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[SketchHurricane]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say nothing needs to be done to Peach's fair. I'm going to go out on another limb and say the fact that you can sometimes get the guaranteed grab is fine. I don't see a problem with these type of things in fighting games.

Don't forget all the other variables at play here. If a Peach player is skilled enough to perfectly space the fair for a guaranteed grab, then that's a reward. Don't forget shield push + improper spacing, don't forget spotdoding and rolling. Hell, don't forget that fair is slow and can be beaten by tons of other fast moves. There are plenty of things that can completely shut down any attempt to get a free grab from fair in this case. Good players study match-ups for this exact reason, and the meta game will teach players not to idly block a float canceling Peach.

There's no need to nerf everything that is suddenly discovered as effective. At some point we're going to have to stop all this nitpicking and let the **** game develop for some amount of time.

 

[Yingyay]

know what'd be cool?
If the first hit of Sheik's fsmash had no knockback, so it could combo into the second hit easier. Like Zamus fair.
I agree on leaving peach's fair alone, its not that big a deal. Its a telegraphed move anyway, if peach is floating towards you, you already know whats coming anyway. Dodge people.

 

[JCaesar]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say nothing needs to be done to Peach's fair. I'm going to go out on another limb and say the fact that you can sometimes get the guaranteed grab is fine. I don't see a problem with these type of things in fighting games.

Don't forget all the other variables at play here. If a Peach player is skilled enough to perfectly space the fair for a guaranteed grab, then that's a reward. Don't forget shield push + improper spacing, don't forget spotdoding and rolling. Hell, don't forget that fair is slow and can be beaten by tons of other fast moves. There are plenty of things that can completely shut down any attempt to get a free grab from fair in this case. Good players study match-ups for this exact reason, and the meta game will teach players not to idly block a float canceling Peach.

There's no need to nerf everything that is suddenly discovered as effective. At some point we're going to have to stop all this nitpicking and let the **** game develop for some amount of time.

I agree with this. Peach has a fantastic shield-pressure game, it's just a character strength. There's nothing broken about being able to grab out of a shielded fair. It's easy to see coming, and it's not that hard to avoid the situation entirely.

 

[Revven]

ivysaur is broken... who else thinks codesets should be consolidated in hopes of there only be 1 brawl+ in hopes of making it mainstream

He's not broken, learn the ****ing match up.

 

[Sudai]

This whole project has turned Falco400 into a very angry person.. : (

 

[Yingyay]

This whole project has turned Falco400 into a very angry person.. : (

lol agreed. And im partly to blame V_V
coughsheikfsmashsuggestioncough

 

[Revven]

This whole project has turned Falco400 into a very angry person.. : (

I'm not angry, I'm just tired of all the whining especially about things that are just untrue.

Ivysaur isn't broken! You can DI ALL of his combos and easily get inside him and combo him to absurd percents. You need to learn the match-up before crying wolf, if you think he's broken, you just suck and don't know the match-up at all. Ivy's combos are practically nonexistant and the Razor Leaves can be gotten around SO EASILY that it's like, why should we tone down the speed? Just because someone can't handle the pressure? Every character has a way around it, it's not like you're stuck to the stage and can't jump or SHAD them.

It's disgusting to see the amount of whining there has been in the last few days about Ivysaur all because of one match where, Basic Sausage, failed to realize he can get around the leaves and didn't have to plank on the edge. Because he didn't know the match-up! He didn't know DDD could SHAD, could jab the leaves, could DAIR the leaves, could do anything to them to get through. It's not even that match that makes slipsy to believe Ivy is broken, it's because of his apparent combos he has when you don't properly DI the moves.

I will say it again, Dthrow > Uair is not a legit combo, all Ivy has are some leaves that lead into the grabs if you don't do anything about it and Nair pressure. Learn the match-up and quit being babies.

Ask Cape about it, he taught Gonzo the match-up and Gonzo kicked Cape's *** afterwards. Ivy is not, in any way, broken even with the overbuffed leaves.

I'm not angry, at all. I just emphasize my words and get irritated by the amount of whining there is in this thread. It'd be nice if people actually bothered to test stuff and evaluate to make sure they are right. Half of it is baseless, the other half is actually people trying to test things and letting us know how they work out. Ivy being broken is that first half, it's baseless and people just don't know the match-up at all.

The constant amount of people who can't handle Ivysaur on these boards annoys me to no end. It's why we have the character boards for, to learn match-ups...! >_<

 

[SketchHurricane]

I kinda take the Falcon approach to Ivy anyway - he was so underused before than any amount of godliness is well deserved

 

[xDD-Master]

Next set change list: (WIP)
Tweaked Falcon's physics
Toned down Zelda's usmash
Fixed spawn points on Luigi's and corneria
Add lag to link/tink zairs
No banana tripping from rolls/walking/crawling
Added ivy to the fall special code
Fixed Fox/sonic nair hitboxes
Ike's side b swipe cool down sped up
ROB air dodge freeze glitch

Also known as Removing Diddy Kong. Dont do it ! EVER ! if at all only rolls, but not walking or crawling.

 

[cAm8ooo]

Yoshi is broken

Spoiler

hehe, runs away.

 

[Yingyay]

know what'd be cool?
If the first hit of Sheik's fsmash had no knockback, so it could combo into the second hit easier. Like Zamus fair.
\

this.....anybody?

 

[Dark Sonic]

Just to throw in another bit on the Peach fair thing, technically a 8 or 9 raw frame advantage will act like a 10 or 11 frame advantage in gameplay, because the invincibility for rolls and spotdodges takes 2 frames to come out. Peach would still have 4-5 frames to get that grab (unless you have a 1-3 frame up B, or an invincible one)

4-5 frames is a ridiculously large window on paper, but taking into account that this is Peach's fair you have to remember a few things. This is only if Peach spaces the fair perfectly so she's already in grab range at the end of it. This is also only if Peach autocancels on the first frame possible after the fair. The immediate grab is no big deal since it can be buffered though.

I think it's a little too much right now, but just the POSSIBILITY of a free grab on block is not neccesarily too much given the circumstances. However, I feel that even in this case the frame advantage is simply too large in practice (since once again, rolls and spotdodges are not instantaneous), and I can see this being done reliably with moderate practice. I'd much prefer to simply give her a +4 or 5 frame advantage like some have suggested, where grabs are not guranteed but are very close, and jabs are still guranteed like before.

 

[TLMSheikant]

NVM...and Ivy isnt good enough to deserve the razor leaf out either so stop whining. And neither does peach's fair.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Why are u adding lag to link's TL's zair?

We're not

Spoiler

10char

 

[Rudra]

this.....anybody?

I can definately agree with that. A move like Sheik's/TLs Fsmash should be able to link into the second hit.

 

[GHNeko]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say nothing needs to be done to Peach's fair. I'm going to go out on another limb and say the fact that you can sometimes get the guaranteed grab is fine. I don't see a problem with these type of things in fighting games.

Don't forget all the other variables at play here. If a Peach player is skilled enough to perfectly space the fair for a guaranteed grab, then that's a reward. Don't forget shield push + improper spacing, don't forget spotdoding and rolling. Hell, don't forget that fair is slow and can be beaten by tons of other fast moves. There are plenty of things that can completely shut down any attempt to get a free grab from fair in this case. Good players study match-ups for this exact reason, and the meta game will teach players not to idly block a float canceling Peach.

There's no need to nerf everything that is suddenly discovered as effective. At some point we're going to have to stop all this nitpicking and let the **** game develop for some amount of time.

I've said it once, and Ill say it again. For a move such as fair, it does not have to right to grant peach a free grab when that move is shieled. You could space it improperly as hell, but due to frame advantage, she can easily back off a fair that's improperly spaced. There is nothing wrong with a move being safe on block if it can be punished some other way.

The way it works now, that fair can be abused as hell. The best way to deal with fair is to either avoid the hitbox entirely or power shield it, and since no one can power shield it 100% of the time, trying to do so is too risky, so you end up having to avoid it because if you block it, you get grabbed, if you spot dodge it, peach follows up due to lack of lag, if you get hit...oh well. Better hope you're DI-ing right. You can't punish her if she flat out misses because of how little lag she has on the move.

The only way I could deal with it was to camp Fairs with Marth. wtf, that pushed matches to 6-7 mins on average because there was no way to approach when you see a fair coming, unless you have a projectile, but even then, its safer to camp.

At least if she cant follow up with a grab, but with a jab, its not let she loses anything, and even then, she's still putting shield pressure on because of how strong the move is, so while shielding the move becomes the best option, its still not an option I can abuse because of how well the move pressures a shield.

Any peach who figured out this frame advantaged would of abused it heavily. Hell, my rival did. And I had to deal with it for 11 hours. And he isnt even good enough to win a tourney. :|

 

[Roxas215]

Yall better leave my peach alone!!! I've become quite accustomed to my shield pressure game with fair to grab. LEAVE HER ALONE!!!



lol. But really like i said if yall do reduce her frame advantage don't do it drastically. She should still be able to rely on that move not only as a kill but a good shield attack move. That is what peach does.

 

[shanus]

I would think shaving off 2-3 advantage frames wouldnt be too detrimental to it. Fast fingers and a mix up would allow for a grab during the shield pressure.



Lower the BKB and boost the KBG seems the most obvious solution.

 

[Sudai]

Neko, if all you can do is camp FAirs, then something's wrong. Peach's FAir has a lot of start-up and the animation is fairly obvious so intercept it with a FAir/NAir. Yes it's near impossible to punish a FAir after it's over, but it's super easy to see coming so punish it before it happens. You play Marth FFS, use your FAir to stop it and BAM combo. FAir is still a high-risk high-reward move, it's just the risk is at the beginning instead of at the end.

With that said, I do think a few frames should be shaven off, but I think she should retain shield advantage on block. I know that's basically what's going to happen already, just want to point out that I'm not in favor of the guaranteed grab, but she should still have good shield pressure. She always has and that's part of her character.

Falco, I didn't really mean you're an angry person, was just making a joke to try to lighten your mood. I've seen all the ******** post. I read every post involving Brawl+. I understand how you feel. Only reason I'm not irritated is because they're not looking at me to fix the supposed "problems" so they don't complain to me when they're not fixed (even though they're not broken..) so I get it, promise. : )

 

[GHNeko]

Neko, if all you can do is camp FAirs, then something's wrong. Peach's FAir has a lot of start-up and the animation is fairly obvious so intercept it with a FAir/NAir. Yes it's near impossible to punish a FAir after it's over, but it's super easy to see coming so punish it before it happens. You play Marth FFS, use your FAir to stop it and BAM combo. FAir is still a high-risk high-reward move, it's just the risk is at the beginning instead of at the end.

That's what I did do. Rofl. I use My Fair to intercept any approach with Fair, but camping fair to make peach approach was a better option than approaching with fair alone, until peach stopped approach with fair, THEN I could mix it up.

 

[Roxas215]

That's what I did do. Rofl. I use My Fair to intercept any approach with Fair, but camping fair to make peach approach was a better option than approaching with fair alone, until peach stopped approach with fair, THEN I could mix it up.

Why is peach even approaching with fair in the 1st place? Glide toss turnip to grab is a way better approach. Sh dair is a way better approach. Peach should not be approaching with fair to begin with. Like it's been stated yes she has the frame advantage when fair is blocked but the start up time is so obvious that you see it coming. There is a risk at the beginning of using fair rather then the end. Constantly approaching with fair will not work against a good player.

 

[Sudai]

The only way I could deal with it was to camp Fairs with Marth. wtf, that pushed matches to 6-7 mins on average because there was no way to approach when you see a fair coming, unless you have a projectile, but even then, its safer to camp.

This is what you said before. Now you say you do intercept it. Okay. "there was no way to approach when you see a fair coming"? You use your FAir to approach and punish the starting lag. Problem solved. "That's what I did do." Then where's the complaint?

Peach's FAir is not a safe move. It's safe on block, yes, but that doesn't make a move completely safe because you can punish the start-up lag. That's like saying Bridget's Dust is safe in GG. It's fairly safe on block, but anyone worth their salt that knows the match-up will punish her Dust simply by seeing the opening frames of it. (Sorry, someone else used a GG reference earlier and I couldn't help myself. XD)

 

[SketchHurricane]

That's what I did do. Rofl. I use My Fair to intercept any approach with Fair, but camping fair to make peach approach was a better option than approaching with fair alone, until peach stopped approach with fair, THEN I could mix it up.

Translation: "I played a fighting game"

Really, I see absolutely nothing wrong with the situation you just explained. Peach was abusing a slow but powerful move, so you forced her to stop, witch opened up the game for YOU. Nothing broken about it, from your own explanation. It seems like you're just commenting on your disapproval of an annoying playstyle that you faced.

All you've proven is that Marth has trouble approaching Peach, and nothing more. And even that is debatable.

 

[GHNeko]

That still doesnt excuse the fact that a move is so safe on block you can follow up with a grab which leads to a damage output nearly 2x as much as what the move itself would of done.

 

[Sudai]

Neko, just like there's certain moves you don't spotdodge, there's certain moves you don't shield. Shanus already said he wants to take 2-3 frames off of the frame advantage which most of us seem to be in favor of. This would make it so there's no guaranteed grab, just a good mix-up into a grab.

I still don't even know what you want them to do with the FAir, just that you don't like it. Could you accept shaving off 2-3 frames of frame advantage or can you think of a better, less altering way to make the move "fair". (No pun intended). Really. If you have a better idea than taking off a small bit of the advantage while keeping the move the same, share it with us.

Even with the reduced frame advantage, it'll still be a bad idea to shield the FAir so obviously your complaints won't be gone..but your complaints are mostly baseless. It just seems like you're too afraid to contest the FAir when you really shouldn't be, especially as a Marth with giant range and disjointedness.

 

[toasty]

removed the textures I had for Luigi; problem solved. Thanks for the help

 

[GHNeko]

Neko, just like there's certain moves you don't spotdodge, there's certain moves you don't shield. Shanus already said he wants to take 2-3 frames off of the frame advantage which most of us seem to be in favor of. This would make it so there's no guaranteed grab, just a good mix-up into a grab.

I still don't even know what you want them to do with the FAir, just that you don't like it. Could you accept shaving off 2-3 frames of frame advantage or can you think of a better, less altering way to make the move "fair". (No pun intended). Really. If you have a better idea than taking off a small bit of the advantage while keeping the move the same, share it with us.

Even with the reduced frame advantage, it'll still be a bad idea to shield the FAir so obviously your complaints won't be gone..but your complaints are mostly baseless. It just seems like you're too afraid to contest the FAir when you really shouldn't be, especially as a Marth with giant range and disjointedness.

Wait what? I'm fine with what shanus wants to do with it. I was talking about how the move shouldnt be able to follow up with a grab, which wont be possible with Shanus' adjustments. <_>

And yes, there are moves you shouldnt spotdodge and there are moves you shouldnt block, but should there be moves that you shouldnt spotdodge or block?

If it came down to it, I can do what I did in order to beat it with Marth, but regardless of that, a move that has those attributes doesn't make sense.

 

[Sudai]

Well there ya go. We can stop talking about it because this thread doesn't need it.

 

[GHNeko]

I only brought it back up cuz of Sketch. D:

 

[Kuga]

I agree about Sheik no KB on first hit of FS,if you guys will fix Moves like TL(already fixed Zamus Fair)There is no reason to not change her FS.Its just anoying when you use the FS and says YES,but the enermy is pushed back.

 

[SlashTalon]

Am I in the right to think that the knockback of Lucas' upB (just the ball and tail) is absurd?
it randomly hits like a full on smash attack at the head and parts of the tail.

I watched it kill a Jiggs at 58% yesterday off the side of FD.

 

[GHNeko]

I agree about Sheik no KB on first hit of FS,if you guys will fix Moves like TL(already fixed Zamus Fair)There is no reason to not change her FS.Its just anoying when you use the FS and says YES,but the enermy is pushed back.

Agreed. Shiek needs a buff to her smash so she has another, slightly unreliable, but way to kill.

Am I in the right to think that the knockback of Lucas' upB (just the ball and tail) is absurd?
it randomly hits like a full on smash attack at the head and parts of the tail.

I watched it kill a Jiggs at 58% yesterday off the side of FD.

iz dat sum DI i semll rite thur????/

 

[Sudai]

Am I in the right to think that the knockback of Lucas' upB (just the ball and tail) is absurd?
it randomly hits like a full on smash attack at the head and parts of the tail.

I watched it kill a Jiggs at 58% yesterday off the side of FD.

Vid please? I want some good lol's at bad DI.

 

[toasty]

Slash who were you playing against? It might have been some accidental European DI [the exact WRONG DI you should be inputting which results in a hilariously quick death]

 

[Blank Mauser]

I guess after thinking about it, with the ability to float cancel the startup time of Peach's fair safely into one of her other moves there is nothing wrong with helping more defensive playstyles against Peach. Though alone I still don't see much of a problem with a slow move getting a free grab on block. But heck, lowering the shieldstun may unintentionally buff Peach's killing power a little with the new knockback growth lol.

And I am glad there are WBR'ers who share my opinion on Ivysaur. He didn't get much/any attention in vBrawl so obviously learning to deal with him will still take some time.

 

[Roxas215]

People are commenting on peach like this one move makes her godlike. Peach still gets killed by a good marth. She still has trouble landing the kill. She still is a sitting duck in the air. Stop acting like peach is so super crazy in this game. You want to punish fair? Freaking utilt her at the start. And are people complaining about the damage output from peach's grab? Have yall seen what kirby can do? Jab to throw= 30% EASY. People are complaining about a move that attack the shield when THAT IS WHAT PEACH DOES.

 

[GHNeko]

Hey. I dropped it. Rofl.

 

[Arkaether]

Agreed. Just drop it, the general consensus is that it should be reduced to below a +6 frame advantage. Seriously, shield pressure =/= unblockable setup.

 

[CountKaiser]

Can't you just roll away from the Peach Player during the fair? Wouldn't that work?

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

is it possible to turn falcon's upper dair hitbox into a meteor smash?