Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[cAm8ooo]

He might be correct in fact. There's a lot of things in vBrawl that prevented you from doing combos (no lag reductions, slow jump speeds, low knockback on moves, airdodges, overall speed of game) besides hitstun.

I dont know if that's what kupo was talking about, but there's no way that vbrawl has as much hitstun as melee. Im sorry but when you get hit and can immediately airdodge aftewards, i dont care if the game is just as fast as melee, you aint gonna true combo them. Go dair someone with CF in melee and vbrawl and see how fast you can airdodge out.

If you sped up vbrawl and added in things like l-cancelling and slower KB you would not come up with melee like combos. You would just have more need to airdodge sooner.

Now the argument that brawl+ has more hitstun then melee is in fact true.

As it stands, as far as hitstun: 64>brawl+>melee>vbrawl

 

[kupo15]

About Kupo's moon grav idea for Airdodges, I'm against it. For one thing, it destroys the remains of the SHAD approach. And it also allows for stalling since B+ airdodge doesn't put you in freefall.

Oh well. A nerfed version of the SHAD is a better trade off for a much less OP AD. Also, it wouldn't allow for stalling if the total number of frames for an AD was as long as Vbrawls.

What I would rather see would be a limit on the number of times you can airdodge before landing. This limit can differ from character to character to character. I believe that this would allow for some more pressure on the airborne defender, since they can't mindlessly fast fall airdodge back to the ground as much as they wish and would be forced to use their airdodges wisely. Of course, the amount of times you could airdodge would be relatively low.

It won't work because the number chosen will be arbitrary and it won't be consistent. I'd expect you would have a lot of "I thought I could AD" moments. The only way that would "sorta" work is if you can only AD after a jump. But then again, that doesn't sound so good

 

[WheelOfFish]

vBrawl had as much hitstun as Melee, but it was cancelable.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Oh, about the hitstun thing. I see now. Thank you clarifying.

 

[kupo15]

I dont know if that's what kupo was talking about, but there's no way that vbrawl has as much hitstun as melee. Im sorry but when you get hit and can immediately airdodge aftewards, i dont care if the game is just as fast as melee, you aint gonna true combo them. Go dair someone with CF in melee and vbrawl and see how fast you can airdodge out.

If you sped up vbrawl and added in things like l-cancelling and slower KB you would not come up with melee like combos. You would just have more need to airdodge sooner.

Now the argument that brawl+ has more hitstun then melee is in fact true.

As it stands, as far as hitstun: 64>brawl+>melee>vbrawl

You are correct. That wasn't what I was saying

vBrawl had as much hitstun as Melee, but it was cancelable.

That is what I was saying.

If you were to up the gravity to be close to melee and remove the cancelable factor in vbrawl hitstun, then it would feel very similar to melee hitstun. This is what I think the ultimate goal should be but its obvious that won't happen. Brawl+ is too content with keeping things floatier and upping hitstun to compensate which makes comboing easy. Oh well.

 

[Alphatron]

This looks really awesome, and I'd love to try this out. the only problem with this is that it requires Homebrew Channel... is there any possibility of this not requiring Homebrew to work in the future? Balanced Brawl doesn't require it, so (as far as I know) it's possible.

if possible, I think it would be a smart move to make this playable on any Wii.
(also, sorry if this has already been answered)

The same method that balanced brawl uses isn't exclusive to balanced brawl.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

use the no homebrew hack with the autoupdater.

 

[cAm8ooo]

vBrawl had as much hitstun as Melee, but it was cancelable.

I wouldnt really call it true hitstun then.

Defintion from the metaboli gamer dictionary: Hitstun originates from fighting games. A hitstun is a short period of time counted in frames (the number of images during the animation phase) during which a player is immobilized and vulnerable to a combo.

I wouldn't really say it was "True" hitstun since you can just cancel it out with out a tech. I see it more as a sakurai AT. "Look guys, hitstun cancelling! A new AT to go along with my Sakurai combo!"

I understand the argument tho.

 

[zxeon]

kupo why do you keep harassing the wbr to change brawl+ more to what you want? all these radical changes you're proposing would totally require them to rebuild the game from the start. you don't even play the game, and you probably haven't even given the newest build a chance. maybe you should just accept the fact that shanus' and cape's brawl+ won and yours didn't and move on with your life. :/

It is getting old Kupo, you hardly have any constructive criticism you just show up every few pages harping about some changes you like.

 

[T-major]

use the no homebrew hack with the autoupdater.

doing this now. thanks for helping me with stuff I was too dumb to figure out on my own :D

 

[Alphatron]

It won't work because the number chosen will be arbitrary and it won't be consistent. I'd expect you would have a lot of "I thought I could AD" moments. The only way that would "sorta" work is if you can only AD after a jump. But then again, that doesn't sound so good

Yeah, I was just throwing that out there. Oh well. Before airdodge changes, I'm more concerned about that one idea that came up a while back. The one about increasing U grav so that you reach the apex of your jump faster, and THEN decreasing hitstun a tad.

 

[leafgreen386]

What you're looking at now is a potential final build. If whatever is not in it, chances are, if the character is doing fine they won't get anymore changes. Meaning that, because none of that stuff is there in this release (except the HA cancel into Side B/Up B/Down B) Sonic likely won't be getting those two things you mentioned if he proves to do well.

That's why it's called RC1 meaning Release Candidate 1. While this set is sitting out here, we'll be working on gameplay changes. If there are any characters to balance again, it will be based off of the results from any tourneys that happened during that time period, plus if they need to be readjusted for whatever we change.

Um... no? The truth is, brawl+ is still in an alpha form. The very fact that we are still going to be editing mechanics should make this painfully obvious.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle

When a project hits beta, it is typically deemed "feature complete," meaning no new code will be added to the project. It may be modified to fix bugs, but there are no new design implements. I could sort of put up with calling brawl+ "beta" before this, since at least it wasn't completely offbase, but when there are still going to be code changes, and major code changes at that, it's just absolutely absurd to call this a "release candidate."

kupo why do you keep harassing the wbr to change brawl+ more to what you want? all these radical changes you're proposing would totally require them to rebuild the game from the start. you don't even play the game, and you probably haven't even given the newest build a chance. maybe you should just accept the fact that shanus' and cape's brawl+ won and yours didn't and move on with your life. :/

Except for the part where we actually are going to be implementing many of kupo's ideas due to them having been backed by the community, so could you kindly shut the frick up now?

 

[jalued]

Kupo, did you just say that vbrawl has as much hitstun as melee? "The equivalent would be no additional hitstun" etc.? I'm pretty sure vbrawl has less.

Also, are we going to implement the water idea that kupo had? Like moon gravity or something to that effect?


And about stages: Please fix the super slow reappearance of the mansion on LM. It's kinda weird.

And MK1-2 needs Neko's idea. Badly.

( Yes I know that no stage changes even planned for this current set)

im sorry SS12, but have u ever even played melee?? think about it, the gravity is higher, the gameplay is faster, and u can jump out of combos earlyer than in brawl+.... so obviously the hitstun is ALOT less than brawl+ which is slower and floatyer. The only reason melee combos seem to have more hitstun is due to the shockingly bad airdodges (compared to brawl+).

This game needs more punishable airdodges, less hitstun and more Upgrasv and hopefully it'll b alot more challenging (doesnt hav to be no control after airdodges, but u shouldnt be able to airdodge out of any combo as soon as the hitstun has ended). jumping/DIing away should always be the prefered option

 

[Wavedash Master]

I wouldn't really say it was "True" hitstun since you can just cancel it out with out a tech.

That, and most people were under the assumption that you couldn't do certain combos in vBrawl because of really low hitstun (which is wrong).

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Yes, I have played melee. But, I agree that you can say that brawl doesn't have "as much hitstun" as melee. If it is "cancelleable", then why even consider it to be the same if anyone can shorten the hitstun they are in?

You forgot that in melee, punishing people in tumble is a lot easier since they can't airdodge out of it. The best thing they can do is attack (or wobbling or w/e, I'm not sure on this part), which is a lot more punishable than an airdodge. And you also forget that sometimes the reason that the hitstun is "less" is simply that the gameplay is faster. OBVIOUSLY you are going to be in "less stun" if everything is faster.


*waits for kupo*

 

[shanus]

well then, this area is hostile

*backs away*

 

[shanus]

This looks really awesome, and I'd love to try this out. the only problem with this is that it requires Homebrew Channel... is there any possibility of this not requiring Homebrew to work in the future? Balanced Brawl doesn't require it, so (as far as I know) it's possible.

if possible, I think it would be a smart move to make this playable on any Wii.
(also, sorry if this has already been answered)

DOwnload the autoupdater, and choose the option for brawl+ without homebrew.

 

[jalued]

Yes, I have played melee. But, I agree that you can say that brawl doesn't have "as much hitstun" as melee. If it is "cancelleable", then why even consider it to be the same if anyone can shorten the hitstun they are in?

You forgot that in melee, punishing people in tumble is a lot easier since they can't airdodge out of it. The best thing they can do is attack (or wobbling or w/e, I'm not sure on this part), which is a lot more punishable than an airdodge. And you also forget that sometimes the reason that the hitstun is "less" is simply that the gameplay is faster. OBVIOUSLY you are going to be in less stun if everything is faster.


*waits for kupo*

still think u shouldnt be able to airdodge out of tumble though, or at least makes airdodge have startup lag

 

[kupo15]

This game needs more punishable airdodges, less hitstun and more Upgrasv and hopefully it'll b alot more challenging (doesnt hav to be no control after airdodges, but u shouldnt be able to airdodge out of any combo as soon as the hitstun has ended). jumping/DIing away should always be the prefered option

Also adding No ADes during tumble would also help with not being able to AD out of combos because jumping and DIing away would be easier. Also adding in FF during tumble would help as well

 

[SymphonicSage12]

then add the NADT code yourself.

or, as kupo suggested, have it in the official set.


EDIT:

No AD in tumble [spunit262, Phantom Wings]
C2781310 00000006
80980000 2C040021
40A20020 8097007C
80840034 2C040042
41A00010 2C040049
41A10008 38600000
39610040 00000000



FF during tumble v2.1 [spunit262, Phantom Wings]
C27651BC 0000000A
887E007C 2C030000
40A20040 809E0014
54846CFE 2C0417E5
41A00030 809EFFFC
80A4007C 80A50034
2C050049 40A2001C
80840070 80840024
8084001C 80A40000
60A50004 90A40000
60000000 00000000

 

[kupo15]

Yes, I have played melee. But, I agree that you can say that brawl doesn't have "as much hitstun" as melee. If it is "cancelleable", then why even consider it to be the same if anyone can shorten the hitstun they are in?

*waits for kupo*

Except, I wasn't comparing Melee's hitstun to Vbrawl's original hitstun mechanic. I was comparing it to Vbrawl's default setting of .4 with B+'s mechanic where you can't cancel the hitstun

No AD in tumble [spunit262, Phantom Wings]
C2781310 00000006
80980000 2C040021
40A20020 8097007C
80840034 2C040042
41A00010 2C040049
41A10008 38600000
39610040 00000000



FF during tumble v2.1 [spunit262, Phantom Wings]
C27651BC 0000000A
887E007C 2C030000
40A20040 809E0014
54846CFE 2C0417E5
41A00030 809EFFFC
80A4007C 80A50034
2C050049 40A2001C
80840070 80840024
8084001C 80A40000
60A50004 90A40000
60000000 00000000

These codes need another chance

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Well, I was comparing it to vbrawl's hitstun.


...well then, why don't we just recreate melee's?

about the codes: I agree. (goes and adds codes into text)

 

[Kink-Link5]

Well, I was comparing it to vbrawl's hitstun.


...well then, why don't we just recreate melee's?

about the codes: I agree. (goes and adds codes into text)

Because, while Melee 2.0 would be an honestly terrific project, mean people label most changes into more melee-like counterparts as turning B+ into M2.0, which they then denote as something negative, rather than something beautiful.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

1. In all honesty, a melee 2.0 would be really cool IMO

2. Honestly, even if we tried, we couldn't make a Melee 2.0. Brawl is just too separated from melee.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

Um. So why do you guys call it "Official"? It's an "official alpha"? LOL SHUTUP

Except for the part where we actually are going to be implementing many of kupo's ideas due to them having been backed by the community, so could you kindly shut the frick up now?

oh leaf. i would not expect any less from a fellow theorysmasher. birds of a feather truly do flock together.

really? many of kupo's ideas? surely they are not the big things he's been pushing for, but minor things that most people can agree upon. No, you know I'm smarter than that. Why would I even bother making that post unless I'm annoyed by the sheer volume of posts about a subject he has absolutely no idea about. A game he doesn't even play. Player skill may be easily transferable from smash to smash, but knowledge of a smash's game mechanics and innards is a completely different manner. You guys are too easily swayed over by long posts.

But I'll humor you. Let's try to figure out what these "many ideas" you guys are going to implement.

L cancelling? God I hope not, but this is one of the big things he wants; an artifical tech boundary which requires the player to build a language with their character (which btw, if you aren't an idiot, a language which is easily deciphered after about 10 matches), a "placebo button" if you will which creates the illusion of speed and makes the game feel fast.

AD during tumble? More decibel increasing nonsense. More placebo buttons.

Nerf ledge snap distances? Say hello to unnecessary link, mario, falcon, falco (and more!) nerfs. Let's make brawl+ into a ground game like melee without even considering the consequences!

Decrease Hitstun? Hey if you guys in the WBR wanna fine tune every single move in the game to work with the new hitstun value and totally undermine all the work you've guys put into it up until this point that's cool with me.

Universal increase to up grav? Really, the shanus and cape agreed to this? Oh wait, a community agreed upon thing. Right. K.

Get rid of water? Kupo is one of the few people who are very vocal about this project who truly want brawl+ to be melee 2.0, and this suggestion is a testament to that.

No auto jabs? Most people wanted this anyway. Doesn't count.

And other random ideas that people want. Notice I started from his more radical ideas to ideas that most people can agree upon.

So what is it? What are these many ideas that kupo wants in the game? Are they the game changing things kupo REALLY wants in or the random little obvious things people wanted fixed anyway?

 

[CloneHat]

OK guys, without checking the exact numbers, I'm gonna say the knee feels just WEAK. It barely moves people until about 10%. It was overly nerfed where a slight one would have been fine.

On the other hand, Up B is RIDICULOUS. I was playing friendlies today and I could kill with it at 100-120ish percents from almost the CENTER of the stage! It should be good as a high-risk combo finisher, where you can risk your stock to finish an epic combo by the side of the screen, only making it back from the blast you get as you KO your opponent. In other works: high base, but not an easy kill option.

tl;dr: These two moves need balancing out. The knee was nerfed in power and the the up B buffed, only because "Magus wanted to". You can't just take this LONG LASTING BUILD and throw in you OPINIONATED IDEAS. I say fine, make the knee a bit weaker and up B a bit better, but the key word is BIT!

/rage

EDIT: Jiang, are you TRYING to disagree with everything Kupo says? And he didn't want to remove water anyway, just make it different... >.>

 

[SymphonicSage12]

I like NADT. I just tested it. It's awesome. >.>

 

[proteininja]

Dude the knee is still ridiculous. It can kill at 60 percent or higher and is a combo finisher. How is that too weak.

 

[Wavedash Master]

L cancelling? God I hope not, but this is one of the big things he wants; an artifical tech boundary which requires the player to build a language with their character (which btw, if you aren't an idiot, a language which is easily deciphered after about 10 matches), a "placebo button" if you will which creates the illusion of speed and makes the game feel fast.

Kupo never suggested to add L-cancelling at all. I have no idea where your getting this thought from.

 

[CloneHat]

Dude the knee is still ridiculous. It can kill at 60 percent or higher and is a combo finisher. How is that too weak.

Just look:

Actually, the KB was lessened. Magus wanted to decentralize Falcon's game from the knee a little bit, so he took a touch of KB from the knee and lovingly poured it into the Up-B.

I don't have exact percent data, but while the old knee could kill Mario near the edge of FD in the 60ish% (!) range, the new one is in roughly the 80ish% range.

Meanwhile, the Up-B has become a surprisingly dangerous combo finisher. It expands his combo game because the vertical boost gives him the ability to finish off foes that might've been launched too high to finish with his knee, and it's function as a grab box makes for some good mixups.

The exact kill percents elude me, but it's quite strong -- possibly too strong. We'll see.

And it also has to be taken into consideration that the knee has 4 frames (and a tiny hitbox) to hit; landing it is very hard compared to most other moves.

 

[metaXzero]

Kupo never suggested to add L-cancelling at all. I have no idea where your getting this thought from.

He's disagrees with the reasoning behind no L-canceling, but I think he has accepted that that's one idea that's never getting in since it hasn't been brought up by him as of late.

 

[kupo15]

EDIT: Jiang, are you TRYING to disagree with everything Kupo says? And he didn't want to remove water anyway, just make it different... >.>

Seems like it. And he is doing a pretty bad job seems to be trying really hard to discredit me with misconstrued statements . That was a good laugh Jiang

I like NADT. I just tested it. It's awesome. >.>

Isn't it? xD

 

[shanus]

livestream: http://www.justin.tv/shanus19

 

[MK26]

I like NADT. I just tested it. It's awesome. >.>

but...what does it change?

(correct answer: nothing important)

 

[kupo15]

but...what does it change?

(correct answer: nothing important)

It must have changed something for you to dislike it to a point where you are willing to fight tooth and nail to not add it in the official set.

 

[Revven]

NADT changes too much for an official set. Sorry kupo.

Maybe when we're done with gameplay retweaking we'll look at it, but, it's looking at a no still. Sorry.

 

[camelot]

And it also has to be taken into consideration that the knee has 4 frames (and a tiny hitbox) to hit; landing it is very hard compared to most other moves.

It's 1 frame in Brawl.

 

[Alphatron]

It's 1 frame in Brawl.

Impossible. Or do you mean that it comes out on the first frame in vbrawl?

 

[cubaisdeath]

no, the sweetspot knee is more than 1 frame in vbrawl. its at least 2

 

[Magus420]

CloneHat, I think you're confusing the significantly lower KB of the knee at low percents from its BKB change for actual kill power. The change to its KO power is pretty slight. It still KOs very well, and no it's not very hard to land when he has quite a few ways to combo into it (some of those being new). Getting the sweetspot on it is not difficult either. Also, there's no way up-b is killing at 100-120 from the middle of the stage unless it was Ivysaur or just plain bad DI, which should never happen given how easy it is to DI on reaction.


Yes, sweetspot knee is the 1st hit frame only, and the hitbox has the highest priority and will be what goes through if the flub hitbox also connects.