Brawl+ Matchup Chart

[Alphatron]

Maybe the game could be made less easy once physics changes come...if they do.

Also, after this period of time passes in which no changes are made, I expect a few characters to be made less EZ, like what happened to Fox and Luigi.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

I hate typing w/ the wiimote.

Lemme get on a laptop so I can make myself clear to everyone.

Another question: Do you have plans on making the overall hack better than Melee?

 

[CloneHat]

We're not making Brawl+ with that goal at all. That is simply a matter of opinion. We're simply taking our goal and fulfilling it as best and most effectively as we can with the Brawl+ community's feedback.

EDIT: This discussion doesn't belong here, anyway. Please let me direct you to the FAQ thread.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Cero how do I get the chart into a form where I can post it?

Also, I decided to change an extra thing which will take me awhile so I don't know when I'll get it all done. The program is so slow and weird, and it keeps making the entries on cells look like #### and say like 96.000.00 and stuff.

 

[CloneHat]

Use alt>printscreen, paste the image into Paint, and crop it as you see fit.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Tha nks

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

We're not making Brawl+ with that goal at all. That is simply a matter of opinion. We're simply taking our goal and fulfilling it as best and most effectively as we can with the Brawl+ community's feedback.

EDIT: This discussion doesn't belong here, anyway. Please let me direct you to the FAQ thread.

I've read it before, but it did remind me of why people don't play Melee instead.

Brawl has characters, stages, and a metagame (?) that Melee lacks huh? Yet they detour it from being Melee 2. How can someone's mind work like that?

Thank you everyone for your replies. I'll take my issue elsewhere.

 

[MK26]

MK26 is in my mind after all, making my future comments pointless. But no, I will not accept this hack.

The answer is no. But I haven't complained about the hack here as I am only judging by how most of the footage of Brawl+ I've seen contains Falcon combos that look easy.(about 7 videos)

Maybe they're not easy, but I just don't find any appeal out of them.

Don't worry, I'll look more into the hack and leave the same opinions all over again before you all facepalm.

I must admit that I lol'd at the bolded. And please, call me Maestro.

Correct. Answer this for me: What's the point of Brawl+?

I...just don't get it. I've known about the hack for nearly a year, but I've always thought: This isn't for lulz, or just to make CF look good?

The real ignorant people in the Smash community are the ones that think vBrawl is such a horrid competitive game. It has its flaws, but so does Melee. Ppl still play the **** out of both.

I hate typing w/ the wiimote.

Lemme get on a laptop so I can make myself clear to everyone.

Another question: Do you have plans on making the overall hack better than Melee?

It seems to me like you simply don't like the idea of a Brawl+, that the developers' versions of the game are perfectly fine. And the plain and simple truth is that there is nothing wrong with that opinion. Though you may think otherwise, we in the Smash Workshop are not a bunch of Jehovah's Witness wannabes trying to convert you to our cause. We simply have the tools to make a good game great, and we are doing what is in my opinion a fine job so far.

The fundamental premise of Brawl+, that which our entire work is based on, is this: Brawl's game engine is inherently flawed, and goes contrary to the ideas and ideals set down by its predecessors. The things that make Brawl, well, Brawl, prevent it from being optimal on a competitive level. This runs deeper than the gross character imbalance, straight into the heart of Brawl's overly defensive-biased physics (ie cancelable hitstun, high landing lag on aerials, autosweetspotting ledges, and even stale move negation). As such, Brawl+ aims to revert these physics changes to that of Smash 64 and Melee. If it is not possible or desirable to be exact, a close analog is substituted. The result is, as I like to call it, Smash 3.1 - a mix of all the best traits from each of the Smash games (and yes, Brawl is included in that; it was decided early on to retain the Brawl airdodge over that of Melee), combined to make an overall fun and competitive experience.

The secondary and tertiarty goals (in chronological order, not necessarily importance) of the project are character balance and stage viability. The former includes removing any and all matchup-breaking tactics (infinites, locks, etc.), as well as making all characters cometitively viable without removing their originality. Now, this doesn't mean we want all matchups to be 50:50, but we have done our best to mitigate advantages and disadvantages to the point where player skill and/or smart counterpicking can overcome any disadvantaged matchup. A numerical goal would be to have no matchup worse than a regular counter (ie no hard counters whatsoever), but whether or not we have achieved that is questionable at this point. The latter, as one would expect, would encompass altering stages to make them competitively viable as well. This can include changing stage blastzone boundaries, slowing them down (to make hazards spawn slower), and even freezing them altogether (to prevent stage transformations from ever occuring). I can count at least 6 stages that went from questionable (or even outright banned) to perfectly fine counterpicks or neutrals.

Also:
Yes, it is easy to pick up, but we don't necessarily want extra button presses to get in the way of people becoming interested in the game.
CF looking good is simply a byproduct of the physics engine - he looks really cool, and everybody plays him (for fun, if not as a main), but the general consensus is that he isn't really Top 10 material...he's just really badass, and very viable.
On Melee vs. Brawl vs. Brawl: sure, we'd like to see Brawl+ have 400-man tournaments, but that doesn't necessarily mean we're competing against Melee or Brawl in anything. We just want to make it great, and if it shares some similarities to other Smash games, it's because they are great too.

We aren't going to yell at you for saying you simply don't like Brawl+. If you think it's unnecessary, that's fine. If you prefer Brawl, Melee, or even Smash 64, that's fine too. The fact of the matter is, we find Brawl+ fun. That's all it comes down to in the end. Why would we play a game that we dislike? In my opinion, an opinion which I'm sure is shared by the vast majority of Smash Workshop frequenters, Brawl+ is more fun than the games it's based on.

 

[camelot]

One thing that could possibly help to the "difficulty" or "speed" factors is changing around some characters' physics so that they reach the peak of their jump faster, but still fall at the same speed. I've always thought it was odd how some characters fall faster than they go up. Like Snake.

Bowser was changed around like this in 5.0, and I think you should consider doing it with more characters.

edit: This discussion probably should've been in a different thread

 

[SymphonicSage12]

I agree, Camelot. The only thing I didn't like about Bowser's physics changes is that SHACF is now impossible to do D:


(Short Hop Auto Cancel Fair)

 

[[TSON]]

I find it strange how this topic comes up, this troll pops up and goes "LUL U HACK SUX BCUZ MK 2 GOOD BBRAWL FTW asdfg", which has little to no relevance to the thread, nor does it have a backbone.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

^
l
l
l That makes two ppl today that have completely failed to contribute to a decent argument/discussion. I like to joke around, don't like it, don't reply to it.

Maestro is my hero for today.

Yeah, I'm fine with vBrawl, but I don't think it's perfect. That's why I want to check out Balanced Brawl cause character viability is the only thing left that I want out of Smash. And if I want to take competition to the next level, I'll play Melee a bit.

I don't hate Brawl+ btw, it's just not what I want. I'll probably spectate some more matches when they finish the project.

Just remember people, Smash was never intended for competitive play. We made it that way, and no one should've thought Sakurai would take what we turned Melee into, and improve on that.

 

[MK26]

Happy to be of service ^_^

 

[SymphonicSage12]

If it's not what you want, then play Balanced Brawl.

I get your point and all, but it gives you no right to bash Brawl+ just because it's not what you want. >.>


And true, smash was never intended for competitive play. But Brawl+ is.

 

[[TSON]]

Here's the problem though, THIS IS IRRELEVANT TO THE TOPIC AT HAND.

Then why are you HERE instead of playing with your IRL friends or something? This forum is ALL competitive. You see, this is a Brawl+ topic, and dropping in saying "YOUR HACK SUCKS" is called "trolling". And plus, what you added after that wasn't true either. This discussion has little relevance to matchups on top of all that. If Brawl+ isn't what you want, then what the hell are you doing in here? You posting that small, weak, unjust post isn't going to bring people to "your side". Judging by your location as well, it looks like your sole goal is to piss us off/bash Brawl+. What you're doing isn't cool, it's extremely annoying, and look what you've done to this thread, the past two pages are offtopic. Go flee back to your Balanced Brawl threads if you don't like Brawl+, or post in the Nightly thread and get gangbanged, then we laugh in your face.

There is a good solid reason why you don't see Brawl+ players going into your serious Brawl discussion topics and going "Brawl+ is better than this ****ty game", so don't do it to us, okay?

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

O_O You think it's bad I came in and joked around while you suddenly pop up and insult me?

I know the discussion was pathetic on my part, I don't care. You didn't do a good job at fixing anything...

You can go back to discussing the topic of this thread Mr. West.

Edit: http://www.tamurilart.com/art-exhibit/vector/1600X1200/rainbow-kirby-1600x1200.jpg

I wanted to improve the mood in here.

 

[[TSON]]

I think you're mad.

 

[camelot]

I will not accept this hack.

Plenty of people will accept it, though. It's pretty pointless discussing this here, not to mention off-topic to this thread.

But, anyway, don't you get it? People like Brawl so much, that they're willing to do all of this just to try and improve the game. It's been in development for almost an entire year now, and I think they're doing a great job.

Also, remember this: many of the codes that are used in Balanced Brawl were originally made specifically for Brawl+. Without the Brawl+ project, these codes would not have been made, and therefore Balanced Brawl would not even exist.

Anyway, like it or don't like it, that's your choice.

/end offtopic

 

[mofo_]

apparently he was just 'joking'

anyways id like to see the finished chart and see all the current matchup ratios :D

 

[Mattnumbers]

That time is a long ways away my friend. When I say I'm almost finished, I mean I'm getting closeish to having all the stuff currently in the OP on the chart.

 

[CloneHat]

Oh. Woops. I thought you were in the process of turning it into an image...

To finish off this "I do not accept this hack" argument, allow me to quote the FAQ:

I've come to the conclusion that I hate this project and everything it stands for. Although I refuse to test it myself the very thought of selfishly altering a game to make it more enjoyable sickens me as I'm sure it pollutes the intended experience (which is to have fun, but that's besides the point!). Is there anything I can do to stop you guys from playing it?

No.

 

[jalued]

are you sure sheik v ike is 50-50?? that sounds way off, i mean, sure he has more range than marth, and can kill faster.

But

he is also slower, less combos, worse recovery (especially in retrospect of sheiks fair angle), easy to combo due to weight, can be camped

would say that it should be a best 55-45 and at worst 70-30

what people think?

edit: and marth is a hard counter to falcon? really? does falco really **** that much less onstage than his melee counterpart?

 

[Mattnumbers]

ok that seems reasonable.

As of now I just need to get the chart updated, so bring it up again once I finish the chart.

Sorry it's taking forever, I have to basically learn how to use this program.

 

[MK26]

matt, why would you begin using a program you've never seen before over one you already know? ask the chart creator to save the file as a png or jpg so you can open it in GIMP or Photoshop or something.

 

[Cero]

Sorry, the closest thing I got to an image was turning it into a .pdf file.

If you want to follow MK26's suggestion I'll need a way to convert .pdf files into images.

You've probably already done a lot of edits to the chart though...

 

[Mattnumbers]

I can just give you mine with the changes already made.

But how do I make it not appear on separate pages when turning it into a .pdf?

 

[kr3wman]

and marth is a hard counter to falcon? really? does falco really **** that much less onstage than his melee counterpart?

It's not that falcon doesn't ****, it's that hard to get inside Marth's to grab or setup a combo because of Marth's zoning tools like jab or nair. This is also Falcon's issue in a lot of other matchups like ROB or Yoshi.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Then why was Falcon even with Marth in Melee?

 

[RPGsFTW]

Then why was Falcon even with Marth in Melee?

When was he even with Marth in Melee? I'm pretty sure he is not. His heavy + fastfalling allowed Marth to Uthrow -> **** combo on him super easy. That and Marth was AMAZING in Melee.

We could probably check the match-up chart Shell listed a few pages back if we wanted to be sure.

 

[Cero]

I can just give you mine with the changes already made.

But how do I make it not appear on separate pages when turning it into a .pdf?

Go to "file" -> "new" -> "drawing".

Then, go to "format" -> "page". Make sure you're on the "page" tab.

Now, set the width to 56.00 and the height to 28.00. Set the "orientation" to "landscape".

Navigate to where you stored the brawl+ chart's .ods file and drag and drop the file into OpenOffice.org drawing window.

This is assuming that you haven't changed the dimensions of the cells and that you still have the same amount of rows and columns as when I gave you the chart. If you did edit those, you can just set the appropriate height and width as needed.

When you've got the chart properly positioned inside the black box of the page, there's a button on the top-left of the screen that looks like a little .pdf icon. When you highlight it, it should read "export directly as PDF". Click that and it should be good.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Thanks man

Here it is, really I just changed the color scheme and changed a couple of the matchups to what they will look like at the end (28 size font, bold, only first number in matchup IE 40 in a 40:60)
http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=4e7c156a2e1581590de4fc1039a01674e04e75f6e8ebb871

Color Scheme is from top to bottom

Purple: 80:20
Darkish Blue: 70:30
Kinda....between dark and light blue but not normal blue: 65:35
Blue 7(light blue): 60:40
Green 7 55:45-45:55
Orange 40:60
Orangeish red: 35:65
Red: 30:70
Dark Red: 20:80

I like it personally, although I might change 50:50 to a different color.

 

[kr3wman]

Then why was Falcon even with Marth in Melee?

Melee Falcon is better than Brawl+ Falcon in pretty much everything.

 

[Cero]

Thanks man

Here it is, really I just changed the color scheme and changed a couple of the matchups to what they will look like at the end (28 size font, bold, only first number in matchup IE 40 in a 40:60)
http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=4e7c156a2e1581590de4fc1039a01674e04e75f6e8ebb871

Color Scheme is from top to bottom

Purple: 80:20
Darkish Blue: 70:30
Kinda....between dark and light blue but not normal blue: 65:35
Blue 7(light blue): 60:40
Green 7 55:45-45:55
Orange 40:60
Orangeish red: 35:65
Red: 30:70
Dark Red: 20:80

I like it personally, although I might change 50:50 to a different color.

Looks good so far.

The final product should come out great.

 

[weinzey]

Color Scheme is from top to bottom

Purple: 80:20
Darkish Blue: 70:30
Kinda....between dark and light blue but not normal blue: 65:35
Blue 7(light blue): 60:40
Green 7 55:45-45:55
Orange 40:60
Orangeish red: 35:65
Red: 30:70
Dark Red: 20:80

I like it personally, although I might change 50:50 to a different color.

60:40 should be green
55:45-45:55 should be yellow imo
then u can also avoid darkish blue

 

[MK26]

60:40 should be green
55:45-45:55 should be yellow imo
then u can also avoid darkish blue

/me cosigns

 

[jalued]

Melee Falcon is better than Brawl+ Falcon in pretty much everything.

he does stil have the best dashdance in the game, so can mindgame marth into getting inside. And tbh once he gets inside it should be no problem for a good falcon to 0-death him.... then again the knee is alot weaker now, so maybe it'll be 60-40 now

 

[Dark Sonic]

When was he even with Marth in Melee? I'm pretty sure he is not. His heavy + fastfalling allowed Marth to Uthrow -> **** combo on him super easy. That and Marth was AMAZING in Melee.

Actually, Falcon WAS even with Marth in melee. You're forgetting that Falcon was REALLY REALLY GOOD in melee. His speed allowed him to get in on Marth's range and once he was there Marth took a heavy beating (like, zero to 60 combos with a possibility of DEATH). Falcon was also INCREDIBLY hard to approach as Marth since he could easily escape Marth's range during the startup lag of his attacks. And lets not forget that every other move Falcon has combos into knee <_<, so his retaliation when you miss is pretty harsh.

Oh...and lighshield edgehogging (which didn't become popular for a long time wtf?) made edgeguarding Marth so easy tat they have almost equal chances of recovering against each other now. Falcon has to somehow get around Marth's sword shenannigans, while Marth has to get around lightshield->reverse Knee.

On brawl+ Marth....Marth doesn't **** Falcon, but it's certainly not as even as before. Marth took a range cut, but with Falcon not being as fast it kinda balances out. But Falcon loses his easy edgeguard and his combos on the stage aren't as devestating, while Marth's tools are mostly the same (and dancing blade is even more **** in the matchup lol)

 

[Shade26]

Falco vs Ganon is a 80-20 match-up.
Falco can Deathgrab Ganon at 16%

 

[CloneHat]

Even if you got spiked at 16 percent, it wouldn't kill Ganon.

 

[[TSON]]

...No, I think he means Ganon can't escape the CG after 16%. Spike would be at like 50%