Brawl+ Matchup Chart

[GHNeko]

...Outcombos and outrecovers and outspeeds?

>_>

 

[CloneHat]

lol 10lolz

Don't change it, it's true.

 

[ph00tbag]

Zero Suit Samus
Ness: 70:30

This seems like a liiiiittle bit of a stretch. I admit I don't know much about Ness's strengths and weaknesses, but I can say for sure that ZSS has some weaknesses that Ness should be able to exploit (mediocre approach, terrible oos game, light weight, easy to combo).

 

[MK26]

how about you put kirby at 60:40 against everybody and we'll go from there?

 

[GHNeko]

Marth and MK say no to your suggestion MK26

 

[RPGsFTW]

Some really quick Wario opinions from me. I'd like to say that Wario still retains his good abilities, but still has some bad match-ups. Probably some of these sound odd, but this isn't official yet so it's good to have some input, right?

To be real simple, I'll say this. To me, so far I've never had a match as Wario where I completely dominate the other person's character because of their character alone. I've always felt Wario to have very close to even match-ups. The best and worst being something like 60/40 or 40/60. In all honesty, even against a fatty, where I usually think Wario would ****, the match-up is not that big in Wario's favor.

If I ever play any matches where I disagree with what I said, I'll definitely post again with my changed mind.

Any other Wario players with opinions though?

@MK26
lol, Personally, relating to what I just posted, I think Wario vs Kirby is in Wario's favor. Probably 55/45. I love biting Fsmash spamming Kirby's who just want a kill with a move other than their Bair.

 

[Swordplay]

...Outcombos and outrecovers and outspeeds?

>_>

Definatly not outspeeds.........

However his recovery may be on par with CF's. If you haven't played any good Links recently you should. You'll notice you become very hesitant to go offstage and even attempt gimps with his powered up up-b. (Some characters arn't affected much by this. I believe Falcon is one of those since he gimps Link from above with Dair and from below with Uair.)

Outcombos????? IDK. Link has some crazy **** combo's now. Jab>Jab>Grab>Dthrow>Utilts(low%)/air spin attack (med%) seems to be a true combo against most chars. Especially Falcon.

And Link defiantly out ranges Falcon.

I see it near even but I'll give kr3wman the benefit of the doubt here as I've only played 1 Falcon main. I'll call it 55-45 Falcon because Falcons nair approach angle is a blind spot for link. Link can't always get a boomerang off or zair off in time to stop falcons approach from that angle with the difference in speed. This inevitable leads Link to just Nairing for priority, jabs for range, and using lots of safe projectiles.

Will it be falcons nair/grab>combos?

Or

Links Nair>jab>jab>grab/spin attack??

Not only that, They both gimp each other nicely. Arrows are the new **** tool which either gimp the opponent or put them far away enough to were Link can easily use another move to gimp and Falcons Uair still has so much sex (especially reverse uair).

Defiantly an interesting match up between these two. I'll probably get started on more matchups this weekend.

The Only matchups Link might have significant trouble with now are Pika Oli MK Kirby. (at least those are the ones I've had trouble with) And basically anybody with a fast SH approach. Yoshi also might counter Link due to his approach angle but I need more matchup experience However, to Link's, Yoshi is just a Falcon that lives longer. I play both Yoshi and Link but I obviously can't play myself..............I'll try to get numbers on some more Link and Yoshi matchups down the line.

 

[Swordplay]

Dammit Smashboards....dammit Internet... Why Did This Double Post

 

[Mattnumbers]

Ok, I'm going to lower Ness v. ZSS to 35:65 and put Link V. Falcon at 45:55.

 

[MK26]

MK? lol. The matchup was almost even in vBrawl, Kirby's got it in the bag here.

And i said "start from there", of course there will be changes. Personally I find Ness to be a huge annoyance. (And I agree with teh Wario and Marth comments)

 

[[TSON]]

There is no way G&W is 80:20 with Ness
It was 65:35 in vBrawl and Ness has gone way up since then, while G&W has had only like 4 changes

Ness may have gone way up but these changes have emphasized his weaknesses and made them way easier to pick at. Everything Ness has can be countered by Bair. Every single move. Uair ***** recovery. Nair and bair **** fair, etc. It's a really really bad matchup.

I know that if Ness gets in G&W is as good as dead but, like against Falco (albeit to a lesser extent) Ness has trouble getting in.

Nohomo.

 

[jalued]

so marth vs sheik is proberbly 60/40 for sheik, was in melee anyway. alot of these matchups could prob be taken from melee tbh (bar a few minor alterations, such as sheik having better recovery, but worse fair, of falcon having weaker knee etc etc)

since puff is one of the characters that has changed the least, here are her melee matchups from mangos thread. take what you want from it people,this isnt stealing, its saving time

Puff vs.
sheik: 30-70
marth: 20-80
fox: 60-40
falco: 50-50
peach: 50-50
falcon: 50-50
ganon: 50-50
IC: 55-45
samus: 75-25
bowser: 60-40

Thats all the numbers there atm, people agree that its the same for B+??

 

[CloneHat]

so marth vs sheik is proberbly 60/40 for sheik, was in melee anyway. alot of these matchups could prob be taken from melee tbh (bar a few minor alterations, such as sheik having better recovery, but worse fair, of falcon having weaker knee etc etc)

since puff is one of the characters that has changed the least, here are her melee matchups from mangos thread. take what you want from it people,this isnt stealing, its saving time

Puff vs.
sheik: 30-70
marth: 20-80
fox: 60-40
falco: 50-50
peach: 50-50
falcon: 50-50
ganon: 50-50
IC: 55-45
samus: 75-25
bowser: 60-40

Thats all the numbers there atm, people agree that its the same for B+??

Nonononono

Sheik is probably at least 45-55, perhaps even 55-45. Jigglypuff can combo her and easily gimp both her recoveries, the problem is Sheik can combo Jigglypuff to high percents.

Marth? It still sucks, but I never thought of it as that polarized. I don't have much experience with the matchup, but 20-80 seems like too much.

Fox: 55-45, 50-50? Both characters can do RIDICULOUS things to eachother, but Jigglypuff has the gimping advantage. It's a tough matchup in general.

All ratios have Jigglypuff as the first number. I might say more later, I have to go.

 

[jalued]

Nonononono

Sheik is probably at least 45-55, perhaps even 55-45. Jigglypuff can combo her and easily gimp both her recoveries, the problem is Sheik can combo Jigglypuff to high percents.

Marth? It still sucks, but I never thought of it as that polarized. I don't have much experience with the matchup, but 20-80 seems like too much.

Fox: 55-45, 50-50? Both characters can do RIDICULOUS things to eachother, but Jigglypuff has the gimping advantage. It's a tough matchup in general.

All ratios have Jigglypuff as the first number. I might say more later, I have to go.

yeah i guess since fox doesnt have his 50% kill upsmash anymore it'll be more even for jiggs vs fox.

Think this is a good base though, sure its completely up for discussion, but wont be far off this. Sheik still ***** falcon for example

 

[Meru.]

Mehh, are there really so many 30:70, or are many exaggerating about match-ups?

 

[Sulfur]

Mehh, are there really so many 30:70, or are many exaggerating about match-ups?

It really seems like it to me :/ I keep seeing these matchups that in theory aren't THAT difficult. At least how I see it.

 

[kr3wman]

Mehh, are there really so many 30:70, or are many exaggerating about match-ups?

I'm exaggerating, it's true.

Falcon:Wolf and Falcon:Yoshi is atleast 8:2, if not 9:1.

 

[CloneHat]

I'm exaggerating, it's true.

Falcon:Wolf and Falcon:Yoshi is atleast 8:2, if not 9:1.

What's so great about Wolf and Yoshi?

 

[Plum]

Ness may have gone way up but these changes have emphasized his weaknesses and made them way easier to pick at. Everything Ness has can be countered by Bair. Every single move. Uair ***** recovery. Nair and bair **** fair, etc. It's a really really bad matchup.

I know that if Ness gets in G&W is as good as dead but, like against Falco (albeit to a lesser extent) Ness has trouble getting in.

Nohomo.

This really.
What Ness can do improves his odds to a degree, but by no means is G&W not a hard counter anymore.
I always considered it a 70-30 in vBrawl, I would probably now put it at a 65-35. Those 5 points only come from the fact that Ness has a much better combo game than G&W. But none of that changes the facts of how G&W exploits all of his weaknesses VERY well, and even one of his potential strengths.

His projectile game is nigh useless because of G&W's high priority walls which are able to cancel them out, as well as his Bucket at longer range.

His recovery is destroyed by G&W. Horizontal zap jumping can get him back on the stage but that is still really easy to intercept for G&W's aerial game assuming he can see it coming. His Up B is lololololrapegimpfail'd by G&W's Up B, Uair, the Bucket or good ol' meat shielding. And if Ness finds the time to pull of the Up B he better have **** perfect spacing or he's eating a Dtilt at the edge or a Fair/any Smash if he aims just above it.

His approaches are wrecked by G&W's walls. Enough said. Bair, Nair, Fair, Chef, Dtilt and Up B for escapes basically make getting inside G&W a stupidly hard task for Ness. Yeah, once he finally does get in he will lay on a lot of pain on G&W; he is the second lightest character but he doesn't get the near "moon-man/Luigi" physics that the other super lightweights have (Olimar, Squirtle, Jigglypuff) that make them so difficult to combo. So he will take Ness's combos much better than the other characters in his weight class, so at the very least there is some hope if Ness can gain momentum.

I find this will be a very momentum based matchup. Who ever takes control of the match will keep control, so it more or less boils down to who can take the momentum of the match easier. That answer is easily G&W.

 

[jalued]

so since everyone is talking aboiut counters in the tactical discussion, lets bring it here!!!

I'm exaggerating, it's true.

Falcon:Wolf and Falcon:Yoshi is atleast 8:2, if not 9:1.

as in good for falcon or for yoshi/wolf? and if its for wolf/yoshi, then falcon has hard counters too like bowser and samus

 

[kr3wman]

I was sarcastic since Falcon gets ***** by those characters and he thought I was exaggerating.

 

[jalued]

I was sarcastic since Falcon gets ***** by those characters and he thought I was exaggerating.

yeah but falcon can **** other characters as well. He's just a pretty extreame character overal lol

 

[Mattnumbers]

so marth vs sheik is proberbly 60/40 for sheik, was in melee anyway. alot of these matchups could prob be taken from melee tbh (bar a few minor alterations, such as sheik having better recovery, but worse fair, of falcon having weaker knee etc etc)

since puff is one of the characters that has changed the least, here are her melee matchups from mangos thread. take what you want from it people,this isnt stealing, its saving time

Puff vs.
sheik: 30-70
marth: 20-80
fox: 60-40
falco: 50-50
peach: 50-50
falcon: 50-50
ganon: 50-50
IC: 55-45
samus: 75-25
bowser: 60-40

Thats all the numbers there atm, people agree that its the same for B+??

Nonononono

Sheik is probably at least 45-55, perhaps even 55-45. Jigglypuff can combo her and easily gimp both her recoveries, the problem is Sheik can combo Jigglypuff to high percents.

Marth? It still sucks, but I never thought of it as that polarized. I don't have much experience with the matchup, but 20-80 seems like too much.

Fox: 55-45, 50-50? Both characters can do RIDICULOUS things to eachother, but Jigglypuff has the gimping advantage. It's a tough matchup in general.

All ratios have Jigglypuff as the first number. I might say more later, I have to go.

yeah i guess since fox doesnt have his 50% kill upsmash anymore it'll be more even for jiggs vs fox.

Think this is a good base though, sure its completely up for discussion, but wont be far off this. Sheik still ***** falcon for example

So what is the consensus on all of this? Any other arguments against those jigglypuff matchups?

 

[jalued]

So what is the consensus on all of this? Any other arguments against those jigglypuff matchups?

jiggs vs fox is even, jiggs vs samus is ****, jiggs vs sheik is prob 55-45 jiggs favour (i think, dont quote me lol). jiggs vs marth is porb 70-30, maybe 60-40 in marths favour

 

[Meru.]

I was sarcastic since Falcon gets ***** by those characters and he thought I was exaggerating.

You can't blame me. I thought Brawl+ was supposed to have minimal 'counter' match-ups, like 70:30s, but it seems there are already quite some. It surprises me, so I'm wondering whether it are the match-ups themselves or the fact that people quickly say that match-up is ****.

 

[kr3wman]

Well, against some characters (Marth, ROB, Yoshi) it's hard to get in and Falcon can't really do anything without being in.

Other ones (MK, Wolf) just **** Falcon more than he can **** them.

 

[Sulfur]

You can't blame me. I thought Brawl+ was supposed to have minimal 'counter' match-ups, like 70:30s, but it seems there are already quite some. It surprises me, so I'm wondering whether it are the match-ups themselves or the fact that people quickly say that match-up is ****.

Just wait until Ivy's matchups get talked about >.>

But on that note I wanna say ivy vs jiggs is 60:40. But then there's that whole gimping thing. Any thoughts on it.

 

[jalued]

Just wait until Ivy's matchups get talked about >.>

But on that note I wanna say ivy vs jiggs is 60:40. But then there's that whole gimping thing. Any thoughts on it.

ivys favour right? yeah sounds about right. Ifjiggz ever gets inside ivy he dies, but ivy can still kill jiggs at low %. and dont even mention edgeguarding yeah sounds about right, since ivysaur can camp alot with leaves and bair etc

how does ivy do against FFers? i feel her matchups vs big fattys will be significantly better than against thin edgeguarders, but thats just a guess lol

so sheik v ivy is prob about 80-20 lol

 

[Mattnumbers]

Things will be over exaggerated in the beginning, it's pretty much inevitable.

For instance, right now apparently Falcon gets medium countered by 7 people and Medium counters no one.

 

[Sulfur]

ivys favour right? yeah sounds about right. Ifjiggz ever gets inside ivy he dies, but ivy can still kill jiggs at low %. and dont even mention edgeguarding yeah sounds about right, since ivysaur can camp alot with leaves and bair etc

how does ivy do against FFers? i feel her matchups vs big fattys will be significantly better than against thin edgeguarders, but thats just a guess lol

so sheik v ivy is prob about 80-20 lol

Yeah, I would agree with that. Probably a counter to Squirtle and every other air based light character. Not totally sure about MK. Probably a huge disadvantage with less momentum, but it seems like he could keep him out pretty well.

 

[DarkDragoon]

I keep thinking I'm posting in this thread lol.

Updating/reposting the chart tonight using numbers I see in the first post.
...
So if you want it up to date, I'd get your numbers there.

Gonna use a 5-color system.

LightGreen - Large Advantage.[70:30~100:0]
Green - Advantage.[55:45~65:35]
Blue - Neutral.[50:50]
Red - Disadvantage.[35:65~45:55]
BrightRed - Large Disadvantage. [0:100~30:70]


Sound good?
-DD

 

[MK26]

no

10char

 

[kr3wman]

Put Falcon:Charizard as 65:35, played alot of games with Holy's ''Legitzard''.

It's not legit at all.

 

[[TSON]]

Jigglypuff
Bowser: 60:40
Falcon: 50:50
Falco: 50:50
Fox: 50:50
Ganon: 50:50
IC: 55:45
Lucas: 40:60
Marth: 30:70
Peach: 50:50
Sheik: 45:55

I WTF'd at everything in here. Everything.

ESPECIALLY the heavies and FFs.

Marth and Peach I can understand at least but everything else is just WAT
Does like nobody play a good Jiggz anymore?

 

[Shadic]

Gonna use a 5-color system.
LightGreen - Large Advantage.[70:30~100:0]
Green - Advantage.[55:45~65:35]
Blue - Neutral.[50:50]
Red - Disadvantage.[35:65~45:55]
BrightRed - Large Disadvantage. [0:100~30:70]
Sound good?-DD

Make all the colors lighter. Especially blue. Maybe swap it around. Example:

Green - Large Advantage.[70:30~100:0]
LightGreen - Advantage.[55:45~65:35]
Blue - Neutral.[50:50]
BrightRed - Disadvantage. [35:65~45:55]
Red - Large Disadvantage.[0:100~30:70]

Or something.

 

[MK26]

geeeeeeez

its blue/green/yellow/orange/red

lrn2rainbow

and yellow is everything from 55:45 to 45:55

 

[Sulfur]

I WTF'd at everything in here. Everything.

ESPECIALLY the heavies and FFs.

Marth and Peach I can understand at least but everything else is just WAT
Does like nobody play a good Jiggz anymore?

Yeah, I kept wondering about those. Jiggs IS actually different than melee, and most other characters are much different...

 

[Mattnumbers]

Why didn't you speak up when I asked what people thought about all of those matchups?

Post what you think they should be and some reasons why and I'll change it.

 

[CloneHat]

OK, here we go, Jiggs matchups... These are fast and concise.

Bowser: 60:40 Why such a small margin? Bowser is fat and predictable and gets rested. I haven't noticed anything good he has against Jigglypuff either, except that he kills at low percent, but good luck hitting with him.

Falcon 50:50 Jigglypuff definitely has some advantage here, as she can combo Falcon and gimp him. Falcon has trouble killing Jigglypuff with anything except uair, which doesn't kill early. At least 55:45.

Falco 50:50 Pffft. She can fly over his lasers, and he dies as soon as leaves the stage. Falco basically doesn't have good ways to rack up damage, and Jiggly kills him early anyway. More like 65:35 IMO, if not more.

Fox 50:50 This is pretty much true. Fox racks up damage fast without risking his neck and kills really early. Jigglypuff can kill him early too once she gets in, however.

Ganon 50:50 I don't know anything about this one, but I'd think Jigglypuff has a slight advantage at least? Where's ZeonStar...

IC 55:45 Jiggz can space them well and WOP one of them easily if they are separated. The IC can get damage off grabs and have powerful smashes, however, so I think it's a 60:40 or 55:45.

Lucas 40:60 I don't see the reasoning behind this.

Marth 30:70 Yeah.

Ness 60:40 I don't know about Ness, but I think this sounds fine.

Peach 50:50 All the Peach mains agreed it was 55:45 for Jigglypuff, she keeps Peach on her toes in this matchup.

Samus 75:25 Is it really that bad? Samus can still camp Jigglypuff and hang on for dear life, so I think it's a bit more like 70:30.

Sheik 45:55 I agree.

 

[Mattnumbers]

OK, here we go, Jiggs matchups... These are fast and concise.

Bowser: 60:40 Why such a small margin? Bowser is fat and predictable and gets rested. I haven't noticed anything good he has against Jigglypuff either, except that he kills at low percent, but good luck hitting with him.

Falcon 50:50 Jigglypuff definitely has some advantage here, as she can combo Falcon and gimp him. Falcon has trouble killing Jigglypuff with anything except uair, which doesn't kill early. At least 55:45.

Falco 50:50 Pffft. She can fly over his lasers, and he dies as soon as leaves the stage. Falco basically doesn't have good ways to rack up damage, and Jiggly kills him early anyway. More like 65:35 IMO, if not more.

Fox 50:50 This is pretty much true. Fox racks up damage fast without risking his neck and kills really early. Jigglypuff can kill him early too once she gets in, however.

Ganon 50:50 I don't know anything about this one, but I'd think Jigglypuff has a slight advantage at least? Where's ZeonStar...

IC 55:45 Jiggz can space them well and WOP one of them easily if they are separated. The IC can get damage off grabs and have powerful smashes, however, so I think it's a 60:40 or 55:45.

Lucas 40:60 I don't see the reasoning behind this.

Marth 30:70 Yeah.

Ness 60:40 I don't know about Ness, but I think this sounds fine.

Peach 50:50 All the Peach mains agreed it was 55:45 for Jigglypuff, she keeps Peach on her toes in this matchup.

Samus 75:25 Is it really that bad? Samus can still camp Jigglypuff and hang on for dear life, so I think it's a bit more like 70:30.

Sheik 45:55 I agree.

Bowser: I think I'll keep that one as is, I just don't see jigglypuff as such a huge threat to bowser. Maybe I will if someone brings up more specific examples.

Falcon: Ok I'll set it to 55:45

Falco: I think that's maybe a bit too much, but I see your point. I'll put it there as of now.

IC: I think I'll leave this one as is, as I don't see jiggs exploiting them more than most characters do.

Lucas: Veril told me this and I trust him because he is both a Jigglypuff player and a Lucas player.

Peach: Sure, if the peach mains already discussed this I'll move it to 55:45

Samus: Yeah I don't see it as being THAT hard a counter. I'll tone it down to 70:30 for now.