ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Thio Where Is Your Pink!?
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Brawl - More balanced than Melee? Lie or truth?
- Thread starter Yuna
- Start date
- Status
Oracle
Smash Master
You *******.
I'm only 15...
Maybe you should leave and ignore it.
Radiation
Smash Apprentice
Okay, in response to RDK quite a few pages ago even though it's kind of irrelevant now.
First of all, I didn't really clarify what my point was in my original post, which was a pretty stupid thing to do in the first place. That's my fault.
I BEAT ALL THE PEOPLE THAT DONT KNOW HOW TO PLAY WITH CAPTAIN FALCON AT MY FREINDS HOUSE A FEW MONTHS AGO I AM AN A+++++ REPUTABLE PLAYER
My point was thusly: The tiers in Melee make a large difference between equally skilled players, but the presence of deep mindgames, ATs, and huge room for improvement decreased the meaning of tiers between players as they improve past each other. The tiers in Brawl are closer, but the lack of anything but mindgames causes the room for improvement to be VERY small, meaning that as the game approaches its competitive peak it becomes more and more broken.
Both games are broken. Brawl's quickly becoming more broken than Melee, which is sad because the "middle tier" is balanced pretty well in my opinion. It's like a double-decker sexy sandwich between two loaves of glass. It looks delicious, it tastes delicious, then you chomp in and feel the blood on your tongue and you realize that it's BROKEN.
And about the Link/Dorf Melee thing - All I mentioned is that Melee was honestly pretty broken from the start. Doesn't mean that a great Link/Ganondorf/Luigi/other "low-tier" skilled player can't beat someone playing as Fox or Marth who isn't completely sure how to handle the matchup and/or isn't at their competitive peak yet/as good. It just means things like Shiek vs. Bowser, or Marth vs. Mewtwo.
I also meant that for Brawl's "real" Sakurai-targeted audience, (casual players and 5-year olds that pee their pants when they get to play as a new pokemon) it appears to be balanced pretty darn well, it's just that for Melee the difference was much more evident even for people that had no idea what they were doing, like me when I just started playing many years ago. "Gut feeling of DREAD" is a pretty terrible argument, but I'm pretty sure that at least most me and my friends had it. FRIENDS WHO I BEAT... WITH CAPTAIN FALCON... IN BRAWLLLLLLLLLLLLLllllllllllllfueahfuiehaufi kidding
And who knows? Gaming scenes are allowed to evolve. Link might move up. People might realize that Mario is better than they thought. (Most people thought Peach was crap at first, but she's definitely a lot better than I first gave her credit for.) People might catch Luigi fever.
But probably not.
[edit: and even if you think my opinion is uneducated, uninformed, poorly written, or incoherent for some reason, I'm pretty sure it's a lot better than most of the "YOU SUCK" stuff in this thread. Or, at least, I think so, otherwise I wouldn't post.]
First of all, I didn't really clarify what my point was in my original post, which was a pretty stupid thing to do in the first place. That's my fault.
in response to merdk said:
Yeah, the "it SEEMS BALANCED TO ME, an unreputable player who hasn't uploaded any TOURNAEY VIDJOZ" isn't really a valid argument. To be honest, I just wanted to open up expressing my joy in the fact that at least in a casual environment, the game seems balanced. The point of my post was not "lol, i can beat snake w/ my mewtwo... except mewtwo sucsk because MELEES BROKEN..." If we're going that way, I've played as MK against my brother's Falcon/Ganondorf, it's practically impossible for him to touch me without getting punished, and as soon as he's off the edge he gets gimped into oblivion. Unless I suddenly had an aneurysm, it's a horribly hopeless matchup. OH CRAP TANGENTTHIS IS WHAT I SAID THIS MORNANG said:
I BEAT ALL THE PEOPLE THAT DONT KNOW HOW TO PLAY WITH CAPTAIN FALCON AT MY FREINDS HOUSE A FEW MONTHS AGO I AM AN A+++++ REPUTABLE PLAYER
My point was thusly: The tiers in Melee make a large difference between equally skilled players, but the presence of deep mindgames, ATs, and huge room for improvement decreased the meaning of tiers between players as they improve past each other. The tiers in Brawl are closer, but the lack of anything but mindgames causes the room for improvement to be VERY small, meaning that as the game approaches its competitive peak it becomes more and more broken.
Both games are broken. Brawl's quickly becoming more broken than Melee, which is sad because the "middle tier" is balanced pretty well in my opinion. It's like a double-decker sexy sandwich between two loaves of glass. It looks delicious, it tastes delicious, then you chomp in and feel the blood on your tongue and you realize that it's BROKEN.
And about the Link/Dorf Melee thing - All I mentioned is that Melee was honestly pretty broken from the start. Doesn't mean that a great Link/Ganondorf/Luigi/other "low-tier" skilled player can't beat someone playing as Fox or Marth who isn't completely sure how to handle the matchup and/or isn't at their competitive peak yet/as good. It just means things like Shiek vs. Bowser, or Marth vs. Mewtwo.
I also meant that for Brawl's "real" Sakurai-targeted audience, (casual players and 5-year olds that pee their pants when they get to play as a new pokemon) it appears to be balanced pretty darn well, it's just that for Melee the difference was much more evident even for people that had no idea what they were doing, like me when I just started playing many years ago. "Gut feeling of DREAD" is a pretty terrible argument, but I'm pretty sure that at least most me and my friends had it. FRIENDS WHO I BEAT... WITH CAPTAIN FALCON... IN BRAWLLLLLLLLLLLLLllllllllllllfueahfuiehaufi kidding
And who knows? Gaming scenes are allowed to evolve. Link might move up. People might realize that Mario is better than they thought. (Most people thought Peach was crap at first, but she's definitely a lot better than I first gave her credit for.) People might catch Luigi fever.
But probably not.
[edit: and even if you think my opinion is uneducated, uninformed, poorly written, or incoherent for some reason, I'm pretty sure it's a lot better than most of the "YOU SUCK" stuff in this thread. Or, at least, I think so, otherwise I wouldn't post.]
The Halloween Captain
Smash Master
Interesting post Radiation, will probably be responded to inaprropriately in spite of being accurate, because the "casual" audience was mentioned. I agree with it for the most part, but the middle tier is not balanced. Sorry. The difference between Snake and R.O.B. is the same as between R.O.B. and Pika, as between Pika and Link, and as between Link and Captain Falcon.
The extremes, however, are always exagerated.
The extremes, however, are always exagerated.
kin3tic-c4jun-3
Smash Ace
The OP was referring to tiers, meaning competative, meaning non-casual.
Yes, Brawl seems balanced in the casual point of view, but ANY game can have ANY balance if the players aren't playing it to the full extent of possibilities. It's like playing Chess using only pawns, and then claiming it's 'just as strategic as Checkers'. That argument holds almost no value in this thread.
This is not an inapropriate response. This is a response to an inapropriate comment.
BTW 1 w1nged I don't think you're sig is propped properly and it's really been bugging me.
Yes, Brawl seems balanced in the casual point of view, but ANY game can have ANY balance if the players aren't playing it to the full extent of possibilities. It's like playing Chess using only pawns, and then claiming it's 'just as strategic as Checkers'. That argument holds almost no value in this thread.
This is not an inapropriate response. This is a response to an inapropriate comment.
BTW 1 w1nged I don't think you're sig is propped properly and it's really been bugging me.
Grunt
Smash Master
You can't get much more underground than smashboards.
I love you.
Annie are you okay you okay you okay Annie
Annie are you okay you okay you okay Annie
Annie are you okay you okay you okay Annie
You've been hit by you've been struck by
a--
I see what your point was, but it sounded like something else. MY whole beef is with people who come in here and claim that they feel Brawl is more balanced based on only personal experience, and so thus it must be so.
Collective experience > personal experience. There are facts, and then there are emotions.
True, but we're not talking about whether it's balanced in casual play. Of course it's balanced in casual play, because casuals don't give one flying **** as to whether the game is balanced or not. They're playing it for a quick fix.
I also have a problem with things like this ^. Why is it so popular amongst non-competitives, or even neo-competitives, to question the established order of things? It's become fashionable now to fight against people who know what they're talking about at every twist and turn.
No, Link probably isn't going to move up. Some characters are obviously bad. No player, no matter how amazing he is, can bring to Link what he needs to overcome characters better than him, if said characters are being played smartly and to their fullest extent. MK and Snake have all-around better properties than the majority of the roster. It's fairly black and white.
Radiation is a great poster. I think he should be the spokesman for the Brawl debate since he:
-Says what he's thinking with well-formed paragraphs, considers spelling and grammar, and doesn't type in annoying fonts, sizes, or colors.
-He isn't resorting to shallow flaming when someone questions him. He's keeping his cool and fighting back with words that support him.
-He's new, so he fits into the category of "new people," People on that side can identify with him, most likely.
I agree a lot with what he said. There does seem to be a higher ceiling in Melee while a smaller one in Brawl. The conversation about casual balance seems fair enough; it's just sad that the only time that balance is fair is when people who don't care about balance are playing. I don't think that Link will ever move up in Brawl. I think that the only way characters will ever be able to circumvent the tier they are associated with will be to find an amazing exploit that will rework matchups that they didn't have the advantage in before.
For some reason though, it doesn't seem like you have a lot to go on for your Brawl favoritism. I'm waiting for the time when you reach the end of your post and say, "**** it, I love Melee more now."
-Says what he's thinking with well-formed paragraphs, considers spelling and grammar, and doesn't type in annoying fonts, sizes, or colors.
-He isn't resorting to shallow flaming when someone questions him. He's keeping his cool and fighting back with words that support him.
-He's new, so he fits into the category of "new people," People on that side can identify with him, most likely.
I agree a lot with what he said. There does seem to be a higher ceiling in Melee while a smaller one in Brawl. The conversation about casual balance seems fair enough; it's just sad that the only time that balance is fair is when people who don't care about balance are playing. I don't think that Link will ever move up in Brawl. I think that the only way characters will ever be able to circumvent the tier they are associated with will be to find an amazing exploit that will rework matchups that they didn't have the advantage in before.
For some reason though, it doesn't seem like you have a lot to go on for your Brawl favoritism. I'm waiting for the time when you reach the end of your post and say, "**** it, I love Melee more now."
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Corey but Brawl has SONIC.
<.<
XD
I like melee more but brawl has some of the characters that I feel should have been in melee T_T
<.<
XD
I like melee more but brawl has some of the characters that I feel should have been in melee T_T
kin3tic-c4jun-3
Smash Ace
We're not talking about casual though! We're talking about what IS. While Radiation posted respectably (almost), all he's saying is that it FEELS balanced to him and what COULD happen. RDK already made some good points about this.
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
yes, but we have to give Radiation points for not dragging it on with Yuna for 5 pages full long text walls. >__>
I'm not part of the SBR, so I can't really say what their reasonings are for not releasing standard rules / lists yet.
Because they're apparently going to announce some kind of new way of playing Smash, possibly with two Stage Strikes and a new way of picking the first stage. It's still in testing and stuff. At least that's what I've heard.
And who knows why the SBR does what they do? We cannot say for sure that our perception of Brawl at the moment won't change. But it most probably won't change at all drastically unless some new ATs that literally break the game gets found out. And we're not gonna hold our breaths and say "It's too early to say anything" 'til that does or does not happen.
It's not too early at all.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
its not too early to say anything but rather,
its too early to start applying anything. Is that what you mean Yuna?
its too early to start applying anything. Is that what you mean Yuna?
It's not too early for anything. We're not saying what we're saying will never change. We just saying that it probably won't drastically. Enough time has passed to make an educated guess.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Ah okay I wasn't 100% sure on what you were saying for a moment.
Bah I blame lack of sleep.
Bah I blame lack of sleep.
If the tier list changes 5% every year (Like a few characters switch around, some move up, some move down). Then it would take 10 years for the tiers just to change drastic enough to really mess things up that we have now. I don't even see that happening. It will probably go: Year 1- 7%, Year 2- 5%, Year 3- 4%, etc.
I don't think it will change dramatically in the six or seven years we can expect this game to be out.
I don't think it will change dramatically in the six or seven years we can expect this game to be out.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
I agree on that.
Kinda sad.
unless we found something similar to wavedashing and L canceling.
Kinda sad.
unless we found something similar to wavedashing and L canceling.
Yes, something like that could impact a lot of things. If you found a tech that affects a large number of characters (Like 25 or more), then it would certainly do something. However, it looks like a situation a long those lines is bleak.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Indeed
As long as it affected even just the characters that are below high tier would help things greatly.
Sadly only thing we've found remotely game breaking is the infinite cape.
As long as it affected even just the characters that are below high tier would help things greatly.
Sadly only thing we've found remotely game breaking is the infinite cape.
JrdnS
Smash Ace
that would be one of the best things that could happen. but its very unlikely. brawl is all character specific ATs.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
ir rather, if the character AT's were better in terms of balance.
Hell I've heard people call DAC Snake dashing despite the fact that every other character can do it too!
Hell I've heard people call DAC Snake dashing despite the fact that every other character can do it too!
BlackSmoke
Smash Cadet
<_< yeah saw this on some youtube vids...
IrArby
Smash Ace
Cause his is the best. His has the most/best applications. Character Specific Techs are in general bad since it means that most chars won't have one (or at least a good one) since thats the job of the testers to remove them.
Character Specific Techs = (generally speaking) bad for balance.
*waits for THC to disagree
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Yeah but Link has the 2nd best DAC as well yet no one remembers T_T
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
thats cause link is link sadly...... 
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
My poor main...
Endless Nightmares
Smash Master
Not Wario?
The Halloween Captain
Smash Master
No I agree. Mainly because all the techs seem to help high tier characters the most.
Actually, the number of character specific Brawl techs which help the higher tiers is startling. I can't figure out how it is that by pure chance, high tier characters seem to have the most practical ATs (as in, characters that were already superior prior to the techs being found).
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Is ay Link's DAC is better because it has more range, more priority and can be comboed into after a Zair~Bomb for an easy 35% damage at lower percents
And can consistently be combed into up 311.
And can consistently be combed into up 311.
Everything in Brawl is by pure chance. Sakurai and his minions have no grasp of what's balanced and not balanced and these ATs are for the most part obvious glitches, so it's not like he programmed them into the game on purpose.
I'm going to give you a hint:
You can add these to Brawl and the game would still be bad and unbalanced.
???
It makes perfect sense to me that the higher tiered characters would also be the ones with the most effective AT's.
The Halloween Captain
Smash Master
And I question chance.
Why is it that the most useful ATs help the most popular tournament characters the most?
Come to think of it, why are the most notably powerful characters happen to be primarily blue or black? Snake, MK, GW, ...D3... Falco, Marth ...R.O.B....
It might be chance, it might have something to do with character popularity. suppose Pikachu is of equal ability to Marth. Marth is more popular, though, so he is more used. Then, Marth would have a higher tier placement.
Here's a little food for thought on the color thing - Certain personalities are attracted to certain colors. Red attracts the emotionally distressed, yellow for those who want power (ironic that Pikachu is yellow), and blue for the intelligent. If blue is the most appealling color for the intelligent, it explains why Falco and Marth are so popular among those who possess the most ability - and thus the most knowledgable - in smash.
TheAceOfSmash
Smash Apprentice
I can understand why the gap between good and bad characters seems bigger. There are more characters this time around.
I can also see why people call this game more balanced than Melee. The game engine is fixed so that speedy characters don't have a ridiculous advantage due to being able to string together hits without the opponent having a chance to fight back (Or at least they tried).
And I can see why one could argue that the game isn't as balanced as it seems. Characters attacks. Their properties. Their priorities. Some characters have attacks that are situational going on useless, while others don't. Which further increases said gap.
But it is indeed to soon to tell. It's barely been a year. Things will change. Our view on this game, the metagame thereof, the tier list. Everything.
I can also see why people call this game more balanced than Melee. The game engine is fixed so that speedy characters don't have a ridiculous advantage due to being able to string together hits without the opponent having a chance to fight back (Or at least they tried).
And I can see why one could argue that the game isn't as balanced as it seems. Characters attacks. Their properties. Their priorities. Some characters have attacks that are situational going on useless, while others don't. Which further increases said gap.
But it is indeed to soon to tell. It's barely been a year. Things will change. Our view on this game, the metagame thereof, the tier list. Everything.
More used =/= Better
19,000 people can use Captain Falcon tomorrow and he'd still be **** and he'd still scrape the bottom of the Tier list.
No. Guilty Gear XX#Reload had, what, 24 or something characters and it's oodles more balanced than, say, Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike with roughly the same amount of characters.
And nobody cares about things "seem" to be. We care about verifiable facts. You'd noticed that I immediately shoot down anyone using the word "it seems" in this thread if you'd read, oh, the last page.
Blind optimism. Just because things can change doesn't mean it will. I'm sure there'll be minor changes but save for the discover of something game-breaking, it won't be changing much. Also, old and done to death.
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