Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[Arkaether]

A frame advantage is when the lag of a move ends before the shieldstun of the opponent. In other words, you're free to act while the opponent's still in stun. Peach's fair has 22 frames, meaning she can pretty much do whatever she wants while you're nothing but a sitting duck. As Kaiser pointed out in the Peach thread, this leads into shieldbreak combos.

To quote GHNeko: ffff ninja;d

 

[CloneHat]

A frame advantage is when the lag of a move ends before the shieldstun of the opponent. In other words, you're free to act while the opponent's still in stun. Peach's fair has 22 frames, meaning she can pretty much do whatever she wants while you're nothing but a sitting duck. As Kaiser pointed out in the Peach thread, this leads into shieldbreak combos.

To quote GHNeko: ffff ninja;d

SCARY! Are there any other attacks that do that?

 

[cAm8ooo]

Just because it has a frame advantage doesnt mean you can necessarily shield break with it, correct? Fair has a slow start up, i dont see a shield break combo coming from just fair.

 

[Roxas215]

Peach's fair was also like this in vbrawl. I hope yall aren't thinking of only taking out her frame advantage and adding nothing to her. A trade off of her frame advantage in favor of a faster fastfall speed is fine. But taking something out which was their from the beginning while adding nothing is just dumb.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Samus has frame advantage with her dair also, idk if it as much as peach though.

 

[Arkaether]

Yes, except that vBrawl Peach didn't really have that much of a frame advantage. -18 frame advantage uncancelled, -2 canceled. Note the negatives. That means it's a disadvantage. Compare that to B+ with increased shieldstun where she has +22 frame advantage. See the difference?

Though I'm personally kind of skeptical about the +22. I think something somewhere is miscalculated; I figured it more as +6 or +8. My Wii's out, though, so I can't test the frame data.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Peach's fair was also like this in vbrawl. I hope yall aren't thinking of only taking out her frame advantage and adding nothing to her. A trade off of her frame advantage in favor of a faster fastfall speed is fine. But taking something out which was their from the beginning while adding nothing is just dumb.

I don't necessarily believe a faster fastfall speed should be considered a buff for any character. I know how you see it, it does, but I see the optimizing of character physics to be a given for any and all characters (not all of them need to be changed per say if they're already optimized). If you're looking for a trade-off buff, give her a buff to...some move? (I don't know my Peach that well), and then give her the fastfall change anyway if her physics seem to call for it. I'll take your word on the matter.

 

[GHNeko]

Peach's fair was also like this in vbrawl. I hope yall aren't thinking of only taking out her frame advantage and adding nothing to her. A trade off of her frame advantage in favor of a faster fastfall speed is fine. But taking something out which was their from the beginning while adding nothing is just dumb.

We're not trying to remove the shield advantage. We're trying to reduce it so that is not nearly half a second long.


Also, in vBrawl, when AC'd she had a -2 advantage, AND you forget about Up B OOS options. :|

You cant Up B OOS against a Fair.

 

[onionchowder]

Did they alter Peach's Fair at all, or just the shieldstun formula? If it's the ladder, I think Samus' Dair might also need tweaking.

And to whoever mentioned it, Peach's Fair comes out on frame, so shield-break combos are very possible, assuming that +22 frame advantage is accurate

@GHNeko - yeah, sorry for pseudo-double-posting, but the school wifi blocks AiB.

 

[Roxas215]

We're not trying to remove the shield advantage. We're trying to reduce it so that is not nearly half a second long.


Also, in vBrawl, when AC'd she had a -2 advantage, AND you forget about Up B OOS options. :|

You cant Up B OOS against a Fair.

True enough! I stand corrected!

 

[Arkaether]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=6596758&postcount=107

Update, apparently, previously a mistaken understanding of shield stun was being used. vBrawl shieldstun was calculated at 14, not 4. It's actually 5, so the actual frame advantage should be more around 13 or 14.

...which is still absurdly high.

And the difference between Peach's frame advantage and Samus' is that Samus can't land a guaranteed grab after it, and you have a lot of options against Samus.

 

[cAm8ooo]

lols at +22 frame advantage. I had no idea it was THAT big. Yea, a shield breaker combo is very possible.

 

[Arkaether]

It'd be nice if we had confirmation on any of this frame data, though. I'm sure some of the coders/WBRs know the specifics.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Even at 22 frame advantage, she can't shieldbreak with fair alone.

To autocancel, she'd have to wait 4 frames after the hit (hits on frame 16, autocancels at 20) which would give her the fastest recovery. Then it takes 6 frames for her to become airborne after her jump. Then another 16 to hit with the fair again, giving 26 frames between hits.

26 frame advantage would be required to shield break with the move if you were absolutely frame perfect.

The frame advantage might need work, but it's not going to be breaking shields. Though I wouldn't go around shielding fairs from Peach players either.


This all assuming that I'm not tired enough to forget basic math, of course. @.@

 

[cAm8ooo]

****, forgot to add the jumping frames.

 

[Arkaether]

No, the +22 frame advantage is actually calculated with the 4 frame AC taken into account. 6 frames for jumping and 16 frames for the first hit of fair to come out means it would work with frame-perfect timing. And that's what buffer's for.

The 22 is calculated such: assuming 14 shield stun and the new shield stun formula of New=old*2+3.5, you'd have 31.5 frames of shield stun. Since optimal fair on shield in vBrawl gives a 0 frame advantage, that means 5 frames hitlag + 4 AC frames subtracted from 31 shieldstun gives a 22 frame advantage.

 

[Magus420]

Guys, it's already been said that the +22 figure is way off. It should be more like +7 or +8. I don't know how the hitlag code affects the difference in hitlag Peach and the blocker have so that may affect it (Peach had 1 more than the blocker before which reduced the advantage by 1). We have a frame advance code to test these sort of things directly anyway...

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Hmm. That could prove to be a problem then.

Honestly though, that's assuming you throw out an fair at frame 6, and fastfall at exactly frame 20 of the move. Buffer will help with the first, but not so much with the second. Though even assuming you fall too early or too late, you still have the frame advantage.

It appears that this is going to need some work.

 

[CountKaiser]

The 22 takes into account the AC, tatsuman.

However, the fair apparently only had 5 frames shield stun in vbrawl, which gives it 13.5 frames shield stun in brawl+.

 

[leafgreen386]

I love the way misinformation spreads. The shieldstun of peach's fair in vbrawl was 5 frames. Not 14. This means that it has 13 or 14 frames of shieldstun in brawl+. Which, after taking into account the fall time from when the fair is executed and the landlag (hey, even normal landings have landlag) turns out to be an 8 or 9 frame advantage.

Granted, 8 or 9 frames is by no means small, but it's considerably better than 22, which could have even resulted in a shieldbreak combo. Her grab comes out frame 6 (and so does her dash grab), so there is indeed enough time for her to get a free grab off of a shielded fair.

 

[XSilvenX]

I think you guys are jumping too ahead of yourselves with the whole Peach thing. It's not humanly possible to be consistently frame perfect in a 60 fps game first of all, even with buffering...I think we're giving pros way too much credit here. You're not gonna see any Peach's breaking shields in Brawl+ with Fair or any other funny combination like that. The blocked fair to grab thing isn't such a big deal though if you think of all the other characters who can "tick throw" like that (The term is from SF but applies in every fighter..look it up).

I suggest you guys don't worry about it much unless you actually see someone do it in tournament or in friendlies. And please save that match when it does happen, I'd love to see that lol. I see the intention here and it's very good but you don't need to be that proactive. So Peach can Fair to grab....something she's been mixing up since Melee. Big deal. We already know with Peach it's either:

Blocked fair>double slap>whatever

or

Blocked fair>single slap>CC>grab

or

Blocked fair>grab (in this case)

It's really nothing new...

Also are you guys forgetting that most Peaches will perfectly space their fair? This means that there's no way she is gonna dash grab you in 8-9 frames with so much distance to cover.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

5 frames? Peach Frame Data thread on the Peach boards is incorrect then, my bad.

Now I feel dumb. >.>

 

[Nybb]

Has it ever been considered to modify character size for balance? When I say size I mean hitbox/hurtbox size together, if that wasn't already obvious. It seems to me that Brawl+ is leaning towards the lighter characters, so I'm just throwing out an idea. Perhaps the size difference between the biggest and smallest characters could be increased? Either big characters could be made bigger, or small characters made smaller.

I'm kind of picturing Potemkin from Guilty Gear. He is so huge compared to the rest of the cast...he is fairly easy to combo if you can get inside his wall, but he has quite a few attacks that go really far (literally 2/3 of the screen on some lol). It generally works out for him though, and he is generally considered to be quite high in the tiers (talking specifically about Accent Core). Making characters like Boswer or DK bigger would IMO add to atmosphere and could maybe balance them a bit more by giving them more range.

This is all very speculative on my part, so...discuss?


Also, when is the next nightly build coming out?

 

[XSilvenX]

Sounds pretty weird to me. I get where you're coming from Nybb because having a small hitbox certainly does provide a hurtbox advantage but it also comes with lack of range and being easily outspaced by med/long range characters. In the right hands of course.... I still think it's way too early to say who's the best and stuff like that. For the most part, we know Squirtle is amazing but the Brawl+ competitive community is very small and I'll need a lot more active players that play with diverse characters to really convince me. So far, we've been going off of friendlies primarily which is ok..but not as definite as tournament results with said characters.

 

[GHNeko]

*snip*

In Melee, a grab was NOT guaranteed. You could do it, and if you got the grab, they ****ed up.

In B+, a grab will occur 100% of the time they are within range for a grab.

For 11 hours, I played against AC Fair and Dsmash. No character in B+ should be guaranteed a grab after a move like Fair. You're getting punished for blocking a kill move. And if she grabs you, she can combo you for more damage the fair alone would of dealt. If its nothing new, I'm surprised its gone unchecked for so long.

Imo, that's really stupid. I dont mind jab follow ups, but when you get grabbed by a DECENT peach, you know that you're getting at least 20%+ in combos, where as Fair simply does 15% alone.

That's not right. Nothing wrong with Fair being safe, but if its so safe that you can follow up with a grab which leads to combos with Peach, doing more damage overall than the original move itself would do, that's not cool. She can follow up fair even if you spot dodge fair.

Seriously. You want to leave this move go unchecked?

 

[Blank Mauser]

Has it ever been considered to modify character size for balance? When I say size I mean hitbox/hurtbox size together, if that wasn't already obvious. It seems to me that Brawl+ is leaning towards the lighter characters, so I'm just throwing out an idea. Perhaps the size difference between the biggest and smallest characters could be increased? Either big characters could be made bigger, or small characters made smaller.

I'm kind of picturing Potemkin from Guilty Gear. He is so huge compared to the rest of the cast...he is fairly easy to combo if you can get inside his wall, but he has quite a few attacks that go really far (literally 2/3 of the screen on some lol). It generally works out for him though, and he is generally considered to be quite high in the tiers (talking specifically about Accent Core). Making characters like Boswer or DK bigger would IMO add to atmosphere and could maybe balance them a bit more by giving them more range.

This is all very speculative on my part, so...discuss?


Also, when is the next nightly build coming out?

A lot of people had some great range in that game though. Bridget had some amazing high-priority pokes and arguably the best mobility with it. If anything set Potemkin apart it was the amount of damage his moves did, which is something I think should be considered upping for the heavies.

In Melee, a grab was NOT guaranteed. You could do it, and if you got the grab, they ****ed up.

In B+, a grab will occur 100% of the time they are within range for a grab.

For 11 hours, I played against AC Fair and Dsmash. No character in B+ should be guaranteed a grab after a move like Fair. You're getting punished for blocking a kill move. And if she grabs you, she can combo you for more damage the fair alone would of dealt. If its nothing new, I'm surprised its gone unchecked for so long.

Imo, that's really stupid. I dont mind jab follow ups, but when you get grabbed by a DECENT peach, you know that you're getting at least 20%+ in combos, where as Fair simply does 15% alone.

That's not right. Nothing wrong with Fair being safe, but if its so safe that you can follow up with a grab which leads to combos with Peach, doing more damage overall than the original move itself would do, that's not cool. She can follow up fair even if you spot dodge fair.

Seriously. You want to leave this move go unchecked?

Being punished for blocking a predictable move is not uncommon. It is simply just something that needs to be looked out for. Fair comes out pretty slow, and with the amount of frame advantage she gets she would literally need to fair right next to the shielding opponent for the grab, which puts her at an easy risk to be grabbed herself. At the very least, if you have time to block it you have time to roll away, as trying to punish it is usually a bad idea anyways.

 

[B3Brawler]

would it be possible to decrease up grav while tumbling, it would nerf alot of stupid Utilt combos (TL, Fox, ect)

 

[XSilvenX]

In Melee, a grab was NOT guaranteed. You could do it, and if you got the grab, they ****ed up.

In B+, a grab will occur 100% of the time they are within range for a grab.

For 11 hours, I played against AC Fair and Dsmash. No character in B+ should be guaranteed a grab after a move like Fair. You're getting punished for blocking a kill move. And if she grabs you, she can combo you for more damage the fair alone would of dealt. If its nothing new, I'm surprised its gone unchecked for so long.

Imo, that's really stupid. I dont mind jab follow ups, but when you get grabbed by a DECENT peach, you know that you're getting at least 20%+ in combos, where as Fair simply does 15% alone.

That's not right. Nothing wrong with Fair being safe, but if its so safe that you can follow up with a grab which leads to combos with Peach, doing more damage overall than the original move itself would do, that's not cool. She can follow up fair even if you spot dodge fair.

Seriously. You want to leave this move go unchecked?

Good points although I really wasn't comparing anything to Melee

I guess in that case I sorta agree with the nerf. It's funny though, I never ran into this problem actually PLAYING against any Peaches in Brawl+ so it's pretty interesting, but then again they probably didn't know it was guaranteed.

I actually would like to see what happens with the current set (5/13) after I tell a Peach player this though...

Another thing I wanna point out is what Mauser is sorta trying to say which is just because the theoretical frame math works out does not mean it will actually happen that way. Frames in Smash are important but not consistently exact with so many variables like the height at which the move was cancelled, distance away, at which point the person shielded the move. This offsets frames by a lot so I dunno.

I did just mess around with her in training mode vs the CPU (I don't approve of testing things this way because CPU's are fail) and I never missed a grab (after shielded fair) with Peach and it really does look like a true frame trap opportunity that's easy with buffering too.

 

[crazycrackers]

Peach fair frame advantage should be 4 frames instead of the 7 or 8 it is now. Grab comes out on frame 6 so this way fair retains its pressure ability but doesn't guaruntee a grab.

 

[GHNeko]

Being punished for blocking a predictable move is not uncommon. It is simply just something that needs to be looked out for. Fair comes out pretty slow, and with the amount of frame advantage she gets she would literally need to fair right next to the shielding opponent for the grab, which puts her at an easy risk to be grabbed herself. At the very least, if you have time to block it you have time to roll away, as trying to punish it is usually a bad idea anyways.

It's a kill move. It's not THAT slow. AC'd is has virutally no lag. Peach means really on it in Melee, Brawl, and deff B+. And it can be used as a ******** shield pressure tool.

A smart peach knows exactly when to use fair, and if its safe on block, sidestep, and hit because you have a frame advantage in all 3 cases, its not like its a high risk move. If you whiff it entirely, you can shield or even side step, as the inviciframes of sidestep pop up on frame 2.

Name any other move that has little cooldown, can be used as a kill move, and has a frame advantage on hit/block/sidestep.

And if you do, I'll propose the same thing. Not even MK has that. Not even Marth has that.

 

[XSilvenX]

Neko, I think you had a few typos in there but umm lol..

No need to get feisty now. For the most part I do agree it should get nerfed because what I saw just now was kinda crazy lol. It's scary to think what really good Peach players will do with it if it stays actually. *sh-ts pants*

It really is lagless now with the ALR codes.

So what would the potential fix be for this nerf? Within practical means of what can be done with codes at the moment of course..

 

[GHNeko]

Late night johns and "laying down to type" posture johns for spelling.

One of the fixes that we thought about is adjusting the Base KB, as that is directly related to how much shield stun a move has. Moves with high Base KB have more shield stun, and vise versa. By reducing BKB and increasing Knock Back Growth in proper proportion.

 

[Magus420]

A couple ways I can think of to possibly get the max block advantage down to +4/+5 are:

1) Adjust the shield hitlag differential for the move from -1 to -4, so she is stopped in hitlag an additional 3 more frames than the opponent when it hits a shield. The attack otherwise functions exactly the same.
2) Slow frames 18 and 19 to 0.4x speed, so that the autocancel window begin 3 frames later. To AC it you'd need to delay your landing a tiny bit longer than normal.
3) Reduce the base KB by (?) and increase KB growth to compensate.
4) Reduce the damage of the attack to somewhere around 10-11% instead of 15% and increase the growth and such to bring the knockback back to normal. I don't think this option would be well received...
5) Some combination of the above.


I don't believe the 1st code exists, but I think it's something to look into making at some point anyway since you would be able to really tweak how moves work on block without altering the other properties of the move.

You could also use it to make a sort of attack specific 'hard' shieldstun additive that's separate from normal shieldstun and is also unaffected by powershielding if you give it a value in the attacker's favor. You could also reduce it by making the attacker have more hitlag than the defender.

A good example of a move I know that has a significant amount of this is Sheik's f-tilt which has a shield hitlag diff of +3 in vbrawl. When blocked she is in hitlag for just 3 frames while the opponent is for 6. When it actually hits them and not the shield however they both have 3 hitlag. Because of that her f-tilt in vbrawl effectively has even more shield 'stun' when powershielded than a lot of moves in the game have when blocked normally, lol.

 

[GHNeko]

1. I dont think thats possible.
2. IIRC, Leaf didnt want to mess with AC frames for whatever reasons.
3. That was our initial plan of action, and is probably what is going to happen.
4. I think the shield stun is related directly to BKB, but Im not sure how damage would affect it. My theory is that we'd get the same effect because of proportions.
5. i dunno, lol

 

[Magus420]

1) I don't think it's a possible fix for in the immediate future since there are more high priority codes to be made and like 1-2 coders to work on them, but I think it'd be a very useful one that should probably be looked into at some point.
4) What is the shieldstun formula anyway? From what I have seen damage scales with shieldstun rather closely.

 

[Almas]

AFAIK the exact way shieldstun operates in Brawl has never been calculated. We merely remotely modify the number once it's already been figured out.

 

[KAN]

Maybe this has been known for long, but maybe not...

If a match ends and you prematurely press z to save the replay, the result screen won't show up and the game will freeze. Just push it after the result screen loaded.
It happens with my game, may be due to the textures, I'm not sure.

Also a little bit feedback:
Holy ****, Link got buffed good. O_o
My pal ***** the **** outta me with him.
The front smash has a mean angle, is fast and hits hard, the downtilt is a really good spike and the Up-B is a good get-away-move.
Nice changes. I have to practice harder. ._.

What does the momentum fix exactly do to Bowser's and the other's Up-Bs?
I can't seem to recover as good as before, but maybe that is due to Links #!@?* downtilt. :D

And I have another question: When was Bowser's gravity changed? He falls extremely slow. I mess up the teching fairly often. Is that new or has it been in the plusery set? (Which I played the most.) Probably it's just me...

 

[CloneHat]

Maybe this has been known for long, but maybe not...

If a match ends and you prematurely press z to save the replay, the result screen won't show up and the game will freeze. Just push it after the result screen loaded.
It happens with my game, may be due to the textures, I'm not sure.

Also a little bit feedback:
Holy ****, Link got buffed good. O_o
My pal ***** the **** outta me with him.
The front smash has a mean angle, is fast and hits hard, the downtilt is a really good spike and the Up-B is a good get-away-move.
Nice changes. I have to practice harder. ._.

What does the momentum fix exactly do to Bowser's and the other's Up-Bs?
I can't seem to recover as good as before, but maybe that is due to Links #!@?* downtilt. :D

And I have another question: When was Bowser's gravity changed? He falls extremely slow. I mess up the teching fairly often. Is that new or has it been in the plusery set? (Which I played the most.) Probably it's just me...

You can't press anything after the match starts, or else it will freeze before the results screen. The reason you're having trouble recovering is because of no auto-snap ledges, so you don't automatically suck to the edge in mid-recovery. Finally, the momentum does nothing to the UpBs anymore, because there was a fix for it.

 

[KAN]

You can't press anything after the match starts, or else it will freeze before the results screen. The reason you're having trouble recovering is because of no auto-snap ledges, so you don't automatically suck to the edge in mid-recovery. Finally, the momentum does nothing to the UpBs anymore, because there was a fix for it.

Oh. So the freezing not only happens for the replay button. Thanks.

And I know the ASL. It's not because of this code. I also played Melee, you know.
The ASL code is brilliant. That's definetly not my problem. I just seem to suck more than before.
(And with before I mean a few weeks ago also playing with the ASL code. )

 

[slimpyman]

ivysaur is broken... who else thinks codesets should be consolidated in hopes of there only be 1 brawl+ in hopes of making it mainstream