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[Pyrostormer]

What about them?

 

[Dark Sonic]

What about them?

They last just as long and aren't escapable?

So wouldn't I rather have a sex kick then a multihit attack?

Point is, just being able to DI out of a PROPERLY SPACED multihit attack is dumb. Smash DI is acceptable (for longer multihit moves like Sonic's upsmash or Zelda's upsmash, I'd really like at least 2 smash DIs <_<). DIing out when you're already at the very edge of the attack to begin with is acceptable. But being able to just hold a direction an instantly escaping regardless of what the other player does seems dumb to me (which is the case for a few moves and WAS the case for Shiek's f-smash. You actually didn't even have to hold a direction, it was just that bad). All that means is that the move is not functional.

 

[CountKaiser]

Oh...and let's not forget that sex kicks have all the benefits of a multihit move (long hitbox duration and a bit of priority) while also having none of the deficits <_<

Once again, what about sex kicks?


Edit: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

ninja'd :<

 

[Pyrostormer]

Sex kicks have their own weaknesses. They reduce in power the longer they stay out (Multihit moves don't, the "power" is always in the last hit) and are easily shieldgrabable (all of them, and if you run through your opponents shield with it then you lose the benefits of the lingering hitbox anyway).

 

[Hyrus]

This thread is for the discussion of the nightly builds made publicly available of the plussery codeset as well as other related codesets. Also, this thread is not for spamming random ideas or whining endlessly.

This has been going on for several pages, so forgive me for not wanting to sift through it all to check. Do the mechanics of multi-hit moves somehow tie into the current/future nightlies, or are a bunch of kids learning about Smash Bros and discussing basic mechanics since 1999 in the wrong thread?

 

[Pyrostormer]

The former. Good job not reading :x

 

[Dark Sonic]

Sex kicks have their own weaknesses. They reduce in power the longer they stay out (Multihit moves don't, the "power" is always in the last hit) and are easily shieldgrabable (all of them, and if you run through your opponents shield with it then you lose the benefits of the lingering hitbox anyway).

since you can esape the multihit before the power hit, that point is kinda moot (depends on how easy it is to escape, but some are as simple as holding up <_<).

Most sex kicks also have quite a bit of range and are difficult to shieldgrab when spaced properly (just as multihits are hard to shieldgrab period).

Sure it's "easier" to shieldgrab a sex kick than a multihit move, but this is a weakness that can be mitigated by the player, while multihits weakness of "escapability" cannot really be reduced. A skilled player will space his sex kick to avoid possible punishment, but will still have to deal with his multihit moves being escaped no matter what (to the point of not even using certain moves as a result).

If the move is situationally inescapable (if you space it right they don't get out without some SDI or something) then it becomes a lot more meaningful. That's all I'm really looking for.

 

[GHNeko]

They last just as long and aren't escapable?

So wouldn't I rather have a sex kick then a multihit attack?

Point is, just being able to DI out of a PROPERLY SPACED multihit attack is dumb. Smash DI is acceptable (for longer multihit moves like Sonic's upsmash or Zelda's upsmash, I'd really like at least 2 smash DIs <_<). DIing out when you're already at the very edge of the attack to begin with is acceptable. But being able to just hold a direction an instantly escaping regardless of what the other player does seems dumb to me (which is the case for a few moves and WAS the case for Shiek's f-smash. You actually didn't even have to hold a direction, it was just that bad). All that means is that the move is not functional.

The thing is though, Shiek's fsmash forces a link meaning that DI and SDI are practically null from how the Fsmash works.

There is nothing wrong with making a move work better but forcing it to work is just kinda....e-z.

I'd rather the move be moderately hard to DI out of something reasonable. <_>

 

[Pyrostormer]

Err...it's pretty hard to escape ANY move without some type of SDI.

ROBs Dsmash can be escaped just by holding up...and TLs Fsmash (the unfixed one)...Shiek's too IIRC...umm...none of Zelda's smashes can be escaped just by holding a direction :x I don't know I'm probably missing a lot but that's all I can think of.

 

[GHNeko]

I'm just trying to remove E-Z Link attributes on moves, especially moves that dont fit i with a character at all. :V

I'm neutral on Falco SHDL removal now anyways, generally for the sake of balance and less E-Z Mode.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Err...it's pretty hard to escape ANY move without some type of SDI.

ROBs Dsmash can be escaped just by holding up...and TLs Fsmash (the unfixed one)...Shiek's too IIRC...umm...none of Zelda's smashes can be escaped just by holding a direction :x I don't know I'm probably missing a lot but that's all I can think of.

Pit's f-smash (that one's fine though, when spaced CORRECTLY you still need SDI. Perfect example here imo), Pit's upsmash (hold sideways and you miss the third hit <_<), Pit's uair (I'm noticing a trend?), Sonic's upsmash, Sonic's jab combo, and Sonic's uair (another one that works if spaced, so it's fine) off the top of my head.

Considering the pure duration of a few of those...I'd think it would be reasonable to ask if it even required MULTIPLE SDI's to get out of some (like Sonic upsmash. You have 10 years to do them after all). At least then you'd have to differentiate between multihit moves and learn their proper counters (in addition to it being harder to escape on pure reaction alone)

 

[Pyrostormer]

oh god sonics usmash

fix that ****

 

[RyokoYaksa]

The thing is though, Shiek's fsmash forces a link meaning that DI and SDI are practically null from how the Fsmash works.

There is nothing wrong with making a move work better but forcing it to work is just kinda....e-z.

I'd rather the move be moderately hard to DI out of something reasonable. <_>

Neko, Sheik's Fsmash isn't even a problem without being escapable along with other, similar moves. I've said this 50 times.

 

[JCaesar]

Beware: long multiquote post!

As someone who plays sheik fairly regularly, I don't think sheik really needs the fsmash buff at all. Even if it is true that it can be shieldgrabbed easily, that doesn't change the fact that it is now one of her most reliable kill moves, which goes almost entirely against her character. The first kick may not be lightning, but it's certainly fast enough to catch someone in their lag as a punishing move, proceeding into the second to kill them (assuming they had already hit killing percents). It is not a hard move to land, no matter how "awkward" some people will say it is, and it seems too much like a cop-out at times when you should have taken the chance to get a gimp earlier, but instead are rewarded with a kill anyway, even though you screwed up and let your foe live to 130%+. It's not meant to be just thrown out there, but it gets the job done as a reliable punisher that kills. It's not broken (I'm well aware that it won't KO until ~130% with good DI), but it acts as a crutch for when she fails at doing her job, which is gimping people before they hit ridiculous percents.

Though after what some other members of the WBR want to do with her fair and uair, this has kinda hit the back burner for me while arguing about something considerably more gamechanging. Some of you may have seen my arguments with ryoko in the irc about her fair speedup and how ryoko would rather see the change applied to uair. While the fsmash makes killing for her easier if she fails her core game, this completely changes her core game - her combo structure, her stage preferences, and her gimp potential, which almost seems like it's trying to make the fsmash change justified, by changing the archetype of her game.

I suppose a little background is in need for why the fair change was initially put in place. The fair change was implemented after we had started to play around with increasing her fair's power, both as a way to further define her established character and to help a character which at the time was somewhat lacking. It was originally raised from 108 to 135 growth (its 9 damage, 0 base, and 30 degree angle were left alone), which proved too powerful, and borderline broken. So, instead, we opted to raise the fair's overall utility without raising its power too much. It was given 120 growth, a modest increase over the original, and had five frames cut off of its aerial endlag, which didn't affect the autocancel frame. This did several things, mostly revolving around rising fairs. First, it made it so that at low percents, if she attempted to do dthrow -> fair, she would be able to fair again before the opponent broke out of hitstun, as opposed to receiving a kick in the face from characters such as luigi simply because she landed her extremely low kb attack. Second, it gave her the ability to perform a FJ fair -> nair or bair (and then land on a platform immediately afterward) reliably on platform stages such as battlefield. This creates both frame traps (for techchasing situations) and bolsters her combo ability on platform stages, being able to fair -> nair, land, and continue her combo. The third effect was that it helped her gimping game by allowing her to act sooner when chasing people offstage with fairs. If you'll notice, this fair edit was done explicitly buffing her strengths, as opposed to improving her weaknesses.

Now that that's out of the way, here is her vbrawl frame data (brackets indicate the autocancel frame):

Forward Air
HIT: 5
END: 28 {14}
LAND: 15

Up Air
HIT: 4
END: 42 {29}
LAND: 30

The currently implemented fair edit causes the move to end on frame 23 instead of 28. The uair edit being discussed would cause the uair to end on frame 31 instead of 42 and autocancel frame 24 instead of frame 29. Note that the same amount of time that is taken off of the fair's aerial endlag (not landlag) is what is taken off of the uair's AC timing, with a much greater reduction in the uair's aerial endlag.

For those familiar with the current sheik (you'd better be if you're arguing about her, and the same goes for any character discussed in this thread), you would know that her current game revolves largely around comboing and gimping, usually putting her in a greatly disadvantaged situation if she doesn't get a gimp (unless she manages to land that fsmash you all have been talking about for the past page or so, that is). Comboing takes on a variety of forms, while gimps tend to come most often from fair (and often assisted by her chain edgehog). Her combos are largely horizontal, only occasionally taking the form of uair juggles, but usually making great use of her grab, ftilt, fair, nair, and bair, occasionally using dair as a mixup. Her combos are particularly noteworthy on platform stages, often being a mix of comboing and platform techchasing, with the platforms not only acting as a potential frame trap for her opponent, but also enabling her to do things like rising fj fair -> nair -> land immediately afterward and run off to continue the combo, as I mentioned earlier. This is her established character. It's the sheik that sheik has been since the very early plussery sets, and besides the introduction of the fsmash, she has largely been left alone.

Removing the frame speed change on fair and placing it on uair (frame 19, 2x speed) results in a juggle-happy sheik that now uses vertical combos/strings far more than ever precedented for her. Her gimps are less effective, so it's less worthwhile trying to gimp them from a combo. Her horizontal combos themselves are less effective, meaning it's harder to get them into a position you can gimp them in from a combo. Instead, her most damaging combos end up juggling her foes upward, which ultimately ends up in her playing the "airdodge game" with her opponents, where her uair ends long before the foe's AD does, and even if they AD, she still easily hits them with another uair before they land, putting them back into the air. Only characters with a good hitbox below them or some form of counter even have the means to escape it when properly set up. She could technically do this before against most characters, with the uair having 38 frames of lag, ending just before the shortest airdodge in the game of 39 frames, but she had to attack near the beginning of the AD (making it a very very "almost combo" in the first place, with the frame trap not even working at all on characters with particularly short ADs), and you had to be high enough in the air that you could finish the animation and throw out another before you land (not just autocancel... outright finish the animation, which happens 13 frames after it begins to AC). With the speedup applied, it finishes frame 31, giving plenty of room for error on every AD in the game, as well as giving her many more situations which she can set up this frame trap in, due to being able to execute it closer to the ground and still have enough time to get the second uair out.

If you hadn't noticed yet, sheik's entire strategy has just changed from something that at first seems like it's only taking away a little utility from one move and adding it to another. In fact, one of the main reasons for wanting this change is that it makes her fair gimps less effective and encourages more diversity in her moveset. No. That is not what this does. It actually causes less diversity in her moveset, by giving her a consistently good option after mid-percents against almost everyone, which outright destroys many characters.

Sure, she can still gimp with the fair/uair swap, but not as well. Sure, she can still use horizontal combos with the fair/uair swap, but not as well. Sure, she can still use platform stages with the fair/uair swap.......... but not anywhere fricking close to how fricking well she can use flat stages now. When you have a frame trap with that much room for error that is used to keep the foe in the air, sheik will do best on flat stages that keep maximum distance between the foe and safe ground.

It completely inverts her playstyle. With fair sped up, she loves platforms, horizontal combos, and gimps. With uair sped up instead, she loves flat stages, vertical combos, and simply keeping a helpless foe trapped in the air until she can kill them.

Finally someone who gets what I was trying to say.

If anything nerf the knockback of it.

This is basically what I've been trying to say.

Anyway the major problem that people are having now is the fact that they cant wriggle out of sheik's f-smash right?

No. It's the uncharacteristically high KB. The EZ landing of the move is just a contributing factor to making it better than Sheik needs.

And Zelda's d-smash is not a multihit move <_<. If you hit with one hitbox the others can't hit them

It is, and it can.

Anyway, I was just pointing out that most multihit smashes actually don't hit through spotdodges any more efficiently than single hit smashes (as most multihit smashes are only 2-3 hits )

The true multihit smashes (not the dsmashes that hit once on either side) in general do punish spotdodges and shields better than single-hit smashes. Not only because they usually last longer, but because they shieldpoke better too.

Neko, Sheik's Fsmash isn't even a problem without being escapable along with other, similar moves. I've said this 50 times.

I don't think escapability is an issue for that particular move. I'm fine with it linking. I just think it has uncharacteristically high KB for Sheik for how easy it is to land.

 

[weinzey]

imo we should try an increased bkb with reduced kbg on sheik's fsmash so that it pushes opponents offstage very early but kills later (at 140-150%), kinda like jiggs modified fthrow.

 

[shanus]

livestreaming with dangerlance, shanus, and shortline: http://www.justin.tv/shanus19

 

[SymphonicSage12]

New nightly today?

please...? :D

 

[Alphatron]

SHANUS, WHERE'S THE NIGHTLY. YOU SAID THERE'D BE A NIGHTLY.


And is the stream done of the new nightly to come by the way?

 

[Mattnumbers]

They last just as long and aren't escapable?

So wouldn't I rather have a sex kick then a multihit attack?

Point is, just being able to DI out of a PROPERLY SPACED multihit attack is dumb. Smash DI is acceptable (for longer multihit moves like Sonic's upsmash or Zelda's upsmash, I'd really like at least 2 smash DIs <_<). DIing out when you're already at the very edge of the attack to begin with is acceptable. But being able to just hold a direction an instantly escaping regardless of what the other player does seems dumb to me (which is the case for a few moves and WAS the case for Shiek's f-smash. You actually didn't even have to hold a direction, it was just that bad). All that means is that the move is not functional.

I agree, and that's why I dislike what ryoko has done with Zelda's smashes.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Matt, the escapes on Usmash were random and Fsmash was ridiculously bad.

 

[leafgreen386]

-_- You went from saying something about the f-smash, then you went into aerials. Then you went back to her F-smash to talk about her juggles. We're talking about leaving the fsmash alone. If anything nerf the knockback of it. And from the time Sheik's f-smash was changed to now, nobody brought up anything about her aerials being changed. And even still, why are you bringing up the fact that her whole game revolves around gimps when we're trying to discuss why Sheik's new Fsmash should be removed?

Congrats. You completely missed the point. I gave my opinion on the fsmash in the first paragraph. I then went on to say that I don't consider it nearly as big of an issue as something that is actually being discussed and at this rate is going to happen. I brought up the aerial thing because the fsmash argument reminded me of it, and I figured I'd bring up something I consider an issue that most people probably didn't even know was going on.

Leaf, the Fair with the speedup is in the "way too good" category. She's bland with it because the move is now spammy and *too* safe in the air.

It's too safe in the air? How so? If she misses, you still have 20-23 frames before she can get out another aerial, which is more than enough for most characters to punish her. If she hits a shield with fair while rising, the opponent has frame advantage, and if they have a decent usmash/upB/jump and instant aerial/grab they can punish her before she can throw out another aerial (namely nair), so it's not like this makes her fair too safe against shields, either. If you're in a direct aerial battle, it's even possible to trade hits with the fair, which usually ends up being better for sheik's opponent than for her. The only other thing I can think of that makes the move particularly "safe" is that you can hit someone out of their airdodge fairly easily if they try to AD it, but it could always do that easily, so I'm really not seeing this at all.

4x fair walls are not fun, nor is the textbook dthrow-fair-fair combo at 0.

So... you're replacing 4x fair walls (which can be difficult to set up depending on the opponent) with 2442345435x uair frame traps (which basically just requires you have good timing and get the opponent high in the air). And the characters that were already very gimpable are still very gimpable. All you've done is relieved a few characters from getting gimped quite so bad and instead have caused every character with a poor hitbox below them to be condemned to getting uair'd to death.

As for the "textbook" dthrow -> fair -> fair combo at 0, well, what do you expect? Every character has "textbook" combos at low percents, which expand into more creative strings and combos after the initial couple hits. You act like sheik having a "textbook" combo is a trait all her own and that it's a bad thing. No. It isn't. Characters need these guaranteed combos. Without guaranteed combos the more creative combos fall apart and we're left with vbrawl all over again. You seem to be complaining because it's two guaranteed hits out of a dthrow, instead of just one. It only does a little more than 30% and it only works if you get a grab from zero or very close to it!

As far as uair, it has an angle of 70. DI will always prevent ridiculous juggles given her lack of aerial mobility when already in the air. It's an overall nerf to Sheik. She can juggle and build damage better by keeping foes above her (but not sending them half a stage's length in the process), but she can still gimp with well placed fairs. You just can't afford to be mindless with Fairs, which I firmly believe to be a problem with her right now.

That's nice. You forgot about the part where if they don't AD the uair that you're pretty high in the air already, so sheik will have time to land and then rejump for another uair frame trap, and if they do AD, sheik is now falling when she performs the second uair and will land shortly afterward, allowing her to once again rejump for continued frame traps.

Sheik is fine the way she is. She doesn't need the uair speedup and she most certainly doesn't need her fair to be returned to vbrawl speed.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Leaf, you haven't actually played with the uair speed up enough and were annoyed about your usage of Fair killing you because you were too used to what you had. I urge you to try it more before actually saying these things. 70, DI'd is a lot of horizontal KB. Fair, spammed, is silly. It was already fast enough and was nigh unavoiable to avoid eating another.

She doesn't even need the dthrow-fair-fair combo to do damage off it. Believe me in that she can play without the Fair speed up and just work with the increased power we gave it.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

wait, fair speed up? uair speed up?

WHEN DID THIS HAPPEN!?!?

 

[GHNeko]

Fair speed up was a long time ago. Uair isnt in an official build IIRC.

I think it might of been in 4.0 or even 3.3

 

[SymphonicSage12]

oh...

7-21 build is getting old..

 

[weinzey]

+1 for sheik's fair being left the way it is

 

[goodoldganon]

Woah, big discussion I missed last night. A two parter I see. Dealing with multi-hit moves and sheik's u-air/f-air changes. From what I understand:

Make multi hit moves link better people:

• Single hit smashes do all the damage up front and don't have to screw around with the multi-hit.
• Are too unreliable
• The advantages of the move don't out weigh the negatives

Am I missing anything major?

Leave most multi hit moves alone people:

• Multi hit smash attacks punish spot dodges better and do more shield damage/poking
• Most of these characters have other strengths they SHOULD be relying on instead of buffing moves they don't need.
• We are taking away tech skill from the game, something this game needs. It's too E-Z mode.

Am I missing anything major?

I tend to agree with the people that want to leave most of the multi hit moves alone. Their arguments hold more weight with how I feel. The big one is point number two. Sheik should be gimping, not relying on the f-smash for a kill. Same goes for Sonic. Sure it sucks to be cursed with a mediocre move, but that's how the cookie crumbles. Yes there are a few exceptions to the rule, but most multi-hit moves need to be re-evaluated. Most were unnecessary buffs to good characters.

On the topic of Sheik's aerial changes I have to side with Leaf as well. I'm not going to repeat what he said, the only thing I'm going to say is I hate the whole 'too good category'. We have had one character with one more that was 'too good' and that was Marth's dancing blade. It built damage well, killed well, was tough to punish, and was absurdly quick.

Sheik's f-air isn't nearly in the same ball park of 'too good.' Just because a character has a reliable move doesn't mean it needs to be nerfed. Ike uses his jab combo ALL the time. Let's nerf that move cause it is too good. It's a silly argument. I repeat, there is nothing wrong with characters having good, go to moves. Sheik is built as a gimp character who horizontally carries her opponents and the f-air change does just that. You will be removing a big part of her game and trading it for something else she doesn't need or really want.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Woah, big discussion I missed last night. A two parter I see. Dealing with multi-hit moves and sheik's u-air/f-air changes. From what I understand:

Make multi hit moves link better people:

• Single hit smashes do all the damage up front and don't have to screw around with the multi-hit.
• Are too unreliable
• The advantages of the move don't out weigh the negatives

Am I missing anything major?

Leave most multi hit moves alone people:

• Multi hit smash attacks punish spot dodges better and do more shield damage/poking
• Most of these characters have other strengths they SHOULD be relying on instead of buffing moves they don't need.
• We are taking away tech skill from the game, something this game needs. It's too E-Z mode.

Am I missing anything major?

I tend to agree with the people that want to leave most of the multi hit moves alone. Their arguments hold more weight with how I feel. The big one is point number two. Sheik should be gimping, not relying on the f-smash for a kill. Same goes for Sonic. Sure it sucks to be cursed with a mediocre move, but that's how the cookie crumbles. Yes there are a few exceptions to the rule, but most multi-hit moves need to be re-evaluated. Most were unnecessary buffs to good characters.

On the topic of Sheik's aerial changes I have to side with Leaf as well. I'm not going to repeat what he said, the only thing I'm going to say is I hate the whole 'too good category'. We have had one character with one more that was 'too good' and that was Marth's dancing blade. It built damage well, killed well, was tough to punish, and was absurdly quick.

Sheik's f-air isn't nearly in the same ball park of 'too good.' Just because a character has a reliable move doesn't mean it needs to be nerfed. Ike uses his jab combo ALL the time. Let's nerf that move cause it is too good. It's a silly argument. I repeat, there is nothing wrong with characters having good, go to moves. Sheik is built as a gimp character who horizontally carries her opponents and the f-air change does just that. You will be removing a big part of her game and trading it for something else she doesn't need or really want.

HOLY ****, GoG, I love you. XD

But seriously, I agree with all of this. don't make her fair worse and make her side smash better. That's like taking salad away from a vegetarian, and then giving them a lifetime supply of bacon.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Sheik plays like 90% Fair right now. It's way too good... for her. Just play around the with the switch for a public build and see where it goes from there.

As far as Sheik's Fsmash, it's a fallback. It's not a move you can just throw out because of how unsafe it is compared to other moves she can do. I do want to nerf KB somewhat, but the move I want to keep largely the same. It wasn't good before for a crapload of reasons, and it's still limited now because of the animation being bad. It's perfectly punishable. As much as people may say the KB is the antipode of Sheik, the Fsmash movements themselves are moreso.

 

[goodoldganon]

I've never been one to decline testing something so I'll give Sheik's changes more testing today or tomorrow. It should go in a nightly for sure. My post is my initial reaction to the change. I've been wrong about changes before though...

 

[GHNeko]

It's onstage utility is something that shiek could use as I have no issue with fair on stage, but the move off stage/in air is ********. No amount of DI/SDI you do helps you against Shiek's fair offstage/in-air. The move BKB/KBK/Speed/Angle all tie in perfectly with Shiek's grav/jump/reach values and coupled with tether edgeguarding, Fair can argueably be placed within the "too good" category. :/

 

[JCaesar]

I agree with everything GoG said. I'm not necessarily against testing the Sheik aerial changes in a nightly build but I still think it is an undesirable change to her style. And I don't think multihit moves should be completely infeasible to SDI out of (they should be difficult though). I've never once complained about how easy it is to SDI out of ROB's dsmash (and it is quite easy, it only takes one or two stick movements).

Edit: Maybe we could increase the BKB of fair a little instead, so it doesn't combo into itself so well at low %s but still allows some form of follow-up.

 

[goodoldganon]

Ya, SDI out of multi hit moves is perfectly fine. Moves like Zelda's smashes, which didn't even work sometimes with NO DI, were the ones I was ok with. But I'd still like to test them more and polish them. Make sure it takes at least one or two SDI.

 

[JCaesar]

Zelda's smashes are kind of a special case since you could randomly fall out of them. They're fine how they are now since I doubt there's a better option for them.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

I guess I'm okay with testing out the changes.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brzSqXqwZjg

Only you can stop Zelda Fsmash escapes.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Sonic's upsmash has simliar issues if you hit with the opening hit (they can hold behind you and get out before the last hi, no SDI required). Pit's uair also takes...one tap to escape at any point during the move. It's these things that bug me. These moves have A LOT of hits and yet are still so easily DI'd out of (even easier than Rob and Pikachu's d-smashes btw)

For moves that hit in rapid succesion (i.e, Rob's d-smash) I kinda want them to be REQUIRED to SDI at least twice to actually get out, considering just how large of a window they have to pull that off in (not to mention that you can SDI with both the control stick and the c-stick for double speed SDIs <_<)

For things like Shiek's f-smash or Pit's upsmash, that only hit a few times, it should depend more on how well spaced it was. A poorly spaced attack would be escapable with just normal DI, but a properly spaced one would connect properly (barring SDI of course. SDI is allowed to break anything it wants )

imo if a move fails to fit this, it should simply be fixed. You say that it would make the move EZ status as it would be harder to escape, but couldn't you also say that their current forms are already EZ status for the opponent? The opponent who is ESCAPING A MOVE THAT ALREADY HIT THEM should have to do some work don't you think?

 

[Blank Mauser]

^^Sonic's upsmash has simliar issues if you hit with the opening hit (they can hold behind you and get out before the last hi, no SDI required). Pit's uair also takes...one tap to escape at any point during the move. It's these things that bug me. These moves have A LOT of hits and yet are still so easily DI'd out of (even easier than Rob and Pikachu's d-smashes btw)

For moves that hit in rapid succesion (i.e, Rob's d-smash) I kinda want them to be REQUIRED to SDI at least twice to actually get out, considering just how large of a window they have to pull that off in (not to mention that you can SDI with both the control stick and the c-stick for double speed SDIs <_<)

For things like Shiek's f-smash or Pit's upsmash, that only hit a few times, it should depend more on how well spaced it was. A poorly spaced attack would be escapable with just normal DI, but a properly spaced one would connect properly (barring SDI of course. SDI is allowed to break anything it wants )

imo if a move fails to fit this, it should simply be fixed. You say that it would make the move EZ status as it would be harder to escape, but couldn't you also say that their current forms are already EZ status for the opponent? The opponent who is ESCAPING A MOVE THAT ALREADY HIT THEM should have to do some work don't you think?

I agree with DarkSonic completely. How easy it is to escape the move should be dependant on how well its spaced etc. Another idea was that we could make the window for SDI small at the start, but normalizes as the move goes on. It could even be the opposite. Once you've been hit by the move or even somehow jumped into the later parts then you've missed your chance. I feel that moves really should be able to connect unless whether they connect fully or not its still a good move. Pikachu and ROB's Dsmashes for example are still good moves with great utility even if they're SDI'd because of their speed and tendency to send at low angles. Other smashes like Sonic's not so much.

It is not a matter of making the game EZ overall. It is who we want to make it EZ on. Do we want to fully punish someone for getting hit by clean smashes or not? I say its not too far a stretch.

 

[weinzey]

the sheik uair change should put into a test-gct on the sheik boards imo, just like marth mains test their changes. nightlies come out too infrequently to leave a change in that completely changes a character's metagame just for testing; and going back to the official build in order to play and use nightlies just to test wont work out either, considering the official is really old by now.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Someone needs to release a test build. Like, as soon as possible.