but it may take some time. When we get it, you can be sure it will be released as a patch.

I will love you (plural, whomever is involved in this effort) forever if you pull it off.

 

[Revven]

This is kinda off topic but theres a bug with wolfs upB, where if the final hit box does not connect the opponent freezes and cannot move temporarily

Never happened to me when I used Wolf's Up B and the final hitbox didn't connect.

 

[GPDP]

In related news, we are trying to remove the dead frame on jumps, but it may take some time. When we get it, you can be sure it will be released as a patch.

oh god finally

 

[Marth175]

This also only happens if the connection fails on a grounded foe right (or if the foe is sent to the ground from being swept by the move)?

yeah exactly, it usually tends to happen on light characters at low percentages and on heavy characters at high percentages

 

[GHNeko]

High amounts of buffer serve as training wheels. If you use lots of buffer you will never truly learn to play the game.

I disagree actually. V:

Learning the game is more about what happens on screen rather than what happens under the game.

It's like Competitive DDR. You have Bar, and you have No Bar. Technically, you need better balance, knowledge of the song, higher stamina, and leg strength to play well with no Bar, where as Bar, you can simply support your body, allowing you play harder songs with less leg strength and stamina and what not, and is generally called a "nub bar". In the long run, you'd be better off with No Bar due to the benefits because you're exercising more... But in the end, what matters is the score on the screen. If you lose to a Bar, when you're a no bar. It's not because he used the bar that he won. It's because his results were better and he out performed you.

 

[stingers]

ghneko your sig is top tier

 

[GHNeko]

I almost fell out of my chair from how hard I lol'd.

 

[Marth175]

Never happened to me when I used Wolf's Up B and the final hitbox didn't connect.

The opponent has to be touching the ground

 

[Shadic]

It's like Competitive DDR. You have Bar, and you have No Bar. Technically, you need better balance, knowledge of the song, higher stamina, and leg strength to play well with no Bar, where as Bar, you can simply support your body, allowing you play harder songs with less leg strength and stamina and what not, and is generally called a "nub bar". In the long run, you'd be better off with No Bar due to the benefits because you're exercising more... But in the end, what matters is the score on the screen. If you lose to a Bar, when you're a no bar. It's not because he used the bar that he won. It's because his results were better and he out performed you.

We need more comparisons between Brawl+ (Or Smash in General) and DDR.

GET TO IT, PEOPLE.

 

[jokey665]

We need more comparisons between Brawl+ (Or Smash in General) and DDR.

GET TO IT, PEOPLE.

Agree'd. Smash and DDR are the only games I play competitively anymore.

 

[Doval]

Something else has been bugging me.

King Dedede
F-Tilt:
-6 dmg hit does 9 additional damage to shields, and 4 dmg hit an additional 6

When you say shield damage, are you referring to the actual value for remaining shield that the game stores internally (which, going from the Code Agenda thread, is 50 when the shield is maxed?) Or does that mean that the attack will behave like its % is 9/6 higher when the shield damage is calculated?

We need more comparisons between Brawl+ (Or Smash in General) and DDR.

I just imagined Brawl+ with a Combo gauge and "Perfect/Great/Good/Almost/Boo/N.G. (for grab breaks)" on each hit.

 

[Marth175]

omg found yet another glitch, with yoshis djc if you djc low on the ground into Bair yoshi freezes into his special fall animation a glides through the stage and out of the stage , meaning infinite horizontal distance while in this state, he doesnt fall even if he is out of the stage

 

[zxeon]

omg found yet another glitch, with yoshis djc if you djc low on the ground into Bair yoshi freezes into his special fall animation a glides through the stage

You're late to the party on that one Marth175.

 

[Marth175]

You're late to the party on that one Marth175.

any luck on a fix?

 

[shanus]

omg found yet another glitch, with yoshis djc if you djc low on the ground into Bair yoshi freezes into his special fall animation a glides through the stage and out of the stage , meaning infinite horizontal distance while in this state, he doesnt fall even if he is out of the stage

we know, it'll be fixed in the next patch

 

[Marth175]

ok, might as well take the chance to ask why is onett town not working?

 

[Revven]

ok, might as well take the chance to ask why is onett town not working?

Probably because you messed up your My Music page on that specific stage. If it freezes when you select it or no music is playing on it, that means you need to reset that My Music page with the My Music Reset code for Onett.

 

[Marth175]

Ok ill try that out, I guess ill shut up now since i think Ive bothered enough

 

[Dan_X]

This is kinda off topic but theres a bug with wolfs upB, where if the final hit box does not connect the opponent freezes and cannot move temporarily

Is that how this happens? I was Falco versus my friend's Wolf and after he hit me (I think it may have been with up+b) I was totally frozen in place. Hmm.

 

[KOkingpin]

honestly I don't see how Peach not being a Mother char is relevant to her having Double jump cancel. (See yoshi) also how do you know it would be useless for her unless you have tried it. Have you? If so I would like to try it out. I think it would help her have a more aggressive approach really then just Floating above someone and nipping at the shield. Instead of Going upward on her second jump or Floating with Nairs she could do a DJC Nair and attack that way or DJC Fair. I could be pretty good unless her new second jump making it not work out.

Also about Lucas getting DJC - I don't think he should have that and I don't think Ness should get Zap Jump. It should be one has DJC and the other has Zap Jump. Character specific would be nice. Just my Input on that though.

As for meteor canceling I know you cant Meteor Cancel and survive Ganon, CF, Wolf, DK (Fair or Dair) and Samus (not 100% on this one though) at 0%. that's a little ridiculous. I know hitting them at 0 is far-fetched but You should be able to cancel it with precise timing at decent percentages. Again im fine with things being the way they are I just think it would add more depth to the game.

 

[bob-e]

Buffer =/= custom controls.
The adjustable buffer isn't like remapping the buttons, it doesn't just change where you have to move your fingers, it changes how accurate you have to be with your fingers. More than anything else, the buffer lets you be sloppy with timing and still have your attacks link together like a pro. If it's possible to fix all the instances where buffering is absolutely required, then I think it should be removed. If that can't be done, then a limit should be placed on the buffer so it can't go any higher than the absolute minimum to make all comboes work.

The buffer is a big part of what makes Brawl+ so ez mode overall, because even if the frame advantage on an attack is very small, or the timing to preform something is extremely tight, in most cases the buffer gives the player a big easy window to hit. Things that can easily be done just by mashing buttons like double fair combos with Marth, or a perfect IAP from Falco actually take some careful timing without the buffer.

 

[Sulfur]

Is that how this happens? I was Falco versus my friend's Wolf and after he hit me (I think it may have been with up+b) I was totally frozen in place. Hmm.

I've had this multiple times, with one resulting in an offstage death

 

[thesage]

Ness' zap jump /=/ Lucas' zap jump. Lucas' is vertical and only works with pk fire.

 

[Doval]

honestly I don't see how Peach not being a Mother char is relevant to her having Double jump cancel. (See yoshi)

Yoshi had DJC in Melee. So did Ness. Hence why they both got it back.

also how do you know it would be useless for her unless you have tried it.

Because float does everything DJC can and more? I may be wrong here but it's generally better to stop your upwards momentum and not fall (float) than to stop it and fall (DJC). But even if it weren't better, you can still do a ghetto DJC simply by starting a float to cut off her second jump and then letting her drop.

It would be redundant and useless.

 

[Swordplay]

That yoshi thing happened to me in a match today.....kind of annoying.....

When IS the next patch?

 

[Viquey]

I can't imagine a Peach DJC. I mean, her second jump is... nothing to speak of, really. What's to cancel? O.o

Also, I beg of you, don't remove/lessen the buffer. The game requires more skill than super-duper button-pressing precision, which is something that just may not come naturally to many otherwise very skilled players. Why place such emphasis on that kind of precision when there are so many other aspects of the game to learn and master?

And not only that, but it's preference. I COULD and sometimes DO play with little to no buffer, but I just PREFER higher buffers. It feels better and more fluid. I can worry less about perfect button pressing timing, or something I was SURE I timed correctly not happening because I was a freakin' 60th of a second off, and focus more on paying attention to the gameplay itself.

Not to mention the differences between Melee players and vBrawl players--neither is naturally more skilled than the other, but considering the game they play the most, they have their preferences. They've adapted their playstyles to the settings they're used to and prefer. Why effectively gimp half of your player base?

Lastly, if you won't buy the custom controls/button mapping analogy, perhaps you'll buy an analogy to changing the Wiimote sensitivity in FPS's? For instance, the Prime trilogy on wii. you can change the HUD lag, the remote sensitivity, etc. to your individual preferences. Maybe higher sensitivity WOULD require more precision, but what if you just have shaky hands? Or, hell, what if it just feels unnatural to you at that sensitivity? So if the game forced you to use that setting, it would take away a LOT of your enjoyment, would it not?

so tl;dr:
Keep buffer plzkthx. There's more to the game than button-pressing precision.

... :V

 

[GPDP]

Buffer =/= custom controls.
The adjustable buffer isn't like remapping the buttons, it doesn't just change where you have to move your fingers, it changes how accurate you have to be with your fingers. More than anything else, the buffer lets you be sloppy with timing and still have your attacks link together like a pro. If it's possible to fix all the instances where buffering is absolutely required, then I think it should be removed. If that can't be done, then a limit should be placed on the buffer so it can't go any higher than the absolute minimum to make all comboes work.

The buffer is a big part of what makes Brawl+ so ez mode overall, because even if the frame advantage on an attack is very small, or the timing to preform something is extremely tight, in most cases the buffer gives the player a big easy window to hit. Things that can easily be done just by mashing buttons like double fair combos with Marth, or a perfect IAP from Falco actually take some careful timing without the buffer.

To be fair, there are some definite disadvantages to using buffer. The most obvious is the Ike nair example and other such instances of unwanted actions being buffered. Other negative effects include crouching after a shffl and turning around upon landing after performing a bair close to the ground.

The only times I use buffer is to be able to do some quite difficult inputs such as Marth's double fair and Ganon's thunderstorm. And even then I try to use a buffer of 5 or less, because I absolutely loathe anything higher than that. And I suspect once we get rid of the dead frame in 0 buffer, I may not even use buffer at all.