Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[MK26]

You'll get the information when the OP of the thread is actually complete but, here's a premature list of the chars who can CG Falcon some with %s and some without

Sonic Uthrow (50%)
Wario Dthrow (42%)
Pit Dthrow (ongoing beyond 100%, will be looked into fixing when we can)
Luigi Dthrow (ongoing beyond 100%, will be looked into fixing when we can)
Pikachu Dthrow (like everybody else, lasts awhile, will test more later)
Lucario Uthrow (Lucario's stock AND percent based, as well as your own % based, DI dependent so it's very situational and already known)
Mario Uthrow (I'm told 28% is when it ends, but, I will be double checking it today).

You can add
kirby's dthrow (start at 40ish till 80)
sheik fthrow/dthrow (can di up to get out around 40-50)
Im sure there are more...maybe one of Link's throws?

 

[cubaisdeath]

You'll get the information when the OP of the thread is actually complete but, here's a premature list of the chars who can CG Falcon some with %s and some without

Sonic Uthrow (50%)
Wario Dthrow (42%)
Pit Dthrow (ongoing beyond 100%, will be looked into fixing when we can)
Luigi Dthrow (ongoing beyond 100%, will be looked into fixing when we can)
Pikachu Dthrow (like everybody else, lasts awhile, will test more later)
Lucario Uthrow (Lucario's stock AND percent based, as well as your own % based, DI dependent so it's very situational and already known)
Mario Uthrow (I'm told 28% is when it ends, but, I will be double checking it today).

there is no way that sonic and pit can cg for that long with DI

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

there is no way that sonic and pit can cg for that long with DI

you'd be surprised. they have pretty good grab range, and if it isn't that, its that the grab leaves you stunned for so long its easy to DI chase the grab. but don't even worry about it, falcon doesn't really need a buff. i just don't find him fun so i switched characters.

 

[goodoldganon]

*Comforts Falco400*

There there buddy. Our 'job' sucks from time to time but we don't need to take it out on the unsuspecting masses. In a perfect world everyone would read entire topics front to back before posting but they don't so there is nothing we can do.

On that note, if you have reported a problem 1 or 2 times DON'T report it again. We have to go out and gather the stats to see if what you are saying is actually true. For example on the Falcon CGs, Falco400 worked for a few hours the other night, by himself, investigating your claims. Don't assume because we haven't immediately fixed a problem or haven't responsd that we aren't at least noticing it or in the process of working on it. Our 'silence' may be frustrating, but people assuming we are going to respond immediately to every problem is also frustrating for us.

Just remember guys, these are nightly builds so feedback is always great. Submit vids, pictures, or numerical data if you want your problems addressed in the most timely fashion. Thanks for reading and peace out Gs.

 

[Revven]

there is no way that sonic and pit can cg for that long with DI

They can. It's either because of the base on the throws or the launch angle the throws send you which don't allow you much room to DI due to Falcon's gravity settings. The way it works is that Falcon will get CG'd because of his gravity, the hitstun, and the BKB/KBG or launch angle the throw may send you in that determines how much you can DI the throw. The only ways to fix it is to tweak Falcon's gravity or wait for the throw modifier to fix any stupid problems like these.

Go ahead and try them yourself if you don't believe me. I'd loved to be proven wrong.

 

[ToxiCrow]

idk the %'s, but i know these characters can also chaingrab falcon

Peach: Up and down throws. Down throw lasts longer
Ike: Upthrow
Marth: Upthrow

not complaining (because i dont use him), just trying to add to the list is all

 

[Revven]

idk the %'s, but i know these characters can also chaingrab falcon

Peach: Up and down throws. Down throw lasts longer
Ike: Upthrow
Marth: Upthrow

not complaining, just trying to add to the list is all

Nope, you can jump out of those (DI inward for Marth) Ike you can jump out of, Peach's Dthrow Falcon falls too fast to regrab. Peach uthrow doesn't CG at all you can DI away and jump out before she can even regrab.

Trust me, I tested EVERYONE. Those three do not have legit CGs at all.

 

[ToxiCrow]

Trust me, I tested EVERYONE. Those three do not have legit CGs at all.

ok i'm going to have to take your word for it. afterall, you dont know more about this then i do

keep up the good work

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

id prefer to wait for a throw modifier. also, falcon has more momentum during a jump than sonic which doesnt make sense lol.

 

[goodoldganon]

It because of the way Sonic's aerials work. With the low hit lag and large momentum using his F-air he could never make contact with all the hits. This is the highest momentum he can get where is aerials work properly.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

It because of the way Sonic's aerials work. With the low hit lag and large momentum using his F-air he could never make contact with all the hits. This is the highest momentum he can get where is aerials work properly.

ooh ok. did falcon's momentum ever get a reduction in a certain codeset? i remember playing one where his momentum felt different. he was better with it imo. or maybe it was just me..

 

[cubaisdeath]

you'd be surprised. they have pretty good grab range, and if it isn't that, its that the grab leaves you stunned for so long its easy to DI chase the grab.

you can't be serious....pit and sonic both have TERRIBLE grab ranges

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

you can't be serious....pit and sonic both have TERRIBLE grab ranges

read part 2 please.

 

[cubaisdeath]

I did, but that doesn't make up for the fact that they do in fact have terrible grab ranges

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

I did, but that doesn't make up for the fact that they do in fact have terrible grab ranges

i meant one or the other. i can't remember specifics for every character. but i do remember some cg's being less skillful than others..(wario vs mario's for ex)

 

[cubaisdeath]

lol cg's in brawl (either version) overall take less skill than any other form of chaingrabbing in smash. anyways, with half of the characters it almost seems like using a throw to start a combo is more effective and efficient than doing straight cg's

 

[Clever_Sleazoid]

Can someone tell me why Ness's useless PK Flash has not been sped up to 1.25x yet, where it could actually do something?

And it wouldn't be completely pointless, it would actually open up some fun possibilities. You can Dair to weak PK Flash already, but the Flash doesn't stun enough to follow it up with anything. With a faster PK Flash it may be possible to dair at around 50, to weak-mid PK Flash to fair or something.

Not to mention it would actually be viable for edgegaurding.

 

[Shadic]

It because of the way Sonic's aerials work. With the low hit lag and large momentum using his F-air he could never make contact with all the hits. This is the highest momentum he can get where is aerials work properly.

Which we could actually fix now, with the hitbox properties.

 

[CountKaiser]

More hitlag makes it easier to SDI out of his fair. =/

 

[kupo15]

Falcon can be chaingrabbed to decent % by nearly anybody in the cast, which is not a good thing.

Spoiler

Take a wild guess which throws.

Mainly people's down throws. There are so many, we can't just change them all for the sake of Falcon, but we have to do something. Right now, Falcon is not good.

It sounds to me people are finally starting to realize the problems that character specific gravity brings. Falcon according to the change list has the highest dgrav out the entire cast of 1.32 (fox is the same as well) which means his kb is greatly reduced from moves in relation to the rest of the cast. The fact that hitstun is set to accommodate the majority of the cast's "floatier" physics compounds this problem which attributes to the inconsistencies we are experiencing. Falcon falls faster, goes less far, but receives a lot of hitstun.

Customizing physics to each character does more than make them "play and move in their style." As we see, it in fact effects other aspects of the game effects the consistency of the game and causes these side effects such as falcon. And we want to fix the moves that are "broken" when they are not the root problem? If the physics of the characters where a little closer together and the hitstun based on the heaviest physics, then these problems wouldn't happen or be as prevalent.

Off the top of my head, the throws that Falco400's list had that might be changed, I see no reason to change pits dthrow and sonics uthrow. There is really nothing wrong with how how those moves work. The problem is caused by character specific gravity and hitstun based off of floatier physics in the game. Hopefully, this is what changes instead of trying to patch "broken"throws that really are not broken at all.

 

[CountKaiser]

OR we could get character specific hitstun and that would solve everything.

 

[Plum]

OR we could get character specific hitstun and that would solve everything.

I can understand that there is a lack of people available for new codes in Brawl+ right now with PW taking a break from hacking, and Spunit gone (at least last I heard he still had computer problems) and those who are left obviously have busy schedules with life and other coding projects.

That said, can this code become a priority?
For all I know there is already somebody working on the project (I don't need to know who it is because whoever it is doesn't need people bothering them about it) but if somebody is working on it then just say somebody is.

Character specific hitstun would perfect the feel of characters both when playing them and playing against them. I can understand where Kupo is coming from about how character specific values can cause problems (because there are a select few characters who have clear issues with hitstun as it is) But really I wouldn't give up specific values for each character because it gives everybody that feeling of "just right." That said, most characters do feel fine and can be left as is as far as hitstun, but with Falcon on one end of the spectrum and somebody like Luigi on the other there is no doubt that there would be benefit to this.

Obviously Falcon should still be easily combo'd, but getting rid of the Pit and Sonic CG's for instance would make this already useful (assuming throw modifier isn't found first)
Luigi could be given a slight increase in hitstun so he doesn't become ridiculously hard to combo (seriously... Nair o_O) while being such a powerhouse himself. Yeah he should be able to break out combos but not as easily and effortlessly as he does...

I know character specific hitstun has been tossed around a lot, and every time it is brought up I say how good of an idea it would be, and here I am doing it again

 

[GPDP]

I agree. Character-specific hitstun would do the trick.

I know what you're going for, kupo, but honestly, I think what you're proposing (changing gravity at the universal rather than the individual level) would leave a lot to be desired. Maybe the problems you bring up can be resolved this way, sure, but it would still be an imperfect solution. The fact is, almost all the characters were quite floaty in vBrawl. If we increase gravity through a universal code, then what will we get? I can imagine it would homogenize the way many characters feel, and it would deprive us of a key balancing tool.

Yes, the current method has problems (especially considering the backwards approach taken towards dgrav and fgrav, contributing to inconsistently slow jumps and fast falls), but we'll just have to hold out for something that will allow us to have our cake and eat it, too. Too much good has come out of the ability to tweak characters at the individual level for us to completely ditch that approach.

 

[exfatal]

ummm... i find zelda's forward and back kick very easy to sweet point with now.. shouldnt falcon get this buff also.. ?

 

[Yingyay]

ummm... i find zelda's forward and back kick very easy to sweet point with now.. shouldnt falcon get this buff also.. ?

Falcon? Whit his reverse knee? Nah man...nah
Plus its not like they increased the hitboxes, if you find it easier then, youre either picking on poor DDD or you're actually good at timing it.

 

[kupo15]

I agree. Character-specific hitstun would do the trick.

I know what you're going for, kupo, but honestly, I think what you're proposing (changing gravity at the universal rather than the individual level) would leave a lot to be desired. Maybe the problems you bring up can be resolved this way, sure, but it would still be an imperfect solution. The fact is, almost all the characters were quite floaty in vBrawl. If we increase gravity through a universal code, then what will we get? I can imagine it would homogenize the way many characters feel, and it would deprive us of a key balancing tool.

Yes, the current method has problems (especially considering the backwards approach taken towards dgrav and fgrav, contributing to inconsistently slow jumps and fast falls), but we'll just have to hold out for something that will allow us to have our cake and eat it, too. Too much good has come out of the ability to tweak characters at the individual level for us to completely ditch that approach.

If you made dgrav global, characters in relation to one another wouldn't feel any different that vbrawl. Technically, if you had character spec hitstun that would be a solution to the problem. It would just be nice if the characters were at least closer together instead of falcon.fox being 1.32 dgrav and ? being at 1 dgrav. That is a pretty dramatic difference in how characters react when hit despite the hitstun being adjusted.

What you are basically doing is putting characters movement physics over how they function when they are hit. Basically, shifting them around in categories of weights in a way. Falcon/fox act like super fast fallers in relation to the heavies, mid weights and floaters, Dk (I think) is now in the mid weight or maybe light class instead of heavy. Sometimes I wonder if char spec dgrav actually does more harm than good and more imbalance than balance. Just food for thought

 

[exfatal]

oh one other thing not sure if its been mentioned but is lucario suppose to be able to b up twice?

 

[cAm8ooo]

ummm... i find zelda's forward and back kick very easy to sweet point with now.. shouldnt falcon get this buff also.. ?

They didnt get a buff. Thats just your imagination.

oh one other thing not sure if its been mentioned but is lucario suppose to be able to b up twice?

It works like pits "wing renewal" i believe. I dont see it as a problem when they reduce the speed of his up b back to normal which i believe they are goin to do.

 

[exfatal]

oh true. well if it holds any ground i'd like to say. i love what there doing with brawl.. i see people complaining but i can honestly say the fact that people are trying to make brawl a better game is good enough reason to try and help them out by being supportive and what not.

btw. fix IC pllease lol i know ur trying but i cant wait to play improved IC

 

[Yingyay]

oh true. well if it holds any ground i'd like to say. i love what there doing with brawl.. i see people complaining but i can honestly say the fact that people are trying to make brawl a better game is good enough reason to try and help them out by being supportive and what not.

btw. fix IC pllease lol i know ur trying but i cant wait to play improved IC

As much as I hate them >_M they do need work, but I beleive that the WBR is doing their best to fix others issues along with them. So its best that we dont ask things like that. lol

I cant wait for un-desyncable ver. to come out. If possible.

 

[toasty]

okay so I searched Luigi over the last few days and didn't see anything regarding this but:
Whenever I select Luigi, seconds later the game freezes. Even if I don't change color and even if I let the game fully load from the startup of the game before I do anything else. I haven't tested this on my Wii as I'm sure I have something earlier than 4.0 but this is happening on my friend's Wii which is 4.0U if that matters at all.

But yeah it'd be great if...you know...the game didn't freeze just because I chose a certain character >_>

 

[cAm8ooo]

As much as I hate them >_M they do need work, but I beleive that the WBR is doing their best to fix others issues along with them. So its best that we dont ask things like that. lol

I cant wait for un-desyncable ver. to come out. If possible.

I really dont see why they need work. I mean sure they lost their infinite but they still have a great grab and combo game and got plenty of buffs. Not to mention Chu just won a pretty big tournament with them.

And what do you mean a un-desyncable version of them? Isn't that what makes them good and unique?

 

[Plum]

If you made dgrav global, characters in relation to one another wouldn't feel any different that vbrawl. Technically, if you had character spec hitstun that would be a solution to the problem. It would just be nice if the characters were at least closer together instead of falcon.fox being 1.32 dgrav and ? being at 1 dgrav. That is a pretty dramatic difference in how characters react when hit despite the hitstun being adjusted.

What you are basically doing is putting characters movement physics over how they function when they are hit. Basically, shifting them around in categories of weights in a way. Falcon/fox act like super fast fallers in relation to the heavies, mid weights and floaters, Dk (I think) is now in the mid weight or maybe light class instead of heavy. Sometimes I wonder if char spec dgrav actually does more harm than good and more imbalance than balance. Just food for thought

Again, I see where you are coming from with the universal Dgrav; it will keep characters within the respective Dgrav in comparison with others and there won't be some of the side effects of individual Dgrav.

However for the Plussery even if your way was better (not saying that it is or not) I feel that its gone on for too long to change. At this point going to a universal Dgrav would be an adjustment that you are asking players to now work with. A change on a much larger scale then the tweaks here and there that the nightly builds experiment with, that isn't really something you can just tell players to get used to. It's one of the reasons that switching between the Plussery and your set and vise versa is so foreign. The grav settings just don't feel right when I am so used to the Plussery.

So even if a universal Dgrav setting solves some problems, you can't just switch so far into the project. The only solution at this point is going to be the character specific hitstun, and I for one would be happy with that as well as the unique grav settings that make characters feel more right in my opinion.

 

[XSilvenX]

I really dont see why they need work. I mean sure they lost their infinite but they still have a great grab and combo game and got plenty of buffs. Not to mention Chu just won a pretty big tournament with them.

And what do you mean a un-desyncable version of them? Isn't that what makes them good and unique?

I think he was referring to the issue with them having different physics. From what I remember there's an issue with them randomly desyncing because Nana acts really funny with the new physics changes. Not sure if this is how it is but I could have sworn I read something similar to that....


Also did you guys look at Falco's uptilt? *_* There's pretty much no endlag for the move now, as soon as it's done you can just throw another one out. I just looked at it and I saw that you guys gave it 2x after frame 14... *_* Hmmm 2x? Maybe 1.5 would be better? 2x for anything should be used very sparingly..I notice you guys are doing that a lot and it's making things very "strange" to say the least. Same with Zelda, but I mentioned that already. I hope you guys take a look at some of the things you gave 2x to and come up with a better number because imo it's pretty arbitrary and causes a lot of shield pressure issues. Especially in Falco's case with the true "widnmill of fury" (Melee players should get that reference..).

Last thing...is Lucario supposed to be able to do upb with the 5/13 set? I've been consistently doing it twice with no help whatsoever and I'm not sure if this is a bug or done on purpose.

edit- from what I read it seems like a lot of this "coding" team is very busy and I would like to contribute with some of the numbers here. I'm sure changing the values like the multipliers in this case wouldn't be too hard. I'm not looking for a Nobel peace prize or anything, just trying to come up with better numbers because 2x for Falco uptilt is definitely way too much. Same goes for a lot of the other 2x's. CTRL+F "2x" in the changelist.txt and you'll see what I mean.

 

[shanus]

Lucario can only do 2 upB's if you start from the ground

 

[kupo15]

Again, I see where you are coming from with the universal Dgrav; it will keep characters within the respective Dgrav in comparison with others and there won't be some of the side effects of individual Dgrav.

However for the Plussery even if your way was better (not saying that it is or not) I feel that its gone on for too long to change. At this point going to a universal Dgrav would be an adjustment that you are asking players to now work with. A change on a much larger scale then the tweaks here and there that the nightly builds experiment with, that isn't really something you can just tell players to get used to. It's one of the reasons that switching between the Plussery and your set and vise versa is so foreign. The grav settings just don't feel right when I am so used to the Plussery.

So even if a universal Dgrav setting solves some problems, you can't just switch so far into the project. The only solution at this point is going to be the character specific hitstun, and I for one would be happy with that as well as the unique grav settings that make characters feel more right in my opinion.

Well, this project is rooted in change. As much as I would like too, I never suggested to go as high I as my set and I even offered that we still keep char spec dgrav if that is what people want, but just maybe keep the same weight groups in the same dgrav and have a little less gap inbetween the heaviest and lightest weight groups. Some (10 in fact) haven't even changed from vbrawl at all with their gravities. Even say 1.1 dgrav isn't that drastic.

 

[onionchowder]

I DL'd B+ recently, and I gotta say so far I love it.

I typed up practically an essay on comments I had, but then I accidentally deleted it, so here's a short summary.

1) consider giving the multiple tethers (already on Ivy) to Olimar? they have very similar recoveries
2) wtf why does Ganon have the down-B -> DJ glitch from Melee? It seems like it's purely there for nostalgia purposes, make his aerial movement or up-B better if you want him to recover better
3) The decreased electric hitstun, although it makes "competitive" sense, detracts from the epic-ness of landing that knee or thunder-stomp. Just a comment.
4) Is it possible to get rid of the cars on Port Town? That might make it a more viable CP stage
5) For frozen Spear Pillar, IMO it'd be a "more-neutral" stage if it was frozen with the middle blown up (less bouncing-around in the tunnel)

I've only had Brawl+ for a week, but so far it's been excellent. Keep up the good work!

 

[GHNeko]

I DL'd B+ recently, and I gotta say so far I love it.

I typed up practically an essay on comments I had, but then I accidentally deleted it, so here's a short summary.

1) consider giving the multiple tethers (already on Ivy) to Olimar? they have very similar recoveries
2) wtf why does Ganon have the down-B -> DJ glitch from Melee? It seems like it's purely there for nostalgia purposes, make his aerial movement or up-B better if you want him to recover better
3) The decreased electric hitstun, although it makes "competitive" sense, detracts from the epic-ness of landing that knee or thunder-stomp. Just a comment.
4) Is it possible to get rid of the cars on Port Town? That might make it a more viable CP stage
5) For frozen Spear Pillar, IMO it'd be a "more-neutral" stage if it was frozen with the middle blown up (less bouncing-around in the tunnel)

I've only had Brawl+ for a week, but so far it's been excellent. Keep up the good work!

1. Answered that on AiB
2. Answered on AiB.
3. Answered on AiB
4. We're just gonna reduce the KB on the cars so they kill much later. The concept is fine though.
5.

This is my own personal idea for Spear Pillar.

 

[Deleted member]

I think he was referring to the issue with them having different physics. From what I remember there's an issue with them randomly desyncing because Nana acts really funny with the new physics changes. Not sure if this is how it is but I could have sworn I read something similar to that....


Also did you guys look at Falco's uptilt? *_* There's pretty much no endlag for the move now, as soon as it's done you can just throw another one out. I just looked at it and I saw that you guys gave it 2x after frame 14... *_* Hmmm 2x? Maybe 1.5 would be better? 2x for anything should be used very sparingly..I notice you guys are doing that a lot and it's making things very "strange" to say the least. Same with Zelda, but I mentioned that already. I hope you guys take a look at some of the things you gave 2x to and come up with a better number because imo it's pretty arbitrary and causes a lot of shield pressure issues. Especially in Falco's case with the true "widnmill of fury" (Melee players should get that reference..).

Last thing...is Lucario supposed to be able to do upb with the 5/13 set? I've been consistently doing it twice with no help whatsoever and I'm not sure if this is a bug or done on purpose.

edit- from what I read it seems like a lot of this "coding" team is very busy and I would like to contribute with some of the numbers here. I'm sure changing the values like the multipliers in this case wouldn't be too hard. I'm not looking for a Nobel peace prize or anything, just trying to come up with better numbers because 2x for Falco uptilt is definitely way too much. Same goes for a lot of the other 2x's. CTRL+F "2x" in the changelist.txt and you'll see what I mean.

coding as in actual code making, not changning values. I and almas are currently the only ones, almas is very busy with his engine code, and I have final exams and already have like 8 codes planned

 

[HeroPenguin]

1. Answered that on AiB
2. Answered on AiB.
3. Answered on AiB
4. We're just gonna reduce the KB on the cars so they kill much later. The concept is fine though.
5.

This is my own personal idea for Spear Pillar.

Some of us don't know what AiB is. Any possibility of a summary or a link?

@5: I'm not sure I understand... why does the right side deserve special treatment? Does it have to do with the lip on the bottom level, or something?