Brawl+ Matchup Chart

[dawgbowl]

please go beat some good players in a tournament with lucas before putting up such rediculous ratio's.

Ness will ALWAYS have lucas, he can gimp you almost as easily and when you zair if you space improperly you'll eat PK fire which is now a free combo for ness.

 

[stingers]

If you mispace a...lagless Zair...you'll eat a...laggy PK Fire...o.o

 

[SymphonicSage12]

*insert impromptu snappy comeback*

 

[WheelOfFish]

Bowser is so gay and people think he's bad when he isn't.

Bowser isn't considered bad, he's just considered one of the worst (not meant sarcastically; he's a decent character, he's just inferior to a lot of the cast). We'll see how his match-ups turn out though.

 

[Mattnumbers]

If you mispace a...lagless Zair...you'll eat a...laggy PK Fire...o.o

Zair has no landing lag, but it still has some time where it doesn't have a hitbox but it's still out.
Also Ness's PK Fire was sped up.

 

[Alphatron]

I'm gonna have to call out the Ness vs. Zelda matchup. I can't see Ness at a disadvantage, even if its slight. PSI magnet, his aerials beat yours, and now he's got DJC.

 

[jalued]

lets start talking MK...

 

[[TSON]]

Zair has no landing lag, but it still has some time where it doesn't have a hitbox but it's still out.
Also Ness's PK Fire was sped up.

...By 4 frames...

I'm gonna have to call out the Ness vs. Zelda matchup. I can't see Ness at a disadvantage, even if its slight. PSI magnet, his aerials beat yours, and now he's got DJC.

Floaty is Ness's Giygas. DJC fair isn't as useful against them. DJC fair IS Ness's strong point. If you can't DJC fair spam for approaching and/or combos then you won't do well.
Also magnet has lots of startup and winddown, and is the only move he has that can get through Din's now. Zelda's nair goes through most of Ness's aerials as well (other than fair but like I said it doesnt work well in this matchup) and Zelda's other aerials, if spaced correctly, can be nightmarish for Ness as well.

Also, I decided not to do Lucario v Ness because I'd be biased.
I hate Lucarios.

 

[Mattnumbers]

I'm not sure if I should put up the Ness ones or not cause you said to maybe not put them up :\. Repost the ones you are confident about.

 

[[TSON]]

Okay, well...

Bowser : 65:35
Cpt. Falcon: 45:55
Fox : 60:40
Game & Watch : 20:80
Jigglypuff : 40:60
Kirby : 45:65
Lucas : 55:45
Ness : 50:50
Peach : 35:65
Sheik : 55:45
Snake : 60:40
Sonic : 65:35
Squirtle : 30:70
Wolf : 65:35
Yoshi : 50:50
ZSS : 30:70

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Could we start to construct a tier list out of this? Also, who else does G&W ****? Jiggs, right?

 

[Mattnumbers]

No we cannot make a tier list out of this.

You can however see who generally has better matchups.

The problem is that most of these aren't completely accurate. Really the longer we have the chart here the more accurate it will get as people disprove matchups/give new matchups.

 

[stingers]

looooooool...i comboed a ganon from 0-100 with lucas...

zair to zair to ftilt to dair to utilt to nair to nair to fair or something like that

it was so cool

 

[GHNeko]

No we cannot make a tier list out of this.

You can however see who generally has better matchups.

The problem is that most of these aren't completely accurate. Really the longer we have the chart here the more accurate it will get as people disprove matchups/give new matchups.

A completed match up chart provides more than enough info to actually create a tier list. <_<

 

[RPGsFTW]

A completed match up chart provides more than enough info to actually create a tier list. <_<

Exactly. Once all the match-ups are known, a tier list can be made. However deciding the differences in tier, Ex: high to mid, are something I have no idea about how they're decided on.

 

[CountKaiser]

Okay, well...

Bowser : 65:35
Cpt. Falcon: 45:55
Fox : 60:40
Game & Watch : 20:80
Jigglypuff : 40:60
Kirby : 45:65
Lucas : 55:45
Ness : 50:50
Peach : 35:65
Sheik : 55:45
Snake : 60:40
Sonic : 65:35
Squirtle : 30:70
Wolf : 65:35
Yoshi : 50:50
ZSS : 30:70

Bowser: Seems right

Captain Falcon: Seems right

Fox: Not sure on this. In all honesty it could very well be even.

G&W: 2:8 is a bit drastic, but G&W has all the tools to stop Ness. Possibly a hard counter, definitely a soft counter

Jiggs: Hmmm, I guess. Never fought a jiggs with ness. Uair ***** her.

Kirby: I would say either that or 40:60, but the matchup isn't in ness's favor

Lucas: This or 50:50. I don't think either has a serious advantage.

Peach: Seems right

Sheik: I'd say Sheik is anywhere from a hard matchup to a soft counter to ness. She gimps far too hard.

Snake: Can't say

Sonic: Can't say

Squirtle: I personally think this is 50:50, maybe 40:60

Wolf: Yeah, that looks right, maybe a 60:40

Yoshi: Can't say

ZSS: Can't Say

 

[DarkDragoon]

Exactly. Once all the match-ups are known, a tier list can be made. However deciding the differences in tier, Ex: high to mid, are something I have no idea about how they're decided on.

Thats just comparing the adjacent characters and if there seems to be a "gap" that's where you cut the sections.

For Example [as in, random characters to random numbers]:

Marth - 98
MK - 96
DeDeDe- 95
Ness - 94
Squirtle - 89
Ivysaur - 88
Olimar - 88
Samus - 86
Zamus - 85
Lucario - 84
Peach - 80
Mario - 79
Luigi-78
ROB - 72
etc..

You'd make cuts between Ness/Squirtle, Lucario/Peach, and Luigi/ROB, because there are "gaps".

-DD

 

[RPGsFTW]

Thats just comparing the adjacent characters and if there seems to be a "gap" that's where you cut the sections.

You'd make cuts between Ness/Squirtle, Lucario/Peach, and Luigi/ROB, because there are "gaps".

Ah, ok. That makes sense. Thanks for explaining that. =)

If anything, I'll try to make my mind up on some match-ups regarding, Wario, Bowser, and Falco. I play Link, Lucas, and ZSS quite often, so I'll talk to them about it.

 

[Mattnumbers]

I said we can't make a tier list out of this because it won't be complete and accurate for a good while. Of course you can use a full and accurate Matchup Chart for determining how generally good characters are (although you have to remember that different matchups are more beneficial to have be good than others, for example if you hard counter MK in vBrawl, and another character has the same matchups as you but instead counters Samus, you would be the better character.)

 

[Kei_Takaro]

Agreed, also Brawl+ supposedly eliminates the Tier List i think or maybe in the final version of it
^_^

 

[GHNeko]

Agreed, also Brawl+ supposedly eliminates the Tier List i think or maybe in the final version of it
^_^

Impossible. Every competitive game with more than 1 character that have differences will have tier lists. <_<

 

[Mattnumbers]

I think Brawl+ will only have 3 tiers in the end, instead of 5.

And we should probably call them mid high and top since technically our aim should be to have no one feel like they are low tier.

Either that or we can think of some way of showing the rankings while conveying the message that the game is pretty balanced so that the lower characters really aren't all that worse than the top characters.

 

[jalued]

massive bump cause this thread is important!!

oh and peach 60-40 against diddy (apparently)

im just curious who ***** MK now (if anyone)


and people think lucas vs bowser is more ridiculous than falcon vs bowser?? Have to try this out!! lol

 

[Mattnumbers]

I'm not sure about Lucas v. Bowser but somebody told me that in the AiB Lucas boards so I added it in. Personally I don't play against Bowser much so I can't say anything on the matter, other than I feel that Lucas has some sort of an advantage.

 

[Kei_Takaro]

I think Brawl+ will only have 3 tiers in the end, instead of 5.

And we should probably call them mid high and top since technically our aim should be to have no one feel like they are low tier.

Either that or we can think of some way of showing the rankings while conveying the message that the game is pretty balanced so that the lower characters really aren't all that worse than the top characters.

Hmm, do you think the triangle method will work? (AKA Rock-Paper-Scissors Method)
So It's like if there ever is a character that gets 60-40 advantage or 40-60 disadvantage, It gets placed in one of the three sections. (Which also removes "BEST"and "WORST" tiers so that all of them are just the "BETTER THAN" tiers)

Also, I'm guessing brawl+ in it's final version will allow all characters to be at 50-50 or maybe at least 60-40/40-60 so that the triangle method takes place.

(I don't really know, it's just some casual analysis that popped up in my head. So I might as well share it with you guys)

 

[TLMSheikant]

Im pretty sure Luigi vs TL has gone from 60-40 TL (vbrawl) to 55-45 Luigi :/. Hes too hard to combo. Mk vs TL is prolly 55-45 mk now. Snake vs TL MAY be in TL's favor now by a little. D3 is definetely TL's advantage now. And thats all I can say >_>.

 

[CloneHat]

If everyone was a 50-50 it would be really boring.

We want to make everyone viable, but we can not and will not remove counter picking as long as there are different characters in the game.

 

[jalued]

Hmm, do you think the triangle method will work? (AKA Rock-Paper-Scissors Method)
So It's like if there ever is a character that gets 60-40 advantage or 40-60 disadvantage, It gets placed in one of the three sections. (Which also removes "BEST"and "WORST" tiers so that all of them are just the "BETTER THAN" tiers)

So...


Also, I'm guessing brawl+ in it's final version will allow all characters to be at 50-50 or maybe at least 60-40/40-60 so that the triangle method takes place.

(I don't really know, it's just some casual analysis that popped up in my head. So I might as well share it with you guys)

it wont be a balanced rock paper scissors though, as there will be more in 2 than the other plus the matchups are far more complicated than that, but i guess you could put them into catagories if u tried hard enough.

some characters seem to have most things though *coughfoxcough* so its ot a simple task at all. most likely is that in a "balanced" game, the tier lists will be mainly based on how many good matchups a character has tbh. Can never see bowser being top tier for example, so many characters counter him. Doesnt mean hes not good, im sure he has good matchups, but in the long run no matter how much he is buffed, his size will always hinder him

 

[kr3wman]

If everyone was a 50-50 it would be really boring.

We want to make everyone viable, but we can not and will not remove counter picking as long as there are different characters in the game.

Matchup numbers have nothing to do with how fun a matchup is.

 

[Metmetm3t]

There is no way G&W is 80:20 with Ness
It was 65:35 in vBrawl and Ness has gone way up since then, while G&W has had only like 4 changes

 

[jalued]

just to say i think it should be coloured accordingly:

80+ = Violet
70/75 - 30/25 = Indigo (70/30 to 75/25 is what that means just to clarify)
60/65 - 40/35 = Blue
50/55 - 50/45 = Green
40/45 - 60/55 = Yellow
30/35 - 70/65 = Orange
20- = Red

see what i did with the colours??

 

[Kei_Takaro]

OIC what you did there XD

Speaking of Matchups, I'm guessing Falcon **** big hitboxes like Bowser using the (Slide [Y] to [A] while holding forward for Knee Spam technique)

 

[Mattnumbers]

Wavelength spectrum.

I like.

DD how is the chart coming? You don't need to put all the matchups on it, I can do that. I just need the chart.

 

[jalued]

Wavelength spectrum.

I like.

DD how is the chart coming? You don't need to put all the matchups on it, I can do that. I just need the chart.

yeah cant wait. I do think its the easiest way to gain a general tier list as well, which is always nice (since the balance of the game is basically only effected by matchups (think MK...))

 

[Mattnumbers]

Actually technically if it were the wavelength spectrum the colors would be opposite. Higher ones would be red and lower ones would be purple

 

[CountKaiser]

Red = lower energy

Purple = Higher energy

So better matchups would be blue to purple, worse matchups orange to red.

Science ftw.

 

[GHNeko]

But yea. That sounds like a pretty cool idea. Now all we need to do is discuss match ups.

*waltz over to AiB B+ Boards*

 

[Mattnumbers]

For now I'm including any matchup someone says that they are confident about if there isn't already one there that is different. The first priority is to actually fill the matchups up, since then people will see things they disagree with and try to disprove them. So first is fill up the chart, and second is make the chart accurate.

 

[IC3R]

Captain Falcon
Bowser : 60:04

lol 10lolz

 

[matt4300]

No way ever in hell falcon beats link... He out everythings him.