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[VietGeek]

While this isn't possible atm to my knowledge, can't we make footstools work like shorthops and fullhops?

Pressing button as long as a shorthop = normal double jump
Pressing button as long as a fullhop = footstool

That would solve the problem I think...

Btw guys I bought this cool new shield that is bullet resistant. I'll be using it.

 

[timothyung]

Footstools can always be shorthopped or fullhopped...

 

[VietGeek]

Footstools can always be shorthopped or fullhopped...

I mean how long you press the jump button indicates whether or not you use normal DJ or FS. It would get rid of its "randomness," while keeping FS to the same buttons.

And this could be implemented with the handicap thing too.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

While this isn't possible atm to my knowledge, can't we make footstools work like shorthops and fullhops?

Pressing button as long as a shorthop = normal double jump
Pressing button as long as a fullhop = footstool

That would solve the problem I think...

Btw guys I bought this cool new shield that is bullet resistant. I'll be using it.

id settle for this idea but once you initiate the footstool, what would determine if it is a full hoped footstool or a sh'd footstool?

 

[FrozenHobo]

You are when you have to switch that taunt/aerial footstool to a button that isn't in an awkward as hell location.

just to humor you, what would be your solution to this dilemma?

 

[VietGeek]

id settle for this idea but once you initiate the footstool, what would determine if it is a full hoped footstool or a sh'd footstool?

Not to sound dumb but is there really a noticeable difference? From what I understand you mean there's different heights for footstools already...

or do you mean if you footstool from a shorthop it's different from a fullhop?

But for that (2nd one)...wouldn't that be no difference because how the FS works is based on whether or not the opponent is grounded or not (except for phantom FS)?

Disclaimer: My ignorance doesn't represent the WBR in any way or form.

=V

 

[FrozenHobo]

Not to sound dumb but is there really a noticeable difference? From what I understand you mean there's different heights for footstools already...

or do you mean if you footstool from a shorthop it's different from a fullhop?

But for that (2nd one)...wouldn't that be no difference because how the FS works is based on whether or not the opponent is grounded or not (except for phantom FS)?

Disclaimer: My ignorance doesn't represent the WBR in any way or form.

=V

full hop'd footstool is very high, while sh'd footstool is very low (almost no hight). you can do either type from the ground or the air.

 

[Wander]

Just throwing in a vote to completely remove footstooling, or maybe move it to the taunt button but remove it from the jump button.

Footstools are not meant to be useful. They're a dumb technique built by a team of hack programmers trying to make Smash Bros into a game where a 5-year-old can compete with a melee pro, along the same lines as random tripping and level hazards that kill instantly. It is NOT a legitimate "technique", and any attempt to make it useful in any way is a waste of programming time.

There is no reason why a game that relies on keeping your opponent off the edge should ever give the guarding player 100% opportunity to win by just simply jumping on their head. It's just BAD DESIGN on the part of the Brawl development team -- the same BAD DESIGN that made meta-knight so overpowered. If anything, you should be doing whatever you can to REMOVE footstooling completely, if you want a legitimate game you can call "tournament worthy". Let's do more to focus on solidifying the fundamental techniques of Smash Bros that the player has control over, rather than focus on whether or not you're able to stomp on your opponent in mid-air and gain a jump from it, which is annoying at best.

I can't believe that anyone would call this a "technique", let alone something that could be "useful". If you're rooting for this to stay in, you're rooting for a terrible game of smash.

That's why.

 

[VietGeek]

full hop'd footstool is very high, while sh'd footstool is very low (almost no hight). you can do either type from the ground or the air.

Darn, too late to correct myself.

Unfortunately that's a flaw in my idea.

But does anyone even use FH FS strategically? All the FS strats I know use SH FS then.

 

[FrozenHobo]

Darn, too late to correct myself.

Unfortunately that's a flaw in my idea.

But does anyone even use FH FS strategically? All the FS strats I know use SH FS then.

recovery options... most are done on accident.

edit: and wander, thats what the buffer idea is. 0-100 is regular jump, 200-300 is footstool mapped to taunt with FS-less jump.

 

[leafgreen386]

And you need to learn some manners. I can't help that you are a pimply face 17 year old virgin with no girlfriend or social life, but you don't need to take that out on me in a smash thread because I have a different opinion than you. Every post I make is an attempt to contribute to the community, and whether you agree with me or not, you better dam.n well respect me and not tell me to "shut up". It was unwarranted and shows your lack of character.

If you had read my post carefully, you would have seen that I was referring to a spike as something that can actually kill. Fox's d-air is technically considered a spike, but I have only seen it actually kill somebody (without killing him in the process) once out of thousands of games. So no, I was not talking about the technical definition of a spike, I was talking about a consistently useful attack (preferably an aerial) that can kill somebody outright; not set them up for combos.

You even mentioned yourself that the spike you proposed for sonic (on his u-smash), would be completely situational and easy to avoid or DI out of. Therefore, I would not consider it a spike in the literal sense, only the technical sense.

Maybe next time, you can spend a little less time thinking you know everything, and a little more time realizing that you can't just take everything at face value.

Wing

I'm probably supposed to care or something that you're insulting me.

...

But I don't.

I was telling you to shut up because 1) you were wrong and 2) it didn't have anything to do with the topic. I don't really care if you don't consider a downward launching attack a spike. What I do care about is getting you to shut up about something largely irrelevant to oh... anything.

That's your opinion. I did provide valid arguments and good points. The point I was arguing was that sonic or fox will never get a reliable meteor smash that can kill because it would be too powerful; which is true. The topic was originally brought up by skip2maloo who asked which characters had meteor smashes in B+, and another poster who asked if sonic or fox would ever get one.

Either way, whether or not you disagree with somebody, it does not warrant telling them to "shut up". Especially over an internet forum, and when I had not done anything wrong but bring up my own opinions.

I don't feel bad about what I said, sorry.

Wing

Your arguments weren't valid. Your points weren't good. Fox or sonic getting a spike that can kill would not break them; most spikes in this game are more useful on the stage than off of it, and if fox's dair was like falco's, it would actually make his combo game worse, while like I said, we're willing to give sonic a spiking usmash, which while very good, also wouldn't break him. It isn't your place to tell someone whether sonic or fox will ever get a spike, much less to waste space arguing over it. Oh... and if I want to tell someone to shut up... I will. Deal with it. It isn't even a matter of agreeing or disagreeing. It's a matter of that conversation having absolutely no value. Or this conversation, for that matter. So either just drop it or take it to PM. Your call.

 

[VietGeek]

recovery options... most are done on accident.

If someone seriously argues that having strategic value...

*sigh*

Anyways all these ideas currently have a flaw...idk I feel mine should be given a shot unless someone wants to tell me there's a strat using fullhop FS's.

 

[stingers]

@Viet: Recovery

 

[VietGeek]

@Viet: Recovery

Yeah that's the only one I know of. I guess this is an all-or-nothing ordeal.

I tried. =<

 

[MK26]

Post #1000

I was planning something for post 1000, but i thought "ah, **** it", the stupidity in this thread requires an injection of logic.
Then, i read the last 4 pages of the thread.
Anyway, I'm just putting out a point that nobody seems to have mentioned...

We made the Flame Choke Untechable, I fail to see how we can't make footstools untechable, bringing back their usefulnesses.

Yes.

Don't make footstools untechable...all the stupid infinites will come back.

OH NOEZ! TEH INFINIETS!

Actually, no they won't. We removed jab locks and laser locks by decreasing the height a character bounces off the ground. There are barely even any effective jab resets, seeing as how characters bounce so little. Sheik's infinites, ZSS's infinites, hell, probably even hobbling, are completely gone. I see no problem with making footstool untechable when there is so little you can do out of a successful one anyway. You'd have to be frame-perfect AND hope your opponnent screws up if you want to continue a combo.

In other news, that buffer idea (200-300 = taunt is a dedicated footstool button), if able to be coded, seems good, as I wont lose the single-button functionality. It might be tough to find an extra button (if L or R is unused, why not make that footstool?), but it's simply an alternate option taht one doesn't have to take.

 

[Deleted member]

On a note not related to footstools (why is this such a big deal my god) could we talk about Ness's yoyo and how it doesn't charge properly on an incline or off the stage? Removing this wouldn't be a buff, but more of a fix.

 

[Yingyay]

On a note not related to footstools (why is this such a big deal my god) could we talk about Ness's yoyo and how it doesn't charge properly on an incline or off the stage? Removing this wouldn't be a buff, but more of a fix.

Well i would definatley make a super great edgeguard. So in a way it would be a buff in the form of a fix. I support it tho.

 

[CountKaiser]

Well i would definatley make a super great edgeguard. So in a way it would be a buff in the form of a fix. I support it tho.

Not really, the charge hit of the Yoyos are pretty terrible, and are only meant to link into the actual smash attack.

 

[Yingyay]

I probably shouldnt have said super. But still, it would be fun for edgr-guarding tho.

 

[XSilvenX]

OMG @ this thread.... I'd like to use this post to remind everyone why we're here.


In a nutshell..these were the proposed changes from the last couple of pages.

Marth upb FIX!
Terrible, terrible move..FIX IT! kthnx

Samus Jab combo fix
some guy was complaining about it not actually combo'ing at earlier percentages which is pretty dam unacceptable for a gtfo move. IMO all jab "COMBOS" should actually combo. I find it stupid and a huge error in development for a jab combo NOT to combo. It's just Nintendo's foolish oversight at work again..

Get started on some sort of footstool/no footstool solution
if at all possible...I personally like Kupo's/Leafgreen's idea..

Fix GaW Chef cooldown
since GaW players thnik it will make the move more viable. . Personally I don't think it will change much but hey... I also don't think a tradeoff is warranted since Chef sucks as a projectile anyway....it's annoyance at most. Might as well just "fix" it to shut up the GaW players and be done with it.

Someone suggested fixing Ganon's utilt
by making it have more wind. Not a terrible idea but it still wouldn't make the move too practical. I would suggest just making it faster but less knockback so that it's a viable edgeguard similar to Falcon's/Samus' but slightly slower with a little more knockback (comparable to that of his ftilt perhaps but change the trajectory so it hits like a tilt..) ...I don't play the dude so don't take my word for it, just my .02 cents because as it stands there's absolutely no reason to use the move when you can just Warlock punch, Full charged fsmash, or fully charged upsmashed if you do miraculously break someone's shield.

Fix Falcon's knee priority.
According to Falco400 the Flub hit has more priority than the sweetspot...for example the flub can hit Fox/Falco out of their phantasms but the knee can't. Sounds pretty stupid to me..

Moving Fox/Falco's phantasm hitbox behind them.
I hate this idea, why make a character's recover worse? There's plenty of ways to deal with it, I mean if you have a char with a rapid jab you can hold "a" lol. Other chars can just space a smash. It really isn't that hard . Changing something so that it's easier sounds pretty anti-competitive to me .

Ness' Yoyo
Well....who charges Yoyos anyway.... but ugh I guess why not. It's Ness...he'll always suck LOLOL

 

[Deleted member]

---hell, probably even hobbling [is] completely gone---

Don't know about that, I'm pretty sure the only thing keeping hobbling from working is the teching fix code, but I can't really test it since I never bothered to learn how to hobble.

In other news, that buffer idea (200-300 = taunt is a dedicated footstool button), if able to be coded, seems good, as I wont lose the single-button functionality. It might be tough to find an extra button (if L or R is unused, why not make that footstool?), but it's simply an alternate option that one doesn't have to take.

That'd be nice, since I don't really have any buttons to spare.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

Marth upb FIX!
Terrible, terrible move..FIX IT! kthnx

yes

Samus Jab combo fix
some guy was complaining about it not actually combo'ing at earlier percentages which is pretty dam unacceptable for a gtfo move. IMO all jab "COMBOS" should actually combo. I find it stupid and a huge error in development for a jab combo NOT to combo. It's just Nintendo's foolish oversight at work again..

if anyone disagrees they should gtfo xD

Get started on some sort of footstool/no footstool solution
if at all possible...I personally like Kupo's/Leafgreen's idea..

taunt buttons with extremely high buffer i'd be ok with
i dont like the idea too much tho, cuz if ur trying to footstool spike with marth for example,
u'd have to move ur hand all the way down to the taunt button then back up to the controll stick and press down and A....in like...lightning speed; wich is why a bug buffer range would work well xD

Someone suggested fixing Ganon's utilt
by making it have more wind. Not a terrible idea but it still wouldn't make the move too practical. I would suggest just making it faster but less knockback so that it's a viable edgeguard similar to Falcon's/Samus' but slightly slower with a little more knockback (comparable to that of his ftilt perhaps but change the trajectory so it hits like a tilt..) ...I don't play the dude so don't take my word for it, just my .02 cents because as it stands there's absolutely no reason to use the move when you can just Warlock punch, Full charged fsmash, or fully charged upsmashed if you do miraculously break someone's shield.

i agree, but keep it really strong, (not as strong) the guy has got the triforce of power for petes sake, it should at least make him do more than 5% more damage than the rest of the cast imo...it'd be a pretty crappy triforce if it didnt xP

Fix Falcon's knee priority.
According to Falco400 the Flub hit has more priority than the sweetspot...for example the flub can hit Fox/Falco out of their phantasms but the knee can't. Sounds pretty stupid to me..

Yesz

Moving Fox/Falco's phantasm hitbox behind them.
I hate this idea, why make a character's recover worse? There's plenty of ways to deal with it, I mean if you have a char with a rapid jab you can hold "a" lol. Other chars can just space a smash. It really isn't that hard . Changing something so that it's easier sounds pretty anti-competitive to me .

its fine how it is, we should jsut leave it o_o

Ness' Yoyo
Well....who charges Yoyos anyway.... but ugh I guess why not. It's Ness...he'll always suck LOLOL

Yes on proposition Yoyo

 

[FrozenHobo]

setup for approaches/combos.

nana footstool -> rising blizzard/ice block/fair spike

popo footstool -> blizzard/ice block -> nana dash attack/blizzard

miss ledge w/ bellay -> footstool nana to recovery.

lets them work together as a team and gives more control to the character as a whole. and with the buffer idea there wouldn't be any off-stage mishaps (though if there were it would epicly funny)

just bringing this back up...

 

[VietGeek]

Marth upb FIX!
Terrible, terrible move..FIX IT! kthnx

From what I've seen on the BR set and from what I've tested, it's fixed to kill later than its original state but more growth has been given back to it. Also its damage is back to 13%.

Ivysaur with no DI on middle of Battlefield will outright die off the [extended] side at 152%. Of course you can fthrow to DS near the ledges and that will probably serve as a death combo and will slightly fix the problem with Marth sucking at getting kills.

Of course if you ever do use it in the middle of BF now it serves quite well as that string breaker that screams GTFO.

Fix Falcon's knee priority.
According to Falco400 the Flub hit has more priority than the sweetspot...for example the flub can hit Fox/Falco out of their phantasms but the knee can't. Sounds pretty stupid to me..

LeafGreen had a post somewhere about how priority works. We discussed it in the IRC and it might just be the fact that the phantasm exposes almost no hurtbox on Fox/Falco which is why it's crazy hard to knee someone out of their "suckass recovery."

Moving Fox/Falco's phantasm hitbox behind them.
I hate this idea, why make a character's recover worse? There's plenty of ways to deal with it, I mean if you have a char with a rapid jab you can hold "a" lol. Other chars can just space a smash. It really isn't that hard . Changing something so that it's easier sounds pretty anti-competitive to me .

Apparently shanus later discovered that the hitbox is in fact...ALWAYS been behind them. What makes the phantasm stupid is that the hurtbox you're suppose to hit is small. Instead of their whole body, it's just their head...maybe less that you can hit.

Also for some stupid reason it's easier to cancel them out of their phantasm if you stand with your back facing toward them. *shrug*

It should barely affect recovery at all since phantasms autosnap onto lagless ledges and if they try to hog you you will obviously land high, and now they're in a bad position. How much leeway the two spacies are given is pretty ridiculous. Even if we somehow nerf it, it probably won't even be as bad as it is in Melee.

Overall, the plan to move the hitbox back (which really didn't serve to do anything since it didn't fix the problem) is probably on-hold right now.


@FrozenPopo:

I'll keep track of that suggestion if it makes you feel any better. What you basically want is the ability for them to footstool each other, right?

 

[Deleted member]

setup for approaches/combos.

nana footstool -> rising blizzard/ice block/fair spike

popo footstool -> blizzard/ice block -> nana dash attack/blizzard

miss ledge w/ bellay -> footstool nana to recovery.

lets them work together as a team and gives more control to the character as a whole. and with the buffer idea there wouldn't be any off-stage mishaps (though if there were it would epicly funny)

Except that Belay leaves you in helpless mode :/
And remember that footstools leave the footstooled, uhh, "laggy" so #2 might not work. And a SHfootstool might be enough distance to make you lose control of Nana, make the AI activate, and follow you to the air.

 

[FrozenHobo]

@FrozenPopo:

I'll keep track of that suggestion if it makes you feel any better. What you basically want is the ability for them to footstool each other, right?

yeah. thats it.

 

[Swordplay]

OH NOEZ! TEH INFINIETS!

Actually, no they won't. We removed jab locks and laser locks by decreasing the height a character bounces off the ground. There are barely even any effective jab resets, seeing as how characters bounce so little. Sheik's infinites, ZSS's infinites, hell, probably even hobbling, are completely gone. I see no problem with making footstool untechable when there is so little you can do out of a successful one anyway. You'd have to be frame-perfect AND hope your opponnent screws up if you want to continue a combo.

In other news, that buffer idea (200-300 = taunt is a dedicated footstool button), if able to be coded, seems good, as I wont lose the single-button functionality. It might be tough to find an extra button (if L or R is unused, why not make that footstool?), but it's simply an alternate option taht one doesn't have to take.

Im pretty sure no matter what you do. If you can't tech footstools IC hobbling will come back.

Not matter how face you speed the get up. Because they IC can be in 2 places at once, They'll hobble just fine anyway. All you'll end up doing is slightly modifying the timing.

 

[MK26]

yeah. thats it.

wouldnt work without the dedicated footstool button, as popo would simply footstool nana every time he used his second jump...

 

[FrozenHobo]

Except that Belay leaves you in helpless mode :/
And remember that footstools leave the footstooled, uhh, "laggy" so #2 might not work. And a SHfootstool might be enough distance to make you lose control of Nana, make the AI activate, and follow you to the air.

well the recovery/off stage aspect isn't my biggest concern. i'm more interested in its uses on stage.

edit:

MK26: thats why i've brought up the idea recently, because of this new FS idea giving the ICs this property could actually be used without problems (such as offstage self gimps).

 

[MK26]

MK26: thats why i've brought up the idea recently, because of this new FS idea giving the ICs this property could actually be used without problems (i have thought about this stuff).

and if teh buffer idea pans out? what happens to the people who dont feel the need for a dedicated footstool button? I still dont see why this is necessary...

However, I am willing to wait for the code to come out, test it, and see whether or not i like it then. Arguing theory only goes so far, we need something concrete before we can truly discuss its positives and negatives

 

[FrozenHobo]

and if teh buffer idea pans out? what happens to the people who dont feel the need for a dedicated footstool button? I still dont see why this is necessary...

However, I am willing to wait for the code to come out, test it, and see whether or not i like it then. Arguing theory only goes so far, we need something concrete before we can truly discuss its positives and negatives

agreed. its purely theoretical now and could use some work, but the IC mains i have talked with think it would be a cool idea.

edit: and the FS idea i was talking about was the buffer idea. i like the buffer idea.

 

[Deleted member]

agreed. its purely theoretical now and could use some work, but the IC mains i have talked with think it would be a cool idea.

edit: and the FS idea i was talking about was the buffer idea. i like the buffer idea.

You never talked to me :/, doesn't matter, since I like the idea.

 

[BlueFoxXT]

I am not quite up to date on this thread, so forgive me for being off-topic somewhat.

Can we discuss pit's dtilt? You can fthrow>dtilt towards the edge and some characters feel insta-gibbed by it (concerned with DK and Bowser, and weaker vertical recoveries). I don't mean to say, hey remove the spike, but it just seems too easy and too good to be able to just get a grab near the ledge, and GG without any real options.

I suppose its possible to DI out of it with most characters, i haven't had extensive testing, but I only recall getting out of it once with Falcon, and feeling a bit more helpless with DK. I speak only from some matches I've had. But I open this to discussion.

BlueFoxXT

 

[thesage]

I think Ness's edgeguarding game is fine and doesn't really need any help. Yoyos are pretty terrible anyways due to a number of problems and the amount of time needing to fix them is a large amount since it has a lot of hitboxes...

I'd continue on, but I'm going to be focusing more on brawl+ later. I have a grad party tonight lol.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

^so your saying without DI this is a 0-death combo?

 

[SymphonicSage12]

I'm just wondering, what are your guys's thoughts on changing Jigg's KB angle of her side b to make it behind and above her ( like a 45 degree angle backwards) like it was in Melee? I wouldn't really care too much, I just kinda think it would suit her side b better. Sure, it would remove its "kill power", but if you're a good Jigglypuff you REALLY should be killing other ways. This is all my opinion tho. =3

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

I'm just wondering, what are your guys's thoughts on changing Jigg's KB angle of her side b to make it behind and above her ( like a 45 degree angle backwards) like it was in Melee? I wouldn't really care too much, I just kinda think it would suit her side b better. Sure, it would remove its "kill power", but if you're a good Jigglypuff you REALLY should be killing other ways. This is all my opinion tho. =3

i want it to be able to place ppl directly above her (not taking DI into thought) so she can Down-B them xP
either way, it has to do somthing strange/special
other wise there is no point in calling it a "Special Move"

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Lol turn it into an Ice Punch (she can learn that)...

 

[VietGeek]

Because a lingering hitbox setting up for a Rest kill and/or WOP isn't crazy at all...

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

Because a lingering hitbox setting up for a Rest kill and/or WOP isn't crazy at all...

h'hey
im saying it would set up without DI
any sort of DI would screw it up xD