Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[Mattnumbers]

I actually think they SHOULD nerf Sheiks Upsmash.

 

[Rion]

Oh Lord. The train keeps going... and going... and going...

It's like, flying off the cliff now, bursting into flames.

 

[Yingyay]

I actually think they SHOULD nerf Sheiks Upsmash.

See? If she's supposed to be a combo/gimp character this is the kinda suggestion you make.

 

[Strong Badam]

You're playing two different games and hack of the second game man. Melee is melee, vBrawl is vBrawl, and Brawl+ is b+.

vbrawl is ****, why would i play that.

That is why we need to add more AT's to this game, but not ones like L-canceling that are so mindless.

I like L-Canceling. The fact that l-canceling promotes the fact that a more skilled player should have a better chance at winning in and of itself makes it a good AT for a smash game.

 

[Yingyay]

vbrawl is ****, why would i play that.

I like L-Canceling. The fact that l-canceling promotes the fact that a more skilled player should have a better chance at winning in and of itself makes it a good AT for a smash game.

1) Play vBrawl when you're tired of captain falcon beign epic again. Or if you're tired or not getting chain-grabdeathover1000x9

2)I'd like these features too if we started out using them. Its kinda late in the game to change how brawl+ is.

 

[Rion]

But doesn't Sheik's USmash require you to hit the sweetspot for it to be a good kill move?

If you get hit from the side, it seems much less effective, not to mention way more DI-able...

That's what I remember at least.

 

[Yingyay]

But doesn't Sheik's USmash require you to hit the sweetspot for it to be a good kill move?

If you get hit from the side, it seems much less effective, not to mention way more DI-able...

That's what I remember at least.

I think Matt was joking lol and so was I.

edit: for some reason, it feels like an extremely long post is coming.

 

[GHNeko]

So when you get hit by her usmash, where's the gimping in that? Its a finisher right? Why not nerf that? She's supposed to be a gimping and combo wracking character?

So yeah, making her fsmash connect isnt taking away anything or adding much really.

So is the ratio in your favor? If so then you should know that her fsmash isnt really a deciding factor.

Okay? Everyone has a kill move. Mario is a combo and gimping character too, but Fsmash is a KO move and so is dsmash (argueablly)

:V

And I dont care if her fsmash is a deciding factor or not. I just dont want to see auto-linking multi-hit moves because they'd be better of being turned a single hit move as they're practically the same god **** thing.

 

[Strong Badam]

I think true l-canceling could at least be an option. I'd enjoy it

 

[Rion]

Whew, I believe things are calming down a bit.

Here's to hoping despite the many conflicting ideals we have that we'll all find some sort of agree-able medium.

Or at least, eventually agree to another person's ideals. We'll see what happens when the new Nightly comes out I suppose?

I suppose when the people were making these attacks, they just wanted something artistically different perhaps. Multi hit and single hit have the same purpose.

I mean, if there really is no difference between them... shouldn't we just leave it as is? Does having one hit after another actually linking with each other really that frustrating to watch if it's from the same attack?

 

[Yingyay]

Okay? Everyone has a kill move. Mario is a combo and gimping character too, but Fsmash is a KO move and so is dsmash (argueablly)

:V

And I dont care if her fsmash is a deciding factor or not. I just dont want to see auto-linking multi-hit moves because they'd be better of being turned a single hit move as they're practically the same god **** thing.

Ugh.......im done. I think sheik has one of he only auto-linking, mult-hit smashes in the game. I could be wrong, but I dont care enough to check. But hey, if you want to "EZ "out of a" EZ mode" instead of not getting hit in the first place then go right ahead. I really dont see a difference either way. If sheik's fsmash doesnt auto-link anymore then there better be a good "T word"for it. Like, every single character in this game that has a multi-hit smash should have their SDI thing checked out too. Cuz I just remembered that Diddy has one to. And imo he's way more of a combo, gimping character than Sheik. He even has item traps and what not, but if you want to mess with her fsmash go rite ahead. I'll just use Diddy's fmash till yall change that too. Heck, lets change Bowser's fsmash too, because that has multiple hits as well and it basically screams auto-link. Maybe Toon Link's fsmash needs to be looked at too, he can even decide when he wants the second hit to come out. But no I digress, lets mess with sheik.

I suppose when the people were making these attacks, they just wanted something artistically different perhaps. Multi hit and single hit have the same purpose.

I mean, if there really is no difference between them... shouldn't we just leave it as is? Does having one hit after another actually linking with each other really that frustrating to watch if it's from the same attack?

Yes....yes it is hard to watch. If I get hit by an attack and it has more than one hit? You better believe Im mashing that joystick/C-stick. And when I get out, just to get caught again....better believe Imma do it again.

 

[GHNeko]

Stop playing a victim. We're going over multi-hit moves again.

 

[Yingyay]

Stop playing a victim. We're going over multi-hit moves again.

Why tho? Why not just leave them the way they are and appoint damage and knockback accordingly? This re-checking mult-hit moves thing is just spending more time on something that really isnt a big deal.

And im not playing the victim, I was being sarcastic about everyody;s mult-hit moves. They should link properly when they connect.

 

[colored blind]

I like L-Canceling. The fact that l-canceling promotes the fact that a more skilled player should have a better chance at winning in and of itself makes it a good AT for a smash game.

So...You want to change the basic mechanics of Brawl+ to make it harder for no conceivable reason other than your own satisfaction, as opposed to deepening the gameplay?

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Wow this discussion still going on?

Let's put it this way. If the Brawl+ community was the entire Smash Community, the Brawl+ community as we know it would be Ness+ mains .

Seriously, we don't want to look like Ness+ mains in anyone's eyes. Let's just all take a deep breath and calm down.

 

[GHNeko]

I'm sorry I oppose auto-linking mutli hit moves that say "no u" to SDI.

 

[Yingyay]

Wow this discussion still going on?

Let's put it this way. If the Brawl+ community was the entire Smash Community, the Brawl+ community as we know it would be Ness+ mains .

Seriously, we don't want to look like Ness+ mains in anyone's eyes. Let's just all take a deep breath and calm down.

Im calm, this is how I debate......by sounding angry while reading "History's Strongest Disciple Kenichi" lol

I'm sorry I oppose auto-linking mutli hit moves that say "no u" to SDI.

Well here's how I see it. If the mult-hit move doesnt build damage like say......fox and wario's dair, Snakes nair, Ness's fair, sonic's fair, Zelda's nair, etc Then why not auto-link? That's saying if they dont build extreme amounts of damage mind you.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

I'm sorry I oppose auto-linking mutli hit moves that say "no u" to SDI.

No you're not doing it right Neko. It's "no YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU"

SDI tell 'um.

Im calm, this is how I debate......by sounding angry while reading "History's Strongest Disciple Kenichi" lol

This doesn't sound like debating anything:

Ugh.......im done. I think sheik has one of he only auto-linking, mult-hit smashes in the game. I could be wrong, but I dont care enough to check. But hey, if you want to "EZ "out of a" EZ mode" instead of not getting hit in the first place then go right ahead. I really dont see a difference either way. If sheik's fsmash doesnt auto-link anymore then there better be a good "T word"for it. Like, every single character in this game that has a multi-hit smash should have their SDI thing checked out too. Cuz I just remembered that Diddy has one to. And imo he's way more of a combo, gimping character than Sheik. He even has item traps and what not, but if you want to mess with her fsmash go rite ahead. I'll just use Diddy's fmash till yall change that too. Heck, lets change Bowser's fsmash too, because that has multiple hits as well and it basically screams auto-link. Maybe Toon Link's fsmash needs to be looked at too, he can even decide when he wants the second hit to come out. But no I digress, lets mess with sheik.

This sounds like Ness+ing. But I mean, whatever floats your boat.

I think all points for both sides have been made very clear, and the longer this needlessly goes on, the more it's going to degrade into these types of arguments, which does no good to either side, or for debating in general.

 

[iLink]

I'm sorry I oppose auto-linking mutli hit moves that say "no u" to SDI.

And SDI basically says "no u" to multi hit moves.

Not really arguing either way, just wanted to say that

 

[colored blind]

Guh. Whoever said that a properly spaced multi-hit move (Sheik Fsmash thigh) should be pretty much guaranteed, but a poorly spaced one (Sheik Fsmash foot) should be easily DI'd out of had the right idea. Everyone else is running in circles.

Always being able to get out of a multi-hit move with SDI is lame, and makes the move quite useless at higher levels of play. But auto-linking is also silly. It was obviously designed not to be the same as a one-hit move, just in two parts. The multi-hit user should be rewarded for proper spacing, and punished for poor spacing. Simple.

 

[GHNeko]

Which is why I want them so neither can say anything to either.

 

[Yingyay]

Seems that theres an agreement then.
Properly Spaced = no way out!
bleh spacing = lemme out!

In Sheik's case,
Proper Spacing = from toe to calve
bleh spacing = anywhere above the parts mentioned above.

 

[GHNeko]

You're over-exaggerating now. .__.

 

[Yingyay]

You're over-exaggerating now. .__.

O_o how so?

 

[Rion]

I don't really understand either what he means by over-exaggerating.

Heck, I don't even know why Sheik's Fsmash is STILL being debated about...

 

[RyokoYaksa]

I don't even know why people used the term "design flaw" to argue about this so far into the project. Really? Sheik's Fsmash still isn't even a good example of an annoyingly good multi-hit move because it's really far from it. Slight KB reduction sure, but removing the linking from it just makes it punishable in one too many ways.

 

[GHNeko]

Nothing wrong with making it link well, but not automatically all the time.

 

[timothyung]

The problem is that we don't know if Sakurai intended to make multihit moves escapable, or he just screwed it up.
But a good guess is that he wants them to be hard to SDI out of, cause the SDI potency are reduced for multihit moves.
But it is not necessary for us to do what Sakurai intended to do.
Multihit moves should be more rewarding if you hit with the earlier part of it...it does more damage. But it also gives them more time to SDI, and DI. So if you want to kill you should use the later part. You know...that's stupid.
A solution is to make every hit having the same KB as the last hit, but still links together (Attacks with frequent hits only...). If they managed to SDI out, they are rewarded because they get much less damage. But still they got hit, they should be launched away.
For attacks like Sheik's fsmash which has a large gap between hits, they should link together very well. There is not reason to hit with the first hit if it is escapable. Though I think it's acceptable that it doesn't link together you space it very poorly...sourspot, you know. But still the sweetspot should be larger than the sourspot

 

[JCaesar]

Someone suggested this earlier: How about making multihit moves have more SDI potential at the beginning and less at the end? That way, you can only escape on prediction, not reaction. That seems like a fair compromise.

And for the record, I only think Sheik's fsmash should be slightly nerfed in KB, that's all. Yes, it's punishable, but what smash isn't? With her great crawl-dashing game, it's really not that hard to bait an attack and punish with it. It's a too-reliable KO move that seems out of character for her.

 

[Mattnumbers]

The way I see it Multihit moves should be unescapable if spaced perfectly.

 

[Yingyay]

Seriously tho. Can we all agree that if the move is spaced incorrectly then it should be SDI-able and if the move is spaced properly then if should fully connect?

 

[JCaesar]

The only issue I have with that is that it will probably be harder to make work right in game, and it's also more subjective as to what is "correct" spacing.

Higher initial SDI potential on multihit moves is simple to execute and makes sense (to me at least).

Also, I think some of you are exaggerating the "disadvantages" of multihit smashes vs single hit smashes. I dunno about you but I'd take Zelda's current usmash over virtually any other usmash in the game. No other usmash I can think of punishes spotdodges or airdodges so well, or shieldpokes so well, or is such a good anti-air move. It's not really any more punishable than any other usmash. It's really only worse than single hit usmashes when it trades, which isn't very often since it outright beats most aerials with it's disjointed TP, and when it does, it sucks you in for the whole thing.

 

[Alphatron]

That is why we need to add more AT's to this game, but not ones like L-canceling that are so mindless.

This pretty much. L-cancelling is something that could never go wrong. Not to mention, I actually taught my 7 year old brother how to do it everytime when we actually play smash 64. I just told him "puch L as you land". And he can't even recover when playing as Kirby. I'd argue that a simple button press everytime as you hit the ground didn't require much tech skill. Especially when nothing could ever go wrong by doing it.

Adding more ATs to the game is fine by me. Additionally, I'd also like to see damage reduction only for stale moves. Is that possible now with SA?

About Sheik's fmash...can't you just add a hitbox that has a different knockback angle on the first hit? That way, if you don't space it correctly, you don't get your desired result. But if you do, the move still connects in the way it normally should. You could place the hitbox on an area of Sheik's leg.

Even so, so long as they aren't escaped with little effort, multi hit moves are fine. The only one I can think of that fails is Sing, where the 2nd and 3rd hitboxes don't seem to affect your opponent at all while they're waking up. If multi hit moves aren't like vbrawl Zelda's usmash then all is well.

 

[Yingyay]

The only issue I have with that is that it will probably be harder to make work right in game, and it's also more subjective as to what is "correct" spacing.

Higher initial SDI potential on multihit moves is simple to execute and makes sense (to me at least).

Also, I think some of you are exaggerating the "disadvantages" of multihit smashes vs single hit smashes. I dunno about you but I'd take Zelda's current usmash over virtually any other usmash in the game. No other usmash I can think of punishes spotdodges or airdodges so well, or shieldpokes so well, or is such a good anti-air move. It's not really any more punishable than any other usmash. It's really only worse than single hit usmashes when it trades, which isn't very often since it outright beats most aerials with it's disjointed TP, and when it does, it sucks you in for the whole thing.

But Zelda's approach game is pretty bad. It's not like she can DACUS and it'll work. She's a good defensive character and as such has good anti-combat moves.

On the mater of sheik's fsmash, why not just use the same spacing as her ftilt? If you spaced her ftilt properly then you can followup with another one. And I believe the way to properly space it is from thee tip of her feet to her calve.

 

[JCaesar]

But Zelda's approach game is pretty bad. It's not like she can DACUS and it'll work. She's a good defensive character and as such has good anti-combat moves.

That's not what I'm talking about. I just mean that the properties of the move are great. I'd trade Sheik's, Squirtle's or ROB's (all my mains) usmashes for Zelda's in a heartbeat.

On the mater of sheik's fsmash, why not just use the same spacing as her ftilt? If you spaced her ftilt properly then you can followup with another one. And I believe the way to properly space it is from thee tip of her feet to her calve.

That's still subjective. And all of ftilt's hitboxes have uses. Correct spacing in one situation may be different than correct spacing in another situation depending on what you want to follow up with.

Some people may think hitting with the calf is correct spacing, and some might think hitting with the thigh is correct spacing. Some might even say it's the toe. Do you see where I'm going?

 

[Dark Sonic]

For a two hit move like f-smash, making SDI more potent at the begining is not doing much. Of course "correct spacing" is subjective, but what else can we really do?

However, I'd love for that to be done on Pit's uair (and Sonic's upsmash needs a fix regardless, since it knocks them out pretty much randomly).

 

[Yingyay]

That's not what I'm talking about. I just mean that the properties of the move are great. I'd trade Sheik's, Squirtle's or ROB's (all my mains) usmashes for Zelda's in a heartbeat.


That's still subjective. And all of ftilt's hitboxes have uses. Correct spacing in one situation may be different than correct spacing in another situation depending on what you want to follow up with.

Some people may think hitting with the calf is correct spacing, and some might think hitting with the thigh is correct spacing. Some might even say it's the toe. Do you see where I'm going?

1) Oh well heck yeah. Speed plus zelda's usmash = God territory

2)If no one knows or wants to make correct spacing then just leave the smash attack alone then. Saves all the headache. Nerf the knockback and we're all happy. Sheik wont have a way to kill you without setups until about 140% +. I dont see the problem with just that.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Some attacks are easier to see what the proper spacing would be than others.

For example, Zelda's Side smash would be properly spaced if they were right in the middle of the attack.

 

[thesage]

Could we turn Sheik's f-smash into a combo move instead of a ko move? Wouldn't it suit her character better?

 

[weinzey]

imo it should be like jiggs fthrow, meaning sending them offstage pretty early, but killing rather late. could set up for gimps and would suit sheik well.