Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[Red-Blue]

I thought Fox was a faq.

yiff yiff

lol censor dodge

 

[CloneHat]

On the issue of Fox, he does seem a bit too good right now. A character with such a strong combo game and a gimping move like shine doesn't need smashes or an up air as powerful as Fox. Falco could probably use a nerf on the power of his smashes and uair too, since his new physics and IASA on utilt seem to make it easier comboing into a dair kill.

Gimping? Fox's only gimp move is his shine, which has no range whatsoever.

 

[cubaisdeath]

On the issue of Fox, he does seem a bit too good right now. A character with such a strong combo game and a gimping move like shine doesn't need smashes or an up air as powerful as Fox. Falco could probably use a nerf on the power of his smashes and uair too, since his new physics and IASA on utilt seem to make it easier comboing into a dair kill.

lol, don't play melee fox then

 

[GHNeko]

Didn't Melee Fox have the strongest Usmash...period?

 

[Stevo]

is there like a changelog or something I can look at?

also, new release seems pretty good.

Was Olimar nerfed at all?

 

[Nybb]

Didn't Melee Fox have the strongest Usmash...period?

I think Pikachu's and Peach's on the silly shoulder hitbox were stronger, actually.

you have to fast fall before you laser

and check a page the last page for DJC tutorial lol

Yeah, like I said, I played both Melee and 64, I know how to do the stuff. Even if it was somehow amazingly harder than in previous games, I should have been able to pull it off at least once. I was more wanting to know if such a problem would be caused by the .gct or the .pac's. Installing / overwriting the .pac's is a bit annoying since I'm not using Windows, so I was hoping to avoid having to do that if neccessary.

And Stevo, there's a changelog on Brawlplus.net, just like usual.

 

[GHNeko]

I think Pikachu's and Peach's on the silly shoulder hitbox were stronger, actually.

I know Pika's was slightly stronger uncharged, but charged, Fox had the best, and overall, Fox still was the best.

 

[VietGeek]

Fox:

Still DA best.

 

[Deleted member]

edit: waited too long to post

 

[Isatis]

Installing / overwriting the .pac's is a bit annoying since I'm not using Windows, so I was hoping to avoid having to do that if neccessary.

Out of curiosity what do you use?

 

[leafgreen386]

This topic amuses me. People complain about stuff that's been there since the dawn of time as if it's suddenly new, and then they're told to learn to deal with it, regardless of whether the complaint was valid or not.

On the topic of samus: We haven't touched her physics in a very long time. Why is it that you only are now complaining about them? She hasn't even received many new changes in general, actually. Even so, it seems a lot of people think she's too floaty and want them changed, to which it seems several WBR members are writing off and saying "learn the character." Uh... what? This isn't something new. It's not something to "adjust" to. Players have been using these physics for a very long time. I'll admit that it was horribly stupid for them to wait this long to complain about it, but this can't be answered with just the handwave of "learn the character."

On the topic of fox: Are you serious? Like... really? You're complaining about his fair (which is the same it's always been) and his dair (which has received a pretty hefty nerf recently), and then you're complaining about jabs on shield... which are so far from safe it's ridiculous. If you're going to complain about what fox can do to shields at least know what to complain about: dair -> shine shield pressure is back now, and is very safe. Yes, he can get some very good combos and he kills well, but he also gets combo'd and gets gimped. His combos also take more skill now that dair -> utilt spam is so much less effective and with using his shine in combos. Now, I actually did want to give fox a DJ height nerf, to make it harder for him to get off uair kills and to slightly impair his recovery, making him more gimpable, but most other WBR members disagreed. The exact change was making the DJ multiplier 1.05 instead of 1.17. I'm still of the opinion that the shine/dair trade-off was more of a buff than a nerf and that he still needs a little more toning down, but not by much.

edit: Oh, and also on the topic of samus's floatiness... if you're going to argue that she's also floaty in her games and that it's "canon" for her to be super floaty, then perhaps you should also recall that she can probably run about as fast as falcon in her games, as well, and that her short hop could technically be 2 inches off the ground if she wanted it to be. It would actually be most "canon" for her to have jumps like falco and running speed like fox. Go play some super metroid and try telling me that she should have a super high short hop or she should run as slow as she does now. I dare you.

 

[KOkingpin]

I really dont see True 0-80 combos coming from Fox, cause if he drills you, You still have tons of options from the shield unless you are Yoshi. I was messing around with him and I realize that he is really really good, but So are a lot of other characters. Ness in the right hands is pretty busted, So is Wario and Capt Falcon. Plus shine KOs are not that easy to pull off.

Speaking of yoshi, I was very skeptical about DJCing with him. I freaking love it. He is some much better and so much fun now. Yoshi changes get two thumbs up. Also slowing down the entry into his side b makes it a little less broken.

oh yes and samus, i agree that she is a bit too floaty but i think making her Fast Fall faster would make her a lot better.

 

[VietGeek]

This topic amuses me.

<then srs stuff>

Leaf I thought we all knew this topic was for lulz and that you need to stop getting baited. =V

<3

 

[Revven]

Was Olimar nerfed at all?

shanus used to play Olimar. The way he explained it, to me, was that there's match-ups where Olimar can completely dominate a character and then there's match-ups where he himself gets dominated due to weaknesses he has against them or they do better at what he does good in. His gimpable recovery more than enough balances him out, imo. There also are not enough Olimar players in Brawl+ to say that Olimar is really 2gud (even though we know he IS good as he is right now). So, to ask for nerfs for him and not pay attention to match-ups where he does worse in is like asking for Fox to get nerfed because he does extremely well in many areas but, fails in two areas, those two areas being pretty big ones.

You should read the big changelist in the news post made on brawlplus.net about who was buffed/nerfed/fixed/changed in any way before asking such questions.

 

[Doval]

Go play some super metroid and try telling me that she should have a super high short hop or she should run as slow as she does now. I dare you.

Sure, I'll bite.
1) She doesn't run at ludicrous speeds without the Speed Booster accessory, which you have no reason to believe she uses in Smash Bros. Although the dash attack was clearly inspired by the Shinespark, it's certainly not a Shinespark, seeing as how she's not invulnerable when she uses it, doesn't damage herself when she uses it, she can use it right out of a dash, and she can't use it to fly off the ground in a straight line.
2) Any game that gives you control over your jumps lets you control the height (only sucky games like Ghouls and Goblins and old Castlevanias don't let you do this.) It's not Metroid-specific and seems pretty silly to bring this up at all. Mario, Luigi, Peach, Yoshi, Sonic, Wario, DK/Diddy, and probably several others I'm too lazy to think of right now, can do this in their games too. More importantly, this game feature is completely at odds with Super Smash Bros' (and fighting games in general) gameplay formula. Character-specific fall speeds isn't. And, gameplay balance permitting, Smash does try to implement as many canonical elements from the character as possible (otherwise what's the point?)

Bottom line to point 2 is basically that the only reason not to use canonical character attributes is imbalanced gameplay (e.g. Kirby having infinite mid-air jumps would break the game, but giving him multiple mid-air jumps is a good enough compromise to keep in spirit with his character.) I can't speak for the WBR but it seems ridiculous to start changing characters because people simply don't like his/her falling speed. I haven't heard a single argument as to why her floatiness is either detrimental to her or makes her too good.

 

[lord karn]

As far as fox goes, the reason I think he's one of the best is not because of his dair or because of his combos. It's mainly just because he's really fast and can almost always run away and camp. The Fox I played in finals at the NC B+ tourney this weekend did just that. He ran away and shot lasers and always disengaged when possible. He attacked me only when I approached. The guy playing fox is also a really good Fox in vBrawl, and he made Fox's recovery not look nearly as bad as I thought it was. If Fox saves his double jump and uses his fair with it, it gives him both extra height and makes him really hard to hit out of it. Perhaps Ganon just can't deal with camping very well and that's why Fox seemed like such a hard matchup. Either way, I would probably put Fox in the top 5. He has amazing kills and combos, a decent recovery, and his shine stalling makes him pretty difficult to juggle even though he is so easily combo-able. However, he doesn't seem ridiculously OP to me, just in slight need of a nerf to his ability to camp or his fair maybe.

As far as Samus goes, I tried to learn to play her recently, and she seems to be one of the worst characters to me. She has an amazing camping game, but she seems to have no way to deal with people pressuring her. Upb out of shield is good, but it only really works on people who don't space their aerials right. Most of samus' aerials seem to do so little damage and knockback on the sourspot that she always gets counterhit if she uses these moves to get people off of her. However, Samus also seems to have a really high learning curve and I might just not know how to play her. Also, her recovery seems god-awful and the bombs really should explode on impact like they did in melee.

On the topic of Yoshi: I didn't play him any in tournament this weekend because I didn't have time to get used to the DJC and I didn't want to kill myself by accident with it. However, I played him a lot in friendlies and it definitely seems really good. I approve.

NC-Echo, my roommate has a really good Olimar in vBrawl and he went all Olimar in the tourney this weekend. Olimar definitely seems really good in B+. I think that shanus' description of Olimar having some really good matchups and really bad matchups might be right. However, I don't think the goal of B+ should involve keeping **** matchups in the game. Olimar definitely ***** a lot of characters, but the matchups that are usually perceived as him getting ***** are usually thought bad mainly because it's really tight for Olimar. Olimar's grab and smashes really do give him the advantage in most situations, it's just that there are some characters that it's really hard to space them correctly against and if you mess up you get put in a really bad position. However, if you don't mess up your spacing, I don't really think Olimar has many bad matchups, just difficult ones. I don't think Olimar needs to be nerfed straight out, I just think he needs to be made less overcentralized, IE he shouldn't **** and shouldn't be *****.

On a side note, Snake really doesn't seem very good to me anymore.

I guess that's all I have to say about my impressions of the game after playing in tournament with the new build.

 

[shanus]

shanus used to play Olimar. The way he explained it, to me, was that there's match-ups where Olimar can completely dominate a character and then there's match-ups where he himself gets dominated due to weaknesses he has against them or they do better at what he does good in. His gimpable recovery more than enough balances him out, imo. There also are not enough Olimar players in Brawl+ to say that Olimar is really 2gud (even though we know he IS good as he is right now). So, to ask for nerfs for him and not pay attention to match-ups where he does worse in is like asking for Fox to get nerfed because he does extremely well in many areas but, fails in two areas, those two areas being pretty big ones.

You should read the big changelist in the news post made on brawlplus.net about who was buffed/nerfed/fixed/changed in any way before asking such questions.

Yeah, to tack on here:

Olimar is a very hard character to balance wherein his formula allows him to excel at camping and be a beast to approach while possessing a lot of innate combos from his beast grab range.

However, balancing this is extremely difficult because his strengths are amplified in B+, but unlike many other chars, his weaknesses are as well. For instance, the marth matchup got significantly harder for olimar as olimar;s priority is not his strong suit. Marth can move significantly faster through the pikmin barrage and effectively swat off pikmin at a much higher rate than olimar can put out compared to vBrawl. Adjusting him to compensate his matchups vs heavies will only result in needing to compensate him in his matchups against his weaknesses resulting in a complete character reworking. The only effective means I could see with doing this is tackling his pikmin priority, but this would be a very difficult stream to walk down.

I could go on and on about this topic, but I hope what I said makes sense.

 

[Doval]

As far as Samus goes, I tried to learn to play her recently, and she seems to be one of the worst characters to me. She has an amazing camping game, but she seems to have no way to deal with people pressuring her. Upb out of shield is good, but it only really works on people who don't space their aerials right. Most of samus' aerials seem to do so little damage and knockback on the sourspot that she always gets counterhit if she uses these moves to get people off of her. However, Samus also seems to have a really high learning curve and I might just not know how to play her. Also, her recovery seems god-awful and the bombs really should explode on impact like they did in melee.

SDI forward while shielding helps land Up-Bs even when people space properly. The latest nightly improved her f-air and up-air to hold the opponent much better and land the full thing. I don't know what you're talking about with the aerials and sourspots, since f-air and u-air don't have any real sweetspots to talk about, and n-air/b-air have good range and are more timing-dependent than position-dependent (it's hard and impractical to try to hit people with the butt portion of her n-air, for example.) I don't see how her recovery is bad at all, seeing as how she's apparently too floaty and has plenty of leeway during her approach with her bombs. Not to mention that, as floaty as she may be, she's still a heavy character.

Her bombs really should explode on contact, that much I whole-heartedly agree with. I doubt anyone would actually be opposed to this, but of course it takes time, the right tools, and testing to implement stuff like that.

 

[shanus]

Trust me, I want to edit her downB, but its not easy to figure out how. I've looked through a lot.

 

[lord karn]

SDI forward while shielding helps land Up-Bs even when people space properly. The latest nightly improved her f-air and up-air to hold the opponent much better and land the full thing. I don't know what you're talking about with the aerials and sourspots, since f-air and u-air don't have any real sweetspots to talk about, and n-air/b-air have good range and are more timing-dependent than position-dependent (it's hard and impractical to try to hit people with the butt portion of her n-air, for example.) I don't see how her recovery is bad at all, seeing as how she's apparently too floaty and has plenty of leeway during her approach with her bombs. Not to mention that, as floaty as she may be, she's still a heavy character.

Her bombs really should explode on contact, that much I whole-heartedly agree with. I doubt anyone would actually be opposed to this, but of course it takes time, the right tools, and testing to implement stuff like that.

Yeah, I guess I just don't understand Samus. About her aerials, I guess I worded that badly. I just meant unless you hit pretty much dead on with them they don't seem to lead to anything at all. I guess they fixed that this patch, so she might be better now. Another thing that I noticed is she's not really good at disengaging and getting back into a position where she can camp (which is her strong suit). Her air speed is pretty bad.

As for her recovery, everyone I have played seems to be able to intercept it really easily if I bomb-jump at all, because the bombs have a lot more lag than they did in melee. Without the bomb-jump, she doesn't cover nearly as much distance and she is really easy to edge-hog or interrupt if she doesn't have her second jump.

 

[Snail]

Olimar is good and I enjoy the way he plays in Brawl+ but that priority thing really needs to get fixed. Characters like Marth and Meta Knight are almost impossible to fight now because they can cut right through anything you do, and the recovery (which is still extremely crappy - I'd happily sacrifice something if you guys could just make it any better) doesn't help either...

Would there be a way of turning his aerial hitboxes into "sword" hitboxes? That would help his priority issues a lot. Grab armor would be another big help. To prevent him from being too broken we could decrease his KOing power or something, maybe grab range if such a thing is possible... latch damage, give him Jigglypuff weight? **** matchups aren't good

 

[zxeon]

Too many walls of text! I can't read it all. Tl;dr please.

 

[Stevo]

shanus used to play Olimar. The way he explained it, to me, was that there's match-ups where Olimar can completely dominate a character and then there's match-ups where he himself gets dominated due to weaknesses he has against them or they do better at what he does good in. His gimpable recovery more than enough balances him out, imo. There also are not enough Olimar players in Brawl+ to say that Olimar is really 2gud (even though we know he IS good as he is right now). So, to ask for nerfs for him and not pay attention to match-ups where he does worse in is like asking for Fox to get nerfed because he does extremely well in many areas but, fails in two areas, those two areas being pretty big ones.

You should read the big changelist in the news post made on brawlplus.net about who was buffed/nerfed/fixed/changed in any way before asking such questions.

if you noticed, I asked if there was a changelog somewhere I could look at in the post you responded to.... so I wasnt being a complete ***.

just fyi

 

[Revven]

I saw that, I was answering it with that last bit. Sorry if I sounded rude. :x

 

[Stevo]

no worries, thanks for answering my question

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Holy *********, so much complaining!!!!


Olimar's rapeness against most of the cast is balanced out by his matchups where he himself gets *****. I know this is almost always a crappy way to "balance" something (it's really just polarizing), but Olimar is a special case here.

About Samus...how the heck is Samus too floaty? It's one of her signature things in smash, people (also with the space jump in her games). Heck, she got better linking moves (fair and uair) in this set, her up smash links better now, and she has autocancel missiles to...pretty much anything...what more does she need? The ONLY thing I could ever see her get a huge buff to now is maybe her bombs. And hopefully, those changes would mostly be for recovery reasons (the best part about them in Melee.)

Finally, Fox...Fox isn't broken. His up smash is much more punishable than meets the eye (cough peach down smash anyone? cough). I played several matches with a good fox player yesterday, and I can safely say that the only move of Fox's that gave me trouble Fox's up tilt; I guess that makes me thankful that stale moves don't exist anymore, or I would be getting ***** even harder by that move. And his recovery is extremely punishable as well (Peach dair for his up b, nair for his side b). Like any other character, he has weaknesses that are exploitable.


TL; DR, stop complaining and play the game, please. Thank you, and have a nice day.

 

[Akuma2120]

Just a note, with the new update, Prop hacks are no longer possible, I tried a PSA Ganon that uses his sword, the code failed to work on the newest updated Brawl+

 

[zxeon]

Thank you SymphonicSage12.

Seriously, stop complaining long enough to actually play the game. Before you decide it's broken do your best to find a way around your problem in game. It doesn't matter that it's the most underhanded, hand fisted way possible, it only matters that it worked and you character can deal with it. Sometimes you have to stop and think instead of rushing in mindlessly.

 

[cubaisdeath]

Didn't Melee Fox have the strongest Usmash...period?

nope. 1. Pika, 2. Sheik, 3. Fox


also, I don't think fox is broken at all, I played luciens for a handful of games today and he didn't flat out destroy me or anything, he's just really good, like he has been lol.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

And isn't our goal to make it so that every character is "really good"? If Fox is already at that point, why is he a problem? Just leave him alone for now on.

And Xeon you are welcome for my tl;dr.


Wait, Cubaisdeath...are you sure Sheik's up smash is that high in melee? I thought Peach and Pichu were up there somewhere...

 

[Rudra]

Pichu's USmash was about the 6th strongest iirc. Sheik's is really strong if you can catch the enemy in the sweetspot (directly above) I think.

 

[Swordplay]

Wow.......Samus is slightly better than you think and fox is DEFIANTLY worse than you think. Just saying........

In my opinion there are a few characters who were really bad in the past but have taken significant leaps with this last set and seem to do well against the fox. HINT HINT FIND THEM CAUSE I WON'T TELL.

(I want to see if we come to the same conclusion)

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Rudra, I know that Sheik's sweetspot is really strong, I just didn't think that it was THAT strong.


and if you want broken, tell that to the KB of Melee fox uair.

 

[WheelOfFish]

Honestly, it's not that anybody is saying Samus is bad (though honestly, Samus is on the lower end of the spectrum). It's that Samus is ridiculously floaty. In Melee, Samus is floaty, but she doesn't play like feel like a robotic Jigglypuff with two jumps.

So, what's wrong with such a floaty Samus? I could see how you might be consider her floatiness a good thing, since she's relatively hard to combo. But for the person PLAYING Samus, it's not all that great, because it worsens her follow up ability. Giving her Melee physics would help her combo and be comboed. Not such a bad trade-off, considering how long matches with Samus take.

She's kinda fun to play with, but it's a little irritating that my z-air has a tendency to go right over the target's head because her short hop is so high and she stays in the air forever after one. Her fastfall is a joke. It's Peach-bad, but Peach is so much better off than Samus.

Like Leafgreen said, people are a little late bringing up Samus issues. I understand this completely and don't expect a new Samus before the next build... which should be months off to allow for a metagame to develop. Though I will say that I mentioned my concerns with Samus's physics a few times before this. On the other side, Leafgreen made a valid point about how saying 'get used to it' doesn't quite make sense when her physics haven't been touched in forever.

Can I also say that the 'canon to Metroid games' argument is dumb? This is SSB. Name one time Ganon used his hands to fight. One. Okay, how about Snake? In MGS, he would never fight unprovoked. What did Kirby do to provoke him? And what exactly is Luigi's moveset canon to?

But then again, we'll have to wait and see in a few months how Samus is doing. I think that we should establish a sort of tier list shortly before the next build comes out.

stop complaining and play the game, please. Thank you, and have a nice day.

... ironic.

 

[Dark Sonic]

nope. 1. Pika, 2. Peach, 3. Fox

Fixed.

Spoiler

10 char

 

[RPGsFTW]

I guess I'll try to "do stuff" to Fox after drills more than I have always been. It's not like I sit there and mashed grab. I know about the little things, gaps and all, that have been said to be between jab -> grabs and the like .

And I probably should've of said this as well, but what Lord Karn said about Fox is also very true. Very often, fat character or not, the fox I played was able to run away and wait for me. This was a major annoyance, especially when playing as a fatty, for obvious reasons.

And Fox's Usmash tip killing me through platforms on Battlefield when he is under me. /End rage again.

At least I usually seem to do the best out of my friends in Brawl+. Mindgames <3

 

[cubaisdeath]

no, sheiks is definitely stronger than fox's. peach's is right under fox. Sheiks tipped usmash kills 5% lower than fox's does.

anyways, check this out for all the people who think samus is too floaty

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IvlpumLypw

(No further hacks were used, this is the current dowloadable build)

 

[GPDP]

The reason I was so late in bringing up Samus's overly floaty physics is because for the longest time, I was under the impression that messing with her fgrav value would nerf her Up B recovery, so I didn't touch her in my gravity tweaks. But upon closer inspection, it turned out not to be the case, really. And even if it did, there is apparently a way to decrease that move's fgrav, as was done with Link. It just was never revealed how exactly.

Anyway, I'll go back to shutting up now, and test things out a bit more.

 

[Marth175]

After thourough testing, this build is indeed amazing and i must say is the best so far i believe, in my opinion of course, the only thing I dislike are Ness' aerial basically magnetically pulling him to the ground, why was this put in? ness can no longer come with an aerial attack from ledges without commiting suicide

 

[Revven]

That's Double jump canceling, Marth175.