Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[SymphonicSage12]

and remove all lag on pk thunder1 and make it do 1% each hit. and make it really easy to circle and angle. LOL

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

what was the reason behind falcons dair size increaze+dsmash speed up

 

[Plum]

And why does Jiggz need more aerial mobility? O_o what else are you planning to do to her?

Quite frankly it is because her current mobility hampers her aerial dominance that you know... defines every aspect of Jiggly's game.

Yeah, she is certainly mobile as it is, but when Wario can turn on a dime in the air and Jiggly can't then that might be something to fix.

I don't see how Lucas players would think his Zair would solve anything personally...
It would be one thing if it actually contributed to alleviate his lack of range, but it doesn't. It's still very short range, though disjointedness is nice. His bad matchups against those who just completely outrange him are still going to be just as bad. It's not like Marth or G&W would really care that he has a very short ranged Zair when it does nothing to stop their even greater disjointed range from getting to Lucas. The only thing it would do is make any good matchups Lucas has potentially easier for him.

Those aren't the kind of changes B+ should be taking. At this point changes really should be more tailored to helping matchups, but only if those matchups are absolutely abysmal. And for that to happen we just need more proof of the matchups. Even right now I wouldn't call Lucas vs G&W as bad. In fact, a lot of G&W's matchups probably got closer because once like Lucas many characters can punish him so hard. Once Lucas gets inside G&W (it's hard to do, but it happens) he can put so much hurt on him.

Edit: Not to mention its adding a brand new attack to the game... I have to agree with GHN that adding brand new attacks goes too far even in B+.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Lucas's snake still goes farther than his fair.

Lucas will never do well against characters with high range, but this will help him cope with ones who have medium ranged attacks.

Or we could do something unique like make the hitbox stay out for the whole zair and then have it clank with moves, that actually could help with his more lopsided matchups.

And people who are conservative for the sake of being conservative annoy me. It's one thing if you actually change an existing move or add an animation, but this is just adding a hitbox to an animation that is already there.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Yeah I think Jiggz should have the best aerial mobility in the game. It just makes sense for a balloon pokemon to be better in the air than a dinosaur who lays eggs AND ESPECIALLY a fat guy who loves hogies. Lol


Although I thought jiggz had better aerial mobility than wario, but w/e. And I like the snake idea. everyone else who haz a zair has a hitbox on it. I mean as of now the snake is useless...up b is almost always better for recovery.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Actually symphonic sage Rope Snake is always better to use if you are in range.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

well it's range is kinda low...that's the thing lol. and lucas and ness want to recover from low and away, which would require pkt2

 

[VietGeek]

I'm pretty sure Rope Snake and Marth's fair have the same range.

Let's think about how much Lucas mains will annoy me in tournaments...

...

man why are short characters so obnoxious?

bair bair bair bair

bomb bomb bomb bomb

jigg jigg jigg jigg

glidetoss to glidetoss to fthrow, to ledge trap, to glidetoss

dair dair to aerial mobility to fsmash

space fair space fair, dair shenanigans

and now zair to zair to zair

and that's just smash....

NEESAN NEESAN NEESAN NEESAN >=(

 

[Mattnumbers]

When used as a tether rope snake actually stretches ridiculously far. PKT2 is actually only used if you don't have a DJ (to zap jump with) and you are too far away to use rope snake.

EDIT:

I'm pretty sure Rope Snake and Marth's fair have the same range.

Let's think about how much Lucas mains will annoy me in tournaments...

...

man why are short characters so obnoxious?

bair bair bair bair

bomb bomb bomb bomb

jigg jigg jigg jigg

glidetoss to glidetoss to fthrow, to ledge trap, to glidetoss

dair dair to aerial mobility to fsmash

space fair space fair, dair shenanigans

and now zair to zair to zair

and that's just smash....

NEESAN NEESAN NEESAN NEESAN >=(

Wha......?

How could you forget!

PK FIYAH! PK FIYAH! PK FIYAH! PK FIYAH!!!!

 

[Demacrez]

I'm pretty sure Rope Snake and Marth's fair have the same range.

Let's think about how much Lucas mains will annoy me in tournaments...

...

man why are short characters so obnoxious?

bair bair bair bair

bomb bomb bomb bomb

jigg jigg jigg jigg

glidetoss to glidetoss to fthrow, to ledge trap, to glidetoss

dair dair to aerial mobility to fsmash

space fair space fair, dair shenanigans

and now zair to zair to zair

and that's just smash....

NEESAN NEESAN NEESAN NEESAN >=(

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Do68d7CcJj4

l0l Charizards.

Wait! Why does Lucas need to have a useful Z-Air? Doesn't he have a very useful Side-B?

 

[JCaesar]

Jiggs would be broke as **** if her aerial mobility was as good as Wario's imo. Let's think things through first plz.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

um it's part of her character, and she had the best aerial mobility in melee, and she wasn't broken. a lot of her moves aren't even that spectacular. :|

 

[GHNeko]

Jiggs would be broke as **** if her aerial mobility was as good as Wario's imo. Let's think things through first plz.

It was already agreed upon a while ago, guy. :V

 

[Revven]

what was the reason behind falcons dair size increaze+dsmash speed up

I'm pretty sure Dsmash isn't sped up... I'm pretty sure I said for it to not be in the set as it wouldn't help Falcon at all. The size increase might be for his nipple spike but I'm unsure, it just makes Dair a better approaching tool I guess.

Edit: Whoa whoa whoa, I never agreed to give her WARIO'S Aerial mobility. I said SOME aerial mobility, more than she has now and 1.5 sound appropriate to me as long as it is close to her Melee aerial mobility.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

And there's a reason why jigglypuff, a ****ing balloon, should have less aerial mobility than a fat guy who eats hogies? yeah, hm....

 

[GHNeko]

IIRC, reducing trade offs happening with falcon dair. Give him more priority, help his spike game, better approach tool, easier to hit, buffs a move used in his primary tactics.

:V

Falcon+ needs Brawl+ tools in addition to Melee tools. Not just Melee tools. :V

 

[VietGeek]

And there's a reason why jigglypuff, a ****ing balloon, should have less aerial mobility than a fat guy who eats hogies? yeah, hm....

I'll say this once and only once.

Smash Bros before Hoes.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

so, you're biased against jigglypuff because she's a girl...? I don't really get it.

 

[GHNeko]

Jiggly is a cross dresser. Not a girl.

 

[VietGeek]

so, you're biased against jigglypuff because she's a girl...? I don't really get it.

No, please take that to Sakurai.

Jiggly is a cross dresser. Not a girl.

No, it's a girl in the Smash Universe iirc. <_<

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Jigglypuff is 75% percent of the time a girl. And SHE wears a FLOWER, a SUNHAT, and a NIGHTCAP.


I'm pretty sure she's a girl. (the thing on her head is hair, btw, not whatever you were thinking)

 

[GHNeko]

Until I see some **** or some vag. Jiggs is a cross dresser to me.

As the internet says

pos-**** or GTFO.

 

[thesage]

This arguement should be in the social thread. It has nothing to do with jigglypuff's viability in competitive play.

People are forgetting that giving jiggs more aerial maneuverability may give her more combos into rest...

 

[Plum]

Edit: Whoa whoa whoa, I never agreed to give her WARIO'S Aerial mobility. I said SOME aerial mobility, more than she has now and 1.5 sound appropriate to me as long as it is close to her Melee aerial mobility.

Phew... I'm all for giving her more mobility but I like Wario's mobility being Wario.
Is Wario's seriously at 3?! ****. I never realized how insanely high his was XD

Does Lucas's Zair seriously have Marth Fair range?
I think that would cement not giving him a hitbox Zair. Character weaknesses shouldn't be fixed to the degree that he can suddenly compete with Marth's Fair.

I admit, the fact that PSA can give him a legit Zair is completely BADASS. But just because something is completely awesome doesn't mean it should be in the game. Somebody gave G&W his Melee Nair, which to me is the coolest thing EVAR but its not like that has a chance of making it in no matter how well/seamlessly it could fit in.

Changing something that drastic, even though it is just adding a hitbox to an animation, is just silly. I'm not just being conservative for the sake of conservatism; character weaknesses are there for a reason. Lack of range isn't stopping other characters like Jiggly, Wario, Mario, Luigi or Sonic from doing well. They all have something they can use to alleviate their lack of range/disjointedness and I'm sure Lucas is no exception. It all seems overly dramatic, because every Lucas I have fought has done perfectly fine coping with his lack of range.

 

[XSilvenX]

Brawl+ livestream is up..

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/insomniac-smashfest

 

[GHNeko]

This arguement should be in the social thread. It has nothing to do with jigglypuff's viability in competitive play.

People are forgetting that giving jiggs more aerial maneuverability may give her more combos into rest...

Which can easily be fixed.

Durp. <3

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Which can easily be fixed.

Durp. <3

How exactly would you fix having a lot of combos into rest? give all of her combo moves lots of end lag? You know how much that would suck?

 

[Pyrostormer]

LOL Plum I think you're misunderstanding. I don't know if it has Marth Fair range or not (because there's no hitbox and I can only go based on how it looks, and yes it does have decent range) but it won't act like a Marth Fair, FYI. It won't completely cover all air in front of him and act like a wall like Marth's Fair, it won't combo into itself like Marth's fair, and Lucas doesn't have the aerial mobility to retreat with it as effectively as Marth can. (Lucas is all momentum, his actual mobility is pretty bad).

And I think Viet said it PERFECTLY earlier. Zair is not supposed to be a TOTAL **** USE THIS MOVE 100% OF THE TIME BECAUSE IT'S BROKEN move, it will not suddenly make Lucas a top tier character, it doesn't alleviate any range issues because it's range is still rather poor, it simply gives Lucas a spacing tool he desperately needed in the air for approaching. Before, if you wanted to hit your opponent, you like, literally had to overlap with them, which is silly. With Zair, while his range is still not great (at all), he has an option that doesn't require him to die every time he gets hit.

While I disagree with Viet that Zair won't be an asset at high level play (I mean you're really only looking at it from the opponent PoV, attacking out of airdodge is never the only use, or even a dominant one, it's a great defensive tool though), it won't break him like some people are thinking.

Also, I don't get the "NEVER ADD ANY MOVES EVER" thing that Neko has going on <.< I mean you've already changed every other **** thing in the game, I don't see why this is any different.

When Brawl+ is almost finished (10 years from now ), and there's a really good...let's say, Mewtwo floating around that someone made with PSA/Model Hacking/etc., and there's an option to include a totally playable Mewtwo that's balanced and fits in the game, would you really keep him out on the basis that "WE SHOULD NEVER ADD ANYTHING THAT WASN'T ADD ALREADY HERE EVER" when you've already crossed that boundary? It seems kind of silly to me. If you're worried about crossing some line, it's already been crossed.

Sorry for bringing this up again, I just got here. :X

-stingers

 

[GHNeko]

How exactly would you fix having a lot of combos into rest? give all of her combo moves lots of end lag? You know how much that would suck?

Oh I dont know? Increase BKB? KBG? Change Angle? Shift hitboxes? Increase SDI capacity? Nerf rest? Shrink hitbox sizes?

idk maybe your right and we wouldnt have any way to fix combos into rest making her effectively broke. >:

Also, I don't get the "NEVER ADD ANY MOVES EVER" thing that Neko has going on <.< I mean you've already changed every other **** thing in the game, I don't see why this is any different.

When Brawl+ is almost finished (10 years from now ), and there's a really good...let's say, Mewtwo floating around that someone made with PSA/Model Hacking/etc., and there's an option to include a totally playable Mewtwo that's balanced and fits in the game, would you really keep him out on the basis that "WE SHOULD NEVER ADD ANYTHING THAT WASN'T ADD ALREADY HERE EVER" when you've already crossed that boundary? It seems kind of silly to me. If you're worried about crossing some line, it's already been crossed.

Sorry for bringing this up again, I just got here. :X

-stingers

Because even Brawl+ needs and has limits? And I believe the line should stop right infront adding new attacks to the game. <_>

We've crossed plenty of lines, but dont you think we should only cross so much before we go, "Okay. That's enough. No more." ?

I think we're reaching or have reached that final line and we shouldn't cross it. That's how I feel.


Also, Lucas doesnt really need that spacing tool you say he does until proven other wise (At least, imo). As leaf said, we're going off what we feel and the problem with that is that people feel different things.

Once you can actallly PROVE that Lucas needs Zair for his spacing game, then by all means. But even then, I'd support a buff to fair's range than adding a new **** attack to the game.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Well, what do you propose we do, then?

 

[GHNeko]

If we do give Jiggs aerial momentum and it does prose to be a problem with comboing into Rest, then we'll figure out what to do and get it done. Simple.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Well, maybe make it harder to drill rest combo, maybe? that would be a good solution, and jiggz still has plenty without drill rest.

 

[GHNeko]

Surprisingly, Drill rest is the main thing I dont see Jiggs doing now because of how often they're in the air.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Yeah, but nerfing her aerial game would just ruin her completely. :|

I wouldn't mind if fair has a little less knockback, though; it was fine in melee for me.

 

[Mattnumbers]

I still want Jigglypuffs Fthrow to be nerfed.

 

[GHNeko]

Correction. nefering her aerial game too much would ruin her completely.

But I dont even know why we're bringing that up because we dont even know what potenial is created by giving Jiggs more aerial mobility because we have YET to even do so.

Enough theorycrafting over this AND Lucas' zair. Let's move on to something different already.

The monotony that this thread is showing me is getting extremely annoying now. <_>

This thread is actually showing my conservative side, something that I rarely see considering I'm usually for change which is odd as ****. :V

Come on people. Something new. Something new!

I still want Jigglypuffs Fthrow to be nerfed.

DI my good son. DI.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

I still want Jigglypuffs Fthrow to be nerfed.

This. although it still doesn't kill at all, the buff was useless and a waste of code space. Did I mention it doens't kill until 150+ on the side of the stage, if you have good di?

but keep the bthrow buff. I like that one ^_^



OKAY NEW TOPIC. Um....hmm I don't know. Neko, are you planning on having your idea for Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2 be in the next nightly?

 

[GHNeko]

Fthrow makes FFers cry at the edge of stages.

It's quite hilarious really.

 

[Mattnumbers]

DI my good son. DI.

It's not that the move kills (even though it kills ridiculously easy on walkoff stages, and it can kill with DI at the edge of some stages at probably 120%), its that it throws you very far offstage, and that coupled with jigglypuffs ridiculous grab range makes it really good. Jigglypuff is good enough without a throw that sets up for edgeguarding perfectly, having options on the ground doesn't fit with her playstyle.

Ness has a similar throw (His Fthrow) which doesn't go nearly as far and yet he is the one known for great throws.

 

[Pyrostormer]

Something else? Sure, here's an idea

Give Lucario's Extremespeed a hitbox, and remove the Auto Sweetspot (I'm assuming PSA can remove auto sweetspot, though I don't know :x)