Brawl - More balanced than Melee? Lie or truth?

[The Halloween Captain]

More used =/= Better

19,000 people can use Captain Falcon tomorrow and he'd still be **** and he'd still scrape the bottom of the Tier list.

More used = Better understood

 

[Yuna]

More used = Better understood

Yes, and? The metagames of the lesser used characters will just evolve at a slower pace. It doesn't really mean much if they don't actually evolve into something good.

If you're so sure a lot of characters' tier placements are wrong, prove us wrong. You go and develop their apparently abundant potential. Some of us can look at a character and accurately gauge their potential. We're just that awesome.

 

[SwastikaPyle]

Well, how many people thought Marth was useless in Melee until Ken came along?

Nearly everyone on smashboards regards Samus as a useless character this time around. Take a look at some vids of Tudor and you start thinking, "Holy ****, there's some potential there."

 

[Yuna]

Well, how many people thought Marth was useless in Melee until Ken came along?

* The community was young
* The community was tiny
* The "old pros" came from 64, a game notorious for lacking technique
* The community didn't actively search for techniques and their uses
* No one sat around ready to pounce in newly discovered techniques to explore their potential
* This was 7 friggin' years ago (well, 6 for Ken's debut)

Needless to say, the community is nothing like that now (well, there are many like that, and those who are just plain stupid, but there are many who aren't).

Nearly everyone on smashboards regards Samus as a useless character this time around. Take a look at some vids of Tudor and you start thinking, "Holy ****, there's some potential there."

Yes, because vids of a single player being able to play a character well (against no name players) when no one else can is proof of everything. Why isn't everyone replicating it? Heck, HugS is still maining Samus unless I'm mistaken. If Samus has so much hidden potential, shouldn't HugS be pioneering new ways of playing her, boosting her image?

No, Samus will be Low.

 

[VandalKING]

You're hella argumentative Yuna, lol. This topics been going on since I was a lurker.

Brawl isn't as balanced as Melee, plain fact. But they both have balance issues in general. Brawl has more characters, but the way the are built are really shoddy. Same with Melee.

In Brawl, all characters can compete at high level play, but there are some that are obviously better than others, with applied AT's of course. In Melee, only some characters are actually good in high level play. In Melee, with or without AT's, some characters were just plain GARBAGE.

All in all. Both games aren't balanced, IMO.

And Yuna, don't call people no names. I come from the community which Tudor plays in, and if you saw how good some of the players are, you'd be more respectful. He's a hella good Samus, and IIRC, HuGs stopped playing Samus because of how good Tudor is. I can't bring proof, cuz' I was banned from the community a few weeks ago.

 

[AlexX]

I'm going to give you a hint:

You can add these to Brawl and the game would still be bad and unbalanced.

Unbalanced maybe, but since when does being less competative make a game bad?

 

[Igneous42]

I can understand why the gap between good and bad characters seems bigger. There are more characters this time around.

I can also see why people call this game more balanced than Melee. The game engine is fixed so that speedy characters don't have a ridiculous advantage due to being able to string together hits without the opponent having a chance to fight back (Or at least they tried).

And I can see why one could argue that the game isn't as balanced as it seems. Characters attacks. Their properties. Their priorities. Some characters have attacks that are situational going on useless, while others don't. Which further increases said gap.

But it is indeed to soon to tell. It's barely been a year. Things will change. Our view on this game, the metagame thereof, the tier list. Everything.

Actually it has barely been 6 months........Brawl came out in Japan on what Jan 24 right?

Unbalanced maybe, but since when does being less competative make a game bad?

While I'm most definitely not the most competative player, a multiplayer game being less competative hurts it. In a game like smash the competitiveness is what drives it. It's the reason they only had to make one Smash on both the N64 and GCN (and I doubt we'll see a second wii smash) yet there are at least 4 mario parties on both the N64 and GCN.

 

[Yuna]

In Brawl, all characters can compete at high level play, but there are some that are obviously better than others, with applied AT's of course. In Melee, only some characters are actually good in high level play. In Melee, with or without AT's, some characters were just plain GARBAGE.

Wrong, wrong, wrong and wrong. No, I don't feel like repeating myself for the 9001th times, so I'm just going to stick with "wrong".

And Yuna, don't call people no names. I come from the community which Tudor plays in, and if you saw how good some of the players are, you'd be more respectful.

If he's owning people as Samus, then there's not very good, no matter how good Tudor is. The others just are worse/not good.

He's a hella good Samus, and IIRC, HuGs stopped playing Samus because of how good Tudor is. I can't bring proof, cuz' I was banned from the community a few weeks ago.

HugS stopped playing Samus because Tudor is good? Yes, I can see the logic there.

And also, even if Samus magically became good, it wouldn't really matter, now would it? It'd just be a case of mistaken first impressions (something Melee had as well). It's neither here nor there.

Unbalanced maybe, but since when does being less competative make a game bad?

On a Competitive level.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Yes, and? The metagames of the lesser used characters will just evolve at a slower pace. It doesn't really mean much if they don't actually evolve into something good.

If you're so sure a lot of characters' tier placements are wrong, prove us wrong. You go and develop their apparently abundant potential. Some of us can look at a character and accurately gauge their potential. We're just that awesome.

Tier placements have been proven wrong twenty times over in Brawl, I do not have to prove they are wrong, because they will change reguardless of what I do. Besides, I am probably not skilled enough to show off a character's potential. Even if I was skilled enough, I would be unable to continue this discussion for a few weeks, and where's the fun in that?

Slower evolution + less than a year out = incomplete evolution.

No one is awesome enough to gauge any character's potential at a glance. Don't kid yourself, Yuna, as it makes you appear arrogant.

 

[VandalKING]

Why not? Tell me how I'm wrong so I can learn, Yuna. And if you think I'm lying, why not visit the community I'm talking about? No one there is bad.

I think you are just locked into your own mindset, thinkin' everything you say is right, when it isn't. And besides that, have you even seen how Tudor works in teams? Him and TKO are scary.

 

[Yuna]

Tier placements have been proven wrong twenty times over in Brawl, I do not have to prove they are wrong, because they will change reguardless of what I do. Besides, I am probably not skilled enough to show off a character's potential. Even if I was skilled enough, I would be unable to continue this discussion for a few weeks, and where's the fun in that?

Name said tier placements. And it must be citing players whose opinions matter.

Slower evolution + less than a year out = incomplete evolution.

Even with limited evolution, we've seen most characters' potential by now. It's not going to change drastically. It hasn't drastically.

No one is awesome enough to gauge any character's potential at a glance. Don't kid yourself, Yuna, as it makes you appear arrogant.

I said "at a glance" when, Captain, my Captain?

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Name said tier placements. And it must be citing players whose opinions matter.


Even with limited evolution, we've seen most characters' potential by now. It's not going to change drastically. It hasn't drastically.


I said "at a glance" when, Captain, my Captain?

Some of us can look at a character and accurately gauge their potential. We're just that awesome.

Seeing as the game has only been out for five months, I'd guess that you couldn't possibly have a full understanding of the cast already. Also, there is a reason I mentioned Pikachu, and not Captain Falcon.

First Ike was great. Then Wolf. Then Snake. Then GW suddenly shot up the tier list. Do I really have to explain tier evolution to you, Yuna? You were around to see the opinions fluctuate since Brawl's release.

 

[metaXzero]

Ike was great? I don't remember such a time....unless you mean against n00bs.

 

[MarKO X]

While I'm most definitely not the most competative player, a multiplayer game being less competative hurts it. In a game like smash the competitiveness is what drives it. It's the reason they only had to make one Smash on both the N64 and GCN (and I doubt we'll see a second wii smash) yet there are at least 4 mario parties on both the N64 and GCN.

the n64 and GCN Smashes were only two years apart, basically for the rest of the N64 cycle, and then they rushed Melee to the GCN. (just kidding... I think... no I'm sure it wasn't rushed.)

 

[Dark Sonic]

First Ike was great. Then Wolf. Then Snake. Then GW suddenly shot up the tier list. Do I really have to explain tier evolution to you, Yuna? You were around to see the opinions fluctuate since Brawl's release.

1. Ike was never great.
2. Game and Watch was always considered amazing. Even early tierlists were placing him above Marth, DDD, ect.
3. Wolf was also considered great because of his F-smash and D-smash, and only got better when people started using his other moves.

The opinions have not fluctuated as much as you think.

 

[eyestrain92]

Alright. Melee, Fox and Falco danced and danced across the screen, taking anything and anyone else off the edge in seconds sometime.

Marth still godly? This is new to me. I've seen a Yoshi played by a SIMPLY BETTER PLAYER crush this one ego-fuelled Marth beyond crushing. You're presumptious, and you seem simply angered and as though you're bearing a grudge, not logic. Call this out once Brawl's been around as long as melee was before the tiers came out. You've no clue, in fact, NONE of us have any true clue as to how Brawl's tier structure and balance will truly turn out. Let's not call out ludicrous personal beliefs as law just yet.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Marth is still godly, compared to alot of other characters just not on the throne as he used to be >__>

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Ike was never great. Just severely hyped.

 

[Winston]

Alright. Melee, Fox and Falco danced and danced across the screen, taking anything and anyone else off the edge in seconds sometime.

Marth still godly? This is new to me. I've seen a Yoshi played by a SIMPLY BETTER PLAYER crush this one ego-fuelled Marth beyond crushing. You're presumptious, and you seem simply angered and as though you're bearing a grudge, not logic. Call this out once Brawl's been around as long as melee was before the tiers came out. You've no clue, in fact, NONE of us have any true clue as to how Brawl's tier structure and balance will truly turn out. Let's not call out ludicrous personal beliefs as law just yet.

You know, though the exact order of the top tier changed over the years, and some characters reached their full potential in high tier later in melee's lifespan, it was pretty clear which characters were the best (fox, falco, marth, sheik, peach) from the start...

Also, the Yoshi thing is totally irrelevant. He was played by a better player against a really bad player (being "ego-fuelled" has a very high correlation with being a n00b at smash). That means nothing in terms of tiers or balance.

I don't see why you say it's impossible for us to have insight into Brawl's balance/tiers when it's been out for several months already and there is no reason to expect any major shakeup of the metagame.

 

[Yuna]

Alright. Melee, Fox and Falco danced and danced across the screen, taking anything and anyone else off the edge in seconds sometime.

Marth still godly? This is new to me. I've seen a Yoshi played by a SIMPLY BETTER PLAYER crush this one ego-fuelled Marth beyond crushing. You're presumptious, and you seem simply angered and as though you're bearing a grudge, not logic. Call this out once Brawl's been around as long as melee was before the tiers came out. You've no clue, in fact, NONE of us have any true clue as to how Brawl's tier structure and balance will truly turn out. Let's not call out ludicrous personal beliefs as law just yet.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, read a little bit in the thread before posting, wrong, opinion, bad players beating worse players means nothing.

First Ike was great. Then Wolf. Then Snake. Then GW suddenly shot up the tier list. Do I really have to explain tier evolution to you, Yuna? You were around to see the opinions fluctuate since Brawl's release.

I specifically put down the condition that only the opinions of people that matter could be submitted. I don't care if random n00bs thought this or that.

Neither I or anyone (maybe a select few) credible ever said Ike was great. In fact, I immediately knew he wasn't and argued against idiots arguing he was Top or High Tier. Then people whined about Wolf and a lot of us credible players just said "Friggin' learn how to shield!". Snake was always considered great... and he still is. G&W never "suddenly shot up the tier list". He's been there the entire time... if you ask credible people.

If you factor in everyone's opinions on these boards (as in General, Tactical and Chracter), it will be skewed. Because the majority of users on these boards are new to Competitive gaming. They do not have the qualifications to accurate gauge a characters' potential.

Yet again you're basing your argument on bad logic and bad "evidence".

 

[Deleted member]

FYI, hugs always mained rob in brawl, never samus. Just so u guys know =P As for the discussion, melees balance>brawl's balance(said with no evidence cuz i dont care).

 

[Trapt497]

So, Yuna, from a non-credible person, do you believe overall that brawl's tiers or melee's tiers were more balenced? Just curious since you seem to know a lot on the subject. Am I right in assuming you thought melee was more balenced?

I want brawl to be more balenced, and I think it is IMO, but I never really played melee as much as I play brawl and I basically have nothing to back myself up with. I just haven't looked into the issue enough. So for now I have no opinion.

 

[Yuna]

So, Yuna, from a non-credible person, do you believe overall that brawl's tiers or melee's tiers were more balenced? Just curious since you seem to know a lot on the subject. Am I right in assuming you thought melee was more balenced?

Nothing in the past few months have been presented to make me doubt my initial hypothesis. In fact, things have been discovered that make Brawl even more imbalanced.

 

[Fawriel]

I want brawl to be more balenced, and I think it is IMO, but I never really played melee as much as I play brawl and I basically have nothing to back myself up with. I just haven't looked into the issue enough. So for now I have no opinion.

You are a great person.

FYI, hugs always mained rob in brawl, never samus. Just so u guys know =P As for the discussion, melees balance>brawl's balance(said with no evidence cuz i dont care).

Yeah... ROB is basically the new Samus after all.
If Tudor used him, he could actually make a name for himself as a guy who wins tournaments, not as "that guy who makes Samus look decent" (though it can be argued about which one is more desirable). Better projectiles, faster, more range, heavier(?), much better recovery, stronger in every respect...
Sure, Tudor has amazing dair timing and off-the-stage charge shot abilities and stuff, but if he played ROB, he wouldn't have to consistently RELY ON THOSE for everything... He makes Samus look awesome, but that's mostly because his opponents keep allowing him to get those convoluted maneuvers done in the first place. That's why watching his videos always makes me a little sad.

First Ike was great. Then Wolf. Then Snake. Then GW suddenly shot up the tier list. Do I really have to explain tier evolution to you, Yuna? You were around to see the opinions fluctuate since Brawl's release.

You know, I still remember watching a bunch of videos back when Brawl came out in America and cheering for PsychoMidget because he was using Snake so well, because Snake is so slow and big, he's obviously low tier, yes? I also remember talking to Blackadder about Snake and being like "Well he's strong, heavy, and pretty fast, but somehow he's not broken at all." I also remember something nagging at my conscious back then because that didn't make any sense.In my defense, I simply didn't pay attention to the distance his tilts hit from or the damage all of his attacks do, but that was just because I didn't keep myself informed well enough.
I also refused to watch videos of Ike winning because I had filed him in my mind under "those annoying overpowered jerks". I didn't consider the fact that MAYBE his recovery is absolutely HORRIBLE and he won't be as tough once people figure out how he works.

 

[eskimo bob]

sorry if I'm interrupting, but I've looked on several pages and I just can't find an explanation of the word "stage strike". anyone care to explain?

 

[Yuna]

sorry if I'm interrupting, but I've looked on several pages and I just can't find an explanation of the word "stage strike". anyone care to explain?

Before the start of each set, both players (or teams) have the right to "strike" 1 (Melee) or 2 (proposed for Brawl) stages. This means those stages will be banned for that particular set.

 

[Vyse]

Really? I thought that the term 'Stage Striking' referred to a proposed system that involved:
- both players/teams flip a coin.
- Winning side strikes out a starter
- Loser stikes out a starter

And this continues until one starter stage is left, which is what the first round of a set is played on. I thought I read about this somewhere as being an SBR idea. It was trialled at a tournament somewhere.

: /

Oh well.

 

[Yuna]

Stuff.

This could be the new way of deciding which stage the first match is played on that the SBR are whispering about. The term "Stage Striking" in Melee (and insofar in Brawl) just means you ban one or two stages each.

The term has been in use for a long time, way before Brawl was even released. Here's a source:
http://smashboards.com/calendar.php?do=getinfo&e=479&day=2007-4-28&c=1

 

[Vyse]

Oh okay, cool. I'd always used the term stage 'banning' is all.

: D

Yeah. I can't give you a definite source on it (I can't remember for the life of me where I read it, aside from it being here on smashboards), but I definitely remember reading that it was supposedly an SBR idea trialled at a tournament somewhere in America.

^_^

 

[eskimo bob]

I see. thank you, yuna.

 

[thumbswayup]

He's a hella good Samus, and IIRC, HuGs stopped playing Samus because of how good Tudor is. I can't bring proof, cuz' I was banned from the community a few weeks ago.

How do you get banned from a community?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Everything in Brawl is by pure chance. Sakurai and his minions have no grasp of what's balanced and not balanced and these ATs are for the most part obvious glitches, so it's not like he programmed them into the game on purpose.

Isn't it fair to say that a placment tier list and most used techs are by pure chance? (Unless your Akuma)

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Actually, I've been wondering - were ISJR and DAC placed in the game by chance, or on purpose?

ISJR - Why on earth would a glitch allow this very oddly timed trick that wasn't in melee? What in the programming could have possibly cause this by accident?

DAC - same question. I cannot figure out how this could have landed in Brawl unless it was programmed into the game. Neither technique has a melee counterpart, and I am not sure there is an explanation for the aspect of Brawl physics which is abused in either one that allows for these techniques to work. So how did they get into Brawl, anyway?

 

[Corigames]

Weird things happen in coding. When we were making our game project at school, it took us forever to get the physics of the game down. Lots of weird stuff happened. For example, if an enemy landed on your head, it would push you through the level, you would rocket around the screen really fast, and then load up a different level not even connected to the one you were in! Weird stuff, and we certainly didn't program it to do that specifically!

Don't think stuff is intended if it is weird.

 

[eyestrain92]

Yuna, regarding your quoting of me, I fail to see your point, and feel as though you've just proven mine.

Seems to me you're just a little too far up on your high horse. I'm not here to chuck out conditionless respect, and I've never been one for that in the first place.

You do have a high standing in this place, that's for sure, but that gives you no right to discard those less reputable just because they haven't been lurking here for the same amount of time you have, or because they aren't an admin.

Brawl, I feel, is still more balanced than Melee. In Melee, take once more a look at the AT's there were. Waveshining was a guaranteed KO once mastered, and was more than possible. Is there anything we've discovered in Brawl thus far that guarantees a KO, that has no escape? List them if multiple.

However, how long has Brawl been out? Honestly, how long has Brawl been out, Yuna? Your feelings thus far may be fuelled by tons of experience, but in reality, is there any substantial metagame developed this early on in Brawl's life? Do we really know that much about the game, ANY OF US, to make that much of a judgement?

The answer to most of these questions is a resounding no. Period.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Yuna, regarding your quoting of me, I fail to see your point, and feel as though you've just proven mine.

Seems to me you're just a little too far up on your high horse. I'm not here to chuck out conditionless respect, and I've never been one for that in the first place.

You do have a high standing in this place, that's for sure, but that gives you no right to discard those less reputable just because they haven't been lurking here for the same amount of time you have, or because they aren't an admin.

Brawl, I feel, is still more balanced than Melee. In Melee, take once more a look at the AT's there were. Waveshining was a guaranteed KO once mastered, and was more than possible. Is there anything we've discovered in Brawl thus far that guarantees a KO, that has no escape? List them if multiple.

However, how long has Brawl been out? Honestly, how long has Brawl been out, Yuna? Your feelings thus far may be fuelled by tons of experience, but in reality, is there any substantial metagame developed this early on in Brawl's life? Do we really know that much about the game, ANY OF US, to make that much of a judgement?

The answer to most of these questions is a resounding no. Period.

.....No, your point was pretty much wrong.


"Marth still godly!? How can he be godly if a BETTER player beats Marth!" That's like saying a shotgun has more range than a Sniper Rifle because the the guy with the shotgun is way more accurate and trained. **** isn't ranked like that.

And lol, duuuuude, drop the whole "it's only been out for 5 months" bs. Brawl is like the one game I keep hearing this about, and it's just plain stupid. Any other fighting game is usually figured out in like a month, and that point is never brought up. Sure, some new AT's can be discovered, but there wont be too many drastic changes.

And say hi to Sheik's F Tilt, DDD and Falco's chaingrab, IC's chaingrab, etc. etc.

I've got the smell of scrub on me now, greeeeeeeeeat.

 

[eyestrain92]

Scrub? I'm out of this thread. It reeks of bias.

I think the problem here might be lack of experience in some of the more promiment figures if my point is immediately discarded. Your shotgun/sniper analogy is way off from my point. Skill usually results in a win, regardless of character.

I think you should play some people who can actually use underused characters. Goodbye.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Weird things happen in coding. When we were making our game project at school, it took us forever to get the physics of the game down. Lots of weird stuff happened. For example, if an enemy landed on your head, it would push you through the level, you would rocket around the screen really fast, and then load up a different level not even connected to the one you were in! Weird stuff, and we certainly didn't program it to do that specifically!

Don't think stuff is intended if it is weird.

All physics glitches are due to the way two different elements of the physics come into contact with eachother. What is it about DAC that allows one attacks cancel into another like that? I am sure an answer to that could eventually be discovered because of typical cancelling physics, but ISJR simply defies explanation - I don't think I've heard of a glitch like that in any game. How could physics cause that glitch?

In other words, yes it is possible that these physics were not intentional, but some of them don't seem to have a non-intentional explanation - ISJR being the most obvious example (in spite of its lack of use).

 

[Lavos]

Brawl, I feel, is still more balanced than Melee. In Melee, take once more a look at the AT's there were. Waveshining was a guaranteed KO once mastered, and was more than possible. Is there anything we've discovered in Brawl thus far that guarantees a KO, that has no escape? List them if multiple.

This is why you're a scrub. If waveshining is so powerful, why isn't every pro a fox main and why would anyone use any other move? A perfect waveshine only works on some of the cast and with PERFECT timing. Otherwise it can be DI out of and punished. Stop perpetuating stupid myths.

Also, IC grab infinites
DDD chain grab infinite
ZSS downsmash infinite

Oh hey! There's three inescapable combos from Brawl off the top of my head! All easier than a perfect waveshine combo!

 

[kin3tic-c4jun-3]

Skill usually results in a win, regardless of character.

Agreed.






But not when it comes to Brawl, SCRUB!!







Guys, I just had to. I'm sorry. It felt good though.