Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[Yingyay]

I hope we get to test things out soon. Plus....where are all the sheik mains?

 

[SymphonicSage12]

I'm a sheik main...although I'm not that good...and I have like 8 "mains" XD

 

[colored blind]

*Shrug* I'm a Sheik main, though I may or may not get the chance to test these changes soon.

 

[shanus]

Someone needs to release a test build. Like, as soon as possible.

Someone needs to stop requesting this every other post and be patient :-P

We spend a lot of time doing this, hopefully in a few days.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Okay. Sorry


and I didn't mean to sound that pushy, either.

 

[twiblets]

when is another pal nightly gonna be released?
can't wait to see the ness changes from 7-21

 

[Alphatron]

In a few days, huh? Looks like I'll be skipping the next nightly.

 

[shanus]

In a few days, huh? Looks like I'll be skipping the next nightly.

huh? what does this mean lol

 

[Alphatron]

huh? what does this mean lol

I rarely get to use the computer. Even now, I'm posting from a psp.

 

[GHNeko]

EDIT: Found the picture. Check my next post. :3

 

[Yingyay]

I rarely get to use the computer. Even now, I'm posting from a psp.

XD I POST ON MY PSP TOO YO!! I only quote when I get on a comp

 

[GHNeko]

SUCCESS. FOUND IT *****ES.

 

[PKNintendo]

Can someone explain it to me?

Doctor robotnick and a Ness bomb.

 

[Yingyay]

I dont know but ness's face is scaring me.

 

[Finns7]

Look Im sorry ive been away and **** (work johns), My stance is that I want sheik to be a viable char, hell I use sheik sometimes, I wouldnt mind if her fsmash was made to work better but I do not want to take out the DI factor of it. It should have to do with how well the sheik player distances themselves and how good the defender reacts.

 

[GHNeko]

Can someone explain it to me?

Doctor robotnick and a Ness bomb.

Google "Double Nagger" with A == I


Also, with Multi-Hit moves, we should aim for a mid-point based on how they work naturally.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Look Im sorry ive been away and **** (work johns), My stance is that I want sheik to be a viable char, hell I use sheik sometimes, I wouldnt mind if her fsmash was made to work better but I do not want to take out the DI factor of it. It should have to do with how well the sheik player distances themselves and how good the defender reacts.

You were never actually DI'ing to escape the Fsmash to begin with. It just threw you out, much like Zelda's Usmash.

 

[Alphatron]

XD I POST ON MY PSP TOO YO!! I only quote when I get on a comp

I only quote when I can stay within the text limit. lol 256 lines? On a psp, that would be golden.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Matt, the escapes on Usmash were random and Fsmash was ridiculously bad.

I didn't say they should have been left alone, I just think that they should actually have to be spaced correctly to get all the hits.

 

[CountKaiser]

Hey guys.

Increase the SDI multiplier to 1 instead of 0.5

Problem solved. :V

 

[Strong Badam]

new idea: let them do their ****

 

[PKNintendo]

Dude, the count is pretty much IN the WBR...

 

[Plum]

Honestly, I saw this whole argument when I woke up today but had friends over the night before and I had to make breakfast for everybody (and get back to playing Donkey Kong 64 multiplayer, which was the ****) so I couldn't really say anything.

My first thoughts were exactly what Kaiser is saying. Raising how potent SDI is on the move with PSA would still allow it to connect perfectly fine with no action taken on the opponent, and assuming a reasonable enough value is used it would connect when properly spaced even if the opponent tries to get out. It would just make it possible to get out of a poorly spaced Fsmash, and most likely punish in the end lag.

I'm sure the same could be applied to a lot of the "EZ mode" complaints about multihitting moves. It's one thing to make them actually function, but if it gets to the point where even DI/SDI (more so SDI obviously) doesn't get you out of multihit moves then there is a problem. Raising how effective SDI is on the move = problem solved (at least in theory :V )

 

[Yingyay]

Man we just need a test set and some actual legt sheik players to play this thing and figure it out. Im just mad that things are getting looked over now because is doest feel right. A bunch of things in the past didnt feel right but they were ignored because the mains thought it was okay. I say lower the knockback and everything is fine. It's a two hit move not pika's dsmash meaning there are a bunch more hits to DI or SDI out of.

 

[PKNintendo]

Honestly, I saw this whole argument when I woke up today but had friends over the night before and I had to make breakfast for everybody (and get back to playing Donkey Kong 64 multiplayer, which was the ****) so I couldn't really say anything.

My first thoughts were exactly what Kaiser is saying. Raising how potent SDI is on the move with PSA would still allow it to connect perfectly fine with no action taken on the opponent, and assuming a reasonable enough value is used it would connect when properly spaced even if the opponent tries to get out. It would just make it possible to get out of a poorly spaced Fsmash, and most likely punish in the end lag.

I'm sure the same could be applied to a lot of the "EZ mode" complaints about multihitting moves. It's one thing to make them actually function, but if it gets to the point where even DI/SDI (more so SDI obviously) doesn't get you out of multihit moves then there is a problem. Raising how effective SDI is on the move = problem solved (at least in theory :V )

Dude DK 64 Is the *****. Lucky man.

 

[Rion]

Whoa! So many posts since yesterday...

Multi Hit KO moves should be reliable like single hit ones. At least the ones on the ground.

Things like, Snake's Nair won't connect really unless you either are really high in the air and he does the whole thing before you both land, or he fast falls onto you right when the last sending hit box begins.

There's also the fact of how aerial multi hit KO moves are well, mobile. Unlike multi hit KO moves on the ground, ones in the air already have the advantage of movement while performing. You could be retreating or advancing or even maybe just staying on the spot. In this way, aerial multi hit KO moves have an advantage for certain.

But because of the way aerial combat works, obviously I wouldn't expect these moves to 100% connect all the time upon hitting. There are just too many factors to expect that I would think.

This mentality however SHOULD NOT APPLY to grounded multi hit KO moves. Grounded multi hit KO moves should never really be escape-able in the first place.

Honestly, from what I saw what GHNeko was saying... yes, multi hit KO moves (at least, those on the ground) might as well be single hit ones. The multi-hitness quality of those moves honestly offers no upsides at all. All it does really is cause immense amount of headache normally and when they seem to connect properly for once it's like... people get so pissed off.

It's actually quite irritating to hear people complain that you can't escape out of a move that shouldn't be meant to be escape-able in the first place.

I remember a long, long time ago, Ryoko once wished that Zelda's Fsmash was just a single hitting move to avoid the whole stupid escape-ness factor completely (if I am wrong, I apologize! That's what I remembered). But trying to change that to other smashes etc might be a little too much.

It's like anything with the label "multi hit" on a KO move has to automatically be taboo. JUST BECAUSE DAMAGE RACKING MULTI HITS ARE ESCAPABLE, DOESN'T MAKE IT OK TO ESCAPE KO ONES. This difference should be made understood. Escaping a damage racking multi hit is no where near as devastating as having something as important as a multi hit KO move escaped.

You know what else there is about multi hits?

For the dang thing to kill at it's "supposed" percentage, all prior hits must connect first for the right kill percent. Which means, if you missed any prior hits beforehand, it'll end up being weaker than usual.

Sheik's Fsmash on Jigglypuff kills her from the center of Final Destination at about 96%. If you miss the first hit of the move and only connect with the second part, Jigglypuff dies at about 108% instead (A +12~% extra damage needed to KO).

Out of 15 character Fsmashes I tried on Jiggy, worst to best:

1. Marth (Untippered) - 112%
2. Sheik (2nd Hit Only) - 108%
3. Fox - 104%
4. Diddy - 102%
4. Pikachu (Slightly Far) - 102%

6. Sheik (Both Hits) -96%
7. Sonic - 95%
8. Toon Link (Last Hit) - 94%
9. Link (First Hit) - 92%
9. ZSS - 92%

9. Samus - 92%
11. Pikachu (Close Range) - 90%
12. Zelda - 89%
12. Wario - 89%
14. Mario (Sweetspot) - 87%
15. Toon Link (Both Hits) - 80% << Gets a big jump here, sorry.

16. Gannondorf - 68%
17. DK - 63%
18. Marth (Tipper) - 60%

These are without DI.

Is Sheik's current Fsmash really that big a problem?

Really...?

I apologize for this long post. :x I'm sorry!

 

[Strong Badam]

if people are complaining about ez mode and the wbr actually intend to do something about it, then maybe there should be some technically difficult AT's in the game <_<

 

[GHNeko]

lolwut

Prove to me that multi-hit moves are not supposed to be escapable and/or be just as reliable as single hit moves. Because I might of missed it in the instruction manual or on the Smash Bros Dojo. <_>

The move is E-Z mode towards Shiek. We dont want E-Z mode towards shiek nor do we want it towards the person getting hit, thusly, it must be altered to not be E-Z mod towards anyone.

There is more going towards Multi-Hit moves should be escapable simply because DI exists and the move's flaw is that it inherently gives you multiple chances for you to escape or at least move away from the sweetspot.

What you're saying about Multi-hit moves being unescapable means that yes, we should make them single hitters, and Ill be ****ed if you can convince WBR to do such a thing, let alone majority of the plussers.

Hell, I dont even think you can come up with legit reasons as to why Multi-hit moves should be made unescapable at all times as opposed to making them hard to DI out of up with proper spacing. <_>

Which you know, defeats the whole "e-z" mode idea we're suddenly having issues with.

if people are complaining about ez mode and the wbr actually intend to do something about it, then maybe there should be some technically difficult AT's in the game <_<

Fox's JC Shine in BR testing, the possible replacing of Falco SHDL for DI/FF-able SHL, Relooking at multi-hit moves, and a secret new AT all say hi.

protip:

Spoiler

It's not Wavedashing, Wave-Anything, or L-Canceling

As I've said pletny of times before. As long as their is progress, we will get there.

 

[Yingyay]

Prove to me that multi-hit moves are not supposed to be escapable. Because I might of missed it in the instruction manual. <_>

Shiek's fsmash as it is now is a reliable KO move that is neigh unescapable.

1. Reliable KO move is not a trait that Shiek should have.
2. The move is E-Z mod towards Shiek. We dont want E-Z mode towards shiek nor do we want it towards the person getting hit, thusly, it must be altered to not be E-Z mod towards anyone.

There is more going towards Multi-Hit moves should be escapable simply because DI exists and the move's flaw is that it inherently gives you multiple chances for you to escape or at least move away from the sweetspot.

What you're saying about Multi-hit moves being unescapable means that yes, we should make them single hitters, and Ill be ****ed if you can convince WBR to do such a thing, let alone majority of the plussers.

Hell, I dont even think you can come up with legit reasons as to why Multi-hit moves should be made unescapable at all times as opposed to making them hard to DI out of up with proper spacing. <_>

Whats this E-Z mode thing ya'll keep talking about? I mean isnt it E-Z mode to mash a direction on the analog stick and escape a attack that you got yourself hit by? Now why should mult-hit SMASHES be escapable? Just cuz you were off your game and got hit? Sheik's fsmash is so telegraphed too so what you're saying to me is "Why do they get a break just because they caught me?"

if people are complaining about ez mode and the wbr actually intend to do something about it, then maybe there should be some technically difficult AT's in the game <_<

That wouldnt change the fact that people are still gonna get hit by mult-hit moves.

If Sheik's fsmash is really bugging people then a knockback nerf if anything at all. Let it connect. Play enough sheik players pr play her for 20 minutes against capable players and you'll find out that the fsmash isnt a big deal.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

What's hard about blocking Sheik's Fsmash when you notice you're at high percent and are aware she has limited killing options? Sheik's Fsmash is really not reliable when DI'd, and it's easy to do that. You might as well complain about her Usmash, which is stronger and actually has setups.

Sheik's Fsmash is nigh unescapable, but it's extremely far from being unpunishable if at any point both hits don't connect cleanly. If it were indeed a spammable move that was safe to use and launched quickly to wreck the limitations of reactive DI, there would be big reason to look at it. None of that is true, though.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Yeah, being able to escape from Multi-hit moves is one of the things that makes them different from single hit moves. So what if it's a weakness, its also a trait of that type of move. Although I think they should be made so that if you use them properly, at a good distance they should connect, I don't think that just because one hit of it hits them the rest should automatically.

 

[GHNeko]

Whats this E-Z mode thing ya'll keep talking about? I mean isnt it E-Z mode to mash a direction on the analog stick and escape a attack that you got yourself hit by? Now why should mult-hit SMASHES be escapable? Just cuz you were off your game and got hit? Sheik's fsmash is so telegraphed too so what you're saying to me is "Why do they get a break just because they caught me?"

Which is why we're going to try and look at Multi-hitters so they aren't E-Z mode to either party.

Once again, we aren't trying to return it back to what it was, so stop bringing that up as it's a tired reason now.

We're trying to make it so that it's hard to DI/SDI a properly spaced multi-hitter, not make it auto-link nor make it just do the work of DI for you.

Multi-hit smashes should be escapable because that's how their design is built. :/

That's their inherent nature. It's a design flaw in the move itself.

What's hard about blocking Sheik's Fsmash when you notice you're at high percent and are aware she has limited killing options? Sheik's Fsmash is really not reliable when DI'd, and it's easy to do that. You might as well complain about her Usmash, which is stronger and actually has setups.

Sheik's Fsmash is nigh unescapable, but it's extremely far from being unpunishable if at any point both hits don't connect cleanly. If it were indeed a spammable move that was safe to use and launched quickly to wreck the limitations of reactive DI, there would be big reason to look at it. None of that is true, though.

Doesn't mean it should auto-link, no matter what. <_>

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Making multi-hits truly SDI-able just means they will be worthless at high level play where people SDI on a twitch.

I've also said that multi-hits moves already have several weaknesses that don't include escapability.

 

[Wavedash Master]

Fox's JC Shine in BR testing.

Is this a trade off or a straight buff for Fox? If I recall correctly, Fox is a fairly powerful character as is. (Then again, it's only for testing purposes)

 

[GHNeko]

Making multi-hits truly SDI-able just means they will be worthless at high level play where people SDI on a twitch.

I've also said that multi-hits moves already have several weaknesses that don't include escapability.

So we tailor the change towards high level play in which at such a level, it's STILL hard to get out but possible.

durp

Is this a trade off or a straight buff for Fox? If I recall correctly, Fox is a fairly powerful character as is. (Then again, it's only for testing purposes)

Trade off. Fox lost something in air ( I think it was the stall) and he can no longer dair to usmash which was his main method to kill too.

Shanus says it's balanced, soooo I believe it's balanced. :V

 

[Plum]

Whats this E-Z mode thing ya'll keep talking about? I mean isnt it E-Z mode to mash a direction on the analog stick and escape a attack that you got yourself hit by? Now why should mult-hit SMASHES be escapable? Just cuz you were off your game and got hit? Sheik's fsmash is so telegraphed too so what you're saying to me is "Why do they get a break just because they caught me?"

It's one thing if simple DI alone gets you out of a smash (that's something that shouldn't work). SDI isn't just some simple "EZ mode" thing though; yeah SDI is very easy on the multihit attacks with several hits (such as Pika's Dsmash, Rob's Dsmash, G&W's Bair, and etc.) but on something like Sheik's Fsmash it wouldn't be so simple as just mashing the control stick.

There actually would be a degree of skill involved in SDI'ing out of a single hit to avoid the second.

And they aren't getting a break; getting a break, to me, implies it is just handed to them such as when Sonic's Usmash randomly tosses you out right in front of Sonic to easily punish him without ANY input on your part. They are actually putting effort into getting out of the attack, and are being rewarded for their own effort and the poor spacing on your part that allowed them to avoid the second part thanks to SDI.

The attack is VERY punishable. Nobody can refute that without being an absolute idiot. But why somebody could think that even the POOREST spaced use of the move should guarantee the second hit is beyond me. That is EZ mode. Guaranteeing success on a very poor effort on your part to space the move when the opponent does everything in their power to escape is the EZ mode people speak of.

 

[MK26]

Ryoko, you make it sound like no matter what change will be made, it will be unbalanced and a problem. Why?

We can change stuff. Good spacing of the move should all but guarantee a second hit, but poor spacing should be escapable. If I hit my opponent with Sheik's thigh with the first part of the fsmash, no amount of DI should save them. But if I hit with the tip of the foot on the first hit, they should be able to get out. And it'd be my fault that I spaced it poorly, and I should get punished for it. There's a line called balance. We can tweak stuff until we walk that line.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Making multi-hits truly SDI-able just means they will be worthless at high level play where people SDI on a twitch.

I've also said that multi-hits moves already have several weaknesses that don't include escapability.

In a high level of play, Single hit moves also lose the substance of their strength on Multihit moves. Being harder to DI matters much less since everyone at a high level can DI them just as well.

 

[Yingyay]

if people are complaining about ez mode and the wbr actually intend to do something about it, then maybe there should be some technically difficult AT's in the game <_<

Which is why we're going to try and look at Multi-hitters so they aren't E-Z mode to either party.

Once again, we aren't trying to return it back to what it was, so stop bringing that up as it's a tired reason now.

We're trying to make it so that it's hard to DI/SDI a properly spaced multi-hitter, not make it auto-link nor make it just do the work of DI for you.

Multi-hit smashes should be escapable because that's how their design is built. :/

That's their inherent nature. It's a design flaw in the move itself.



Doesn't mean it should auto-link, no matter what. <_>

1)Mult-hits arent ez-mode thats all im trying to get thru to you people. If you catch them then they get punished. Why is there a opportunityto escape if you catch someone in one? The opponent should just eat it. If its properly space. If not then the last hit wont even do the executer any good because the attack is most likely to miss. I never said anything about returning it back to normal either.

2) The fact is it DOESNT auto link no matter what. If its properly spaced then you face the facts. Hers in particular isnt really that strong.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Trade off. Fox lost something in air ( I think it was the stall) and he can no longer dair to usmash which was his main method to kill too.

Shanus says it's balanced, soooo I believe it's balanced. :V

I also believe shanus mentioned that you can't follow up a dair with a forward facing utilt. Reverse utilts would still connect though.