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[RyokoYaksa]

In a high level of play, Single hit moves also lose the substance of their strength on Multihit moves. Being harder to DI matters much less since everyone at a high level can DI them just as well.

The advantage of a multi-hit move being harder to dodge lessens since people will time their dodges more properly in high level play, whatever that means.
At any rate, easy DI opportunities are actually much less then you think they are in this game because of lolhitlag.

 

[Mattnumbers]

At a high level of play the fact still stands that even if you perfectly spot dodge a Multihit move (providing it's long enough), you will still get hit by the end of it.

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

Brawl+ is dead and not good :3

 

[RyokoYaksa]

It's entirely dependent on the attack in question and the quality of the character's spot dodge. As an example Zelda's Fsmash has hitboxes that span for a total of 10 frames, which is actually easy for anyone to dodge.

 

[Mattnumbers]

It's entirely dependent on the attack in question and the quality of the character's spot dodge. As an example Zelda's Fsmash has hitboxes that span for a total of 10 frames, which is actually easy for anyone to dodge.

Yep, it is entirely dependent on those two things.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Basicallly they end up powershielding it right out of their spotdogde cause the hits aren't frequent enough

Anyway

Ryoko, most people won't be SDIing Shiek's f-smash even at high level play, unless it's painfully obvious that it's coming (and even then they might not get out if you spaced it right)

Matt, it's still possible to mess up your DI every now and then at high level play, ESPECIALLY when your opponent has a lot of different attacks they could hit you with <_<. You won't mess up survival DI that often, but let's not forget that survival DI is not the only DI that exists. Multihit moves still suffer from being bad in combos as they get DI'd correctly every time, where as with single hit moves you're a lot more likely to catch your opponent of guard

 

[Yingyay]

At a high level of play the fact still stands that even if you perfectly spot dodge a Multihit move (providing it's long enough), you will still get hit by the end of it.

It's called poor judgement.

 

[GHNeko]

I also believe shanus mentioned that you can't follow up a dair with a forward facing utilt. Reverse utilts would still connect though.

NOW THAT'S...

 

[CountKaiser]

>_>

<_<

THe first hit of the move has a 0.5 SDI capacity.

Increase it as necessary, and keep the fsmash as it is now.

Also, is this sexy new AT Magus cancelling?

 

[Yingyay]

>_>

<_<

THe first hit of the move has a 0.5 SDI capacity.

Increase it as necessary, and keep the fsmash as it is now.

Also, is this sexy new AT Magus cancelling?

pfft.....0.5 should be all you need. Think about it, increasing it would make it pointless to use again.

Whats with this Sheik Stigma tho? A bunch of characters got unnecessary buffs and kept it. Sheik gets a fix and its the end of the world.

 

[Mattnumbers]

I still think the move should have lower KB, Sheik shouldn't have straight up killing options in my opinion.

EDIT: Yingyay, bring up the unnecessary buffs for those other characters after we finish discussing Sheik in that case.

 

[GHNeko]

The advantage of a multi-hit move being harder to dodge lessens since people will time their dodges more properly in high level play, whatever that means.
At any rate, easy DI opportunities are actually much less then you think they are in this game because of lolhitlag.

The same can be said about Single-hit moves too. <_>

Brawl+ is dead and not good :3

Go away.

It's called poor judgement.

And they get punished for it rather it was a single-hit, it probably would of gotten punished, bar kirby and gaw.

Also, is this sexy new AT Magus cancelling?

lolno. <3

pfft.....0.5 should be all you need. Think about it, increasing it would make it pointless to use again.

Whats with this Sheik Stigma tho? A bunch of characters got unnecessary buffs and kept it. Sheik gets a fix and its the end of the world.

Marth says hi. MK says hi. Don't think Shiek is the only one getting looked at. ****, Falco utilt is being looked at again.

Dont play a victim, son.

 

[Strong Badam]

That wouldnt change the fact that people are still gonna get hit by mult-hit moves.

you mean like fox's dair?

 

[Yingyay]

I still think the move should have lower KB, Sheik shouldn't have straight up killing options in my opinion.

EDIT: Yingyay, bring up the unnecessary buffs for those other characters after we finish discussing Sheik in that case.

1) Usmash is a striaght up killing option. There's even setups for it. (Read DI = free usasmh)
2) Fine, but just keep them in your head.

you mean like fox's dair?

Aerial moves are different.

Marth says hi. MK says hi. Don't think Shiek is the only one getting looked at. ****, Falco utilt is being looked at again.

Dont play a victim, son.[/QUOTE]
Who's playing victim? I was against nerfin Marth's side-b. MK we all know deserved nerfs. Isnt he banned in Vbrawl now? I've been saying for two nights now that sheik isnt a problem. If you want to look at anything look at squirtle. God and popeye know's he's a mess.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Ryoko, most people won't be SDIing Shiek's f-smash even at high level play, unless it's painfully obvious that it's coming (and even then they might not get out if you spaced it right)

They would just block it in that case. That already is the move's biggest weakness that makes it highly punishable by anyone. Shielding is still very rewarding in this game. I find it very surprising that people are really complaining about a risky move like Sheik's Fsmash of all things.

 

[GHNeko]

It still doesnt warrent auto-linking. <_>

We'll allow it to link really well, but it still should be SDIable. <_>

 

[RyokoYaksa]

It still doesnt warrent auto-linking. <_>

Why not? It already has an easy and very effective means of defeating it which in turn, balances it.

 

[GHNeko]

The move never needed to be balanced in the first place lmao.

And no ground based multi-hit move should't auto-link.

That's how it should be to remove the E-Z mode aspect when it comes to DI/SDI on multi-hit moves.

 

[Rion]

Not even KO moves? Don't you think that's going a little far?

Why should multi-hit -KO- moves have the gigantic, huge disadvantage of not connecting properly when single hit ones you just need to connect them and there's no thinking about it?

 

[GHNeko]

Not even KO moves.

And No, I don think it's going too far because if Multi-hit KO moves are moderately hard to DI, even at high level play, there is nothing wrong with that.

 

[CountKaiser]

Removing SDI from multihit moves doesn't remove DI, neko.

Also, multihit moves are easy to DI because you have forever and a day to set up your direction.

 

[Strong Badam]

lol you guys don't want brawl+ to be ez mode?

auto-l canceling yayuhzz!

 

[Yingyay]

Not even KO moves.

And No, I don think it's going too far because if Multi-hit KO moves are moderately hard to DI, even at high level play, there is nothing wrong with that.

That's just.....silly. A ko move should only ko by luck even if it connects is what it sounds like you're saying.

 

[GHNeko]

Removing SDI from multihit moves doesn't remove DI, neko.

Also, multihit moves are easy to DI because you have forever and a day to set up your direction.

I know that. I just have a habit of listing both forms of DI.

Not all multi-hit moves are that long. The longer ones should be harder to DI though.

lol you guys don't want brawl+ to be ez mode?

auto-l canceling yayuhzz!

There is a different between ATs and Arbitrary ATs. Let's not go into this AGAIN.

That's just.....silly. A ko move should only ko by luck even if it connects is what it sounds like you're saying.

UH. NO. Because player's influence the success of Multi-hit moves. Not luck. Everything in a multi-hit move can be controlled.

If a move is moderately hard to DI out of, that means you CAN get out, but you really have to TRY, and if you dont try hard enough, you don't get out.


That's simple and imo, ideal.

 

[Rion]

Nothing wrong with important KO moves kind of... not killing?

That is how you're supposed to win, isn't it?

To be honest, there aren't even that many multi-hit KO moves off the top of my head. It can't possibly be that huge a deal to everyone... can it?

 

[Yingyay]

Nothing wrong with important KO moves kind of... not killing?

That is how you're supposed to win, isn't it?

To be honest, there aren't even that many multi-hit KO moves off the top of my head. It can't possibly be that huge a deal to everyone... can it?

I dunno. But when you put it that way, it sounds like johning "Sheik was supposed to five star frog splash gimp me. Not hit me with a finishing move or any sort"

UH. NO. Because player's influence the success of Multi-hit moves. Not luck. Everything in a multi-hit move can be controlled.

If a move is moderately hard to DI out of, that means you CAN get out, but you really have to TRY, and if you dont try hard enough, you don't get out.


That's simple and imo, ideal.

-_- Smash DI is player influencing the success of a multi-hit move tho.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

The move never needed to be balanced in the first place lmao.

And no ground based multi-hit move should auto-link.

That's how it should be to remove the E-Z mode aspect when it comes to DI/SDI on multi-hit moves.

Neither did 14786 other things, and yet....

Ground based moves are the multi-hit moves that are really supposed to auto link to begin with. Unlike aerials, you have no chance of following their DI as you have almost no mobility doing these.

There's plenty of room to exercise DI/SDI on single hit combos that are so prevalent for low-damage builders. Using it to avoid kills just means a move carries risks that something like a single-hit sweetspotted move does not. It's less something that proves skill and more something that makes people drop characters.

 

[GHNeko]

Nothing wrong with important KO moves kind of... not killing?

That is how you're supposed to win, isn't it?

To be honest, there aren't even that many multi-hit KO moves off the top of my head. It can't possibly be that huge a deal to everyone... can it?

Lolwhat. I never said anything about them NOT killing.

I just want Multi-hit moves to you know, to be in the middle when it concerns DI. No mutli hit should link mindlessly, and no multihit should DI you out of the move for you.

All multi-hit moves should be moderately hard to DI out of, which means that is still somewhat biased towards the move's owner, but just not all the god **** way.

Neither did 14786 other things, and yet....

Ground based moves are the multi-hit moves that are really supposed to auto link to begin with. Unlike aerials, you have no chance of following their DI as you have almost no mobility doing these.

There's plenty of room to exercise DI/SDI on single hit combos that are so prevalent for low-damage builders. Using it to avoid kills just means a move carries risks that something like a single-hit sweetspotted move does not. It's less something that proves skill and more something that makes people drop characters.

Which is why we're going over some of them.

The fsmash never really warrented a rebalance anyway. It was a sub-par move and shiek was a high mid and above character. The fsmash had less reason to be "balanced" :/

I dont think it should of been made to auto-link, just like I dont think Zelda should get no free ball side B, Lucario shouldnt have no helpless after Up B, and some other things I personally disagree with and would rather them be redone or removed.

 

[Dark Sonic]

lol you guys don't want brawl+ to be ez mode?

auto-l canceling yayuhzz!

It's not an L-cancel, it's a global reduction to aerial landing lag. Some characters even have different amounts of lag reduced. It's no different than any of the OTHER frame speed changes (lower lag without having to press a button? DEAR GOD!)

It's suprising that people still can't put 2 and 2 together. We change the startup lag and ending lag of moves all the time, wouldn't it make sense that we'd do it for landing lag too? We just happened to do it globaly at the begining to increase the general pace of the game, and don't wanna take any of them out because we've already balanced the game around them.

Lag canceling DOES NOT EXIST in brawl+, these are the moves NEW landing lag times.

 

[Rion]

A good example of an auto-linking ground move is Marth's Side-B.

I don't really remember it being DI-able or escape-able whatsoever as long as you use the right slashes.

Isn't that an example of a multi-hit move that has absolutely no problem connecting it's multiple hits?

What about Marth's Nair? That's 2 hits yet it links properly no problem almost flawlessly.

 

[Yingyay]

An good example of an auto-linking ground move is probably Marth's Side-B.

I don't really remember it being DI-able or escape-able whatsoever as long as you use the right slashes.

Isn't that an example of a multi-hit move that has absolutely no problem connecting it's multiple hits?

See but what happened over time was that the last few hits had a bit more knockback to them so your finishers weren't reliable at all as opposed to when they used to be. That might be the cause of this mult-hit thing.

 

[GHNeko]

A good example of an auto-linking ground move is Marth's Side-B.

I don't really remember it being DI-able or escape-able whatsoever as long as you use the right slashes.

Isn't that an example of a multi-hit move that has absolutely no problem connecting it's multiple hits?

What about Marth's Nair? That's 2 hits yet it links properly no problem almost flawlessly.

Actually, not all variations of Marth's DB connect 100% all the time, certain varitions are mid-high percents send away before Marth can finish them. :V

And really, the move's mechanics are pretty **** different than normal multi-grounded moves.

And Marth's nair is an aerial move, meaning is has mometum and mobility behind it, as all multi-hit aerial moves. They're seemingly different than ground based ones.

I've been talking soley about grouded multi-hit moves.

 

[Yingyay]

Lolwhat. I never said anything about them NOT killing.

I just want Multi-hit moves to you know, to be in the middle when it concerns DI. No mutli hit should link mindlessly, and no multihit should DI you out of the move for you.

All multi-hit moves should be moderately hard to DI out of, which means that is still somewhat biased towards the move's owner, but just not all the god **** way.


Which is why we're going over some of them.

The fsmash never really warrented a rebalance anyway. It was a sub-par move and shiek was a high mid and above character. The fsmash had less reason to be "balanced" :/

I dont think it should of been made to auto-link, just like I dont think Zelda should get no free ball side B, Lucario shouldnt have no helpless after Up B, and some other things I personally disagree with and would rather them be redone or removed.

Im telling you man, if you ever play a good sheik you'll still see fsmash being used. Its a risky move, and the re-balancing balcanced the risk-reward factor.

 

[Mattnumbers]

It's not an L-cancel, it's a global reduction to aerial landing lag. Some characters even have different amounts of lag reduced. It's no different than any of the OTHER frame speed changes (lower lag without having to press a button? DEAR GOD!)

It's suprising that people still can't put 2 and 2 together. We change the startup lag and ending lag of moves all the time, wouldn't it make sense that we'd do it for landing lag too? We just happened to do it globaly at the begining to increase the general pace of the game, and don't wanna take any of them out because we've already balanced the game around them.

Lag canceling DOES NOT EXIST in brawl+, these are the moves NEW landing lag times.

People need to stop calling it "Auto L-Cancelling", it really annoys me since that implies that the game is doing work for you. Not to mention all the stupid crap about it that Brawl+ haters spew all over AiB.

Lets just call it GLR or "Global Lag Reduction" instead.

 

[Rion]

Which is why I said certain slashes, not all of them. And do you ever want to use the variations that are escape-able?

Not really.

And is Zelda's Side B Free Fall removal really that bothersome for you too? God Lord even without the free fall you're a gigantic moving target. The end lag is also so bad it's almost a free hit on Zelda anyway.

Sole reason for that change was to prevent stupid, unnecessary SDs with it, nothing more really. Don't even think about using it to recover!

 

[Strong Badam]

There is a different between ATs and Arbitrary ATs. Let's not go into this AGAIN.

I know about the arguments for Auto-L Canceling (or just lag reduction, whatever the **** you wanna call it) and against True L-Canceling (mainly, there's never a reason NOT to L-cancel other than mindgames). I do not agree with them. Manual L-canceling made every combo, every maneuver, every approach, every spaced aerial require work and effort. Now, you just jump, attack, and hit down. Brawl + is faster-paced (and more fun... and less ****... etc.) than vBrawl, yes, but I still feel really cheap when I don't have to work for most of my combos anymore. The most technical thing I have to do with Fox is drill shine upsmash, and that's not very difficult. There's no satisfaction after taking time and effort into learning l-canceling, shffling, and seeing it pay off. You don't have to take time or effort into learning anything other than jumping, attacking, and fastfalling, which are all basic techniques.

that is all.

 

[GHNeko]

Im telling you man, if you ever play a good sheik you'll still see fsmash being used. Its a risky move, and the re-balancing balcanced the risk-reward factor.

One of my TX rival's is a Shiek in Plus. My win ratio against his shiek is 40-60 with my own mains.

It was a risky move. Okay. Making it really hard to DI is still what should happen to the move rather than having it auto link, considering it's a move that Shiek's normally shouldnt use because it's a sub par smash and Shiek is focused on gimping and damage wracking and combos.

I know about the arguments for Auto-L Canceling (or just lag reduction, whatever the **** you wanna call it) and against True L-Canceling (mainly, there's never a reason NOT to L-cancel other than mindgames). I do not agree with them. Manual L-canceling made every combo, every maneuver, every approach, every spaced aerial require work and effort. Now, you just jump, attack, and hit down. Brawl + is faster-paced (and more fun... and less ****... etc.) than vBrawl, yes, but I still feel really cheap when I don't have to work for most of my combos anymore. The most technical thing I have to do with Fox is drill shine upsmash, and that's not very difficult. There's no satisfaction after taking time and effort into learning l-canceling, shffling, and seeing it pay off. You don't have to take time or effort into learning anything other than jumping, attacking, and fastfalling, which are all basic techniques.

that is all.

Then you should know we're trying to at Tech Skill and ATs that aren't always a good choice to use. <_>

 

[Yingyay]

I know about the arguments for Auto-L Canceling (or just lag reduction, whatever the **** you wanna call it) and against True L-Canceling (mainly, there's never a reason NOT to L-cancel other than mindgames). I do not agree with them. Manual L-canceling made every combo, every maneuver, every approach, every spaced aerial require work and effort. Now, you just jump, attack, and hit down. Brawl + is faster-paced (and more fun... and less ****... etc.) than vBrawl, yes, but I still feel really cheap when I don't have to work for most of my combos anymore. The most technical thing I have to do with Fox is drill shine upsmash, and that's not very difficult. There's no satisfaction after taking time and effort into learning l-canceling, shffling, and seeing it pay off. You don't have to take time or effort into learning anything other than jumping, attacking, and fastfalling, which are all basic techniques.

that is all.

You're playing two different games and hack of the second game man. Melee is melee, vBrawl is vBrawl, and Brawl+ is b+.

 

[Mattnumbers]

That is why we need to add more AT's to this game, but not ones like L-canceling that are so mindless.

 

[Yingyay]

One of my TX rival's is a Shiek in Plus. My win ratio against his shiek is 40-60 with my own mains.

It was a risky move. Okay. Making it really hard to DI is still what should happen to the move rather than having it auto link, considering it's a move that Shiek's normally shouldnt use because it's a sub par smash and Shiek is focused on gimping and damage wracking and combos.

So when you get hit by her usmash, where's the gimping in that? Its a finisher right? Why not nerf that? She's supposed to be a gimping and combo wracking character?

So yeah, making her fsmash connect isnt taking away anything or adding much really.

So is the ratio in your favor? If so then you should know that her fsmash isnt really a deciding factor.