Brawl - More balanced than Melee? Lie or truth?

[CStrife187]

eyestrain, if you read this I'm sorry that you were picked on by the more mean members of this community.

Apology notwithstanding, you were wrong on about everything you mentioned as fact and that's why people were mean to you. waveshining wasn't a 1HKO, whereas more than one technique has been discovered in Brawl that is (virtually and theoretically) a 1HKO.

The problem, however, lies not in the number of broken techniques, but in the poor balance between characters. Because Mewtwo stood a far better chance of beating fox in melee than C. Falcon stands of beating Snake in Brawl, Melee was more balanced.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Scrub? I'm out of this thread. It reeks of bias.

I think the problem here might be lack of experience in some of the more promiment figures if my point is immediately discarded. Your shotgun/sniper analogy is way off from my point. Skill usually results in a win, regardless of character.

I think you should play some people who can actually use underused characters. Goodbye.

Please leave, we don't need your already stated and silly arguments that have been shot down multiple times.

 

[Fletch]

Seeing as the game has only been out for five months, I'd guess that you couldn't possibly have a full understanding of the cast already. Also, there is a reason I mentioned Pikachu, and not Captain Falcon.

First Ike was great. Then Wolf. Then Snake. Then GW suddenly shot up the tier list. Do I really have to explain tier evolution to you, Yuna? You were around to see the opinions fluctuate since Brawl's release.

You're drunk.

 

[DMG]

I'll just throw my personal thoughts out here, I'm not interested in getting into a "Melee vs Brawl" war however, so don't label me as someone who is for or against a particular side.


Melee's AT's were (for the most part) applicable for every character. Every character, from Fox and Falco, to Pichu and Mewtwo, could Wave dash, SHFFL, Dash Dance, and so on and so forth. The main differences in tiers for Melee was from each character's individual potential from using said AT's and combining them with potential for combos/kills. Some characters had better applications for Wavedashing, some characters had better applications for SHFFLing, and then there were other factors like the characters actual range, recovery, kill power, etc.


Think about it like this: You gather 30 people (characters) in a room and you give them each a wooden block (AT). The goal is to carve something nice out of it (Getting a kill, or getting them very close to a kill). Each Wooden block is completely identical to the rest (Each character can use the AT like Wave dash or shffl). Now naturally, some people will be better at carving (They have Better applications/better character physics) than others, but there are no complaints about not getting a block (No character is really excluded from the universal AT's).


The main thing is that the characters, on their own, were pretty balanced and that even with the introduction of AT's that were universal to every character, that the game was still not too greatly lob sided. The Melee AT's gave better fighting chances to every character, since no particular character was excluded from Wavedashing and such. It gave Fox and Falco and other characters a pretty large advantage, but SHFFLing and Wavedashing also gave lower characters a boost too.


It's kinda like giving everyone the same exact car and making them race: Even though everyone has the same type of car, some people are bound to be better drivers than the rest. It's bound to happen for every fighting game, to have certain characters that are considered better than the others, but they should be better from either AT's or from better applications of the game physics that are hard to accurately predict. They should not be leagues better if you can clearly see their abilities, with nothing complicated or deep like AT's to worry about, and Sakurai failed in that aspect of balancing.


Now lets take a look at Brawl: there are not any real universal AT's for the characters to share. No one has a wooden block, no one has a car, there's not really much except for personal characteristics, like who has the best range or who can kill the best or who has the least amount of lag. In Melee, you could usually work around your characters personal weaknesses to a certain extent: even though Pichu wasn't really spectacular, he could still **** people like Fox and Falco with Shffld uairs.


In Brawl, there's not very many options when it comes to getting around your character's weaknesses. If your character has crap range, there's no AT that will remotely help your range weakness (Wario is an extreme exception, he's one of the few that has bad range and is still considered High/upper Tier). If you had to go up against Snake's Ftilt in Melee, you could maybe Wavedash away and counter him afterward. In Brawl, there's not very many safe/effective options for dealing with a move like Snake's Ftilt, certainly there are not effective options that are also available to every single character.


Since Sakurai took out things like Wavedashing and Shffling, he should have realized that the characters would have to be more balanced to offset the lack of AT's that helped every character. Otherwise, it just boils down to who has the better physical stats, and that's pretty easy to identify since there are not any deep/strategic techniques for every character that could possibly obscure your view on who is balanced or not.

By attempting to make the game less complicated/less strategically deep, he inadvertently also made Brawl less balanced in the process.

Edit: Therefore, in my opinion, it seems reasonable to say that Brawl is less balanced than Melee. They both are not balanced obviously, but it seems silly to say that Melee is more unbalanced between the two. Oh, and I don't wanna hear anyone call me stuff like "Melee Fan boy" or "Brawl Hater" or whatever: I'm not taking a particular side since I happen to enjoy both games enough to not bicker over that.

 

[Falconv1.0]

I think you should play some people who can actually use underused characters. Goodbye.

*****. PLEASE.

I ****ING MAIN LUCARIO AND SHEIK. AND I SECONDARY ZSS AND GANON. I know quite a freaking bit about UNDERUSED.

And uh, no, my shotgun/sniper point works. There are characters that have an advantage over another. Say if I knew a somewhat more skilled player than me, and we *insert character* dittos, he would be the one likely to win. Now say if I chose a character who just ***** his character up and down, he'd be kinda ****ed. Now replace him with a guy MUCH better than me, then he has a chance. But the idea you must be loads better to win with a certain character means there are some definite things holding said char from being as good as the top characters.

An equally skilled Marth will always beat the Yoshi player, end of story. The fact you twist that around to make it seem everyone is viable REEKS of scrubness.


@Dr.Marioguy-Very good example, high five.

 

[Tudor]

If he's owning people as Samus, then there's not very good, no matter how good Tudor is. The others just are worse/not good.


HugS stopped playing Samus because Tudor is good? Yes, I can see the logic there.

Your logic is flawed if you think I'm not playing good players. Vegas is really good at brawl, to prove this we have won and placed very high at every out of state tourney we've gone to. The most recent being OMG where the two people who went from Vegas took first and second in singles and won teams.

HugS didn't stop playing Samus because I am good, he told everyone why he stopped playing her weeks ago. And I quote;

Tudor has the best samus I have seen.

The main thing I hate about brawl is the New Nerfed version of Samus. In my frustration, I realized that I could either quit samus, or quit smash.

I love samus, but I love smash more. Sadly, I had to make the switch.

 

[metaXzero]

I don't see how that means "HugS quit Samus because Tudor is too good with her." Looks more like "HugS quit Samus because he hates her Brawl version."

 

[DMG]

@Dr.Marioguy-Very good example, high five.

Lol I think mine was too complicated but as long as people got the message then it's ok I guess.

 

[Tudor]

I don't see how that means "HugS quit Samus because Tudor is too good with her." Looks more like "HugS quit Samus because he hates her Brawl version."

Yah that's what i said >.<

HugS didn't stop playing Samus because I am good

 

[Fawriel]

Yah that's what i said >.<

I don't think he was directing that at you, but the guy who suggested the opposite in the first place.

Samus' nerfs are one of the main things that disturb me as well, and I'm not even much of a fan. It's just, like, I know Hanlon's razor tells you to never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity, but her new down-b and side-b and nair and... everything... That's not stupidity anymore, that's a borderline misogynist message.

...also, HI TUDOR! *WAVES*

 

[Dj Chopin]

in response to dr. mario guy, i want to remind you that no one programmed wavedashing or any of the other universal ATs into melee consciously. so the balance argument doesnt really hold, they spent quite a bit of time balancing the characters when they made melee because they didnt even know what wavedashing was yet. its the SAME story for brawl. they remove the universal ATs and ATTEMPT to balance the characters. now its our job to figure out the quirks in this game, which most people are realizing are character specific. the tier lists continue to evolve, and who knows, maybe there is a universal AT to come.

wavedashing was not common in the first 1-2 years of melee. i would go to tournaments and see very little of it until a couple years passed and it had become a requirement.

 

[Fletch]

in response to dr. mario guy, i want to remind you that no one programmed wavedashing or any of the other universal ATs into melee consciously. so the balance argument doesnt really hold, they spent quite a bit of time balancing the characters when they made melee because they didnt even know what wavedashing was yet. its the SAME story for brawl. they remove the universal ATs and ATTEMPT to balance the characters. now its our job to figure out the quirks in this game, which most people are realizing are character specific. the tier lists continue to evolve, and who knows, maybe there is a universal AT to come.

wavedashing was not common in the first 1-2 years of melee. i would go to tournaments and see very little of it until a couple years passed and it had become a requirement.

What was intentional matters not. All that matters is what we do with the game.

 

[VandalKING]

How do you get banned from a community?

I got banned from the forums, so I guess that means I was banned from the community, but not from the PnT tourneys.

And about Tudor and HugS, I knew I was missing an important detail from that. My bad, seriously. Ignore that part of my last post.

But see Yuna? You aren't always right. Vegas has really good Smashers, and you shouldn't call people "no names" just because YOU don't know them.

 

[DMG]

in response to dr. mario guy, i want to remind you that no one programmed wavedashing or any of the other universal ATs into melee consciously. so the balance argument doesnt really hold, they spent quite a bit of time balancing the characters when they made melee because they didnt even know what wavedashing was yet. its the SAME story for brawl. they remove the universal ATs and ATTEMPT to balance the characters. now its our job to figure out the quirks in this game, which most people are realizing are character specific. the tier lists continue to evolve, and who knows, maybe there is a universal AT to come.

wavedashing was not common in the first 1-2 years of melee. i would go to tournaments and see very little of it until a couple years passed and it had become a requirement.

K hold on let me see if I can get this right:

L canceling was in SSB64. Some people referred to it as Z Canceling, some called it L canceling, basically it refers to the same thing. Dash Dancing was also in SSB64, as well as crouch canceling.

In Melee, all of these things were present, and many of them were amplified so that their effects were even greater. I mean, they tried balancing the game some through other means, but it seems evident that they did not attempt to remove those particular aspects/tone them down at all. Either they purposefully made them have a greater effect, or they inadvertently increased their usefulness. It seems very unlikely that they did this unknowingly/inadvertently, but I will not discard any possibilities to the side.

Wavedashing is not a bug or a glitch IMO, it is more of an exploit of physics than an undesirable programing error; it seems more of an oversight instead of a glitch, if they truly did not intend for Wavedashing to be in the game. I read somewhere, however, that the game developers/testers possibly knew about Wavedashing and decided to let it pass through unscathed with the game into the market. I don't really care whether or not the developers knew about it before hand, but it certainly is interesting to know that it is possible they allowed it to stay/knew about it beforehand.

Now lets look at Brawl: There is ample evidence that they went to great lengths to remove or greatly reduce the effects of Melee AT's. Wavedashing is gone, they changed the entire air dodging system just to avoid Wavedashing possibilities for Brawl. Either that, or they were planning to change it in the first place and it just so happens that now Wavedashing is impossible with the new physics.

L Canceling is obviously absent, either that or the timing is much stricter, or even maybe it is possible you can L cancel but it only speeds you up 2 frames or something like that. It seems safe to say at this point however, that L Canceling is either completely gone or its effects have been greatly reduced.

Dash Dancing is stricter on frames and it makes it likely that you will trip from going back and forth with dashes, thus reducing its usefulness even more. Crouch Canceling is also nowhere near as potent as it was in Melee, yet another AT they toned down.

So if most of that stuff was already in SSB64, and Wavedashing was a new addition for Melee (while it is possible that they even knew about it and allowed it to stay), and the older ATs were amplified in effect in Melee, then why did they tone down/take away AT's for Brawl only? If they were really trying to balance Melee, like they have tried to balance Brawl, then all of the AT's I mentioned would probably cease to exist anymore period.

Point is, if they were really working their butts off to balance Melee, then it would seem likely that they would have limited the AT's instead of making them better. They worked considerably less on balancing Melee, and it turned out pretty ok IMO. They worked their as*** off trying to tinker/destroy the AT's for Brawl, and now Brawl has become an unbalanced mess compared to Melee IMO.

I just find that a bit ironic that Melee turned out more balanced than Brawl, when they were obviously trying a lot harder on balancing Brawl than Melee.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

I wouldn't read to much into what the developers choose to ignore/didn't notice when making melee. Wasn't melee pretty rushed?

Yes, I find that a little ironic myself, now that you mention it dr.mario guy

I am not sure if it was melee's depth or actual balance of characters that made melee so balanced. Is melee more balanced than Brawl because its metagame is more evolved? If dj chopin is correct in saying wavedashing was rare in the first few years of melee, then in the first few years of Brawl it is likely that the metagame won't compare to melee's seven year old metagame. After all, ISJR is completely untapped, which would give Jiggs a boost if utilized correctly.

 

[Tudor]

...also, HI TUDOR! *WAVES*

Haha, HI!!!!!! =)

 

[Endless Nightmares]

I enjoy Brawl and have more fun playing it than Melee, but I always wonder what Brawl would be like if the devs hadn't focused so much on SSE, stickers and trophies.

Sometimes I think SSE should've been it's own game separate from Brawl lol

 

[metaXzero]

THC and DJ Chopin. You have to remember that the community at Melee's launch was MUCH smaller and less knowledgeable about finding ATs then the one now. With Brawl, the metagame will develop much faster then Melee's. But the ceiling is inherently closer to the ground.

ISJR would be really useful if
1. It wasn't so impractically hard to do.
2. If second jumps weren't so high.
3 (mainly) . If it canceled attack landing lag.
It only cancels standard landing lag and start-up lag for jumping (which isn't even that bad for most characters). This severely undermines its uses.

And WDing was discovered months after Melee's released and its application a few more months later.

 

[metaXzero]

I enjoy Brawl and have more fun playing it than Melee, but I always wonder what Brawl would be like if the devs hadn't focused so much on SSE, stickers and trophies.

Sometimes I think SSE should've been it's own game separate from Brawl lol

This thread is about Brawl's character balance VS. Melee's lol

 

[IrArby]

The evidence thus far shows us that the focus of Melee was to put out another fun Smash Game. They is no conclusive evidence that Melee was made with any special intentions of making it more balanced or even more casual than its 64 predecessor. Brawl on the other hand, had much more, arguably, too much time put in to it including a lot of time balancing characters and removing the skill gap by removing ATs.

They're attempts to balance it were obvious failures but they succeeded mostly to eliminate the majority of skill intensive AT and the like. To develop the metagame of Brawl further, which is proving to be somewhat limited and one-sided, would further unbalance the game in favor of the already standing high/top tier chars.

ISJR isn't intentional. If the testers had discovered it, they would've gotten rid of it just like DashDancing, CrouchCanceling, etc.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

What is ISJR then? I can't figure out what about the trick allows it to be possible. Wave-dashing - Use the air dodge into the ground to transfer the momentum into a slide. Dash-dancing - cancel the pivot animation by going back and forth between the run-start animation. MK infinite dimentional cape - Use the longer Dimention cape into the ground multiple times while still in the invisible animation because of the extra frames of invisibility granted when the cape is done into the ground. ISJR (and DAC) - ??????

 

[metaXzero]

Inexplicable glitches (Like (In Melee) Link's Super Jump, Samus' Super Wave Dash and G&W's Kamikaze glitch.)

 

[Winston]

I enjoy Brawl and have more fun playing it than Melee, but I always wonder what Brawl would be like if the devs hadn't focused so much on SSE, stickers and trophies.

Sometimes I think SSE should've been it's own game separate from Brawl lol

I don't understand your sig then O.o (the ssb>melee>nothing>brawl)

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Inexplicable glitches (Like (In Melee) Link's Super Jump, Samus' Super Wave Dash and G&W's Kamikaze glitch.)

Sorry, not familiar with them. I'll have to look them up.

 

[Winston]

Sorry, not familiar with them. I'll have to look them up.

here are a lot of random melee glitches (as well as other things), including the aforementioned link and samus ones:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Y57Yq6tEq9w

great video.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

That actually explains exactly how a glitch with no apparent explanation can occur. Thanks!

 

[AlexX]

ISJR isn't intentional. If the testers had discovered it, they would've gotten rid of it just like DashDancing, CrouchCanceling, etc.

What about the fact stale moves is more punishing than in Melee due to reducing knockback as well as damage? Would you say that was intentional, or a glitch?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

What about the fact stale moves is more punishing than in Melee due to reducing knockback as well as damage? Would you say that was intentional, or a glitch?

Hmmmmmm...let's compare the two, shall we?

One gives you infinite jumps. Not very obvious and a very contradicting happenstance to the game's natural physics.

The other, well...is a facet of the game that is dually noted by outside observers and the idiot savants over at Nintendo ala the Smash Dojo. Now, I'm not perpetuating that "if it's not in the manual, then it shouldn't be in the game;" what I am saying is that the damage reduction and the knockback reduction are a natural part of the engine and it is very evident to anybody. The ISJR COULD be a manipulation of the game's physics, for all we know...but it's not as glaringly obvious like wavedashing was, where it was a simply a momentum-based thing.

Smooth Criminal

 

[AlexX]

Hmmmmmm...let's compare the two, shall we?

One gives you infinite jumps. Not very obvious and a very contradicting happenstance to the game's natural physics.

The other, well...is a facet of the game that is dually noted by outside observers and the idiot savants over at Nintendo ala the Smash Dojo. Now, I'm not perpetuating that "if it's not in the manual, then it shouldn't be in the game;" what I am saying is that the damage reduction and the knockback reduction are a natural part of the engine and it is very evident to anybody. The ISJR COULD be a manipulation of the game's physics, for all we know...but it's not as glaringly obvious like wavedashing was, where it was a simply a momentum-based thing.

Well, the reason I brought it up was because it was something that only really impacts competative play... Casual players won't really care or notice it, and therefore will probably not bother learning ways around it.

 

[Fawriel]

I just find that a bit ironic that Melee turned out more balanced than Brawl, when they were obviously trying a lot harder on balancing Brawl than Melee.

No.

No, they were not.

Unless the whole team had a combined IQ of a bowl of Skittles, or some groups of characters were developed by a separate team of people who were kept in solid metal cages and were fed through a tube, that just isn't possible.

 

[AlexX]

No.

No, they were not.

Unless the whole team had a combined IQ of a bowl of Skittles, or some groups of characters were developed by a separate team of people who were kept in solid metal cages and were fed through a tube, that just isn't possible.

Melee's balance in the competative scene mostly comes from unintentional ATs and stuff left over from Smash 64, does it not?

It's entirely possible...

 

[illboyzeus]

wavedashing=intentional
L-canceling=intentional

those two techs pretty much make melee, sooooo yeah

 

[AlexX]

wavedashing=intentional
L-canceling=intentional

those two techs pretty much make melee, sooooo yeah

L-cancelling was still in from Smash 64 and I'm pretty sure Wavedashing was unintentional.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

wavedashing=intentional
L-canceling=intentional

those two techs pretty much make melee, sooooo yeah

Actually wavedashing was an unintentional byproduct. They just didn't think it was that big of a deal and left it in the game.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

As far as I know, they discovered Wavedashing before the game was released but decided to leave it the way we know it know. It was unintentional though.

L-canceling...i think it was intentional in Melee. You could do it in SSB64 after all but they still left it in Melee, though

 

[metaXzero]

Sliding from an air-dodge was intentional due to the way Melee's momentum physics work (they had to program that you land when you air-dodge to the ground at some point, and the physics would transfer the momentum into the ground). How we use WDing to gain an advantage in a match however, that was unintentional.

 

[DMG]

(This is gonna be a lot of Text, so bear with me as I try to break it down into mini paragraphs)

The developers tried to balance Melee and Brawl, and maybe they worked equally hard/long on balancing for each game, but it's clear that their focus/actions of balancing shifted from one game to the next.

For example, in Melee, they focused on the individual characters more than the AT's that they definitely were aware of, like L Canceling, Dash Dancing, and Crouch Canceling. They pretty much left those alone and worked on trying to make the actual character traits balanced, like range, power, recovery, weight, Etc.

Now obviously it would have been hard to make a perfectly balanced game, and there are noticeable flaws everywhere (Dr. Mario gets a crappy recovery while Samus, Jiggs, and others get awesome distance), but it looks like, IMO, that there are not any moves/characters that tip the scales dramatically if you are just comparing each character/move without any AT's in play.

No one had the equivalent of Snake's Ftilt or Utilt, no one had the equivalent of MK's Upb or Wario's Waft. The true unbalances only start to develop once you throw in Wave Dashing, L Canceling, and the rest.





Now for Brawl, their attention shifted greatly from the characters to the AT's. Yeah, they worked on the characters as well, they didn't completely forget about them, but it seems they were more intent on destroying/toning down the AT's. In their minds, maybe they thought that the AT's were to blame for the unbalances in Melee, and in a way they were right. There's no way Fox would be top tier without L canceling and Wavedashing. Maybe they thought we could get around Snake's Ftilt range on our own, without very many tools except for the actual character.

Maybe they thought the characters in Melee were balanced well enough, and that for Brawl all they needed to focus on was removing the AT's from play and that would fix everything, that the characters were balanced on their own. Maybe they were challenging us, the Smash Community, to make Brawl competitive without any AT's for everyone to use.

Idk what exactly they were thinking, but it seems like they were so engulfed with a passion to remove AT's that they forgot an important point: That without AT's for everyone, that everything from that point on would boil down to who had the best character traits.

Now IDK how Snake's Ftilt or Dedede's CG got approved for this game, they seem easy to spot, but whatever I don't have the time to write an angry letter to Nintendo. It's just frustrating to know that the game is unbalanced because of things that should/could have easily been spotted, instead of being unbalanced from things like AT's or hard to predict variables.



Now my take on the Melee vs Brawl fiasco, and no I'm still not picking a side:

I think this Melee vs Brawl thing started because of this: In Melee, if you were at the top or very close to the top, you got respect everywhere. If you were good with a low tier character and won some tournaments or placed well, you got respect. Melee was a respectable fighter game, it wasn't scoffed at that much and when it was, it was from unappeased critics.

Then Brawl came out... People were disappointed left and right, expectations were not met, and in a way people lost a lot of respect for the Smash series. Their hatred/disappointment towards Brawl, in a way, was inadvertently directed at not just Brawl, but the series in whole. Now, instead of going back to Melee and forgetting about Brawl, a large number of people just flat out gave up on Smash as a whole and quit. The Melee community was already reaching it's plateau it seems, and when someone would win a tourney, there wasn't nearly as much respect given to them as before.

The Melee people lashed out, condoning Brawl as an inferior fighting game. Now, people were already largely disappointed with Brawl, and having a lot of the Melee top scorn Brawl didn't help it much either. The winners of Brawl tournaments were probably expecting the same amount of respect that the Melee people got way before Brawl, and when no one would give them that amount of respect, they got mad as well.

The Brawl guys probably saw things like this: when a crew would go to a Melee tournament and one of the guys wins 1st, the guy would turn around and say "F*** yeah, lets go to a strip club" or "Alright, dinner's on me." If a crew went to a Brawl tournament and one of the guys wins 1st, it's more like "D*** I'm tired of this s***, let's just go home."

Basically it seems like a respect war: Melee guys are mad at the Brawl community for diminishing the respect they worked for and the Brawl guys are mad at the Melee community for talking down about Brawl and making people treat the game as if it was all about luck instead of skill.




These are all just my thoughts, and I'm not picking a side, so you can give up recruiting me for either army. It's 9:30, I'm drinking a nice blend of Tea and I'm too tired to give a f*** right now.

 

[kin3tic-c4jun-3]

I'm drinking whiskey.

Dr. Mario guy, I think you're utterly wrong, and I don't understand why you would bring up this 'respect' fariytale.

I don't think there is a respect war, actually. I simply believe that Brawl is less technical than Melee! I don't think people realize this. There are less AT's, it's slower, and there are just so many minor things added to make the game easier.


It doesn't come down to ideals, it doesn't come down to nations or beliefs... I'm focusing on the GAMES right here in front of me, and the difference between the two. People play to PLAY. Competition is a well-oiled machine. (Yes, I've been playing mgs4)

So, back on-topic, with less AT's to use and the lack of L-cancel/wavedash, is it fair to say that characters no longer have enough options to counter the 'better' characters? See, with L-cancel/wavedashing, I could beat a medioker Marth with my skilled Link. In Brawl terms, it's more like........ My skilled Link MIGHT ALMOST beat someone's medioker Snake. That's because... I have almost nothing to really give me that EDGE!! I can't increase the speed of his recoveries... I can't increase his RECOVERY anymore for that matter...

Does this sound right to you guys?

 

[Falconv1.0]

I'm drinking whiskey.

Dr. Mario guy, I think you're utterly wrong, and I don't understand why you would bring up this 'respect' fariytale.

I don't think there is a respect war, actually. I simply believe that Brawl is less technical than Melee! I don't think people realize this. There are less AT's, it's slower, and there are just so many minor things added to make the game easier.


It doesn't come down to ideals, it doesn't come down to nations or beliefs... I'm focusing on the GAMES right here in front of me, and the difference between the two. People play to PLAY. Competition is a well-oiled machine. (Yes, I've been playing mgs4)

So, back on-topic, with less AT's to use and the lack of L-cancel/wavedash, is it fair to say that characters no longer have enough options to counter the 'better' characters? See, with L-cancel/wavedashing, I could beat a medioker Marth with my skilled Link. In Brawl terms, it's more like........ My skilled Link MIGHT ALMOST beat someone's medioker Snake. That's because... I have almost nothing to really give me that EDGE!! I can't increase the speed of his recoveries... I can't increase his RECOVERY anymore for that matter...

Does this sound right to you guys?

He brought up a valid point, and you didn't even really counter it. When he said that the top melee players got more respect than top Brawl players, he's right. And why even call it a fairy tale if your next sentence goes into a different topic.


And it's mediocre. kk

"I don't think there is a respect war, actually. I simply believe that Brawl is less technical than Melee! I don't think people realize this."

I think we realized it was less technical before the god **** thing shipped, dude.

 

[kin3tic-c4jun-3]

So much heat lol...

He brought up a valid point, and you didn't even really counter it. When he said that the top melee players got more respect than top Brawl players, he's right. And why even call it a fairy tale if your next sentence goes into a different topic.

But, we're talking about balance on this thread, not who respects who. Like I said, respect doesn't matter - it's what's balanced, and what's not balanced.

I think we realized it was less technical before the god **** thing shipped, dude.

Oh? And you don't think that we need to give the game time AFTER it ships to FIND the AT's that are REALLY useful or not, do you?