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Brawl+ Matchup Chart

DarkDragoon

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LordDarkDragoon
Chart based on OP's numbers.
Here we gooo!
I used my color system. I can adjust to better ones later.


Comments:
I lol'd at how bad Falcon appears to be and how beastly the Mother characters are.

-DD
 

shanus

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I lol'd at a lot of these values. People who think falcon is bad now are crazy.
 

Mattnumbers

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Yeah I've thought some of them were sort of ridiculous, but I don't really know CF's matchups other than CF V. Lucas so I tried not to discriminate based on my own views.

Also, it would be nice if you could fix it up and then give it to me so I can update it on the OP, the list is getting longer and longer every day :\
 

goodoldganon

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I lol'd at a lot of these values. People who think falcon is bad now are crazy.
He's not bad, but he has some silly bad matchups against shield campers, like Snake. Falcon takes a lot of skill now a days because getting his combos requires real fast fingers but also messing up means a good 50% combo on the poor Capt. I was playing as Ike a lot last night so here is some of my findings. All numbers are Ike first then the opponent

Mario: 50/50
Bowser: 60/40
DK: 55/45
Link: 45/55
Zelda: 55/45
Sheik: 50/50
Ganondorf: 55/45
Samus: 45/55
Kirby: 40/60
MK: 50/50
D3: 60/40
Fox: 55/45
Falco: 50/50
Wolf: 50/50
Falcon: 55/45
Marth: 60/40
Snake: 60/40
Sonic: 50/50

From my findings Ike has a few matchups he does amazingly well in (like 4-5) a few more where he is at a decent disadvantage (6-8) then goes close to even with the rest of the cast.
 

shanus

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Have you seen falcon's bair now? its insane fast. Same with his gentleman setups, and more. He is beastmode in the right hands right now. Might even be overbuffed.
 

jalued

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Chart based on OP's numbers.
Here we gooo!
I used my color system. I can adjust to better ones later.


Comments:
I lol'd at how bad Falcon appears to be and how beastly the Mother characters are.

-DD
can i just say im not understanding that colour scheme. can u plz make neutral yellow?

very good = blue
good = green
balanced = yellow
bad = orange
very bad = red

thanks

When trying to get a rough starting point for matches that have little to no data, it may be helpful to peek at Melee Matchups and Brawl Matchups as a baseline, and then factor in new changes.
melee ones are proberbly more accurate due to combos etc i would guess. But i think olimar will still **** ganon for example :p
 

Mattnumbers

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Hold a discussion and get back to me with the main reasons and I'll change it.

Doesn't need to be all that in depth, just a sentence or two about why you think the matchup is the way it is.

This does not hold true for matchups that aren't on there yet, I'll just add those as long as they aren't too ridiculous (like a 90:10 matchup or something).
 

DarkDragoon

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...Can you make that bigger? Like, link to a larger version of it, or something.
Photobucket resizes it, its actually about 2x that size. I'll post a mediafire link to the next one.

Why does everything say "Bowser"?
>_> I was filling all the spots in with text, and then I was linked to stock icons. Fixing it tonight...well...right now...
-DD
 

Dark Sonic

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A few Sonic matchups (imo) Format Sonic/other character

Marth 35/65
Wolf 40/60
Kirby 40/60
Pit 50/50
Pikachu 45/55
Fox 55/45
Sheik 40/60
Zelda 50/50
Donkey Kong 60/40
Yoshi 55/45
Ivysuar 60/40
Peach 35/65 (OMG I hate this matchup so much)
Metaknight 35/65

Those are the only guys I fight somewhat regularly though so. Don't wanna comment on matchups I don't know much about (I'm fairly good at theory crafting matchups though :p)
 

jalued

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A few Sonic matchups (imo) Format Sonic/other character

Marth 35/65
Wolf 40/60
Kirby 40/60
Pit 50/50
Pikachu 45/55
Fox 55/45
Sheik 40/60
Zelda 50/50
Donkey Kong 60/40
Yoshi 55/45
Ivysuar 60/40
Peach 35/65 (OMG I hate this matchup so much)
Metaknight 35/65

Those are the only guys I fight somewhat regularly though so. Don't wanna comment on matchups I don't know much about (I'm fairly good at theory crafting matchups though :p)
Poor poor sonic, having only 2 good matchups there. At least one of them is DK though, a character widely thought of being 60-40 against MK ;) So sonic is going to be an MK's secondary then? :p
 

Dark Sonic

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Poor poor sonic, having only 2 good matchups there. At least one of them is DK though, a character widely thought of being 60-40 against MK ;) So sonic is going to be an MK's secondary then? :p
In case you haven't noticed, not many of those matchups are actually terrible. Slight disadvantages....are perfectly fine. I didn't comment on some possible advantageous matchups because I just don't have enough experience in them.

Such as

Bowser (pretty obvious Sonic has the advantage, but by how much I'm uncertain)
Samus
Charizard
DDD
Link (pretty close, but I think Sonic may have an edge here.)
Ganondorf (actually, this one's pretty ****).
Ice Climbers?

That would add a decent amount of ADVANTAGEOUS matchups to him if my theorycrafting works out in practice like it does in my head (I didn't mention them because I don't fight them often).

Sonic players should definitely have a secondary if they don't wanna fight a few uphill battles, but he's got nothing unwinnable (thank god Kirby's bair got shrunk :p)
 

Plum

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In case you haven't noticed, not many of those matchups are actually terrible. Slight disadvantages....are perfectly fine. I didn't comment on some possible advantageous matchups because I just don't have enough experience in them.

Such as

Bowser (pretty obvious Sonic has the advantage, but by how much I'm uncertain)
Samus
Charizard
DDD
Link (pretty close, but I think Sonic may have an edge here.)
Ganondorf (actually, this one's pretty ****).
Ice Climbers?

That would add a decent amount of ADVANTAGEOUS matchups to him if my theorycrafting works out in practice like it does in my head (I didn't mention them because I don't fight them often).

Sonic players should definitely have a secondary if they don't wanna fight a few uphill battles, but he's got nothing unwinnable (thank god Kirby's bair got shrunk :p)
Only one I can really comment on is the DDD matchup. Yeah, Sonic is hella fast and runs circles around DDD but what options does he have to get past priority walls?
Granted, I've never played a Sonic with anyone besides my G&W (so bear with some theorysmash) but it seems like Sonic's speed can only do so much for him. DDD's easy to combo, but his survivability is ridiculous especially considering Sonic has enough troubles killing as is. That, and I really just don't see Sonic getting inside DDD often enough to be a serious threat at all times. DDD can easily wall characters like Squirtle, Mario, and Luigi who are just lacking enough range to get inside, and I feel Sonic is in the same situation.

Falcon users on AiB B+ Boards says Knee was overnerf lolol
Not enough people play Smash 64 to know how to use Up B as a **** combo finisher :(
He got along just fine then with no Knee, and now he gets both the Knee and sex Up B. Being able to choose how you kill somebody... Ah the beauty behind it.

EDIT:
Oh, and how the hell did the Ness vs G&W matchup get another 15 points worse from vBrawl to B+?
8-2? Really? Consider how much better Ness is in B+ and how G&W is basically the exact same. It's not like G&W is doing anything more to Ness than he already was, and Ness has plenty of new tricks that have to count for at least something. I've never played a competent B+ Ness, but that just seems silly to me. Either you guys don't know how to SDI out of Bair or G&W has a lot of secret buffs not in the changelist :dizzy:
Unless somebody can enlighten me there, that seems far fetched.
 

CloneHat

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Only one I can really comment on is the DDD matchup. Yeah, Sonic is hella fast and runs circles around DDD but what options does he have to get past priority walls?
Granted, I've never played a Sonic with anyone besides my G&W (so bear with some theorysmash) but it seems like Sonic's speed can only do so much for him. DDD's easy to combo, but his survivability is ridiculous especially considering Sonic has enough troubles killing as is. That, and I really just don't see Sonic getting inside DDD often enough to be a serious threat at all times. DDD can easily wall characters like Squirtle, Mario, and Luigi who are just lacking enough range to get inside, and I feel Sonic is in the same situation.
I agree with this, after playing around with Dedede for a while. Sonic can't really approach him with anything.

Also: Charizard and Sheik do not mix well. She can get inside really fast and combo Charizard to death. :urg:
 

Dark Sonic

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Only one I can really comment on is the DDD matchup. Yeah, Sonic is hella fast and runs circles around DDD but what options does he have to get past priority walls?
Granted, I've never played a Sonic with anyone besides my G&W (so bear with some theorysmash) but it seems like Sonic's speed can only do so much for him. DDD's easy to combo, but his survivability is ridiculous especially considering Sonic has enough troubles killing as is. That, and I really just don't see Sonic getting inside DDD often enough to be a serious threat at all times. DDD can easily wall characters like Squirtle, Mario, and Luigi who are just lacking enough range to get inside, and I feel Sonic is in the same situation.
In the case of Game and watch it's hard because Nair covers all around him and has low lag.

This is not the same case with DDD, who's only "wall" that Sonic has to deal with is bair (which is actually outranged by Sonic's own bair. wtf?) For getting Past his wall, Sonic's got side B for invincibility, spaced bairs, DACUS (which also has invincibility :p) or just running in after the bair with a dash canceled d-tilt. And with DDD's chaingrab gone he actually has A LOT of trouble just racking damage on Sonic. Sonic is not like the ones you mentioned simply because he is actually fast enough to get past the wall. I feel like there's a kind of threshold for a lot of walls where "if your character moves at X speed, they can get past the wall" Marth's and MK's walls are simply too fast for Sonic to get throw, but DDD's actually has a fairly large amount of commitment.


Survivability is not a problem really, you just hit DDD off the stage over and over again :p. Sure you can't kill him until like 200%, but getting him there is NOT HARD for Sonic. One combo does between 30 and 50%, and Sonic's combos remain combos for a very long time. Then you've got Sonic's fair and bair which do a sizable amount of damage, dair which ALWAYS combos into bair or uair (it combos long past kill percents). Don't forget that Sonic takes a long time to die himself, and DDD's not the best edgeguarder (Sonic can get around everything that gets thrown at him), meanwhile he gets hit on the return trip every time.
 

Sulfur

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I agree with this, after playing around with Dedede for a while. Sonic can't really approach him with anything.

Also: Charizard and Sheik do not mix well. She can get inside really fast and combo Charizard to death. :urg:
Agreed. After some games tonight I'd say it's 60:40 or 65:35
 

Plum

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In the case of Game and watch it's hard because Nair covers all around him and has low lag.

This is not the same case with DDD, who's only "wall" that Sonic has to deal with is bair (which is actually outranged by Sonic's own bair. wtf?) For getting Past his wall, Sonic's got side B for invincibility, spaced bairs, DACUS (which also has invincibility :p) or just running in after the bair with a dash canceled d-tilt. And with DDD's chaingrab gone he actually has A LOT of trouble just racking damage on Sonic. Sonic is not like the ones you mentioned simply because he is actually fast enough to get past the wall. I feel like there's a kind of threshold for a lot of walls where "if your character moves at X speed, they can get past the wall" Marth's and MK's walls are simply too fast for Sonic to get throw, but DDD's actually has a fairly large amount of commitment.


Survivability is not a problem really, you just hit DDD off the stage over and over again :p. Sure you can't kill him until like 200%, but getting him there is NOT HARD for Sonic. One combo does between 30 and 50%, and Sonic's combos remain combos for a very long time. Then you've got Sonic's fair and bair which do a sizable amount of damage, dair which ALWAYS combos into bair or uair (it combos long past kill percents). Don't forget that Sonic takes a long time to die himself, and DDD's not the best edgeguarder (Sonic can get around everything that gets thrown at him), meanwhile he gets hit on the return trip every time.
His Bair has that much range? Hot ****. Honestly, my opinion of Sonic is probably just so low because I played G&W for so long. I never had a chance to see what he can do when I can just lololNair all day, and wait for him to slip up once for an early kill.

Its not like DDD can't combo Sonic all over the place though. At low percents any Dair or Nair combo can easily put on around 40%. And DDD has no problems comboing at high percents either, and that includes comboing into kill moves. Sonic may have an advantage just because of his speed, but its not like DDD is slacking off in the combo department either. I assume Sonic's Bair also extends his hurtbox, so just grabbing him out of it is an option as well. DDD's grab is stupid enough to grab a perfectly spaced Bair from DK so I imagine Sonic can be snatched too, though I can't be absolutely sure without going out to try it. He may not have the CG anymore, but he's guaranteed at least 16% per grab, and his stupid good grab range, and the ability to combo into grab has him landing a lot of grabs per match.

DDD's Dtilt will clash with Sonic's Dtilt and Ftilt. Sonic can easily punish a whiffed Ftilt from DDD which is unfortunate :\ DDD's Utilt trades hits with his Dair, and Utilt can kill him around 110-120 range, and lower from platforms of course. DDD's Dair will beat out his Utilt, though not sure how is UAir does. My instinct wants to say DDD would win out because of how much more disjointed it is but its a guess.

I can't see Sonic gimping, or even keeping DDD off stage, to be honest. DDD has what he needs to get around/defend himself against characters like Kirby, Charizard, and Jigglypuff offstage who are much better known for their gimp games than Sonic. I'm not saying that it can't happen, but at the very worst DDD would be forced to just outlast Sonic offstage. I only really see Sonic punishing DDD's recovery when he is able to force him into an Up B which is easier said than done considering his multiple jumps and weight.

Though all of this has to be taken with some salt. Theorysmash is theorysmash after all.
 

Swordplay

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Link BLAH BLAH BLAH I don't care bout the rest.......
Yea I've had a lot of opportunities to play the Sonic V Link matchup......recently

Sonic REALLY has to watch out for Links new arrows. The arrow buff probably helps link against sonic more than any other matchup. Sonic just seems prone to it. That said, Sonic seems to have the speed to beat Link range and put some legit combos on him. Sonic REALLY has to watch out for Links new jab game as well or he'll eat ****. Sonic basically uses his speed to try to put up legit combo's (which he does very well)

I'd give Sonic a 55-45 advantage over Link at this point because I think sonic's will figure out how to better exploit Link once they figure out how t avoid projectiles and jabs better. Though my matches felt 50:50 (matchup feels like its withing that realm)..........A sonic player told me he had to play slightly more conservative than usual to fight Link but thats just based off of one person.....I guess I should ask DarkSonic......Do you tend to play slightly more conservative against characters with range and Lag like Link? I assume you would play more of a bait and **** tactic with the speed advantage like with what my friend did. My friend found this to be slightly effective Since Links moves arn't multipurpose (with the exception of jab) but are more specific than others. Getting Link to use the wrong move in the wrong situation with a bait was often the key for him getting inside and thus victory.

I'm also wanting to say that Link V Snake is 60-40 Link. I've played a couple of matches (not many) but that seems to be where this match up is heading. Link's arrows are his new favorite tool to use against Snakes. Combined with his D-tilt, it makes Snake recovery very hard to use. Snakes have to recover high and recoverying high against link is always tough since he has bombs to throw up and a Uair that can outlast many many airdodges. Link also out ranges Snake negating Snakes slight speed and survivability advantage.

I've also had the opportunity to play Wolf and Falco recently with Both Yoshi and Link. I'm not confident in posting any Falco match ups though due to his new laser game. I still need to get use to it. As for wolf, he is really good........not confident to post hard numbers though.
 

[TSON]

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also, kirby definitely does not have an advantage on ness

its around even imo
Kirby can bair wall through Ness's fair and he's a floaty, meaning fair doesn't link well and PK fire is easy to escape. Obvious Kirby advantage.

Oh, and how the hell did the Ness vs G&W matchup get another 15 points worse from vBrawl to B+?
8-2? Really? Consider how much better Ness is in B+ and how G&W is basically the exact same. It's not like G&W is doing anything more to Ness than he already was, and Ness has plenty of new tricks that have to count for at least something. I've never played a competent B+ Ness, but that just seems silly to me. Either you guys don't know how to SDI out of Bair or G&W has a lot of secret buffs not in the changelist :dizzy:
Unless somebody can enlighten me there, that seems far fetched.
SDIing out of bair earns no profit as it is a lot of work and G&W can just use it again and trap you. Bair also goes through almost everything Ness can attack with, and if it doesn't get through, then nair does. G&W is also light and ***** PK2 and the rest of Ness's projectiles hard. ALR also makes G&W even better in this matchup.
 

MK26

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Bair's new range decrease means it cant outprioritize ness' fair any more...and Kirby cant really do much if Ness spams projectiles and stays on the ground...

So, imma write up a few matchup ratios for Kirby, just to get the ball rollin (note: these are rounded to the nearest 10 pts)...

Bowser Even or better
Captain Falcon 60:40
DDD 60:40
Diddy Kong
Donkey Kong
Falco
Fox
Game & Watch 40:60
Ice Climbers
Ike Even or better
Jigglypuff
Link 60:40
Lucario
Lucas 50:50
Luigi 40:60
Mario 50:50
Marth 40:60
Meta Knight Even or better
Ness 50:50
Olimar 50:50
Peach Even or worse
Pikachu Even or worse
Pit
Pokemon Trainer 50:50
. Charizard 50:50 leaning toward Charizard's adv
. Ivysaur 50:50
. Squirtle 50:50 leaning toward Kirby's adv
ROB
Samus Even or worse
Sheik 60:40
Snake 40:60
Sonic Even or better
Toon Link 40:60
Wario Even or worse
Wolf 60:40
Yoshi 50:50
Zelda 40:60
Zero Suit Samus 40:60

Blanks are characters i have no clue about, "Even or better/worse" are characters i have a rough idea about but can't pin down much more than a general feeling
 

Dark Sonic

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Yea I've had a lot of opportunities to play the Sonic V Link matchup......recently
Unfortunately...I haven't Q_Q. So I won't comment directly on the link matchup

I guess I should ask DarkSonic......Do you tend to play slightly more conservative against characters with range and Lag like Link? I assume you would play more of a bait and **** tactic with the speed advantage like with what my friend did. My friend found this to be slightly effective Since Links moves arn't multipurpose (with the exception of jab) but are more specific than others. Getting Link to use the wrong move in the wrong situation with a bait was often the key for him getting inside and thus victory.
Yep. Against characters with a range advantage, Sonic does go back to the bait and punish game (just hoping that the moves they wall with don't double as combo starters). He has A LOT of tricks for doing this (ASC->shield cancel, runing up and charging a side B to go through their attack. Using his high priority upsmash to catch an aerial opponent off guard, ect.) I'd imagine the STARTUP lag on Link's attacks are the key factor here that lets Sonic get in, because after missing one attack there's enough time before the next attack to intercept Link.

And while Link's new arrows are probably a pain in the ***, I'd imagine just dash->side B->shield cancel would be enough to safely close the distance (you can't shield during your initial dash, but since Sonic can side B out of the initial dash and shield cancel the side B then he can do it the roundabout way)

\
Its not like DDD can't combo Sonic all over the place though. At low percents any Dair or Nair combo can easily put on around 40%. And DDD has no problems comboing at high percents either, and that includes comboing into kill moves. Sonic may have an advantage just because of his speed, but its not like DDD is slacking off in the combo department either. I assume Sonic's Bair also extends his hurtbox, so just grabbing him out of it is an option as well.
DDD may have decent combo ability, but the combo starters that you've mentioned (dair and nair) are situational at best since Sonic has no real trouble weaving around them (actually, uair, bair, upsmash, uptilt, f-smash, and side B all just plain go through nair, and dair has very limited horizontal range.)

And Sonic's bair doesn't extend his hurtbox that drastically. It's also safe on block (it has enough shieldstun to cover it's own lag and allow Sonic's hurtbox to return to normal before DDD's grab is out :p)
DDD's grab is stupid enough to grab a perfectly spaced Bair from DK so I imagine Sonic can be snatched too, though I can't be absolutely sure without going out to try it.
DK's bair has less shieldstun and is also done more often when RISING. Sonic's bair is shffl'd. It really is safe on block if you space it right
He may not have the CG anymore, but he's guaranteed at least 16% per grab, and his stupid good grab range, and the ability to combo into grab has him landing a lot of grabs per match.[/qutoe] True
DDD's Dtilt will clash with Sonic's Dtilt and Ftilt. Sonic can easily punish a whiffed Ftilt from DDD which is unfortunate :\ DDD's Utilt trades hits with his Dair, and Utilt can kill him around 110-120 range, and lower from platforms of course. DDD's Dair will beat out his Utilt, though not sure how is UAir does. My instinct wants to say DDD would win out because of how much more disjointed it is but its a guess.
Sonic's uair is almost as disjointed, but will indeed lose in a vertical contest. But...Sonic's got more aerial mobility, and the first hit of uair has MASSIVE horizontal range (that **** competes with fairs and bairs). It's really not hard to just move to the side and make DDD miss.
I can't see Sonic gimping, or even keeping DDD off stage, to be honest. DDD has what he needs to get around/defend himself against characters like Kirby, Charizard, and Jigglypuff offstage who are much better known for their gimp games than Sonic. I'm not saying that it can't happen, but at the very worst DDD would be forced to just outlast Sonic offstage. I only really see Sonic punishing DDD's recovery when he is able to force him into an Up B which is easier said than done considering his multiple jumps and weight.
I didn't say Sonic would be gimping DDD. I said that he would be racking damage as DDD recovers, which is true. Sonic doesn't actually need to go off the stage to force DDD to up B, all he has to do is speedhug the ledge every time DDD wants to grab it. He can also send DDD at a low angle to start with using d-throw or a sweetspotted dair (massive sweetspot window <_<), and going high DDD risks getting uair'd off the top cause Sonic can reach there.

Though all of this has to be taken with some salt. Theorysmash is theorysmash after all.
Well, theory smash is okay as long as both players know enough about the characters. But to be honest, I don't know ENOUGH about DDD to be completely comfident with my analysis. I only know things like his range, how much lag he has, and combos I can do on him (for instance I underestimated his combo ability. I thought his low percent combos were more of the 30-35% range) I still wanna call this match close to even, but it may not be in Sonic's favor like I had previously thought

We need to get Blank in here to talk about Sonic matchups, since he'd probably have matchup experience with different characters than I do (and I respect him as a Sonic player, he may actually be better than me.)
 

CountKaiser

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Ness vs. G&W 8:2? WTF?

It's 35:65 in G&W's favor. Don't forget that Ness still has an easy time killing G&W.
 

SymphonicSage12

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I would just like to point out that IC vs. Ganondorf is still a bad matchup, but not as nearly as much so as in vbrawl. I would say 65: 35 IC's favor or maybe 70:30, but that's stretching it a little.
 

Machiavelli.CF

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He's not bad, but he has some silly bad matchups against shield campers, like Snake. Falcon takes a lot of skill now a days because getting his combos requires real fast fingers but also messing up means a good 50% combo on the poor Capt. I was playing as Ike a lot last night so here is some of my findings. All numbers are Ike first then the opponent

Mario: 45/55
Bowser: 55/45
DK: 55/45
Link: 45/55
Zelda: 55/45
Sheik: 50/50
Ganondorf: 60/40
Samus: 45/55
Kirby: 55/45
MK: 40/60
D3: 65/35
Fox: 50/50
Falco: 40/60
Wolf: 45/55
Falcon: 55/45
Marth: 45/55
Snake: 60/40
Sonic: 45/55

From my findings Ike has a few matchups he does amazingly well in (like 4-5) a few more where he is at a decent disadvantage (6-8) then goes close to even with the rest of the cast.
changed for my point of view(roughly)...ive mained ike since the midnight Brawl came out <.<; so im pretty sure these are fairly accurate.
 
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