Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[Dan_X]

Also, I beg of you, don't remove/lessen the buffer. The game requires more skill than super-duper button-pressing precision, which is something that just may not come naturally to many otherwise very skilled players. Why place such emphasis on that kind of precision when there are so many other aspects of the game to learn and master?

This.

Buffer should be a preference. Sorry.

 

[zxeon]

To be fair, there are some definite disadvantages to using buffer. The most obvious is the Ike nair example and other such instances of unwanted actions being buffered. Other negative effects include crouching after a shffl and turning around upon landing after performing a bair close to the ground.

The only times I use buffer is to be able to do some quite difficult inputs such as Marth's double fair and Ganon's thunderstorm. And even then I try to use a buffer of 5 or less, because I absolutely loathe anything higher than that. And I suspect once we get rid of the dead frame in 0 buffer, I may not even use buffer at all.

There are no real disadvantages to using high amounts of buffer. It's easy mode. If someone who uses a buffer of say five frames went down to one frame the frustration they would suffer from trying to get their attacks to come out on landing and catching those IASA frames will be enough for some to rage quit. If you use high buffer and don't believe me lower your buffer to one frame then tell me how you did.

 

[bob-e]

The only times I use buffer is to be able to do some quite difficult inputs such as Marth's double fair and Ganon's thunderstorm.

That's exactly my point. When you run into a situation where you need to quickly preform one action after another with good timing, you have two options. You can either take the time and effort to learn it, or just turn up the buffer.

 

[KOkingpin]

Yoshi had DJC in Melee. So did Ness. Hence why they both got it back.

Peach also had DJC ya know. You ever see a peach player do the Lawnmower lol.

Because float does everything DJC can and more? I may be wrong here but it's generally better to stop your upwards momentum and not fall (float) than to stop it and fall (DJC). But even if it weren't better, you can still do a ghetto DJC simply by starting a float to cut off her second jump and then letting her drop.

It would be redundant and useless.

It doesnt really do everything that DJC can. With ALR and DJC Nairs you could effectively do the same thing as the lawnmower in Melee with it. Sure Peach's Double jumps sucks, But i dont see how adding DJC for peach is useless. You really won't know until its tested by someone. If someone could do this (Like I said before) id love to try it out.

 

[metaXzero]

At this point, I don't see the WBR removing the selectable buffer in favor of no buffer/a single universal buffer of so-and-so frames. Most like the choice and wouldn't like being forced into some arbitrary set of frames or losing it completely.

 

[zxeon]

I can't imagine a Peach DJC. I mean, her second jump is... nothing to speak of, really. What's to cancel? O.o

Also, I beg of you, don't remove/lessen the buffer. The game requires more skill than super-duper button-pressing precision, which is something that just may not come naturally to many otherwise very skilled players. Why place such emphasis on that kind of precision when there are so many other aspects of the game to learn and master?

Super-duper button-pressing precision is the first thing you need to learn. That's what "playing" is. What did you think practice was for?

Imagine if a pianist could just hit the right keys without any rhythm but the piano would correct the tempo for him. Is that fair to the player or other competitors who aren't using an auto-pilot keyboard?

 

[KOkingpin]

Super-duper button-pressing precision is the first thing you need to learn. That's what "playing" is. What did you think practice was for?

Imagine if a pianist could just hit the right keys without any rhythm but the piano would correct the tempo for him. Is that fair to the player or other competitors who aren't using an auto-pilot keyboard?

You're a Phony! Hey everybody this guy is a phony!

 

[lord karn]

Super-duper button-pressing precision is the first thing you need to learn. That's what "playing" is. What did you think practice was for?

Imagine if a pianist could just hit the right keys without any rhythm but the piano would correct the tempo for him. Is that fair to the player or other competitors who aren't using an auto-pilot keyboard?

If I want to play a super technical game, I'd just play Melee. In fact, I already do. It's already an amazing game that is also super technical.

One of the original conceptions of B+ was making a great game that is open to lots of different people. Buffering helps that. If buffering was removed I'd probably just play melee pretty much exclusively. @_@

 

[zxeon]

By the way all my analogies are competitions, even if I don't say so in the analogy itself it is safe to assume so unless stated otherwise.

 

[camelot]

People are complaining about buffer, now? It's never been complained about since the handicap-buffer code was made. Except now.

Similar deal with Samus' physics. This last build is the only time people have said it's "not right for Samus blah blah blah" along with comparing it to Samus in her actual games. Her physics have stayed the same for months now. Seriously. Jesus Christ.

What other junk are you going to suddenly start complaining about? How about how Dedede randomly pulls out Gordo's with his side-b? Or Peach pulling out bob-ombs? There's another pointless discussion for you.

 

[zxeon]

If I want to play a super technical game, I'd just play Melee. In fact, I already do. It's already an amazing game that is also super technical.

One of the original conceptions of B+ was making a great game that is open to lots of different people. Buffering helps that. If buffering was removed I'd probably just play melee pretty much exclusively. @_@

Getting inputs right =/= super technical. There exists a balance between the two.

People are complaining about buffer, now? It's never been complained about since the handicap-buffer code was made. Except now.

Similar deal with Samus' physics. This last build is the only time people have said it's "not right for Samus blah blah blah" along with comparing it to Samus in her actual games. Her physics have stayed the same for months now. Seriously. Jesus Christ.

What other junk are you going to suddenly start complaining about? How about how Dedede randomly pulls out Gordo's with his side-b? Or Peach pulling out bob-ombs? There's another pointless discussion for you.

I've always been against it. I let it slip by thinking it wouldn't harm the game or peoples perceptions of the game ,but I can see now that was just wishful thinking.

 

[metaXzero]

As has been said, getting rid of the buffer selection in favor of none or making only ** frames of buffer the standard will only alienate those used to ** buffer. And for what? High level players doing stuff in matches that they'd be doing regardless of buffering?

 

[GHNeko]

Buffer =/= custom controls.
The adjustable buffer isn't like remapping the buttons, it doesn't just change where you have to move your fingers, it changes how accurate you have to be with your fingers. More than anything else, the buffer lets you be sloppy with timing and still have your attacks link together like a pro. If it's possible to fix all the instances where buffering is absolutely required, then I think it should be removed. If that can't be done, then a limit should be placed on the buffer so it can't go any higher than the absolute minimum to make all comboes work.

The buffer is a big part of what makes Brawl+ so ez mode overall, because even if the frame advantage on an attack is very small, or the timing to preform something is extremely tight, in most cases the buffer gives the player a big easy window to hit. Things that can easily be done just by mashing buttons like double fair combos with Marth, or a perfect IAP from Falco actually take some careful timing without the buffer.

If you feel the game is too easy due to buffer. Turn down your own buffer. Don't push your own personal preference on to other people. What makes Brawl+ "ez-mode" is NOT the buffer. It's the characters and what they're capable of. The "ez-mode" things a handful of characters can do can be done at any buffer. As I've said before, when playing in a match, you should be focusing what's on screen, not the games engine and its features.

There are no real disadvantages to using high amounts of buffer.

Unwanted inputs, less control over your character, more dedicate to moves and events controlled or brought upon by buffer.

It's easy mode.

False. It becomes easier for YOU. I can't stand buffer over 70 because I get too many unwanted inputs for my taste, but I can't play anything below 40 because I get dropped inputs. My buffer changes with my character as certain buffers = comfort zone.

If someone who uses a buffer of say five frames went down to one frame the frustration they would suffer from trying to get their attacks to come out on landing and catching those IASA frames will be enough for some to rage quit.

Not...really...It all depends on the person. If anything, a person who goes from 5 to 1 could eventually adjust and play on anything between 1 and 5.

If you use high buffer and don't believe me lower your buffer to one frame then tell me how you did.

I've lowered my buffer plenty of times. I used to be 100. I'm aiming to start playing lower and lower as I get better with my characters.

Which completely reminds me, haven't you guys ever thought that customizable buffer could been seen as steps for players to ease into the game with? Note that most players who start off with B+ start off with 100. As they find out what the handicap truely does and what buffer is, they dive into their own settings and find what works for them, normally going lower than 100. <_<

I've been moving down ever since custom buffer was created, and right now my highest buffer is 70 for Marth, who's physics I've not adjusted too.

Customizable buffer doesnt make the game easier overall, it just makes it easier for the person who finds their prefered buffer.

And if anything, to people who prefer low buffers. What about you? Why can't you learn to play on high buffer and avoid unwanted inputs brought upon by high buffer? Plenty of players do it already. Hell. I know every Ike out there knows how to not Buffer SD of a stage.

It's a two sided street. <_<

 

[Dan_X]

As has been said, getting rid of the buffer selection in favor of none or making only ** frames of buffer the standard will only alienate those used to ** buffer. And for what? High level players doing stuff in matches that they'd be doing regardless of buffering?

Exactly. You know, sometimes I loathe people on this board, especially having to do with Brawl+ changes. They go so far out of their way to push their agenda. Removing buffer, or setting a lower window is the most nonsensical thing ever, seriously. Why add a needless skill barrier to alienate people? In high level play people will play as if they had high buffer, as they'd have gotten use to it. But why should they get use to it? Buffer is a sensitive thing, people use different values for different characters that they play. The point is selecting the buffer that they FEEL good about. Why do some of you fools think you can mandate how they play, and what their preference is. You'd think buffer broke the game.

As far as I know, most fighters have buffer. The fact that the previous smash games didn't is something else entirely. To me the game feels crappy and sluggish at 0 buffer. It's not something that I want to get use to because I don't like how it feels and handles.

Brawl+ has a lot more going for it than some mindless technical barrier. The game is fast paced and if your use to 0buffer you can beat a 10framer just as a 10framer can beat someone who has 0buffer.

Oh, and stop with the "=/=" garbage. We don't care what you are equating with regards to buffer. Perhaps you should spend your time on something that actually has merit....

Buffer preferences are here to stay. Period.

Edit: nice post GHNeko! I agree entirely.

 

[Mattnumbers]

I don't think buffer should be removed entirely, I just think the maximum amount allowed should be lowered, which would keep things from being impossibly hard while not making them easy. This isn't a technical barrier as it only stops you from doing more advanced things with your specific character, which doesn't exclude from low-low mid level play, it just means you have to practice your character more to get the timing down in order to get to high level play. It's not a mindless technical barrier its a TIME barrier, as in time you've spent playing the character in order to discover what the timings for things are. Buffer is anti-competitive as it's only function is to make things easier.

B sticking is fully possible without a B stick... I find smashes/aerials to be a much better usage of my C-stick so I learned to deal without.
Literally EVERYTHING one controller setting can do can be done on another controller setting, it just may require more precision. The only exception I have ever heard of is Lucario's Up B problem with tap jump.

Actually that is a misconception, there are a couple of Lucas AT's that require the use of a B-stick. This is because you can't have the control stick in two places at once, so certain things are impossible to do with only the control stick.

Also:

The Wavebounce (b-sticking, as it has been named by SamuraiPanda, even though it does not actually require the use of the b-stick DAPKWLing for a period of time was believed to be the same thing as b-sticking Just discovered by Arrowhead that this is actually possible Levitas and I have reached a general consensus that you should (read: NEED) to switch to the b-stick, as it makes this so much easier and spammable) is an advanced technique in which a player uses a special (b) move in the air and also gains incredible backward momentum. Lucas can use this for his PK Fire and also, to a lesser extent, his Psi Magnet.

This only relates to wavebouncing which is why it doesn't mention Lucas's other ATs that require the b-stick

 

[stingers]

you can wavebounce without b sticking...lol

 

[GHNeko]

Why should the maximum amount be lowered when the end result on screen is going to be the same? And doing so, all that will do is cater to people who have the highest new buffer, as they'd already be used to the buffer and still have an "advantage" over players with lower buffer. <_<

You can't lower buffer. Its an all or nothing thing because its not fair to players who use higher buffers than the new cut off point.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Isn't the maximum buffer we have to offer the vBrawl default? I don't remember.

 

[GHNeko]

Max buffer is infact Brawl buffer (10 frames)

And is the sole factor that helps newcomers to Brawl+ ease into Brawl+ from Brawl.

 

[LopTank]

I never eased in. That's just how I roll.

/satire

Actually, I remember kinda going "Ahhh..." when playing B+ for the first time. Brawl really should have been that from the start, and everyone knows it.

 

[Mattnumbers]

you can wavebounce without b sticking...lol

And.....?

I never said you couldn't, learn the rest of your Lucas ATs son.

Although B-sticking makes wavebouncing repeatedly about 10X easier and much faster (pressing one direction on a control stick will always be faster than pressing two different directions and a button.)

 

[stingers]

what does lucas even have? zap jump, magnet pull don't require b-sticking. thats all lucas needs...

 

[thesage]

I find all the weird Lucas ats easier without b-sticking and buffering.

 

[Viquey]

Super-duper button-pressing precision is the first thing you need to learn. That's what "playing" is. What did you think practice was for?

Imagine if a pianist could just hit the right keys without any rhythm but the piano would correct the tempo for him. Is that fair to the player or other competitors who aren't using an auto-pilot keyboard?

I reiterate: there's more to this game than one's ability to press the buttons--especially more than how well or quickly one can press the buttons.

I was under the impression "practice" was for learning your character(s), their combos, the game mechanics, the stage hazards, how to read opponents, and a multitude of other related things, very few of which have much--if anything--to do with button-pressing precision of the super-duper sort. ATs are handy, but they don't make the game.

Also, to your analogy--this isn't a competition to show off our technical skill in the game. :V It's not about how fast, accurately, and rhythmically you can press the keys--in this case, buttons--it's about what those buttons are making the character do on the screen.

Here's another stupid analogy to add to the growing pile --being a really fast, accurate typist isn't going to make you the next best-selling author. Similarly, fast fingers =/= good player.

 

[FrozenHobo]

question: why is it that when you absorb MK with kirby, his tornado is completely unaffected by B+'s changes? even increased downgrav seems to have no change on how high/spammable the move is.

 

[Starzaka]

Hey everyone im still relatively new to brawl+ and i was wondering, why is wavedashing not in the official plusery codeset? Wavedashing would provide another spacing tool for your character and enable you to further play mindgames with your opponent(wavedashing back and forth is much more effective than dash dancing as you can fsmash, upsmash, or dsmash instantly out of the WD) and increase the overall metagame with the potential combo setups that wavedashing can provide. Also, ledge guarding would feel much more natural as you'd be able to wavedash backwards off the stage.
Wondering what your guys thoughts on this.

 

[Shadic]

Yeah, no. Wavedashing died forever ago.

It doesn't work with Brawl physics, everybody slides far too much. Brawl's airdodge is one of the things that differentiates it from Melee.

 

[Starzaka]

So are we talking Melee Luigi kind of wavedashing everyone can do in brawl? Cause if so I suppose I can see why when someone can easily wavedash off the stage.

 

[Shadic]

Yes. It's that bad.

 

[timothyung]

WD is broken in Brawl.
There's little lag when you land during an AD in Brawl, compared to Melee's 10 frames. Combined with the longer slides, it makes WD too good. And it doesn't fit in Brawl+.
Even if WD is fixed, it still will not be added in because we already have the Brawl AD in B+ for a long while, and adding in WD will mess up the balance.

And I'm confused at the buffer discussion... why limit the players' potential? Well then, you might also want to remove the tech window code.

 

[slimpyman]

i dont like beanasaur anymore....

 

[FrozenHobo]

question: why is it that when you absorb MK with kirby, his tornado is completely unaffected by B+'s changes? even increased downgrav seems to have no change on how high/spammable the move is.

just a reminder^^

 

[GHNeko]

The hitbox is smaller and kirby nado is only legit in Kirby vs MK or 2 v 2s where MK is a player. If it is highly spammable, it doesnt really matter as a competent MK will deal with it on 1 v 1 with his own nado and high priority moves and you've got 2 players who can easily remove the power from Kirby in 2 v 2s.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

New Transform graphics for Zelda and Sheik for those who care about the current graphics not at all matching the slowdown mechanic.

 

[Plum]

High amounts of buffer serve as training wheels. If you use lots of buffer you will never truly learn to play the game.

Quoting this post a little late here, but that's because I went to sleep... :V

So wait... Buffer is training wheels now? I can't truly learn how to play the game with a high buffer setting? **** no, that is just horribly wrong.

What if somebody like NL, Anther, Holy, Boss, or Chu played a match against you while using 100 buffer? What if you played the match with 0 buffer? Upon getting your *** whooped what is your reaction going to be? "Oh, your win doesn't mean anything. I used no buffer so even though I lost I'm the one who is truly playing the game the right way. Obviously the only reason behind your victory is the training wheels you have to use to play this game."

Yeah, that makes perfect sense. I see why we shouldn't allow 100 buffer. It's impossible to truly learn the finer points of the game while using a high buffer. We should all ban together and tell every player this. Heck, lets find a mountain and shout it from atop. Spread the word+ everybody.

:V

 

[Revven]

As for meteor canceling I know you cant Meteor Cancel and survive Ganon, CF, Wolf, DK (Fair or Dair) and Samus (not 100% on this one though) at 0%. that's a little ridiculous. I know hitting them at 0 is far-fetched but You should be able to cancel it with precise timing at decent percentages. Again im fine with things being the way they are I just think it would add more depth to the game.

DK Fair and Dair... 0% KOs? Are you serious? You can't be. DK's Fair or Dair both are not strong enough to kill at 0% offstage they don't become reliable meteors until well over 80%, and even that is a lucky KO for DK. Samus doesn't kill at 0% with Dair either, hers has about the same trouble KOing at even 50%. It is just as weak as DK's if not weaker and doesn't KO until well over (again) 80%. It is a weak meteor at low percents much like DK's Dair and Fair.

You want MC'ing to be even easier just because of three or four meteors being really strong? Okay. Here's what I'm going to have you do. Pick Snake, any time you get meteored by someone that doesn't have as strong of a meteor as the ones you listed, Up B. Just mash Up B. Look at that, Snake can Up B just a few seconds after he had been hit. Then he can C4 recover if need be. Oh wow, so, imagine that with the stronger meteors! Characters with good recoveries can then also MC these 3-4 moves you're complaining about and now making the moves hardly viable to use until later percents much like DK's, Samus's, and Falco's.

That's stupid. It is really stupid tp generalize it like that. "Oh I think that MC'ing should be easier on moves that can KO me at 0% or 20% when I'm offstage. Even though I let myself get put into the situation in the first place." It's plain stupid to nerf these moves like that, they are highly telegraphed and half of the time with Ganondorf you already see it coming a mile away because it is to be expected in the match-up (i.e Ganon vs. DK).

MC'ing is not going to be changed in any way to fit your desires. If MC'ing will ever get changed, the only thing that will changed about it is making it a smaller window and so you also cannot simply just mash Up B to MC. You may have been able to mash Up B in Melee, but, this is Brawl+ and there are ridiculous recoveries in this game. Limiting it only o jump (which can also currently be mashed btw!) is a good thing for MC'ing.

Also, Wolf's Dair isn't as strong as Ganon's, Ness's, or Falcon's. The only one that could hope to kill at 0% that you listed is Ganon's. Falcon's, Wolf's, Samus's, and DK's all don't become viable meteors until well above 50% (as I mentioned earlier, DK and Samus are much later). Ness's is actually stronger than Ganon's and DOES KO at 0% and I believe his is the only one. Ganon's can be MC'd at 0%, it doesn't start KOing until 23% and above.

I am really hating all this bull**** complaining recently. Thanks for the bug reports guys, we'll look into them but, other than that, quit complaining about **** that is staying (buffer) and just go PLAY the game. Christ, is it that hard to leave this thread alone for a week?

 

[CloneHat]

Hey guys, I see buffer johns in the future. T_T

"You won 'cause noobs use 100 buffer"

The way I see it, buffer=easier but sloppier. The only problem is it lessens the tech skill it needs to do some things.

 

[Wario_man]

Don't know if this has been touched on before but I'm using PAL and I just downloaded the latest set and renamed the folder to RSBP01 and Gecko still isn't picking up the latest codes =/ Do I still have to wait for a new Pal set?

 

[MK26]

yes, you do

and regarding wolf shine iasa, wouldnt logic dictate that you lengthen the fair by 1 frame, shorten the bair and shine by 1 frame, and end up with a 3-frame window to shinebair?

 

[Wario_man]

aw poop =( I got all excited for nothing v.v