CloneHat
Smash Champion
Veril told you? I still don't get it, but w/e.
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He's not bad, but he has some silly bad matchups against shield campers, like Snake. Falcon takes a lot of skill now a days because getting his combos requires real fast fingers but also messing up means a good 50% combo on the poor Capt. I was playing as Ike a lot last night so here is some of my findings. All numbers are Ike first then the opponentI lol'd at a lot of these values. People who think falcon is bad now are crazy.
can i just say im not understanding that colour scheme. can u plz make neutral yellow?Chart based on OP's numbers.
Here we gooo!
I used my color system. I can adjust to better ones later.
Comments:
I lol'd at how bad Falcon appears to be and how beastly the Mother characters are.
-DD
melee ones are proberbly more accurate due to combos etc i would guess. But i think olimar will still **** ganon for exampleWhen trying to get a rough starting point for matches that have little to no data, it may be helpful to peek at Melee Matchups and Brawl Matchups as a baseline, and then factor in new changes.
Put Falcon:Charizard as 65:35, played alot of games with Holy's ''Legitzard''.
It's not legit at all.
Peach 50:50 All the Peach mains agreed it was 55:45 for Jigglypuff, she keeps Peach on her toes in this matchup.
Photobucket resizes it, its actually about 2x that size. I'll post a mediafire link to the next one....Can you make that bigger? Like, link to a larger version of it, or something.
>_> I was filling all the spots in with text, and then I was linked to stock icons. Fixing it tonight...well...right now...Why does everything say "Bowser"?
nine chargeeeeeeez
its blue/green/yellow/orange/red
lrn2rainbow
and yellow is everything from 55:45 to 45:55
Poor poor sonic, having only 2 good matchups there. At least one of them is DK though, a character widely thought of being 60-40 against MK So sonic is going to be an MK's secondary then?A few Sonic matchups (imo) Format Sonic/other character
Marth 35/65
Wolf 40/60
Kirby 40/60
Pit 50/50
Pikachu 45/55
Fox 55/45
Sheik 40/60
Zelda 50/50
Donkey Kong 60/40
Yoshi 55/45
Ivysuar 60/40
Peach 35/65 (OMG I hate this matchup so much)
Metaknight 35/65
Those are the only guys I fight somewhat regularly though so. Don't wanna comment on matchups I don't know much about (I'm fairly good at theory crafting matchups though )
A download link for an image? Ew no. Put it on Imageshack or something?Photobucket resizes it, its actually about 2x that size. I'll post a mediafire link to the next one.
In case you haven't noticed, not many of those matchups are actually terrible. Slight disadvantages....are perfectly fine. I didn't comment on some possible advantageous matchups because I just don't have enough experience in them.Poor poor sonic, having only 2 good matchups there. At least one of them is DK though, a character widely thought of being 60-40 against MK So sonic is going to be an MK's secondary then?
Only one I can really comment on is the DDD matchup. Yeah, Sonic is hella fast and runs circles around DDD but what options does he have to get past priority walls?In case you haven't noticed, not many of those matchups are actually terrible. Slight disadvantages....are perfectly fine. I didn't comment on some possible advantageous matchups because I just don't have enough experience in them.
Such as
Bowser (pretty obvious Sonic has the advantage, but by how much I'm uncertain)
Samus
Charizard
DDD
Link (pretty close, but I think Sonic may have an edge here.)
Ganondorf (actually, this one's pretty ****).
Ice Climbers?
That would add a decent amount of ADVANTAGEOUS matchups to him if my theorycrafting works out in practice like it does in my head (I didn't mention them because I don't fight them often).
Sonic players should definitely have a secondary if they don't wanna fight a few uphill battles, but he's got nothing unwinnable (thank god Kirby's bair got shrunk )
Not enough people play Smash 64 to know how to use Up B as a **** combo finisherFalcon users on AiB B+ Boards says Knee was overnerf lolol
I agree with this, after playing around with Dedede for a while. Sonic can't really approach him with anything.Only one I can really comment on is the DDD matchup. Yeah, Sonic is hella fast and runs circles around DDD but what options does he have to get past priority walls?
Granted, I've never played a Sonic with anyone besides my G&W (so bear with some theorysmash) but it seems like Sonic's speed can only do so much for him. DDD's easy to combo, but his survivability is ridiculous especially considering Sonic has enough troubles killing as is. That, and I really just don't see Sonic getting inside DDD often enough to be a serious threat at all times. DDD can easily wall characters like Squirtle, Mario, and Luigi who are just lacking enough range to get inside, and I feel Sonic is in the same situation.
In the case of Game and watch it's hard because Nair covers all around him and has low lag.Only one I can really comment on is the DDD matchup. Yeah, Sonic is hella fast and runs circles around DDD but what options does he have to get past priority walls?
Granted, I've never played a Sonic with anyone besides my G&W (so bear with some theorysmash) but it seems like Sonic's speed can only do so much for him. DDD's easy to combo, but his survivability is ridiculous especially considering Sonic has enough troubles killing as is. That, and I really just don't see Sonic getting inside DDD often enough to be a serious threat at all times. DDD can easily wall characters like Squirtle, Mario, and Luigi who are just lacking enough range to get inside, and I feel Sonic is in the same situation.
Agreed. After some games tonight I'd say it's 60:40 or 65:35I agree with this, after playing around with Dedede for a while. Sonic can't really approach him with anything.
Also: Charizard and Sheik do not mix well. She can get inside really fast and combo Charizard to death.
His Bair has that much range? Hot ****. Honestly, my opinion of Sonic is probably just so low because I played G&W for so long. I never had a chance to see what he can do when I can just lololNair all day, and wait for him to slip up once for an early kill.In the case of Game and watch it's hard because Nair covers all around him and has low lag.
This is not the same case with DDD, who's only "wall" that Sonic has to deal with is bair (which is actually outranged by Sonic's own bair. wtf?) For getting Past his wall, Sonic's got side B for invincibility, spaced bairs, DACUS (which also has invincibility ) or just running in after the bair with a dash canceled d-tilt. And with DDD's chaingrab gone he actually has A LOT of trouble just racking damage on Sonic. Sonic is not like the ones you mentioned simply because he is actually fast enough to get past the wall. I feel like there's a kind of threshold for a lot of walls where "if your character moves at X speed, they can get past the wall" Marth's and MK's walls are simply too fast for Sonic to get throw, but DDD's actually has a fairly large amount of commitment.
Survivability is not a problem really, you just hit DDD off the stage over and over again . Sure you can't kill him until like 200%, but getting him there is NOT HARD for Sonic. One combo does between 30 and 50%, and Sonic's combos remain combos for a very long time. Then you've got Sonic's fair and bair which do a sizable amount of damage, dair which ALWAYS combos into bair or uair (it combos long past kill percents). Don't forget that Sonic takes a long time to die himself, and DDD's not the best edgeguarder (Sonic can get around everything that gets thrown at him), meanwhile he gets hit on the return trip every time.
Yea I've had a lot of opportunities to play the Sonic V Link matchup......recentlyLink BLAH BLAH BLAH I don't care bout the rest.......
Kirby can bair wall through Ness's fair and he's a floaty, meaning fair doesn't link well and PK fire is easy to escape. Obvious Kirby advantage.also, kirby definitely does not have an advantage on ness
its around even imo
SDIing out of bair earns no profit as it is a lot of work and G&W can just use it again and trap you. Bair also goes through almost everything Ness can attack with, and if it doesn't get through, then nair does. G&W is also light and ***** PK2 and the rest of Ness's projectiles hard. ALR also makes G&W even better in this matchup.Oh, and how the hell did the Ness vs G&W matchup get another 15 points worse from vBrawl to B+?
8-2? Really? Consider how much better Ness is in B+ and how G&W is basically the exact same. It's not like G&W is doing anything more to Ness than he already was, and Ness has plenty of new tricks that have to count for at least something. I've never played a competent B+ Ness, but that just seems silly to me. Either you guys don't know how to SDI out of Bair or G&W has a lot of secret buffs not in the changelist
Unless somebody can enlighten me there, that seems far fetched.
Unfortunately...I haven't Q_Q. So I won't comment directly on the link matchupYea I've had a lot of opportunities to play the Sonic V Link matchup......recently
Yep. Against characters with a range advantage, Sonic does go back to the bait and punish game (just hoping that the moves they wall with don't double as combo starters). He has A LOT of tricks for doing this (ASC->shield cancel, runing up and charging a side B to go through their attack. Using his high priority upsmash to catch an aerial opponent off guard, ect.) I'd imagine the STARTUP lag on Link's attacks are the key factor here that lets Sonic get in, because after missing one attack there's enough time before the next attack to intercept Link.I guess I should ask DarkSonic......Do you tend to play slightly more conservative against characters with range and Lag like Link? I assume you would play more of a bait and **** tactic with the speed advantage like with what my friend did. My friend found this to be slightly effective Since Links moves arn't multipurpose (with the exception of jab) but are more specific than others. Getting Link to use the wrong move in the wrong situation with a bait was often the key for him getting inside and thus victory.
DDD may have decent combo ability, but the combo starters that you've mentioned (dair and nair) are situational at best since Sonic has no real trouble weaving around them (actually, uair, bair, upsmash, uptilt, f-smash, and side B all just plain go through nair, and dair has very limited horizontal range.)Its not like DDD can't combo Sonic all over the place though. At low percents any Dair or Nair combo can easily put on around 40%. And DDD has no problems comboing at high percents either, and that includes comboing into kill moves. Sonic may have an advantage just because of his speed, but its not like DDD is slacking off in the combo department either. I assume Sonic's Bair also extends his hurtbox, so just grabbing him out of it is an option as well.
DK's bair has less shieldstun and is also done more often when RISING. Sonic's bair is shffl'd. It really is safe on block if you space it rightDDD's grab is stupid enough to grab a perfectly spaced Bair from DK so I imagine Sonic can be snatched too, though I can't be absolutely sure without going out to try it.
He may not have the CG anymore, but he's guaranteed at least 16% per grab, and his stupid good grab range, and the ability to combo into grab has him landing a lot of grabs per match.[/qutoe] True
Sonic's uair is almost as disjointed, but will indeed lose in a vertical contest. But...Sonic's got more aerial mobility, and the first hit of uair has MASSIVE horizontal range (that **** competes with fairs and bairs). It's really not hard to just move to the side and make DDD miss.DDD's Dtilt will clash with Sonic's Dtilt and Ftilt. Sonic can easily punish a whiffed Ftilt from DDD which is unfortunate :\ DDD's Utilt trades hits with his Dair, and Utilt can kill him around 110-120 range, and lower from platforms of course. DDD's Dair will beat out his Utilt, though not sure how is UAir does. My instinct wants to say DDD would win out because of how much more disjointed it is but its a guess.
I didn't say Sonic would be gimping DDD. I said that he would be racking damage as DDD recovers, which is true. Sonic doesn't actually need to go off the stage to force DDD to up B, all he has to do is speedhug the ledge every time DDD wants to grab it. He can also send DDD at a low angle to start with using d-throw or a sweetspotted dair (massive sweetspot window <_<), and going high DDD risks getting uair'd off the top cause Sonic can reach there.I can't see Sonic gimping, or even keeping DDD off stage, to be honest. DDD has what he needs to get around/defend himself against characters like Kirby, Charizard, and Jigglypuff offstage who are much better known for their gimp games than Sonic. I'm not saying that it can't happen, but at the very worst DDD would be forced to just outlast Sonic offstage. I only really see Sonic punishing DDD's recovery when he is able to force him into an Up B which is easier said than done considering his multiple jumps and weight.
Well, theory smash is okay as long as both players know enough about the characters. But to be honest, I don't know ENOUGH about DDD to be completely comfident with my analysis. I only know things like his range, how much lag he has, and combos I can do on him (for instance I underestimated his combo ability. I thought his low percent combos were more of the 30-35% range) I still wanna call this match close to even, but it may not be in Sonic's favor like I had previously thoughtThough all of this has to be taken with some salt. Theorysmash is theorysmash after all.
We need to get Blank in here to talk about Sonic matchups, since he'd probably have matchup experience with different characters than I do (and I respect him as a Sonic player, he may actually be better than me.)
changed for my point of view(roughly)...ive mained ike since the midnight Brawl came out <.<; so im pretty sure these are fairly accurate.He's not bad, but he has some silly bad matchups against shield campers, like Snake. Falcon takes a lot of skill now a days because getting his combos requires real fast fingers but also messing up means a good 50% combo on the poor Capt. I was playing as Ike a lot last night so here is some of my findings. All numbers are Ike first then the opponent
Mario: 45/55
Bowser: 55/45
DK: 55/45
Link: 45/55
Zelda: 55/45
Sheik: 50/50
Ganondorf: 60/40
Samus: 45/55
Kirby: 55/45
MK: 40/60
D3: 65/35
Fox: 50/50
Falco: 40/60
Wolf: 45/55
Falcon: 55/45
Marth: 45/55
Snake: 60/40
Sonic: 45/55
From my findings Ike has a few matchups he does amazingly well in (like 4-5) a few more where he is at a decent disadvantage (6-8) then goes close to even with the rest of the cast.