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Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

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Jiangjunizzy

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^^ Although thats true, some characters have stronger attacks that are un-punishable on shield block. Missing is another story which you pointed out above. But because Sheik gets punished for Hitting a shield with her F-smash, why make it so that when it actually does connect, you can mash out of it?
that's just how some moves work, and just how some characters are meant to work. you can't compare sheik to ganon. sheik has to be more wary of attacking a shield because her attacks are weak (but quick), but if ganon hits a shield, you can bet he'll have a bit of an advantage because his attacks are strong (but slow).

and back to her fsmash... you can use certain gimmicks of an attack to your advantage, if someone can smash-DI out of it.. then you compensate. you don't go for the first hit of sheik's fsmash, you go for the second; you space it better; you do whatever you can to make your tools work to your advantage. suddenly a move that was deemed useless/unreliable has now become a new layer to your game.

neko i don't understand your post (and quite frankly many of your posts) at all. can you keep the 4chan/lolcat speak out of this thread?
 

colored blind

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...what...

...w-what is this..

...i dont even...

This statement simply BAFFLES me in a game which have nearly complete control over and can practically change any move to go from what it was to a barrel of ****.
For some reason, I think you misunderstood my post, because your response doesn't make much sense.
 

Yingyay

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that's just how some moves work, and just how some characters are meant to work. you can't compare sheik to ganon. sheik has to be more wary of attacking a shield because her attacks are weak (but quick), but if ganon hits a shield, you can bet he'll have a bit of an advantage because his attacks are strong (but slow).

and back to her fsmash... you can use certain gimmicks of an attack to your advantage, if someone can smash-DI out of it.. then you compensate. you don't go for the first hit of sheik's fsmash, you go for the second; you space it better; you do whatever you can to make your tools work to your advantage. suddenly a move that was deemed useless/unreliable has now become a new layer to your game.

neko i don't understand your post (and quite frankly many of your posts) at all. can you keep the 4chan/lolcat speak out of this thread?
OR I can just connect the attack in the first place and call it a day. I dont see no one complaining about not being able to SDI outta diddy's f-smash. Plus all those layers of game play you were talking about are completely unnecessary when I can just focus on connecting the attack in the first place. I dont think when sakurai or whoever was programming sheik they said "Hey lets make her f-smash have depth and make it so that the person you hit can fling themself out by ****** their analog stick." Plus there's a little bit of lag in between the first and second hit. So if the first hit misses and your opponent is paying attention, they're gonna block and punish you anyway.

Edit: Im not trying to belittle you or anything but this is comming from someone who's been using sheik for a couple of years.
 

iLink

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that's just how some moves work, and just how some characters are meant to work. you can't compare sheik to ganon. sheik has to be more wary of attacking a shield because her attacks are weak (but quick), but if ganon hits a shield, you can bet he'll have a bit of an advantage because his attacks are strong (but slow).

and back to her fsmash... you can use certain gimmicks of an attack to your advantage, if someone can smash-DI out of it.. then you compensate. you don't go for the first hit of sheik's fsmash, you go for the second; you space it better; you do whatever you can to make your tools work to your advantage. suddenly a move that was deemed useless/unreliable has now become a new layer to your game.

neko i don't understand your post (and quite frankly many of your posts) at all. can you keep the 4chan/lolcat speak out of this thread?
But with that logic, why did they make zelda's fsmash/usmash so you can't DI out of it? Sheik's fsmash isn't even very good to begin with imo.
 

JCaesar

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So were plenty other characters coughfalcoutiltcough
And that's getting toned down in the next release. And I kinda think Sheik's fsmash should be toned down a bit too. It went from garbage to one of her best kill moves, which I'm starting to think might be a bit overstepping our bounds. Make it not worthless, I agree, but I think we've gone a bit too far with the move as it stands.
 

JCaesar

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It got brought to our attention because of Sheik maybe, but these are things that needed to be fixed before the gold release anyway, so what difference does it make? I know sometimes people feel like we're "out to get" your mains, but really, we're trying to do what's best in the interest of Brawl+ as a whole.

Sheik is one of my mains and even I think her fsmash is a bit too good for her atm. Frankly Sheik shouldn't have that kind of kill power at her disposal so easily. She should have to work harder for straight up kills since her combo and gimping games are both insane. (not to mention, if you're willing to play Zelda as well, that is a strategic advantage which covers that weakness)
 

Finns7

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I agree with JC

And from earler I was simply stating her fsmash wasnt slow, I kno its punishable, hell you can side step out of the first hit but the move just doesnt feel right on sheik as it is now.

Oh and thank the heavens about the falco utilt change xD. Have you guys looked at zss's fsmash, the hitbox where the whip goes behind her, I think that should be changed, at 0 percent it seems to send you up too high, I see where you guys were going with this for combos but it should be tweaked, maybe make the defender have a little more percent.
 

Yingyay

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Well I hope in the future it connects better because I hated the fact that she had a smash attack that was practically useless because she either pushed them to far. More SDI should fix the problem I guess.
 

Finns7

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The old one was garbage, I want her to be viable and all (which she is) and have a fsmash but that one doesnt seem right to me, it could use a little tweakin maybe.
 

Skip2MaLoo

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I can shield grab her fsmash. leave it alone. just use falcon, get past her high priority moves and needles, di-cg's/tech chase @ low percents, and pray she uses fsmash for some reason, then grab>death her ***.
 

Yingyay

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I can shield grab her fsmash. leave it alone. just use falcon, get past her high priority moves and needles, di-cg's/tech chase @ low percents, and pray she uses fsmash for some reason, then grab>death her ***.
^^^ Agreed.

But since Sheik is a problem lets change it >_>. Nobody really uses her so it wont hurt nobody >_> Lets make her smash attack escapable so that the people who get caught by it dont have to worry bout it >_>
 

SymphonicSage12

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^^^ Agreed.

But since Sheik is a problem lets change it >_>. Nobody really uses her so it wont hurt nobody >_> Lets make her smash attack escapable so that the people who get caught by it dont have to worry bout it >_>
WE gotz some major sheik hatin' goin on.


Nerf it so it's so WTFBBQ, but don't make it useless again. PLEASE.

and I use her. Way to stereotype.
 

Yingyay

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Works both ways
Well if you initiate an attack, why do you have to worry about someone escaping it? And why is this being brought up now ho? Just wondering?

Note: Im not trying to be mean or a douche I just want some answers to clarify some things.

@SymphonicSage: I was being sarcastic yo
 

GHNeko

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Or you know, you could give the first hit of Fsmash more shield stun so you can't shield grab it, but still nerf the other aspects of the move. :V

V:
 

Alphatron

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If somebody shield grabs fsmash, then you deserve it. Most of Sheik's moves, dair aside, aren't very punishable anyway...kinda like Meta Knight...
 

RyokoYaksa

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Sheik's Fsmash has several weakpoints in its current form without having to worry about it being escaped.

The actual launch of the attack is very slow, and thus easily DI'd on reaction. It may be effective at meh-ish levels of play because people don't DI it properly but as you play better people it gets exponentially less effective as it's survival DI'd more and more. Sheik has almost no moves that you don't DI this way. The KB really isn't that strong unless you DI poorly, but that can be said of any move, and the power it has currently is rather average.

The damage of the move is low so shield stun is low, and the lag of the move is high. It's extremely shieldgrabbable or Usmashed by anyone as a result, which is an uncommon property among killing Fsmashes. Sheik does half the work for you by kicking into you as she Fsmashes. If she does it right on top of you, the shield might be pushed in an opposite direction, but Fsmash is a silly move to use in that case. Hint: don't try to shield grab the first kick. There's plenty of time to do that on the second kick.

The move isn't really that quick, and is *not* comboable. As effective as its KB might be from a relative standpoint, it's not something you can really take advantage of that often without the risk of being punished because shielding is extremely effective against it, much moreso than any other move she has. Spamming the move just gets Sheik killed and you'd be stupid not to be able to take advantage of an Fsmash spamming Sheik.

It doesn't need adjusting other than minor tweaks of the second kick. It doesn't need the extra damage, so KB will be adjusted to be just slightly weaker than it is right now.

Jiang, spacing the move just to hit the second kick is the biggest "not worth it" I've ever heard of unless they were shield broken and you felt like being fancy.
 

CountKaiser

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Or you know, you could give the first hit of Fsmash more shield stun so you can't shield grab it, but still nerf the other aspects of the move. :V

V:
That involves increasing the damage of the first hit.

From what I can tell, shieldstun =(2 * (damage/3)) + 3.5, where damage/3 is vBrawl shieldstun.
 

GHNeko

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Exactly. And you'd reduce the damage on the second hit. to keep the move hitting the same damage total.

And of course KB compensation.

tbh, I dont think that shiek fsmash should be automatic, but it should be somewhat hard to get out of with DI.
 

RyokoYaksa

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You can't DI out of single hit sending Smashes, and you have less time to DI their launch those moves like Sheik's Fsmash.

Why is it a problem for moves like these to be inescapable when they have so many disadvantages compared to good single hit kill moves that send with the same power even without considering escapability? Just block the **** thing.
 

Strong Badam

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apparently if you block it it's nonpunishable
i mean who ever thought of an attack that couldn't be punished, let alone one that can be punished unless you shield it.

never happens in this game. ever. sheik fsmash broken fix it guyz
 

Thunderhorse+

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And that's getting toned down in the next release.
That's...actually a relief to hear. I hope it's still at least useful after the nerf, and I know leafgreen put alot of time in it to calculate exactly how much of a speed-up was necessary, but in its current state, it felt really ridiculous (kind of like Squirtle's...get on that **** guys! XD). I never argued against it though as leafgreen claimed that 2x was the exact speed up necessary to combo off of it with anything other than another utilt, and I don't want to lose that aspect of it.

I'm willing to try out the nerf, and I hope it still works as a good comboing move while not being a spammable one.
 

RyokoYaksa

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Fun fact about Zelda's smashes... they don't clash. She has to completely outrange the opponent's attack for them to work without leading into lame 1-damage trades. You can spot dodge the Fsmash hit frames or jump over its range since she can't angle it. It's a good smash but even then it's not a move to spam.
 

Yingyay

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You can't DI out of single hit sending Smashes, and you have less time to DI their launch those moves like Sheik's Fsmash.

Why is it a problem for moves like these to be inescapable when they have so many disadvantages compared to good single hit kill moves that send with the same power even without considering escapability? Just block the **** thing.
Nah that'd be too easy. Why block when we can just nerf the thing and make it useless again.

never happens in this game. ever. sheik fsmash broken fix it guyz
Do you use sheik at all? Have you ever played one either? If you have then you'd know that you can block the thing and punish her.
 

Strong Badam

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due to it's lack of mobility (unlike spammable aerials) it's easy to outspace and punish spammed fsmashes if you don't suck.

yingyay: I was being sarcastic. I heard that it was impossible to shieldgrab before they can get away if you shield it (in this thread or somewhere else, IDK), but w/e. main thing is that fsmash isn't broken. I do use Sheik sometimes, though.
 

Yingyay

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due to it's lack of mobility (unlike spammable aerials) it's easy to outspace and punish spammed fsmashes if you don't suck.

yingyay: I was being sarcastic. I heard that it was impossible to shieldgrab before they can get away if you shield it (in this thread or somewhere else, IDK), but w/e. main thing is that fsmash isn't broken. I do use Sheik sometimes, though.
My sarcasm meter is broken then -_- I apologize.
 

leafgreen386

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As someone who plays sheik fairly regularly, I don't think sheik really needs the fsmash buff at all. Even if it is true that it can be shieldgrabbed easily, that doesn't change the fact that it is now one of her most reliable kill moves, which goes almost entirely against her character. The first kick may not be lightning, but it's certainly fast enough to catch someone in their lag as a punishing move, proceeding into the second to kill them (assuming they had already hit killing percents). It is not a hard move to land, no matter how "awkward" some people will say it is, and it seems too much like a cop-out at times when you should have taken the chance to get a gimp earlier, but instead are rewarded with a kill anyway, even though you screwed up and let your foe live to 130%+. It's not meant to be just thrown out there, but it gets the job done as a reliable punisher that kills. It's not broken (I'm well aware that it won't KO until ~130% with good DI), but it acts as a crutch for when she fails at doing her job, which is gimping people before they hit ridiculous percents.

Though after what some other members of the WBR want to do with her fair and uair, this has kinda hit the back burner for me while arguing about something considerably more gamechanging. Some of you may have seen my arguments with ryoko in the irc about her fair speedup and how ryoko would rather see the change applied to uair. While the fsmash makes killing for her easier if she fails her core game, this completely changes her core game - her combo structure, her stage preferences, and her gimp potential, which almost seems like it's trying to make the fsmash change justified, by changing the archetype of her game.

I suppose a little background is in need for why the fair change was initially put in place. The fair change was implemented after we had started to play around with increasing her fair's power, both as a way to further define her established character and to help a character which at the time was somewhat lacking. It was originally raised from 108 to 135 growth (its 9 damage, 0 base, and 30 degree angle were left alone), which proved too powerful, and borderline broken. So, instead, we opted to raise the fair's overall utility without raising its power too much. It was given 120 growth, a modest increase over the original, and had five frames cut off of its aerial endlag, which didn't affect the autocancel frame. This did several things, mostly revolving around rising fairs. First, it made it so that at low percents, if she attempted to do dthrow -> fair, she would be able to fair again before the opponent broke out of hitstun, as opposed to receiving a kick in the face from characters such as luigi simply because she landed her extremely low kb attack. Second, it gave her the ability to perform a FJ fair -> nair or bair (and then land on a platform immediately afterward) reliably on platform stages such as battlefield. This creates both frame traps (for techchasing situations) and bolsters her combo ability on platform stages, being able to fair -> nair, land, and continue her combo. The third effect was that it helped her gimping game by allowing her to act sooner when chasing people offstage with fairs. If you'll notice, this fair edit was done explicitly buffing her strengths, as opposed to improving her weaknesses.

Now that that's out of the way, here is her vbrawl frame data (brackets indicate the autocancel frame):

Forward Air
HIT: 5
END: 28 {14}
LAND: 15

Up Air
HIT: 4
END: 42 {29}
LAND: 30

The currently implemented fair edit causes the move to end on frame 23 instead of 28. The uair edit being discussed would cause the uair to end on frame 31 instead of 42 and autocancel frame 24 instead of frame 29. Note that the same amount of time that is taken off of the fair's aerial endlag (not landlag) is what is taken off of the uair's AC timing, with a much greater reduction in the uair's aerial endlag.

For those familiar with the current sheik (you'd better be if you're arguing about her, and the same goes for any character discussed in this thread), you would know that her current game revolves largely around comboing and gimping, usually putting her in a greatly disadvantaged situation if she doesn't get a gimp (unless she manages to land that fsmash you all have been talking about for the past page or so, that is). Comboing takes on a variety of forms, while gimps tend to come most often from fair (and often assisted by her chain edgehog). Her combos are largely horizontal, only occasionally taking the form of uair juggles, but usually making great use of her grab, ftilt, fair, nair, and bair, occasionally using dair as a mixup. Her combos are particularly noteworthy on platform stages, often being a mix of comboing and platform techchasing, with the platforms not only acting as a potential frame trap for her opponent, but also enabling her to do things like rising fj fair -> nair -> land immediately afterward and run off to continue the combo, as I mentioned earlier. This is her established character. It's the sheik that sheik has been since the very early plussery sets, and besides the introduction of the fsmash, she has largely been left alone.

Removing the frame speed change on fair and placing it on uair (frame 19, 2x speed) results in a juggle-happy sheik that now uses vertical combos/strings far more than ever precedented for her. Her gimps are less effective, so it's less worthwhile trying to gimp them from a combo. Her horizontal combos themselves are less effective, meaning it's harder to get them into a position you can gimp them in from a combo. Instead, her most damaging combos end up juggling her foes upward, which ultimately ends up in her playing the "airdodge game" with her opponents, where her uair ends long before the foe's AD does, and even if they AD, she still easily hits them with another uair before they land, putting them back into the air. Only characters with a good hitbox below them or some form of counter even have the means to escape it when properly set up. She could technically do this before against most characters, with the uair having 38 frames of lag, ending just before the shortest airdodge in the game of 39 frames, but she had to attack near the beginning of the AD (making it a very very "almost combo" in the first place, with the frame trap not even working at all on characters with particularly short ADs), and you had to be high enough in the air that you could finish the animation and throw out another before you land (not just autocancel... outright finish the animation, which happens 13 frames after it begins to AC). With the speedup applied, it finishes frame 31, giving plenty of room for error on every AD in the game, as well as giving her many more situations which she can set up this frame trap in, due to being able to execute it closer to the ground and still have enough time to get the second uair out.

If you hadn't noticed yet, sheik's entire strategy has just changed from something that at first seems like it's only taking away a little utility from one move and adding it to another. In fact, one of the main reasons for wanting this change is that it makes her fair gimps less effective and encourages more diversity in her moveset. No. That is not what this does. It actually causes less diversity in her moveset, by giving her a consistently good option after mid-percents against almost everyone, which outright destroys many characters.

Sure, she can still gimp with the fair/uair swap, but not as well. Sure, she can still use horizontal combos with the fair/uair swap, but not as well. Sure, she can still use platform stages with the fair/uair swap.......... but not anywhere fricking close to how fricking well she can use flat stages now. When you have a frame trap with that much room for error that is used to keep the foe in the air, sheik will do best on flat stages that keep maximum distance between the foe and safe ground.

It completely inverts her playstyle. With fair sped up, she loves platforms, horizontal combos, and gimps. With uair sped up instead, she loves flat stages, vertical combos, and simply keeping a helpless foe trapped in the air until she can kill them.
 

Yingyay

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Really Long Post.
-_- You went from saying something about the f-smash, then you went into aerials. Then you went back to her F-smash to talk about her juggles. We're talking about leaving the fsmash alone. If anything nerf the knockback of it. And from the time Sheik's f-smash was changed to now, nobody brought up anything about her aerials being changed. And even still, why are you bringing up the fact that her whole game revolves around gimps when we're trying to discuss why Sheik's new Fsmash should be removed?

Anyway the major problem that people are having now is the fact that they cant wriggle out of sheik's f-smash right? When you think about it you cant wriggle out of a couple of smashes. Why is sheik's a big problem?
 

CountKaiser

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Because she isn't supposed to rely on outright kills.

It's like infinite PKT1, it negates a character weakness to an extent.
 

Yingyay

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It was made to help his recovery. And if it wasn't, its definitely an added bonus.

ninja'd over9000nin
 
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