nejiattack
Smash Rookie
Yuna always finds answers for everyone.
Anyways, if you mean balanced, does that mean the characters must be equal?
Anyways, if you mean balanced, does that mean the characters must be equal?
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Brawl - More balanced than Melee? Lie or truth?
- Thread starter Yuna
- Start date
- Status
Frozenwave
Smash Ace
Characters must be equal will only happen when characters are the same :V
nejiattack
Smash Rookie
Well then this game must be a little less balanced as melee because pikachu and pichu, mario and dr.mario were the same.
Frozenwave
Smash Ace
No i mean play Street fighter and have Ken vs Ryu level of same 
ArcNatural
Banned ( ∫x, δx Points)
This is your opinion. How can you say that if you put all the training into Snake instead of Lucario that they would be better? Given that Snake is a better character overall the odds are higher that they would perform better with said character, but it's not absolute. Are you saying that Mango should of picked Fox to main in Melee? I'm pretty sure he wouldn't trade winning Pound 3 with Jigglypuff just for the sake of "Fox is the best character in the game".
I'm not going to argue tiers. There are real matchups that are just absolutely horrible regardless. But as you said Lucario isn't that BAD of a character. He is viable for tourney play.
I'm trying to say that just because they are the best characters, Someone can come along and win with another character, and probably not be able to win as well with said top tier characters. This is aimed at the people who pick up top tiers because they are easier to play as. I'm saying that you could possibly play BETTER with another character despite how much you practice with top tiers.
It's a slightly hard matchup now. I was trying to point out how our perceptions did change. Before M2k mained Marth and started basically forcing people to pick Sheik to even stand a chance the matchup USED to be considered a counter. It wasn't until near the tail end of Ken's Melee career and M2k's upcoming Marth that people considered it a slight advantage to Sheik.
That you should stop trying to force everyone to accept your view which, by the way, is what most readers agree with to some extent (the majority). I agree with a lot of your points, just not to the extremes that you do. There are more Chu Dats, BUMs, etc. Or players that simply will do better with lesser complete characters for no reason at all.
I agree to this for the most part. I just don't think that M2k won because his character potential was higher. I know you know that games aren't decided solely via character selection. So I don't know why you state that M2k won because his character's are better.
The Halloween Captain
Smash Master
For Yuna - I'll give you credit for pointing out that there are absolute limits to video games. Now its just about creatively reaching those limits, if the vocabulary is such a big deal to this discussion.
However, I have played Pokemon Trainer for months now, and it seems like the primary reason he does so poorly is he's just too difficult to learn. Most people have time to learn a main and a secondary well, while very smart, devoted smashers can learn maybe five characters at a tournament playable level. Pokemon Trainer requires at least three times as much effort to learn as any other character. Most people have not had time to master him in these short, five months since Brawl's release, or would rather choose the three different characters they want to main rather than be stuck with one very difficult character. Pokemon Trainer is harder to pick up than anyone else, which is why I'm waiting to see how he does in a year or two.
A transformation does not necessarily have the potential to beat MK or Snake, but rather, transformations have double (Zelda/Shiek) or even triple (Pokemon Trainer) the total possible matchups of any other character. Thus, it makes sence that at least one of these matchups would be at least neutral in every situation.
Is the Metagame of any character at the level of its greatest player, or is it just determined by how the "average" above-average tourney goer plays the character? (yes, I'm aware of the oxymoron in the previous sentence).
However, I have played Pokemon Trainer for months now, and it seems like the primary reason he does so poorly is he's just too difficult to learn. Most people have time to learn a main and a secondary well, while very smart, devoted smashers can learn maybe five characters at a tournament playable level. Pokemon Trainer requires at least three times as much effort to learn as any other character. Most people have not had time to master him in these short, five months since Brawl's release, or would rather choose the three different characters they want to main rather than be stuck with one very difficult character. Pokemon Trainer is harder to pick up than anyone else, which is why I'm waiting to see how he does in a year or two.
A transformation does not necessarily have the potential to beat MK or Snake, but rather, transformations have double (Zelda/Shiek) or even triple (Pokemon Trainer) the total possible matchups of any other character. Thus, it makes sence that at least one of these matchups would be at least neutral in every situation.
Is the Metagame of any character at the level of its greatest player, or is it just determined by how the "average" above-average tourney goer plays the character? (yes, I'm aware of the oxymoron in the previous sentence).
Frozenwave
Smash Ace
Character + Skill + Matchup vs Character + Skill + Matchup
This is fighting games
I'm trying to say that just because they are the best characters, Someone can come along and win with another character, and probably not be able to win as well with said top tier characters. This is aimed at the people who pick up top tiers because they are easier to play as. I'm saying that you could possibly play BETTER with another character despite how much you practice with top tiers.
5 + 5 + 5 vs 4 + 6 + 5
you get yourself a good game! :D if you choose a toptier and can play the top tier at its potential, then you can have more points on character!
BUT *insert awesome guy* CAN WIN WITH BOTTOMTIER! yeah that means his skill is miles better then whoevers.
This is fighting games
I'm trying to say that just because they are the best characters, Someone can come along and win with another character, and probably not be able to win as well with said top tier characters. This is aimed at the people who pick up top tiers because they are easier to play as. I'm saying that you could possibly play BETTER with another character despite how much you practice with top tiers.
5 + 5 + 5 vs 4 + 6 + 5
you get yourself a good game! :D if you choose a toptier and can play the top tier at its potential, then you can have more points on character!
BUT *insert awesome guy* CAN WIN WITH BOTTOMTIER! yeah that means his skill is miles better then whoevers.
"Zelda vs. Snake. Blah, blah, Snake has a higher chance of winning. [sic] Even if you use Sheik, chances for Snake are much higher."
The word "even" implies Sheik is better than Zelda.
Sorry, I always mix you two up when I read the forums because:
* You both know Charles
* You both play Competitive Smash
* You both live in London
* Your names both start with "Fro" and are both associated with ice/cold/whatever.
In fact, early on, I kept mixing you two up in real life as well, referring to you as Frostbyte and Frostbyte as Frozenwave
.In a perfectly balanced game, every single chacter will have an equal chance of winning. In a near perfectly balanced game, ditto, only not "exactly the same", "roughly the same" is good enough (case in point, Guilty Gear XX#Reload).
The question at hand is "Which game is more balanced (than the other), Melee or Brawl?", though. It's not "Are these games even balanced?".
I'm sorry, what part of "statistical probability" was too Chinese for you to grasp? It's quite obvious I'm saying that it's statistically probable, not set in stone.
So the argument "Azen managed to get 2nd as Lucario once!" doesn't really mean much, hence, it's a moot point.
This means bupkis and has no place in this discussion. Of course someone can win with a Low Tier given the right circumstances. Of course there are bad Top Tier players. Inconsequential to the discussion at hand.
Funny, many of us thought it was only a slight advantage way before that.
My views are based on fact. Most of other people's views are based on assumptions, guess-work and blind opinion.
This is a thread discussing the hypothesis "Which game is more balanced, Melee or Brawl?". I'm honestly open for debate. If someone present me with irrefutable or even quasi-irrefutable arguments, I will conceed I was wrong in thinking Brawl is less balanced than Melee.
But does that mean I cannot argue against arguments I feel are inane/bad/inconsequential/inaccurate/whatever? Why must I stand by quietly and let people state how they think without being able to state what I think without being accused of not being open to accepting others' views?
This is not a question of "What do you like more". It's a question of something which can be verified using facts.
Nobody said this either. I just said that M2k had an easier time winning than Azen because of his character's potential.
Stop putting words into my mouth.
It kinda is when so many people argue "No, we do not 'discover' anything, we 'create' it!" as they're clearly mistaken.
Says you. He does so poorly because his Pokémons just aren't that good. They don't suck, but they're hardly Top Tier material.
Difficulty to learn is inconsequential since if it's humanly possible, then it will be done. If he's got so much potential, how come so few view his potential as high and so few manage to place well (or at all) as him?
And? Prove his potential by actually pointing out how he's good, not how he takes more effort. What makes you think Pokémon Trainer is good?
Whatever. Read above.
This means bupkis if the characters are programmed badly. As in, the characters are programmed in such a way that Pokémon Trainer's Pokémons have the disadvantage in the matchup, even if you frequently switch between the three.
As I've already said, when talking theory fighter, we must consider what would happen at the highest echelons of play. Nobody cares that at lower levels, some Snakes might get owned by Pokémon Trainers because of unfamiliarity with the matchup. We care if Cort's Snake can be taken out by X-player's Pokémon Trainer.
A character's metagame is defined as the total sum of its potential, meaning at the highest levels of play. Nobody cares about the "average" level of play because there are so many "less-than average to bad" players at tournaments they skew the results. Heck, "average" isn't even that good.
Frozenwave
Smash Ace
Yeah I dont blame ya, Ice is awesome :V
Character + Skill + Matchup vs Character + Skill + Matchup
Yeah Just look at it and try to understand it, it will all become clear
Also Yuna charles tellin me you in vietnam, hows it rollin down there?
Character + Skill + Matchup vs Character + Skill + Matchup
Yeah Just look at it and try to understand it, it will all become clear
Also Yuna charles tellin me you in vietnam, hows it rollin down there?
The Halloween Captain
Smash Master
To Yuna - You are right, I forgot to tell you why PT has potential.
PT's tactics don't rely on a single pokemon. They require you to switch to the most advantageous Pokemon for the situation. Squirtle is light and can't kill well, but gives the opponent damage and can gimp recoveries. He is used for each new stock.
Ivysaur has good air attack, but one of the worst recoveries in the game. His bullet seed is very effective for increasing opponent damage, and he can KO, but is not the best at it, and should be switched out soon after Squirtle.
Charzard is powerful, but in many ways is a toned-down D3. He is used to survive at the end, and get the final KO's of the stock.
Each pokemon has a purpose, blah blah blah, and all the other stuff you heard before. The basic idea behind Pokemon Trainer, however, is that you switch pokemon once or more often twice per life, and this gives you the type of fighter you need at the time you need it. Since the three fighters are generally considered situational, one for getting opponent damage up, one who can KO and increase opponent damage quickly, and one who can KO and survives much longer than the rest, they need to "work together" to be good. Its one of those tag-team things, which actually adds a layer of difficulty to the character concerning timing those necesary pokemon swaps.
Also, PT often has the advantage of being more unpredictable than other characters. Most characters stick to one style, you learn how the opponent fights and can anticipate him quickly. When your opponent is PT, it becomes necesary to learn how your opponent fights with three different characters, which makes tha battle slightly harder to win and moves more difficult to anticipate.
PT's tactics don't rely on a single pokemon. They require you to switch to the most advantageous Pokemon for the situation. Squirtle is light and can't kill well, but gives the opponent damage and can gimp recoveries. He is used for each new stock.
Ivysaur has good air attack, but one of the worst recoveries in the game. His bullet seed is very effective for increasing opponent damage, and he can KO, but is not the best at it, and should be switched out soon after Squirtle.
Charzard is powerful, but in many ways is a toned-down D3. He is used to survive at the end, and get the final KO's of the stock.
Each pokemon has a purpose, blah blah blah, and all the other stuff you heard before. The basic idea behind Pokemon Trainer, however, is that you switch pokemon once or more often twice per life, and this gives you the type of fighter you need at the time you need it. Since the three fighters are generally considered situational, one for getting opponent damage up, one who can KO and increase opponent damage quickly, and one who can KO and survives much longer than the rest, they need to "work together" to be good. Its one of those tag-team things, which actually adds a layer of difficulty to the character concerning timing those necesary pokemon swaps.
Also, PT often has the advantage of being more unpredictable than other characters. Most characters stick to one style, you learn how the opponent fights and can anticipate him quickly. When your opponent is PT, it becomes necesary to learn how your opponent fights with three different characters, which makes tha battle slightly harder to win and moves more difficult to anticipate.
ArcNatural
Banned ( ∫x, δx Points)
S
orry to have to double quote, maybe you implied such. But I don't see how this translates to M2k had an easier time. So sorry for the misinterpretation.
I'm largely off topic though. I believe as you do that Brawl is more unbalanced than Melee was. Your not really disagreeing with me, your just doing the "Well of course I knew that, I just don't really care about it because it doesn't matter for the thread discussion".
Which I have to say is true, I entered my first real melee tournament in 2004 and the brawl scene is lol. I watched the now infamous Cort vs PC Snake vs Snake finals at the tournament thinking this is the most stupidest match I have ever seen. Especially seeing how good they are playing melee during the same tourney. As of right now I do not see any way of refuting that Brawl is more imbalanced.
I guess I owe you an apology here. I was referring to you replying to my views, but you did not in fact say my view is false. You just state that it's simply not very probable. I am in no way saying that you should be accepting "Brawl is balanced" claims without any facts. So my bad.
How does this translate into "Pokémon Trainer beats Snake or at least fights him on even ground and has the potential to win major tournaments"?
How is it even different than a single character who's good at virtually everything? As you said, each Pokémon has major flaws. So what if you switch between them to do things? That's actually worse than playing a single character who excels at most stuff... like Snake, Meta-Knight and the other future Top- and High Tiers.
"I can beat people who are unfamiliar to the matchup" - I already invalidated this argument months ago. Assume the Snake player knows how to fight Pokémon Trainer.
Mew2King's character had an easier time winning than Azen's. Azen managed to hold his own but ultimately, he lost due to his character just not being up to shape. Of course, there's no guarantee he would've done better as a High Tier but it's clear that in that set, DeDeDe and Meta-Knight had an easier time winning than Lucario.
It sounded a lot like you weer arguing the opposite was true, at least partially, going by what you said. I apologize if you meant the opposite.
Bum rarely attended major tournaments, but all the tournaments he did attend he placed well at, in fact, I believe the lowest he has ever placed has been 4th or 5th. He has also won sets against the likes of PC Chris, Isai, and Chudat, and essentially forced M2K to use Marth. Every fast faller fears Bum's DK, that includes the upper echelon of talent. You may be ignorant of Bum's legacy, which I can't really fault you for, if you don't play on the East Coast, you would likely not here much about Bum.
Did Bum discover anything? No, everyone knew you could **** fast fallers with DK because Captain Jack showed it years before hand. What Bum did was he simply used the same stuff, and did it slightly better, and that happened to make all the difference. It meant that when he got a grab, instead of only doing 50%, he would do 80% or end a stock completely. He didn't find a move or tactic that didn't already exist, he simply did everything better and more consistently than had been done before (for example, he had a knack for landing grabs for more than DK should be able to land grabs, this wasn't a discovery, it was simply a result of his ability to out-think the opponent). It turned out, all DK needed were a few tweaks and more consistency, and viola, suddenly the match up swung his way. It wasn't just Bum that did this, IIRC, the best player in Canada used DK and essentially ***** at Pound 3, among other tournaments.
Was everything DK needed there at the beginning of the game? Sure. But two people can look at the same exact things and come up with completely different ways to play. Thats the beauty of Smash and most competitive fighting games. Even though I'm sure the chess argument is overdone, it makes a great example: everything does exist at the beginning of the game, but its up the person to take the material they have and mold it the way they see fit. Are they discovering anything? Maybe, maybe not, it depends on your definition of discovery I guess.
Lucario isn't that bad largely because Azen started using him and people took what he did and ran with it. And if Melee is any indication, yes, he will be able to. Maybe not with the worst character in the game, but likely with the top 10-15, and still make at least top 5-7 with likely every other character.
But did he win against Spacies by a large margin? Because that's what a counter is, a matchup in which one side is statistically probable to win by a large margin.
In other words, you agree with me that no one created anything and all they did was discover/refine/define/change perceptions of things? We're pretty much in agreement on this, only you, for some reason, dislike the word "discovery".
But again, that's just Azen. He is who he is. Now if others can do the same with "lesser" characters, then we'll take. But as long as only Azen and a select few others are able to take Lucario into the Top 10 (with only Azen placing Top 3), then Lucario isn't really that good (as of the current known metagame).
Do you realize 90+% of what you just said is the exact same thing I said, only worded differently?
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
Umm...hardest matchup=/=counter. Shiek was always and still remains the best choice against Marth. But many people interpret this as her being a Marth counter which was never true. It was blown out of proportion because Marth normally benefits from slight advantages on all of the high tier and top tier characters (he had 2 or 3 even matchups), so having a disadvantage threw Marth players off. It's not that M2K started maining Marth, it's that we realized there where much harder matchups than Shiek vs Marth, and that we were just exagerating.
I think the same should be considered for Snake and Metaknight. Before you say that a character counters, or even has an advantage on either of these characters, take the time to consider that maybe it's just an even matchup. Maybe you only think it's an advantage because it's easier than using other characters against them, when really that's just what an even matchup feels like. No more "Zomg DK counters Metaknight!" How about "Ok, DK doesn't get ***** by Metaknight."
Krayn
Smash Apprentice
I really like the point that Alpha made when he said "everything does exist at the beginning of the game, but its up the person to take the material they have and mold it was they see fit."
Revolutionary1804
Smash Apprentice
Personally i think the balance in Melee came because many of the pro players decided that since they are good with some top tiers, they started experimenting with some of the lower tiers and such. there are some exceptions obviously such as Chu picking Ic's but thats besides teh point. in brawl, the idea that MK and Snake were god tier was instilled from an early point and therfore were easy picks for the game in order to win. at this point in the game Brawl might be more imbalanced then Melee but one cannot dispute this fact until you give this fairly new game enought time.
The fact that you dont see any high placing PT's (since he was the center of the debate now) might not be because he is a bad character but just because some of the moer advanced palyers just didnt find a liking to him and didnt waste their time picking and developping it. Until a thourough meta-game is devised for every character, one can't really say that "well in Melee there were more high placing Bowsers" because in Melee not only was tehre more time for more Bowsers to place higher but there was also a lot of knowledge about that character. Obviously there are less Pts placing high in this tournament because they haven't had as much time to win nor have they had one major name to set a trend as to how to play a good PT and, this is the case for many of the lower tiered characters. For example, in the beginning many ppl said that C. Falcon's best approach move was the falcon kick but we as a group have come to realize that that move isen't really that good but his jab is the SH*T. From this i have come to realize that the meta-games we think are set in stone now might change as early as next week or tomorrow.
basically: just give it a few more months
The fact that you dont see any high placing PT's (since he was the center of the debate now) might not be because he is a bad character but just because some of the moer advanced palyers just didnt find a liking to him and didnt waste their time picking and developping it. Until a thourough meta-game is devised for every character, one can't really say that "well in Melee there were more high placing Bowsers" because in Melee not only was tehre more time for more Bowsers to place higher but there was also a lot of knowledge about that character. Obviously there are less Pts placing high in this tournament because they haven't had as much time to win nor have they had one major name to set a trend as to how to play a good PT and, this is the case for many of the lower tiered characters. For example, in the beginning many ppl said that C. Falcon's best approach move was the falcon kick but we as a group have come to realize that that move isen't really that good but his jab is the SH*T. From this i have come to realize that the meta-games we think are set in stone now might change as early as next week or tomorrow.
basically: just give it a few more months
IrArby
Smash Ace
People have learned to not show favortism with Characters especially Pros. What, I mean by that is, all noobs laugh if you pick Melee Jiggs or ICs but Pros know better. That compounded by the fact that everyone was looking to find AT type gameplay in Brawl, I doubt anyone has overlooked the potential of characters like PT to any great extent.
Additionally, I (who have placed high at no major tournaments) recognized within 5 mins the both Ivy/Char were ****ty characters and that Squirttle was the only one worth a ****. What has changed since then? Not much that has been instilled since the early develpment of the metagame has changed greatly. The **** and ***** characters are still in a somewhat similar order.
Also, whomever said that using Falcon Kick as a approach was a good idea did not know how to shield. Falcon's jab is ****ty no the **** but thats just FYI.
Point of Post: Characters are not being ignored now for no good reason. Many professionals undoubtedly took the time to check out all the characters and the resulting predictive tiers/tournament results are what they found.
Additionally, I (who have placed high at no major tournaments) recognized within 5 mins the both Ivy/Char were ****ty characters and that Squirttle was the only one worth a ****. What has changed since then? Not much that has been instilled since the early develpment of the metagame has changed greatly. The **** and ***** characters are still in a somewhat similar order.
Also, whomever said that using Falcon Kick as a approach was a good idea did not know how to shield. Falcon's jab is ****ty no the **** but thats just FYI.
Point of Post: Characters are not being ignored now for no good reason. Many professionals undoubtedly took the time to check out all the characters and the resulting predictive tiers/tournament results are what they found.
Falconv1.0
Smash Master
Reeeeeaaaaaaaaalllly getting tired of the blanket statement that pro's ignore low/mid tiers. People are not labeled ****ty because no one wants to use them, dont be stupid.
In a few months, not much will be different, unless we find a game changing tech which is unlikely.
Ivysaur sucks, LIZARDON isn't that good, and Squirtle is good. Combine all three and you have one very avoided character. >.>
In a few months, not much will be different, unless we find a game changing tech which is unlikely.
Ivysaur sucks, LIZARDON isn't that good, and Squirtle is good. Combine all three and you have one very avoided character. >.>
Smooth Criminal
Da Cheef
Revolutionary1804
Smash Apprentice
so you admit that PT is an avoided character then, granted it's because u think he sucks but in the same respect, Bowser was an avoided character back in Melee and Gimpyfish was however able to make something out of him.....
Smooth Criminal
Da Cheef
And yet look where Gimpy and his Bowser stand IIRC. By no means am I implying that Gimpy is a bad player, I'm just saying that Bowser still isn't that great of a character regardless. Any GOOD Bowser main will tell you this, even Gimpy himself.
Smooth Criminal
A large margin is not the only way to tell a counter. If Peach beats Ice Climbers 100 times to 0, but every game is a 1 stock victory, then Peach is still a counter character. However, Bum did in fact win many of the games by large margins, you should just search for Bum versus Isai on youtube. He was winning so badly one game, Isai literally just suicided his last stock because he recognized it was a hopeless effort.
Boxob
Smash Champion
I love how everyone uses Gimpyfish as an example for tiers being skewed/not existing.
It's great.
It's great.
Revolutionary1804
Smash Apprentice
fine then ill just say BUM lol
Pikminmaniac
Smash Cadet
All I can offer in this debate is that I choose my Favorite characters from my gaming past so with Melee I mained as Ness against a tourney group and won most of the time unless Marth, Fox, or Falco was used. Then it was a garunteed loss. In Brawl I can beet any character with an even chance, but I am using Olimar now as I love pikmin and Pikmin 2 an unhealthy amount. But, I am hitting random way more often than I did in melee with more confidence. I hope this feeling stays.
On a side note: Why are Purple pikmin the worst in Brawl when they are by far the strongest and most used in Pikmin 2?
On a side note: Why are Purple pikmin the worst in Brawl when they are by far the strongest and most used in Pikmin 2?
BlackWaltzX
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2007
- Messages
- 1,013
I think it's more balanced now, I believe in these past 170 pages that somewhere, someone said what I was thinking already..
So yeah, more people are spread around characters this time than it was with Fox, Falco, Shiek and Marth.
I miscounted possibly, but I see 8 characters in people's avatar/signature (Disreguarding the Sonic Wave's Mart/MK signature).
Right there is more than the general used cast that Melee had.
EDIT:: Also, Gimpy uses Bowser because he likes the character, not for tier reasons.
So yeah, more people are spread around characters this time than it was with Fox, Falco, Shiek and Marth.
I miscounted possibly, but I see 8 characters in people's avatar/signature (Disreguarding the Sonic Wave's Mart/MK signature).
Right there is more than the general used cast that Melee had.
EDIT:: Also, Gimpy uses Bowser because he likes the character, not for tier reasons.
Pray tell, how many tournaments have you seen Gimpyfish win as Bowser? Or even place Top 5? What did Gimpyfish manage to do with Bowser exactly? Place Top 10?
... ... ...
Gimpyfish himself admits Bowser is a sucky character,
It is impossible to have a matchup where a character beats another by 100 to 0, yet it's so close it's only a 1-stcoking. Because in order to be able to win 100 to 0, you have to have such an advantageous matchup you're at least statistically probable to 2-stock your opponent.
Tell me, how much of this **** was just "novelty"? Bum is a great player, sure. I've seen some of his stuff. But how much of this "****" which everyone feared and screamed about occured early on in his career and kinda ebbed out as people learned to deal with Donkey Kong as fastfallers?
Falconv1.0
Smash Master
Yuna and Smooth Criminal win.
Seriously, way to go and use Gimpyfish as an example, are you ****ing kidding me? When was the last time Gimpyfish said "Oh look at how good Bowser is" oh wait, he was too busy saying he sucks.
Seriously, way to go and use Gimpyfish as an example, are you ****ing kidding me? When was the last time Gimpyfish said "Oh look at how good Bowser is" oh wait, he was too busy saying he sucks.
Yukiwarashi
Smash Champion
Wow. As a PT main it's kind of annoying for me to see so many people overrating Squirtle. Why does everyone consider Squirtle good? He's like a Pichu that doesn't hurt himself. Seriously. He's got no range. Yeah, he's great with aerials...but in a game like Brawl, abusing aerials is just begging for you to be shield grabbed. Not only that, but because Squirtle needs to be an offensive character he will get tired a LOT quicker than if you are to use Ivysaur and Charizard. At least Ivysaur and Charizard have moves that work on the defensive. What does Squirtle have? Nearly useless B moves. His quick neutral A is probably the best thing about him. Hydroplanning is okay, I guess.
Honestly, Charizard is the best of the group. Even though he's big and he can get chained, Flamethrower and Rock Smash are awesome moves to have. Fly is quite a reliable recovery move, and fair is awesome for edgeguarding. Even if you don't send them far away with it you can still spike with dair. Fatigue isn't as bad with Charizard as it is with Squirtle and Ivysaur because of his weight and power. If Charizard's out, there's no need to switch to Squirtle. Squirtle and Ivysaur cannot say the same thing because of their weight and Ivysaur's fear of being off the stage.
Ivysaur...I like Ivysaur. I won't lie. She lacks reliable kill moves, but she can tank and space pretty well...and much love for Bullet Seed.
So yeah. I love Pokemon Trainer. I love Squirtle, Ivysaur and Charizard. Each of them are useful in their own ways, and they are also flawed. But I beg of you...if you don't even use PT, stop overrating Squirtle. He's not the best of the three.
Honestly, Charizard is the best of the group. Even though he's big and he can get chained, Flamethrower and Rock Smash are awesome moves to have. Fly is quite a reliable recovery move, and fair is awesome for edgeguarding. Even if you don't send them far away with it you can still spike with dair. Fatigue isn't as bad with Charizard as it is with Squirtle and Ivysaur because of his weight and power. If Charizard's out, there's no need to switch to Squirtle. Squirtle and Ivysaur cannot say the same thing because of their weight and Ivysaur's fear of being off the stage.
Ivysaur...I like Ivysaur. I won't lie. She lacks reliable kill moves, but she can tank and space pretty well...and much love for Bullet Seed.
So yeah. I love Pokemon Trainer. I love Squirtle, Ivysaur and Charizard. Each of them are useful in their own ways, and they are also flawed. But I beg of you...if you don't even use PT, stop overrating Squirtle. He's not the best of the three.
#HBC | Red Ryu
Red Fox Warrior
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That wasn't the point of using Bowser as an example.
The purpose was to show a good Bowser being used, that it is possible though improbable for Bowser to be used greatly, not that he was a great character.
The result matters, not the way how that result came to be.
Using Gimpyfish's Bowser as an example is just plain stupid, cos everyone knows, that he's the best Bowser out there. The fact that he never got higher than top10 rankings in tourneys and that he even admits himself that Bowser is bad, tells us a lot about Gimpys skills, not about Bowsers possiblities. Otherwise he'd have won in tourneys against pros, who used - well - better characters. On the other hand, we all know that Gimpy would win against a vast majority of players. That doesn't prove Bowsers quality in the slightest. It only shows, that only a tiny fraction of players can keep up with Gimpy's skills.
In Brawl it's just the same, just in a much higher qualily. There are lots of pros, who don't win with their mains (unless it's Sbake or MK) in tourneys, no matter how good they are.
illboyzeus
Smash Ace
Gimpy isn't the best bowser...
nejiattack
Smash Rookie
You are right, it is me. Just kidding.
Even if someplayed better they can still lose. Bowser vs MK. If Bowser dodges more than MK, it does not matter. Bowser will always get punished because MK speed.
Even if someplayed better they can still lose. Bowser vs MK. If Bowser dodges more than MK, it does not matter. Bowser will always get punished because MK speed.
IrArby
Smash Ace
Wait, isn't that what I said. I'm just clarifying since were in agreement here right? I think I deserve a medal too Smooth Criminal. lol
Also, if tiers don't exist/every character can win if your skilled enough than Gimpy just sucks because theoritically, he's using a perfectly capable tournament character and isn't winning tournaments. Even according to this theory he still doesn't suck since he places, but if tires don exit than he has no excuse for not winning with Bowser plain and simple. Therefore, tier exist in Brawl just as they do in Melee though they have more wieght in former rather than the latter.
EDIT: so who is the best Bowser?
Smooth Criminal
Da Cheef
Um...
There's Reflex, KevinM, DJ Nintendo, Arash...
Smooth Criminal
There's Reflex, KevinM, DJ Nintendo, Arash...
Smooth Criminal
clowsui
Smash Legend
Smooth Criminal I thought you didn't play Brawl >_>;
Smooth Criminal
Da Cheef
On occasion, I do. The guy I usually play Brawl with on a day-to-day basis (I don't have a Wii; I had to sell it to help pay bills a little while ago) has finally conceded that Melee is the better game of the two and now we're playing that for hours on end. Before he was like, "ZOMG BRAWL IS SO AWESOME BECAUSE IT'S ACCESSIBLE AND N00B FRIENDLY, NO CLACKCLACKCLACKING INVOLVED." Because he had a preference, I thought I would just be the nice guy and play Brawl. After a earth-shattering Brawl match with GA's own Desu (he beat Desu's Brawl Samus with his scrubby-*** Metaknight---go figure), he loathes the game for what it is. Which suits me fine, really, because I enjoy playing Melee a LOT more.
Soooooooo...
Yeahyuzzz. Melee.
Smooth Criminal
Fletch
Smash Master
Don't forget Magnum or Caotic.
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