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[GHNeko]

I don't main Lucas, but I occasionally play Lucas.

You guys got rid of old Ness's fair because "it was too spammy". Need I say more?

We got rid of Fair because it was Overpowered and reudced Ness to nothing more than a psychic child version of Marth.

I could pick up Ness and **** friends with fair spam and I dont even use Ness for friendlies. I use him for sandbagging.

 

[[TSON]]

We got rid of Fair because it was Overpowered and reudced Ness to nothing more than a psychic child version of Marth.

I could pick up Ness and **** friends with fair spam and I dont even use Ness for friendlies. I use him for sandbagging.

spammy and not easily punishable aerial = OP

hmm where have I seen a safe and spammy aerial before

 

[GHNeko]

There was more than the fact it was spammy and not punishable.

The hitbox was increased by 85% (IIRC) and had set KB as well meaning it could combo into itself and other moves at any percent.

There were other things but I cant remember them off the top of my head. No other aerials have a hitbox that large or have set KB pretty much allowing for unlimitied combos only limited by ground and how many jumps you have left. .__.

 

[[TSON]]

oh ok

well my point is you should give zair a chance and see what it does to his metagame; needed or not. ;B

 

[GHNeko]

I'd rather not even cross the line of adding in attacks. Period.

Once you do something, it makes it alot easier to do it again...and again. <_>

Not arguing slippery slope, but Ill be god ****ed I dont want to deal with people wanting to add attacks to move a through z.

Now, see, if you want to use PSA to add hitboxes to attacks that already exist to further define them, I'd go along with that.

Like giving giving DK Fsmash more than one large hitbox or something.

 

[Pyrostormer]

but i mean

the animation is already there

there's just no hitbox for some stupid reason

i can guarantee you you won't have yoshi mains asking for some sort of tongue tether with their Z.

 

[GHNeko]

And?

It's not an attack. :V

It's purely recovery. Leave it at that.

 

[Pyrostormer]

make lucas's fair disjointed and increase it's range a bit and i'd be fine with that

there's no reason to do that when you could just give him the zair hitbox though

i mean really it's pretty silly when there's near unanimous support to at least try it out

 

[GHNeko]

I just dont agree with the concept of adding in brand new attacks.

Also, why are we buffing a character weakness?

When Lucas' range/approach prove to be a real bad hindrance, then we'll do something.

Until then, he's legit enough. He wont win tourneys alone, but then again, an ideal Brawl+ will have a roster where a huge majority of the roster wont be able to win alone because Character CPs and Stage CPs become that much more important.

I dont even think MK can win alone in a tourney of equal, high skill players. .__.

EDIT: Ugh, my wording and typing is falling to ****. 4 AM johns people. I'm going to bed.

 

[Pyrostormer]

When Lucas' range/approach prove to be a real bad hindrance, then we'll do something.

They already are. That's what I'm trying to tell you.

EVERY character can simply jump back and punish Lucas whenever he tries to approach because it's so one dimensional. He'll try to zoom past you with a Nair and hope he hits so he can combo. It's like if Falcon lost his entire grab game, and his Nair only hit you when his body touched you. Oh, and you can't combo nearly as well either. And you can't combo into kill moves. Etc etc.

Lucas is only viable in the minds of scrubs, because that's the only place he's worth a ****. I'm trying my best to make him competitive by changing one simple thing that will fix the major weakness that is stopping him from being viable, but you just put this huge blanket statement that "No character will ever get any extra attack for any reason ever no matter what." when you should be looking at it on a conditional basis.

 

[HolyNightmare]

Sorry for interrupting, I just wanted to say this.

I dont like how ROB got nerfed in the lastest version, his dash attack(got severly nerfed) doesnt connect to upsmash anymore. The dthrow has been buffed(Alot of knockback) disabling upair combos pass 30%, hell the dthrow is a now a killing move and for some reason upthow kill faster now I guess to compensate from the nerfs which is useless. Really idiotic changes, this makes me want not to play ROB in Brawl+ anymore. ROB just lost all his combos(He never had much to begin with).

 

[5ive]

Sorry to get off topic as well, but hi Holy. Are you going to T10 or Dimmy's on Sunday?

and also:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZBImJv8HbQ&fmt=22

You're in at the end. You should of saved your replays D:

 

[timothyung]

About Lucas' zair hitbox:
If you don't add it in, there isn't a problem. If you add it in, it isn't a problem. And you can even nerf one of his moves slightly. So it's just if people want it or not

 

[HolyNightmare]

Sorry to get off topic as well, but hi Holy. Are you going to T10 or Dimmy's on Sunday?

and also:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZBImJv8HbQ&fmt=22

You're in at the end. You should of saved your replays D:

Yeah im dumb, I wish it auto-saved all replays. Dont worry Ill save all my replays at my ontario journey. Yeah im going to both, but those fiends took out all my combos. My rob might not look good anymore

Cool video, I actually saw half of it the other day. Didnt know I was in it :O

 

[5ive]

When are you going to T10? Brawl+ friendlies all day I want to try out my Diddy. And jump cancel shine Fox :D.

 

[HolyNightmare]

When are you going to T10? Brawl+ friendlies all day I want to try out my Diddy. And jump cancel shine Fox :D.

Im coming sunday for singles, but Im sure Ill have time to play friendlies with joo. If you come to dimmy by any chance saturday we can play too.

 

[Blank Mauser]

More options or less doesn't do anything better or worst for the metagame directly. It is what those options encourage.

One thing I'd like to bring up that may not be relevant anymore, but has been talked about in the IRC are the discussion of gimmicky moves like spindash and quick attack. I'm sure many experienced players of these characters have found great strategies to put these moves to practical use, but there are some who want to increase practicality via enhancing cancelablity or follow-ups. I feel that such changes to low-risk(applies to SD more so then QA) moves would not encourage creativity or strategy, which is something I often already see, but rather promote random or sporadic usage. It is easy to say that it looks cool, offers practical uses, but in the end mix-ups, fake-outs, they are not always added depth by definition. They are merely paths to encourage, and for moves like these which are already prone to good advantages I don't believe guaranteed advantageous situations need to be forcefully crafted in such a manner.

On the subject of Lucas' Zair. Lucas's general lack of an approach game is a shared weakness with many characters. A zair would indeed be helpful in this area. Even with this Zair though, Lucas will still neither excel in mobility nor disjointedness, but will have mediocre traces of both. Also, whether it would overshadow other setups needs to be taken into consideration. I don't want to out the idea of adding a new attack, so we should discuss this to see the best way to implement one first. Currently we are just using other zairs as precedence, but theres no need to restrict ourselves to it. It may be possible to give the zair lag, a sweetspot and a sourspot, slow the speed of it, tweak it as a perfect addition to the current Lucas and not as a prized buff that requires less useful advantages to be toned down. Not nerfing other moves for the sake of this one.

 

[Jimbo_G]

Why are you guys even approaching with Lucas? He's a camp and spacing character. If you're approaching you're doing something wrong.

His PK Fire has very little start-up and lag with wonderful knockback and punishes you for teching, which immediately puts you at an advantage. That by itself wrecks approaches and pushes players to the edge.

If they try to approach in the air you have one of the fastest F-Airs in the game as well as a complete body hitbox with N-Air to put them back on the ground, in which you can proceed to use his amazing ground attacks.

F-Tilt comes out almost instantly and is mostly safe on block, and jab has immense priority with a hitbox that hits completely around your character, not just in front.

Couple that with one of the fastest and most powerful (dis-jointed) F-Smashes in the game and you're nearly untouchable with proper spacing. If you make the approach you completely limit yourself in so many ways. Lucas is not an aggressive character but rather a reactive and punishing one.

A Z-Air hitbox does absolutely nothing the rest of these moves can't do just as well. You're looking for a way to bypass Lucas's range issue instead of accepting it as a weakness and finding ways to deal with it.

If you guys wanna know what lack of range feels like, try maining Wolf or Mario for a day and tell me with a straight face that Lucas has range issues.

 

[KOkingpin]

but i mean the animation is already there there's just no hitbox for some stupid reason i can guarantee you you won't have yoshi mains asking for some sort of tongue tether with their Z.

yeah i have to say we dont need a zair. Mainly because it not something that yoshi is meant to have. Yoshi is a power house on the stage but his weakness is his gimpable recovery. Lucas mains need to quit begging for more. You guys dont have throws that do 4%. There isnt a yoshi main that cares about our low damage throws. Lucas has a really good ground game. An almost ungimpable recovery. And a solid air game which is meant to be played defensively. I dont play lucas but i could pick him up and beat people with ease. Hes a great character. He can recover health with almost no drawback! Unlike ness whom lucas completely overshadows in all ways. I can only think of one bad move that lucas has. Pk freeze. Zair wont help you lucas mains. Everything else you have is better.

 

[Alphatron]

I stopped taking your post seriously when you said Lucas completely overshadows Ness in all ways.

Though I agree that he doesn't need a zair to be competitive in high level play. Look at Jiggs who has the worst range in the game and no projectiles. You gonna tell me anyone with bad aerial range can't approach?

 

[JCaesar]

I think we should at least give Lucas zair a try.

And for the record, I do NOT support giving indy pokemon a new down-B. In general I don't support adding new moves, but I feel that Lucas is a special case because it's basically already there and I think it could really add something interesting to his game.

If you guys wanna know what lack of range feels like, try maining Wolf or Mario for a day and tell me with a straight face that Lucas has range issues.

wat?

 

[WheelOfFish]

I main as Wolf and he has decent range on most of his moves. I don't think Lucas has range issues either though but I wouldn't be opposed to him getting a z-air... as long as it doesn't do 17 damage, holy crap.

 

[KOkingpin]

I stopped taking your post seriously when you said Lucas completely overshadows Ness in all ways.

the only thing Ness has better Aeriel wise is Fair (i think both have excellent D-airs).

Lucas ground Game is 10x better than Ness'. Ness has good jab combo Lucas has a great one. Lucas has better F-tilt. D-tilt for Lucas has more range and Easier Tripping. Up tilt on Ness may be a bit better.

Now onto smash attacks. If you think Ness' F-Smash is even close to as good as Lucas' You are insane. Yo-Yo's vs Lucas Up and Down Smash? Are you serious?

Heck even PK Freeze is more useful than PK Flash. Both has Very useful PK Fires. Lucas' being Defensive and Ness' being more Offensive. Lucas' PSI Magnet is better than Ness' even with the new buff Ness' got. He can punish people for trying to hit him out of PSI magnet.

And last onto recovery. Lucas' Recovery is leagues beyond Ness'. Ness can be gimped just by landing on hit Thunder while Lucas Eats you alive for trying to get near him (although if you fail at gimping Ness you pay the price for real lol PKT2 is monstrous)

Now i personally like Ness better due to his more aggressive play style. But even in Brawl+ characters who are defensive still get more rewards than Aggro style Characters(for the most part atleast).

Lucas is indeed a far better character than Ness. Even though I love Ness a million times more.

Though I agree that he doesn't need a zair to be competitive in high level play. Look at Jiggs who has the worst range in the game and no projectiles. You gonna tell me anyone with bad aerial range can't approach.

Jigglypuff has more aerial mobility than any other character to hit and back out so range is less of a need. Lucas range isn't as good as a lot of people in the game but his air movement speed is quite quick. A Lucas Z-air would just give him an Option that would be less useful than F-air or N-air.

 

[VietGeek]

People need to stop arguing in my sleep imo. Now I can't dream my Ice Car dreams. =<

1. Range is not Wolf's issue lol. IIRC bair outranges Marth's fair if Marth had no disjoints. Yea.

kk, zair talk:

2. While I can probably only be more annoyed by Lucas if he gets Mr. Rope Snake+, there is easily a way to make it so it's just a mediocre zair again.

Instead of a 60 degree angle, we can make it just like every other tether (other than B+ Link's <_<) with an angle of 45. Or to make it even easier on the opponent, an angle like 35-40.

And here's why that magic angle is actually not that bad:

1. At low levels of play zair will look like the magic tool Lucas needs. Just slightly better in fair in range, seems to combo pretty well.

2. At mid-levels of play, the move loses staple combo ability, and becomes a tech-chase move as people learn to DI it and tech. If combos people find in low level play do occur, it is due to pre-DI (typically up), or a general mistake.

3. At high levels of play, the move becomes telegraphed. Generally everyone and their mother who has a zair thinks: "mmkay...so I can attack out of an airdodge. Obviously flawless strat." This mentality isn't exactly wrong, and using it out of an airdodge will always be a dominate use. However this makes it telegraphed, and people will powershield it, and punish accordingly.

The aforementioned conditions also apply. Making it less dominant, and while less useful in high levels of play, is still a tool. However, what this is basically saying is:

Your Zair **** mileage may vary. Customer satisfaction is NOT guaranteed. If your Rope Snake seems defective please ask someone who cares to get it fixed. Do not allow it to imitate a worm and crawl into a hole. Thank you.

This is why Toon Link's tether isn't helping Toon Link become a high tier character. Even with all those buffs he's generally still mediocre (although I would argue he feels less worthless this way) and only seen as "too good" in casual circles and by those who simply dabble into him for friendlies. Annoying? Yes. Good? Eh.

Lucas can't be compared to Samus or Link because Samus basically has a guaranteed tech chase with Charge Shot, and Link's zair allows him to get guaranteed Usmashes from DACUS (which btw kill now) to compensate for the other large flaws he has.

Him getting zair won't exactly solve range issues. What it will alleviate is what seems to be a solid lack of ways to set-up kill moves, by it tech chase or not.

Also comparing Ness' old fair to bland Rope Snake is kinda odd lol. Ness' old fair was the epitome of a good-natured change gone terribly wrong. xD

4. At Marth levels of play, I hope to swing my sword and not have to fight Lucas any longer than I have to because nair is rage-inducing.

5. At Mr. Rope Snake levels of play, Rope Snake agrees he needs a formal appearance in Brawl, and thus is a self-centered jerk.

While I don't really care how this pans out personally, I'd like to say unless your name is Link or Samus, your "zair game" will ALWAYS be mediocre, ALWAYS be the fault of your opponent, and ONLY seem to dominate and overshadow every other tool you have against someone who is 1. A low level player, or 2. Does not know the match-up.

Match-ups are extremely important, and knowledge of it helps shine light that little 'poke' moves like this aren't as amazing as first thought (you guys should've been on the TL boards when some guy started saying zair was a useful move; needless to say everyone invested big Rupees for a new one).

 

[KOkingpin]

People need to stop arguing in my sleep imo. Now I can't dream my Ice Car dreams. =<

1. Range is not Wolf's issue lol. IIRC bair outranges Marth's fair if Marth had no disjoints. Yea.

kk, zair talk:

2. While I can probably only be more annoyed by Lucas if he gets Mr. Rope Snake+, there is easily a way to make it so it's just a mediocre zair again.

Instead of a 60 degree angle, we can make it just like every other tether (other than B+ Link's <_<) with an angle of 45. Or to make it even easier on the opponent, an angle like 35-40.

And here's why that magic angle is actually not that bad:

1. At low levels of play zair will look like the magic tool Lucas needs. Just slightly better in fair in range, seems to combo pretty well.

2. At mid-levels of play, the move loses staple combo ability, and becomes a tech-chase move as people learn to DI it and tech. If combos people find in low level play do occur, it is due to pre-DI (typically up), or a general mistake.

3. At high levels of play, the move becomes telegraphed. Generally everyone and their mother who has a zair thinks: "mmkay...so I can attack out of an airdodge. Obviously flawless strat." This mentality isn't exactly wrong, and using it out of an airdodge will always be a dominate use. However this makes it telegraphed, and people will powershield it, and punish accordingly.

The aforementioned conditions also apply. Making it less dominant, and while less useful in high levels of play, is still a tool. However, what this is basically saying is:

Your Zair **** mileage may vary. Customer satisfaction is NOT guaranteed. If your Rope Snake seems defective please ask someone who cares to get it fixed. Do not allow it to imitate a worm and crawl into a hole. Thank you.

This is why Toon Link's tether isn't helping Toon Link become a high tier character. Even with all those buffs he's generally still mediocre (although I would argue he feels less worthless this way) and only seen as "too good" in casual circles and by those who simply dabble into him for friendlies. Annoying? Yes. Good? Eh.

Lucas can't be compared to Samus or Link because Samus basically has a guaranteed tech chase with Charge Shot, and Link's zair allows him to get guaranteed Usmashes from DACUS (which btw kill now) to compensate for the other large flaws he has.

Him getting zair won't exactly solve range issues. What it will alleviate is what seems to be a solid lack of ways to set-up kill moves, by it tech chase or not.

Also comparing Ness' old fair to bland Rope Snake is kinda odd lol. Ness' old fair was the epitome of a good-natured change gone terribly wrong. xD

4. At Marth levels of play, I hope to swing my sword and not have to fight Lucas any longer than I have to because nair is rage-inducing.

5. At Mr. Rope Snake levels of play, Rope Snake agrees he needs a formal appearance in Brawl, and thus is a self-centered jerk.

While I don't really care how this pans out personally, I'd like to say unless your name is Link or Samus, your "zair game" will ALWAYS be mediocre, ALWAYS be the fault of your opponent, and ONLY seem to dominate and overshadow every other tool you have against someone who is 1. A low level player, or 2. Does not know the match-up.

Match-ups are extremely important, and knowledge of it helps shine light that little 'poke' moves like this aren't as amazing as first thought (you guys should've been on the TL boards when some guy started saying zair was a useful move; needless to say everyone invested big Rupees for a new one).

Im pretty sure I <3 you. You should come up to the B+ Tourney in TN August 15th. Zeonstar is coming too.

 

[grim mouser]

Posting to ask the WBR to test this aerial mobility value for Jiggly: 3E23D70A

I simply added 800000 to the default value. I'm not sure how it compares to Melee, but it's closer (if not very close to Melee's value).

At this value, Jiggs can SH aerial approach and get back to around where she jumped from. If someone can help me figure out how floating points work for values other than multiples of two, I can fine-tune this.

 

[timothyung]

Shanus is trying 1.5, and it seems awesome.
BTW Wario is 3

 

[Sanu]

lol @ blatantly disregarding the best ROB main's input on ROB+

GG WBR

 

[timothyung]

lol @ blatantly ignoring Holy, the best Rob main. GG WBR.

Not really. Look at the ROB thread in character discussion

 

[grim mouser]

Shanus is trying 1.5, and it seems awesome.
BTW Wario is 3

I'll have to try that. I assume 1.5 is original plus 400000?

Tested some more with 2. It's incredible as well. I'll try 1.5 when I have time to edit my .pac.

 

[Revven]

lol @ blatantly disregarding the best ROB main's input on ROB+

GG WBR

It wasn't ignored, Holy posted it in the ROB+ thread and JCaeser responded to it (a WBR member no less) and I read it and brought it to other WBR member's attention. I also told 5ive to tell Holy that if the changes don't go well, they will likely be either completely removed (this is the most like choice as most of us back here felt ROB was fine just like DK is) or tweaked. It was an experiment and it looks like it didn't turn out well.

Unsuccessful trolling is unsuccessful.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Maybe we could come up with something to make Lucas's zair more unique from others, since the whole point of adding it is to help him at high level play, but apparently it WON'T help him at high level play.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

And why does Jiggz need more aerial mobility? O_o what else are you planning to do to her?

 

[timothyung]

And why does Jiggz need more aerial mobility? O_o what else are you planning to do to her?

Because... it's awesome. But will the change be put into official builds? Needs more discussion on the fine tuning of character physics

 

[Mattnumbers]

Is the WBR ever planning to speed up tether character's dash grabs the same way their normal grabs are?

 

[Revven]

Is the WBR ever planning to speed up tether character's dash grabs the same way their normal grabs are?

Usually when a tether character dash grabs, they get even more range than their normal grab. I could understand doing it for Zamus (whose grab range on both dash and normal are roughly the same) but, Link, TL, Yoshi, and Lucas all get range increased when they dash grab... so it should be punishable when they miss.

Plus, again, we have a frame speed limit until we get the new engine. Doing something like this is out of the question right now in the first place.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

Is the WBR ever planning to speed up tether character's dash grabs the same way their normal grabs are?

yea I asked if pivot grabs/dash grabs would be sped up but I was told there isn't enough line code for it.

 

[VietGeek]

Maybe we could come up with something to make Lucas's zair more unique from others, since the whole point of adding it is to help him at high level play, but apparently it WON'T help him at high level play.

At high levels it will have you punished for spamming it, but it becomes *usually* a tech chase.

Basically it's not useless, but it won't solve Lucas' problems, merely allow him to annoy people further.

Buffing character strengths mirite?

 

[PKNintendo]

the only thing Ness has better Aeriel wise is Fair (i think both have excellent D-airs).

Lucas ground Game is 10x better than Ness'. Ness has good jab combo Lucas has a great one. Lucas has better F-tilt. D-tilt for Lucas has more range and Easier Tripping. Up tilt on Ness may be a bit better.

Now onto smash attacks. If you think Ness' F-Smash is even close to as good as Lucas' You are insane. Yo-Yo's vs Lucas Up and Down Smash? Are you serious?

Heck even PK Freeze is more useful than PK Flash. Both has Very useful PK Fires. Lucas' being Defensive and Ness' being more Offensive. Lucas' PSI Magnet is better than Ness' even with the new buff Ness' got. He can punish people for trying to hit him out of PSI magnet.

And last onto recovery. Lucas' Recovery is leagues beyond Ness'. Ness can be gimped just by landing on hit Thunder while Lucas Eats you alive for trying to get near him (although if you fail at gimping Ness you pay the price for real lol PKT2 is monstrous)

Now i personally like Ness better due to his more aggressive play style. But even in Brawl+ characters who are defensive still get more rewards than Aggro style Characters(for the most part atleast).

Lucas is indeed a far better character than Ness. Even though I love Ness a million times more.




Jigglypuff has more aerial mobility than any other character to hit and back out so range is less of a need. Lucas range isn't as good as a lot of people in the game but his air movement speed is quite quick. A Lucas Z-air would just give him an Option that would be less useful than F-air or N-air.

You know nothing about Ness vs Lucas.

Ness overshadowed by Lucas? Thats a laugh.
Lucas is ground game is better than Ness'... So? Ness is an aerial character. Simple as that.

Ness' Up and Downsmash are better than Lucas'. Lucas Upsmash is terrible, and his downsmash isn't even that good. Lucas has the Fsmash of the gods.

PK Flash>>>>>>>>>>>>PK Freeze. Try landing a PK freeze on a good opponent lol...
Comparing characters move by move is a horrible way of saying which one is better.

At high levels it will have you punished for spamming it, but it becomes *usually* a tech chase.

Basically it's not useless, but it won't solve Lucas' problems, merely allow him to annoy people further.

Buffing character strengths mirite?

I agree. Claus annoying the **** out of people is fun.

 

[Mattnumbers]

At high levels it will have you punished for spamming it, but it becomes *usually* a tech chase.

Basically it's not useless, but it won't solve Lucas' problems, merely allow him to annoy people further.

Buffing character strengths mirite?

Lol, maybe that should be a main strength we work for with Lucas, annoyance. I say speed up PK Fire X10 and make it do 1%.