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[Rion]

Is it just me, or is there just some sort of weird thing going on?

It's like not being able to DI out of multi hit KO moves pisses the hell out of people even though there could be another Smash move that has the EXACT SAME KILLING POWER / DAMAGE except it's single hit, yet there are no complaints.

The only difference is, the multi hit ones just lasts longer because of the lag caused by multi hits... which ACTUALLY GIVES YOU TIME TO DI, MAKING THE ATTACK EVEN LESS EFFECTIVE ANYWAY, rather than get hit by single hit KO move which leaves less time to DI in some cases. So automatically, multi hit KO moves are already at a disadvantage because of how easy it is to DI on reaction to them upon connection.

I dunno. Maybe people just get frustrated by getting caught in multi hit moves because they're so used to escaping them by nature. When I see people getting caught in Zelda's USmash/FSmash... it's like, there's a huge rage of DI/controller smashing/seizures happening and they're so amazed that for once, they can't escape the **** thing like they used to.

It's almost ridiculous that it's just the norm for multi-hit KO moves to be even remotely escape-able when caught in in the first place. Who the hell wants a KO move that on hitting, is escape-able? What is a purpose of a KO move if it's escape-able? One shouldn't have to "hope" for a move to kill someone upon connection.

If you get caught in a multi hit KO move, there should be no escaping. If you get hit by the thing, you obviously should be punished for it because you got hit by the thing in the first place. The person doing the KO move shouldn't be penalized because of some silly design oversight.

That's just my opinion though.

Edit: Sorry for being late. ;x But this sort of thing is really starting to irritate me... seriously.

 

[Yingyay]

Is it just me, or is there just some sort of weird thing going on?

It's like not being able to DI out of multi hit KO moves pisses the hell out of people even though there could be another Smash move that has the EXACT SAME KILLING POWER / DAMAGE except it's single hit, yet there are no complaints.

The only difference is, the multi hit ones just lasts longer because of the lag caused by multi hits... which ACTUALLY GIVES YOU TIME TO DI, MAKING THE ATTACK EVEN LESS EFFECTIVE ANYWAY, rather than get hit by single hit KO move which leaves less time to DI in some cases. So automatically, multi hit KO moves are already at a disadvantage because of how easy it is to DI on reaction to them upon connection.

I dunno. Maybe people just get frustrated by getting caught in multi hit moves because they're so used to escaping them by nature. When I see people getting caught in Zelda's USmash/FSmash... it's like, there's a huge rage of DI/controller smashing/seizures happening and they're so amazed that for once, they can't escape the **** thing like they used to.

It's almost ridiculous that it's just the norm for multi-hit KO moves to be even remotely escape-able when caught in in the first place. Who the hell wants a KO move that on hitting, is escape-able? What is a purpose of a KO move if it's escape-able? One shouldn't have to "hope" for a move to kill someone upon connection.

If you get caught in a multi hit KO move, there should be no escaping. If you get hit by the thing, you obviously should be punished for it because you got hit by the thing in the first place. The person doing the KO move shouldn't be penalized because of some silly design oversight.

That's just my opinion though.

Edit: Sorry for being late. ;x But this sort of thing is really starting to irritate me... seriously.

OMF'in BBQ Thank you!

 

[GHNeko]

Or possibly we're trying to grant E-Z mode status to moves that dont fufill all the criteria that qualifies E-Z mode to the move?

Or maybe because a move's current status doesnt fit the metagame the character is built around? (See moves that dont fit with characters ie Jiggs with a Good Dsmash, Shiek with a reliable KO move , Snake with an uair juggle, Marth with a good recovery move, etc etc.)

Or maybe a move IS too hard to get out of and we want to tune that down a little to make it more reasonable?

Or maybe we should go over moves we buffed in the past ie relooking other moves due to recent advances in Brawl+ development?

<_>

idk, maybe I dont know anything anymore.

It's almost ridiculous that it's just the norm for multi-hit KO moves to be even remotely escape-able when caught in in the first place. Who the hell wants a KO move that on hitting, is escape-able? What is a purpose of a KO move if it's escape-able? One shouldn't have to "hope" for a move to kill someone upon connection.

If you get caught in a multi hit KO move, there should be no escaping. If you get hit by the thing, you obviously should be punished for it because you got hit by the thing in the first place. The person doing the KO move shouldn't be penalized because of some silly design oversight.

So we should make multi-hi KO moves single hit moves. Remove all the hitboxes except one so they can function exactly like normal hit KO moves because they obviously dont have inherent flaws and advantages built into what they are.

Because a multi-hit KO move...or better yet, moves in general dont deserve a flaw instilled in themeselves.

It's a flaw, an inherent weakness of multi-hit moves to be DI'd out of. To make multi-hit KO moves unescapable means they should just be transformed into single hit moves instead because they'd be the same thing.

 

[Yingyay]

Or possibly we're trying to grant E-Z mode status to moves that dont fufill all the criteria that qualifies E-Z mode to the move?

Or maybe because a move's current status doesnt fit the metagame the character is built around? (See moves that dont fit with characters ie Jiggs with a Good Dsmash, Shiek with a reliable KO move , Snake with an uair juggle, Marth with a good recovery move, etc etc.)

Or maybe a move IS too hard to get out of and we want to tune that down a little to make it more reasonable?

Or maybe we should go over moves we buffed in the past ie relooking other moves due to recent advances in Brawl+ development?

<_>

idk, maybe I dont know anything anymore.

So lets fix captain falcon's usmash then. How about Diddy's fsmash, or peaches dsmash? Or Pit's Fsmash/Usmash?

Because a multi-hit KO move...or better yet, moves in general dont deserve a flaw instilled in themeselves.

It's a flaw, an inherent weakness of multi-hit moves to be DI'd out of. To make multi-hit KO moves unescapable means they should just be transformed into single hit moves instead because they'd be the same thing.

Why should they have this weakness? How do you know it was intended? Zelda's smashes were changed from melee to brawl. In brawl hey connect better, if they were intended to not work why would they do this?

 

[Veril]

Multihit moves are multihit so that they can be escaped. Seriously, its not too complicated and it isn't a bad thing.

 

[Yingyay]

Multihit moves are multihit so that they can be escaped. Seriously, its not too complicated and it isn't a bad thing.

So you're in a close match, finals, $10000 on the line. You found a opening, you mult-hitting fsmash. You use it, they DI out of it. and punish your endlag. Not a bad thing.

 

[GHNeko]

So lets fix captain falcon's usmash then. How about Diddy's fsmash, or peaches dsmash? Or Pit's Fsmash/Usmash?



Why should they have this weakness? How do you know it was intended? Zelda's smashes were changed from melee to brawl. In brawl hey connect better, if they were intended to not work why would they do this?

Why shouldnt they NOT have this weakness? Moves/Tactics/Abilities/Characters should have ups and downs.

Moves that have weaknesses shouldnt have their weaknesses completely removed.

So you're in a close match, finals, $10000 on the line. You found a opening, you mult-hitting fsmash. You use it, they DI out of it. and punish your endlag. Not a bad thing.

No. It's not because they DI'd out of the move. They put effort into escaping the move. They reacted properly and DI'd properly. They were rewarded for their ability to react and outplaying you.

Yes. You just got out played. You took a chance. A gamble. And you lost. GGs.

That's competition for you.


If it was an EASY move to DI out of, then maybe it could warrent something though you should know better than to use a move that is easy to DI out of to kill someone. If it ISNT easy to DI out of, **** yea the guy who DI'd out of the move should deserve that win.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

So you're in a close match, finals, $10000 on the line. You found a opening, you mult-hitting fsmash. You use it, they DI out of it. and punish your endlag. Not a bad thing.

Should've used your dsmash instead

 

[Yingyay]

Why shouldnt they NOT have this weakness? Moves/Tactics/Abilities/Characters should have ups and downs.

Moves that have weaknesses shouldnt have their weaknesses completely removed.

There's a difference between moves that have weaknesses and moves that are incomplete. Awhile ago Bowser recieved a hitbox increase buff because one of his smashes or tilts didnt have a hitbox to cover the move animation. What would you call that? Is that a weakness or a incomplete move?

Should've used your dsmash instead

If f-smash had the range why would I use dsmash? Would you use fsmash as falco to hit a opponent further away? Or use dsmash, miss and get wrecked?

 

[GHNeko]

Okay? We're talking about multi-hit moves, not moves that didnt match their ****ing animation.

A: A move with properly fitting hitboxes that hit multiple times.
B: A move with an unfitting hitbox that hit once.

Two different scenarios.

 

[colored blind]

Leaf's post concerns me a lot more than the debate about the Fsmash. As said before, you shouldn't need a good killing move with Sheik (you have Zelda if you really need that), Fsmash hits rarely, and even when the second kick hits, you can DI so it doesn't kill early.

I, for one, like the sped up Fair. The idea of a juggling Sheik scares me. We already have Marth, ZSS, and a few other characters who have good juggle games, and they have a wealth of other moves to complement that. Sheik would have...well, basically just Uair. Not too many of her other moves are vertically focused.

Then again, that's what the nightlies are for, right? If you release it on a nightly, the worst that could happen is that people don't like it and it's changed back. I guess we could try it and see if we like it. Huh. If I knew anything about hex, I'd probably try it now.

Regardless of whether it's good or not, I'll sorely miss her rising Fair combos if the Uair frame adjustment is made. :/

 

[Yingyay]

Okay? We're talking about multi-hit moves, not moves that didnt match their ****ing animation.

A: A move with properly fitting hitboxes that hit multiple times.
B: A move with an unfitting hitbox that hit once.

Two different scenarios.

You brought up move weaknesses. So I simple brought up a weakness that you guys corrected.

Leaf's post concerns me a lot more than the debate about the Fsmash. As said before, you shouldn't need a good killing move with Sheik (you have Zelda if you really need that), Fsmash hits rarely, and even when the second kick hits, you can DI so it doesn't kill with relative ease.

I, for one, like the sped up Fair. The idea of a juggling Sheik scares me. We already have Marth, ZSS, and a few other characters who have good juggle games, and they have a wealth of other moves to complement that. Sheik would have...well, basically just Uair. Not too many of her other moves are vertically focused.

Then again, that's what the nightlies are for, right? If you release it on a nightly, the worst that could happen is that people don't like it and it's changed back. I guess we could try it and see if we like it. Huh. If I knew anything about hex, I'd probably try it now.

Regardless of whether it's good or not, I'll sorely miss her rising Fair combos. :/

With Zelda you sacrifice speed for power, and in a match that was probably more favorable to sheik, you either lost or equalized the matchup. Why is a move that doesnt even kill until high percents bothering people anyway? It's like complaining about metaknight's fsmash. It barely kills but because it doesnt hit you twice, it's perfectly fine.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

If f-smash had the range why would I use dsmash? Would you use fsmash as falco to hit a opponent further away? Or use dsmash, miss and get wrecked?

To be honest, I would use neither and use dashing usmash instead, since the tip of Falco's fsmash has negligible shield stun and can be punished, and hitting with the core of it would garner the same effects as using dsmash (if you can hit with the core fsmash and not get punished, you can hit with the dsmash and not get punished even less so than the fsmash due to faster cooldown).

But that's besides the point and I wasn't being 100% serious anyway.

To be on point, the multi-hitting moves come with the advantage of being able to hit through poorly timed spot dodges, which at least make up for the fact that they can be DI-ed out of. Single-hit moves will never do that without some serious mindgames/extremely poor timing of a spot dodge/shield release on the opponent's part/being Kirby's fsmash.

 

[Yingyay]

To be honest, I would use neither and use dashing usmash instead, since the tip of Falco's fsmash has negligible shield stun and can be punished, and hitting with the core of it would garner the same effects as using dsmash (if you can hit with the core fsmash and not get punished, you can hit with the dsmash and not get punished even less so than the fsmash due to faster cooldown).

But that's besides the point and I wasn't being 100% serious anyway.

To be on point, the multi-hitting moves come with the advantage of being able to hit through poorly timed spot dodges, which at least make up for the fact that they can be DI-ed out of. Single-hit moves will never do that without some serious mindgames/extremely poor timing of a spot dodge/shield release on the opponent's part/being Kirby's fsmash.

Single hitting smashes can do the same thing -_- Most of the time a spot-dodge will dodge both hits by accident.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

really long post

Enough about the darn Fsmash. I've been testing numbers to nerf the KB somewhat, but the fact remains that it's a very balanced move thanks to it being punishable.

Leaf, the Fair with the speedup is in the "way too good" category. She's bland with it because the move is now spammy and *too* safe in the air. 4x fair walls are not fun, nor is the textbook dthrow-fair-fair combo at 0.

As far as uair, it has an angle of 70. DI will always prevent ridiculous juggles given her lack of aerial mobility when already in the air. It's an overall nerf to Sheik. She can juggle and build damage better by keeping foes above her (but not sending them half a stage's length in the process), but she can still gimp with well placed fairs. You just can't afford to be mindless with Fairs, which I firmly believe to be a problem with her right now.
---
Neko, multi-hit moves have a weakness in that their launch takes a while to work, so they're easy to use survival DI on. Since they don't launch until the end, they are absolutely awful in trades if the last hit is not the traded blow, which is almost always. They are easily interrupted in teams. Also, if you don't hit the center of their body with the linking hit(s), the move will almost always miss since getting hit resets the target's position. Foes that attack with outstretched limbs such as DK/Bowser, or other long limbed characters are less vulnerable to these moves naturally, whereas a single hitting attack does not have any of these weaknesses. This is all without being escaped.

 

[GHNeko]

You brought up move weaknesses. So I simple brought up a weakness that you guys corrected.

They're considered different. An animation not properly matching up to its hitbox is considered an oversight where as multi-hit moves normally cant be considered that. :/

Neko, multi-hit moves have a weakness in that their launch takes a while to work, so they're easy to use survival DI on. Since they don't launch until the end, they are absolutely awful in trades if the last hit is not the traded blow, which is almost always. They are easily interrupted in teams. Also, if you don't hit the center of their body with the linking hit(s), the move will almost always miss since getting hit resets the target's position. Foes that attack with outstretched limbs such as DK/Bowser, or other long limbed characters are less vulnerable to these moves naturally, whereas a single hitting attack does not have any of these weaknesses. This is all without being escaped.

Not all multi-hit moves are like that.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Peach's Dsmash doesn't count.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Single hitting smashes can do the same thing -_- Most of the time a spot-dodge will dodge both hits by accident.

Barring Kirby's fsmash, which is expected since it is completely ridiculous in every other conceivable way anyway, I cannot think of a single one-hit smash attack that has a long enough lasting hitbox to allow it to hit through even the shortest of decently placed spot dodges (and I emphasize 'decently placed' since I'm sure someone will bring up some really slow smashes like Dedede's or Ike's fsmash, which is just extremely poor spot dodging before the hitbox even reaches you).

I guess IC's could count, but that's less a single one-hit smash attack than two one-hit smash attacks back to back.

 

[Yingyay]

They're considered different. An animation not properly matching up to its hitbox is considered an oversight where as multi-hit moves normally cant be considered that. :/




Not all multi-hit moves are like that.

Most mult-hit moves are in fact like that. I dont know many mult-hit moves where the strongest hit comes first.
Im going to sleep now. Nice debating with ya.

(It may have sounded like I was angry at yall. Well in my head it kinda did lol)

 

[thesage]

Could you try giving shiek's f-smash set knockback so it sets up for gimps well, but doesn't kill until very high percentages?

On multihit moves: Do people strongly dislike the changes to Ness' pk fire, yoyos, and fair? Without any changes the training mode computer set to stand (or w/e it's called in brawl) could get out of them...

 

[CountKaiser]

Barring Kirby's fsmash, which is expected since it is completely ridiculous in every other conceivable way anyway, I cannot think of a single one-hit smash attack that has a long enough lasting hitbox to allow it to hit through even the shortest of decently placed spot dodges (and I emphasize 'decently placed' since I'm sure someone will bring up some really slow smashes like Dedede's or Ike's fsmash, which is just extremely poor spot dodging before the hitbox even reaches you).

I guess IC's could count, but that's less a single one-hit smash attack than two one-hit smash attacks back to back.

G&W's fsmash, maybe?

It last 18 frames, there's a good chance it could hit someone out of a spotdodge, since most last 20 or so frames.

It's certainly better than Kirby fsmash, as that hitbox lasts only 10 frames.

 

[GHNeko]

Peach's Dsmash doesn't count.

Wario's Dair. Mario's dair. MK nado, Snake Nair, D3 Dair, Tlink up B, Peach dair, Old Fox Dair, and a few more Says Hi.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

There are plenty of ways to punish poorly timed spot dodges that don't involve using a multi-hit move on a hunch. Even those are punishable out of spot dodge depending on the move and the target's spot dodge.

Also, multi-hit moves that only need to hit once to really take a good effect aren't factored into this discussion. Sheik Dsmash, Peach Dsmash, MK Dsmash (yes it can double hit), etc. ZSS Usmash is escapable like hell but it's mostly safe on escape and still lifts them so it's not that big a deal.

-Aerials are worthless to mention because they use mobility. Many aerials link well under the basis of you using a certain aerial momentum to link the hits (ZSS Fair). They've always been a ***** to land and honestly no amount of SDI prevention could fix their success rate to that of a ground move.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Do people strongly dislike the changes to Ness' pk fire, yoyos, and fair?

I strongly dislike every aspect of Ness in general, changed and unchanged, with the exception of PSI Magnet.

Either that or I just dislike Ness+ mains .

j/k <3.

G&W's fsmash, maybe?

It last 18 frames, there's a good chance it could hit someone out of a spotdodge, since most last 20 or so frames.

It's certainly better than Kirby fsmash, as that hitbox lasts only 10 frames.

Touche. I've had that happen to me a few times, albeit on Wifi only, but it's not unreasonable to assume it wouldn't work in general.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Not all multi-hit moves are like that.

Actually, I can't think of a single multihit move that's not like that, except Peach's d-smash . All other multihits are terrible trades, easier to DI than their single hit counterparts, and don't fully connect if you're hitting an extended hurtbox rather than the center of the character.

So umm...is it really okay that you can just hold a direction to escape them even after all this ****?

@Thunderhorse-not many smashes will be hitting through spotdodges even the multihit ones. The only multihit smashes I can think of that are slow enough to hit people out of spotdodges reliably are Marth, Link, and maybe TL's d-smashes. Other multihit smashes only hit them out if they spotdodge REALLY early, to the point where you could also just time a single hit smash.

Oh...and let's not forget that sex kicks have all the benefits of a multihit move (long hitbox duration and a bit of priority) while also having none of the deficits <_<


I honestly could care less about things like Shiek or Pit's f-smashes, it's things like Sonic's upsmash and Pit's uair that bug me. Being to escape such long lasting moves with a single tap at any point during them makes them...frustrating to sa the least.

 

[CountKaiser]

On multihit moves: Do people strongly dislike the changes to Ness' pk fire, yoyos, and fair? Without any changes the training mode computer set to stand (or w/e it's called in brawl) could get out of them...

MOAR WINDBOXES LOLOLOL


In all seriousness, I figured out why fair was being dumb, and I can fix it right now. Ness's pk fire is a bit overdone, and I have a fix for the yoyos as well.

If no one is going to bite my head off, I'd be willing to give out my proposed changes to the fair and the yoyos. Shanus said that PK fire was already fixed, and from the stream, it looked fixed to me.

 

[GHNeko]

-Aerials are worthless to mention because they use mobility. Many aerials link well under the basis of you using a certain aerial momentum to link the hits (ZSS Fair). They've always been a ***** to land and honestly no amount of SDI prevention could fix their success rate to that of a ground move.

I was just going by what you told me. you null mentioned the barring of multi-hit move aerials.

Boozer Dsmash, Diddy usmash, Falcon usmash when he's not sliding all over the stage, Rob Dsmash would like to take you out for Fish and Chips.

These are the only ones I can think of though :/

 

[Dark Sonic]

I was just going by what you told me. you null mentioned the barring of multi-hit move aerials.

Boozer Dsmash, Diddy usmash, Falcon usmash when he's not sliding all over the stage, Rob Dsmash would like to take you out for Fish and Chips.

These are the only ones I can think of though :/

They all fail when you hit an extended hurtbox (though I have no idea why you'd even go for this in that situation ), are easy to DI, and are terrible on trade.

I still don't see where you're going with this <_<. Those fit everything Ryoko said. You also listed moves that actually work very well when you DO hit with them properly (hitting the center of their body).

 

[Thunderhorse+]

@Thunderhorse-not many smashes will be hitting through spotdodges even the multihit ones. The only multihit smashes I can think of that are slow enough to hit people out of spotdodges reliably are Marth, Link, and maybe TL's d-smashes. Other multihit smashes only hit them out if they spotdodge REALLY early, to the point where you could also just time a single hit smash.

Though technically they do hit more than once, for the purpose of this discussion, Marth's and Link's dsmashes aren't really what I had in mind, since they aren't designed to link into one another, and for all intents and purposes are single hit smashes. TL's you could argue for, but the front hit can be spot-dodged on reaction, and the back hit goes back to the problem of simply a poor spot dodge rather than the move actually lasting through the spot dodge. It's the same reason I exclude MK's/Zelda's dsmashes, even though they could eat through a spot dodge if you happened to be extremely close to them so that both hitboxes can reach you.

I am fairly sure, as just one example, that no one can ever spot dodge through Zelda's usmash. Ever.

 

[GHNeko]

They all fail when you hit an extended hurtbox (though I have no idea why you'd even go for this in that situation ), are easy to DI, and are terrible on trade.

I still don't see where you're going with this <_<. Those fit everything Ryoko said. You also listed moves that actually work very well when you DO hit with them properly (hitting the center of their body).

I've never heard of Boozers dsmash ever being easy to DI and it has the ability to pull in to, even against extended hitboxes.

The other ones I'm not completely sure with considering I dont use them well and I have done no research on the scope of their moves.

But I'm pretty **** sure boozer dsmash isnt a move that fits what Ryoko said. :/

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Eh, I've seen spot dodges end in between the passes of her Usmash and shielded through the second pass (Olimar, Falco). x.x

I'm sure that DDD can probably spot dodge the whole **** thing, but that's DDD.

TL's you could argue for, but the front hit can be spot-dodged on reaction,

Um... no.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Though technically they do hit more than once, for the purpose of this discussion, Marth's and Link's dsmashes aren't really what I had in mind, since they aren't designed to link into one another, and for all intents and purposes are single hit smashes. TL's you could argue for, but the front hit can be spot-dodged on reaction, and the back hit goes back to the problem of simply a poor spot dodge rather than the move actually lasting through the spot dodge. It's the same reason I exclude MK's/Zelda's dsmashes, even though they could eat through a spot dodge if you happened to be extremely close to them so that both hitboxes can reach you.

I am fairly sure, as just one example, that no one can ever spot dodge through Zelda's usmash. Ever.

Uh...If I'm trying to hit them through a spotdodge, then obviously I'd be close enough to have both hitboxes be able to reach them. Those d-smashes are terribly unsafe on block to start with, so I'm not taking any additional risks by putting myself closer when doing them.
And Zelda's d-smash is not a multihit move <_<. If you hit with one hitbox the others can't hit them (which defines what is a "multihit" move). Same reason that Sonic's d-smash is not a multihit move (shield one hit and you get to walk through the rest of it )

Anyway, I was just pointing out that most multihit smashes actually don't hit through spotdodges any more efficiently than single hit smashes (as most multihit smashes are only 2-3 hits )

I've never heard of Boozers dsmash ever being easy to DI and it has the ability to pull in to, even against extended hitboxes.

The other ones I'm not completely sure with considering I dont use them well and I have done no research on the scope of their moves.

But I'm pretty **** sure boozer dsmash isnt a move that fits what Ryoko said. :/

Read more carefully <_<

He said easy to DI, not easy to DI out of.

Big difference. What that means is that the opponent will pretty much always get the optimal survival DI on the attack, because it just takes so long to reach the good hitbox. There's virtually no chance of them being suprised by the final hit, so you don't get that same opportunity for bad DI like you would with a single hit attack

As for the pull you in part to deal with extended hurtboxes...I've gotten hit by one of the middle hits while doing Sonic's f-tilt and not been hit by the rest (next hit missed and shielded the hit after <_<)

Anyway, the point still stands that the vast majority of multihit moves have the weaknesses that Ryoko listed, in ADDITION to being escapable. That's why I think that escaping those moves SHOULD BE HARD.

 

[thesage]

MOAR WINDBOXES LOLOLOL


In all seriousness, I figured out why fair was being dumb, and I can fix it right now. Ness's pk fire is a bit overdone, and I have a fix for the yoyos as well.

If no one is going to bite my head off, I'd be willing to give out my proposed changes to the fair and the yoyos. Shanus said that PK fire was already fixed, and from the stream, it looked fixed to me.

Describe said changes/pm me the gct.

Pk fire could be di'd out of by the time it dealt 17%. It could also be di'd upwards do prevent Ness from linking into another pk fire/grab but ensure that he could follow up with fair. I had a Marth di out of it really early though, but the di is away from Ness so Ness can't get punished anymore for landing the move lol.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Uh...If I'm trying to hit them through a spotdodge, then obviously I'd be close enough to have both hitboxes be able to reach them. Those d-smashes are terribly unsafe on block to start with, so I'm not taking any additional risks by putting myself closer when doing them.
And Zelda's d-smash is not a multihit move <_<. If you hit with one hitbox the others can't hit them (which defines what is a "multihit" move). Same reason that Sonic's d-smash is not a multihit move (shield one hit and you get to walk through the rest of it )

Anyway, I was just pointing out that most multihit smashes actually don't hit through spotdodges any more efficiently than single hit smashes (as most multihit smashes are only 2-3 hits )

I've never been hit by both ends of any of the human swordies' dsmashes even if they're at point blank range (with the exception of TL of course). Truthfully, it'd be me doing it because I'm attempting to pick up Marth as a secondary (and I screw around with Link more times than I should) and I'm just that horrible enough of a Marth (/Link) player to dsmash at point blank range <_<. But just because it never happened to me personally doesn't mean it's not possible. I'll test these out sometime to see what happens.

However, I have, on multiple occasions, been hit by both ends of Zelda's dsmash when dreadfully up close. More times than I'm proud of actually. So I know that is definitely within the realm of possibility.

Point taken though, even if I still don't 100% agree .

Um... no.

Well I suppose my wording was poor. I don't mean like "oh, I can see him winding up, let's spot dodge", but more like "well I'm within dsmash distance of TL. Better spot dodge *spot dodges and evades TL's dsmash*. But that was simply poor terminology on my part, so yeah, you're right.

What's the proper terminology for that though...? Oh right, bad TL players .

 

[GHNeko]

Read more carefully <_<

He said easy to DI, not easy to DI out of.

Big difference. What that means is that the opponent will pretty much always get the optimal survival DI on the attack, because it just takes so long to reach the good hitbox. There's virtually no chance of them being suprised by the final hit, so you don't get that same opportunity for bad DI like you would with a single hit attack

As for the pull you in part to deal with extended hurtboxes...I've gotten hit by one of the middle hits while doing Sonic's f-tilt and not been hit by the rest (next hit missed and shielded the hit after <_<)

Anyway, the point still stands that the vast majority of multihit moves have the weaknesses that Ryoko listed, in ADDITION to being escapable. That's why I think that escaping those moves SHOULD BE HARD.

Well, I agree they should be hard. I just dont think they should be unescapable. :V

Of which shiek's fsmash pretty much is as it was changed to link waay better.

Also, late morning johns on failure to read small phrases properly. My bad.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I've never been hit by both ends of any of the human swordies' dsmashes even if they're at point blank range (with the exception of TL of course)

If you hit their shield the second hit can get them

Truthfully, it'd be me doing it because I'm attempting to pick up Marth as a secondary (and I screw around with Link more times than I should) and I'm just that horrible enough of a Marth (/Link) player to dsmash at point blank range <_<. But just because it never happened to me personally doesn't mean it's not possible. I'll test these out sometime to see what happens.

You don't get hit by both hits. EVER. However, if they spotdodge the first hit at point blank range, they get hit by the second hit as they're coming out of the spotdodge.

However, I have, on multiple occasions, been hit by both ends of Zelda's dsmash when dreadfully up close. More times than I'm proud of actually. So I know that is definitely within the realm of possibility.

Been hit by both of them? As in if you were to shield one hit another would actually hit your shield? (that's how you can easily test to see if a move is multihit or just a sex kick. Link's up B is a fine exampl)

Point taken though, even if I still don't 100% agree .

kay

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Zelda's Dsmash does have reversible KB. If you're in really, really close to her, the first hit of Dsmash it can send you backward into the second hit.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Been hit by both of them? As in if you were to shield one hit another would actually hit your shield?

No, I mean I've been hit, physically and was damaged by, the front end of Zelda's dsmash, and then was immediately hit away and was damaged by the other end of Zelda's dsmash.

No shield involved.

Multiple times.

More than I want to admit.

 

[Pyrostormer]

Multihit moves are escapable in exchange for having a better chance of landing in the first place. Moves that last longer will obviously have a better chance of hitting.

 

[CountKaiser]

Well then what about sex kicks?