Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[SymphonicSage12]

the hitstun isn't that bad. It's about the same as melee. >.> maybe a tad more.

and we nerfed the airdodges. >.>


and, um...a lot of people play brawl+.

and a lot of those "easy" combos can be escaped.

 

[timothyung]

It's more than Melee... by a bit.
And even after the airdodges are nerfed, they are still much better than in Melee.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

then lower the hitstun "a bit".

and the airdodges don't need to be nerfed anymore. If they are nerfed anymore, me, as Peach main, will make heads roll.

 

[cobaltblue]

Will Sonic's insta shield nair and HA changes make the cut for the final build? I was rather looking forward to them.

 

[CloneHat]

Wait.

I just realized that the size AND power of the Knee was decreased.

Who's idea was this?

 

[SymphonicSage12]

the knee was OP in the last build. It was toned down. >.>

 

[Marth175]

Wait.

I just realized that the size AND power of the Knee was decreased.

Who's idea was this?

i also noticed this, why was this done???

 

[SymphonicSage12]

The size was WAY too big. and OP.

 

[jalued]

then lower the hitstun "a bit".

and the airdodges don't need to be nerfed anymore. If they are nerfed anymore, me, as Peach main, will make heads roll.

its less the frames for airdodging, and more to do with the punishability of airdodges. In melee all you could really do to escape combos was to jump away, and if u had no jump u were juggled alot in brawl+ atm the histun is so high that you can hardly ever jump away. I understand that there is a very difficult fine line to draw here as how to balnce brawl style airdodge with combos.

i would not be up for reducing the frames of airdodges, as then characters like peach would basically not have an airdodge , but surely some sort of pre-airdodge-lag or after lag combined with lower hitstun and more Upgrav would make airdodging out of combos a much less favourable option than jumping out. Im not saying that u should go into freefall after airdodges, its just obviously a pretty difficult thing to balance and tune.

best of luck to all the programmers, you are all awesome!

 

[Revven]

Will Sonic's insta shield nair and HA changes make the cut for the final build? I was rather looking forward to them.

What you're looking at now is a potential final build. If whatever is not in it, chances are, if the character is doing fine they won't get anymore changes. Meaning that, because none of that stuff is there in this release (except the HA cancel into Side B/Up B/Down B) Sonic likely won't be getting those two things you mentioned if he proves to do well.

That's why it's called RC1 meaning Release Candidate 1. While this set is sitting out here, we'll be working on gameplay changes. If there are any characters to balance again, it will be based off of the results from any tourneys that happened during that time period, plus if they need to be readjusted for whatever we change.

 

[Marth175]

it feels kinda weird but i guess i could get used to it, but maybe it could be a little stronger since the size was toned down, it feels just like vbrawls knee

 

[Revven]

The KB on it has never been changed. It's fine the way it is now, there's two hitboxes for it now so it can have reversible-KB.

 

[Alphatron]

The size was WAY too big. and OP.

The power nerf man. Not the size. Everyone knew they'd be a size nerf after the last nightly.

And it was already stated that ADs were a wait and see the Sidestep changes thing. They'll probably be nerfed if need be. But I'm totally baffled on how an overpowered AD attributes to EZ mode combos. Are you airdodging during a combo or something? Enlighten me.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

you know, you could just personally add in the NADT code. >.>

 

[CloneHat]

The KB on it has never been changed. It's fine the way it is now, there's two hitboxes for it now so it can have reversible-KB.

Eh?

F-Air:
-Sweetspot: [1x Size; 19 Dmg; 93->89 KBG; 30->15 BKB; 32∞]

Spoiler

10chars

 

[Alphatron]

you know, you could just personally add in the NADT code. >.>

Some people do. Personally I don't know if NY has any B+ tournies...and online is the only way I get to play with anyone decent. Tis why I don't use CSPs or mess with the gct.

 

[cobaltblue]

What you're looking at now is a potential final build. If whatever is not in it, chances are, if the character is doing fine they won't get anymore changes. Meaning that, because none of that stuff is there in this release (except the HA cancel into Side B/Up B/Down B) Sonic likely won't be getting those two things you mentioned if he proves to do well.

That's why it's called RC1 meaning Release Candidate 1. While this set is sitting out here, we'll be working on gameplay changes. If there are any characters to balance again, it will be based off of the results from any tourneys that happened during that time period, plus if they need to be readjusted for whatever we change.

Awww, I really liked the neutral since it was actually based off Sonic 3.

 

[GHNeko]

^ This

S3K Nair was so **** pimp.

 

[timothyung]

I checked the pac, and in Falcon's Knee first frame, there's a hitbox with 50 angle, 80 KBG, and 35 BKB, 6 damage.

EDIT:
nvm. That's the flub hitbox.

EDITEDIT:
In vBrawl, there's only one sweetspot hitbox, size 3. In the new pac, there are two size 4 hitboxes >.>

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

wow so cuba was serious, D3 fsmash is gonna be the new ganon utilt cancel lmao

 

[kupo15]

Yes... because believe it or not, nobody among the WBR has agreed to anything about it.

What!? It was decided a while back that they were stupid and removes control from the player. It was added then removed because it was glitchy. Now you have the tools to add it back in fixed and you choose not to and the community also wants no auto jabs as well..

Wtf WBR? What wacked out rational explains the way you guys get or not get stuff done?

Than remove it at request of the community!

This

the hitstun isn't that bad. It's about the same as melee. >.> maybe a tad more.

Excuse me? You really have no idea do you? Hitstun is much higher. I'm pretty sure melee's hitstun equivalent would be no additional hitstun...as in .4 float. Weren't you also the one who couldn't tell that melee is faster than B+?

and a lot of those "easy" combos can be escaped.

I lol'ed

and the airdodges don't need to be nerfed anymore. If they are nerfed anymore, me, as Peach main, will make heads roll.

Now make them have moon gravity so your invincibility frames is contained to a small area

you know, you could just personally add in the NADT code. >.>

Or the WBR could add it to the official set for everyone

>.>

For someone who talks a lot and says very little, you sure are getting pretty cocky.

 

[Revven]

What!? It was decided a while back that they were stupid and removes control from the player. It was added then removed because it was glitchy. Now you have the tools to add it back in fixed and you choose not to and the community also wants no auto jabs as well..

Wtf WBR? What wacked out rational explains the way you guys get or not get stuff done?

1) A lot of us were very busy the week before this week.

2) A lot of us have lives.

3) We're all not on at the same time, for instance, I go to school every weekday from 8 AM-3 PM while shanus goes to work for the entire day and doesn't get home until late at night and Yeroc (another example) is at work every day idling in the IRC. Nobody in the WBR is on at the same one time, we get stuff done at different time intervals. Stuff gets done when I'm not around (late at night) and stuff gets done when I am there (during the day). There are things that don't get done because other things take priority over it.

4) Deadline. Two tourneys happened this weekend, there was no need to delay the set just because "olololol Snake can hang there holding A and that's all you have to do to jab" because it's not really a "BIG BIG BIG" issue that needs to be gotten take care of. Just because you think it's a huge problem that pressing A three times needs to happen so jabs aren't so "easypass" or "campy" doesn't mean it gets done. What would get it done is, everyone agreed to it, which as you saw with Snake tilts even that was a ***** to get through. It'll be hell to take away Snake's autojab now that he's had his tilts nerfed, let me tell you that much.

5) Priority. Getting spot dodges fixed is far and away more important than autojabs.

Thanks for listening.

 

[Perfect Chaos]

Meaning that, because none of that stuff is there in this release (except the HA cancel into Side B/Up B/Down B) Sonic likely won't be getting those two things you mentioned if he proves to do well...
...While this set is sitting out here, we'll be working on gameplay changes. If there are any characters to balance again, it will be based off of the results from any tourneys that happened during that time period, plus if they need to be readjusted for whatever we change.

Okay Sonic mains...start sucking it up at tournaments for the next couple of months!!

Anyway, gameplay changes will alter the tier list somewhat, so even if a character does okay in this set, they still might need changes after those gameplay changes to buff/nerf then in compensation for the nerf/buff that they received from said gameplay changes. So I guess anyone that wanted a character to have something that didn't make the cut could still have hope, depending on the circumstances.
(Personally, I'm just hoping for a way to speed up Homing Attack's charge; but sadly, it might not make it in even if someone finds out how to do it. )

 

[kupo15]

1) A lot of us were very busy the week before this week.

2) A lot of us have lives.

3) We're all not on at the same time, for instance, I go to school every weekday from 8 AM-3 PM while shanus goes to work for the entire day and doesn't get home until late at night and Yeroc (another example) is at work every day idling in the IRC. Nobody in the WBR is on at the same one time, we get stuff done at different time intervals. Stuff gets done when I'm not around (late at night) and stuff gets done when I am there (during the day). There are things that don't get done because other things take priority over it.

4) Deadline. Two tourneys happened this weekend, there was no need to delay the set just because "olololol Snake can hang there holding A and that's all you have to do to jab" because it's not really a "BIG BIG BIG" issue that needs to be gotten take care of. Just because you think it's a huge problem that pressing A three times needs to happen so jabs aren't so "easypass" or "campy" doesn't mean it gets done. What would get it done is, everyone agreed to it, which as you saw with Snake tilts even that was a ***** to get through. It'll be hell to take away Snake's autojab now that he's had his tilts nerfed, let me tell you that much.

5) Priority. Getting spot dodges fixed is far and away more important than autojabs.

Thanks for listening.

I interpreted it as in no one agreed on wanting it to be done period. As in, you guys changed your minds, again.

 

[timothyung]

Do you think adding landing lag to air dodges will work? Like 10 additional frames?

 

[Perfect Chaos]

Kupo tried that a while back in his nightly. It was taken out since ROB will freeze if you air-dodge into the ground with him...

 

[Revven]

I interpreted it as in no one agreed on wanting it to be done period. As in, you guys changed your minds, again.

We haven't decided on changing autojabs, meaning, we haven't talked about it.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Kupo, did you just say that vbrawl has as much hitstun as melee? "The equivalent would be no additional hitstun" etc.? I'm pretty sure vbrawl has less.

Also, are we going to implement the water idea that kupo had? Like moon gravity or something to that effect?


And about stages: Please fix the super slow reappearance of the mansion on LM. It's kinda weird.

And MK1-2 needs Neko's idea. Badly.

( Yes I know that no stage changes even planned for this current set)

 

[Marth175]

why is there no aerial attack landing lag? is this supposed to be some easy version of L-canceling?

 

[SymphonicSage12]

It's ALR.

aerial lag reduction.


It's been in for like...ever...

it's basically auto l-cancelling.


and no, it's not going to be changed. at least, not to my knowledge.

and there still is aerial lag when landing. Try bowser's bair. it's still noticeable.

 

[Marth175]

i hadnt noticed it before as much as in this build, its pretty amazing since i never could L-cancel properly anyway

On another note, metaknights tornado feels really but i mean really slow when it connects, the hitlag feels a little too much

 

[Wavedash Master]

Kupo, did you just say that vbrawl has as much hitstun as melee? "The equivalent would be no additional hitstun" etc.? I'm pretty sure vbrawl has less.

He might be correct in fact. There's a lot of things in vBrawl that prevented you from doing combos (no lag reductions, slow jump speeds, low knockback on moves, airdodges, overall speed of game) besides hitstun.

 

[zxeon]

SymphonicSage12 you are setting yourself up for an epic beatdown. I'm gonna let Kupo deliver it. Just wait until he gets back.

 

[Alphatron]

And about stages: Please fix the super slow reappearance of the mansion on LM. It's kinda weird.

And MK1-2 needs Neko's idea. Badly.

PK might be able to do it. However PK is busy. Same applies to pretty much any stage change.

About Kupo's moon grav idea for Airdodges, I'm against it. For one thing, it destroys the remains of the SHAD approach. And it also allows for stalling since B+ airdodge doesn't put you in freefall.

What I would rather see would be a limit on the number of times you can airdodge before landing. This limit can differ from character to character to character. I believe that this would allow for some more pressure on the airborne defender, since they can't mindlessly fast fall airdodge back to the ground as much as they wish and would be forced to use their airdodges wisely. Of course, the amount of times you could airdodge would be relatively low.

This is just me talking though. I don't know how hard it would be to implement.

Edit: Magus cancelling tests over the next few months, por favor?

 

[kupo15]

Kupo tried that a while back in his nightly. It was taken out since ROB will freeze if you air-dodge into the ground with him...

Well, I didn't try adding 10 frames to it. I tried giving it the "fallspecial" landing lag which froze ROB because he doesn't have that animation. I remember Leaf telling me a while back that Melee's AD landing lag came from a slowed down "hard landing" lag so it stretches to 10 frames of "hard landing" lag. I'm sure this would work in Brawl like it did in melee. Question is whether or not you could slow it down to 10 frames for only landing from an AD without it affecting normal hard landing lag.

And speaking of hard landing lag, you really don't see this in Brawl/+ for that matter. Like at all. You always see lagless landings for just about everything even falling from a high height. I really don't get it. A suggesting to balance the spamming and camping of projectiles (esp falco's lasers) would be to always be put into the hard landing so you get 2 frames of lag instead of 0 lag which is how it is now. This should also be applied to all Zairs as well. This should be considered at least for all zairs and projectile landings if not for all forms of landing. This could probably allow for both hard landing lag from specials and normal landings (2 frames) and "special landing" lag for ADes (10 frames)

Kupo, did you just say that vbrawl has as much hitstun as melee? "The equivalent would be no additional hitstun" etc.? I'm pretty sure vbrawl has less.

lol. How did I know that once again you would get it wrong? Vbrawl's default hitstun is .4. It also is cancelable with an attack or AD which means that you see everyone canceling the hitstun earlier than it should be. I did NOT say to remove the hitstun code completely, I said set the setting of hitstun to brawl's default which is .4.

There is a very big difference between the two.

Also, are we going to implement the water idea that kupo had? Like moon gravity or something to that effect?

I hope so.

 

[T-major]

This looks really awesome, and I'd love to try this out. the only problem with this is that it requires Homebrew Channel... is there any possibility of this not requiring Homebrew to work in the future? Balanced Brawl doesn't require it, so (as far as I know) it's possible.

if possible, I think it would be a smart move to make this playable on any Wii.
(also, sorry if this has already been answered)

 

[Shell]

The KB on it has never been changed. It's fine the way it is now, there's two hitboxes for it now so it can have reversible-KB.

Actually, the KB was lessened. Magus wanted to decentralize Falcon's game from the knee a little bit, so he took a touch of KB from the knee and lovingly poured it into the Up-B.

I don't have exact percent data, but while the old knee could kill Mario near the edge of FD in the 60ish% (!) range, the new one is in roughly the 80ish% range.

Meanwhile, the Up-B has become a surprisingly dangerous combo finisher. It expands his combo game because the vertical boost gives him the ability to finish off foes that might've been launched too high to finish with his knee, and it's function as a grab box makes for some good mixups.

The exact kill percents elude me, but it's quite strong -- possibly too strong. We'll see.

 

[zxeon]

How much Hitstun are we using right now, .6 something right?

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

kupo why do you keep harassing the wbr to change brawl+ more to what you want? all these radical changes you're proposing would totally require them to rebuild the game from the start. you don't even play the game, and you probably haven't even given the newest build a chance. maybe you should just accept the fact that shanus' and cape's brawl+ won and yours didn't and move on with your life. :/

 

[SymphonicSage12]

t-major, there's a without homebrew hack....


and homebrew isn't that bad anyways....