Brawl+ (Competitive Hacks): Codes, Videos, and Discussion (THREAD OUT OF DATE)

[Finns7]

sucks hard

 

[SketchHurricane]

After a few matches, downward gravity speeds the feel of the game up quite a bit (of course, we knew this anyway). I'm going to try out downward gravity only (probably 1.2) with no upward change and see how that feels. Ganon loses his auto cancel with 1.25 down, 1.05 up, but he'll probably lose it no matter what if we use these codes.

 

[Yeroc]

I'm still very much on the fence about this. At the least I severely dislike how the primary response I'm hearing from people is "like Melee." That's not the aim of Brawl+, it's to make the game competitive. Using Melee as inspiration is fine and dandy (I do like me some MAD) but we're not trying to completely remake this game to be like it's predecessor.

Right now I'm playing with 1.05/1.35, 10%, MAD, ALC and while it's got some good points it's got some bad ones too.

Recovery and off-stage edgeguarding get the slight nerf because you can't return from as far (I died as Sheik from a Ganon b-throw at 130 at the edge because I plain and simple couldn't make it back).

MAD above the stage as a combo escape is a little less punishable because you're more likely to get to ground when you fall that fast. I still would like to see how it works with MAD unrestricted.

ZSS gets the obvious extra recovery nerf, because she can't float out there as much. I can't tell if she combos better or worse because I haven't gotten used to the mechanics yet.

Sheik is really strange. Tilt locking might have been buffed, but I'm garbage at it so I can't tell. Her recovery is Melee Falco bad though.

Marth has no noticeable changes.

More when I try out some new characters.

Edit2: It's really hard to Hug with Falcon. I really need to get some human testing partners.

 

[zxeon]

After a few matches, downward gravity speeds the feel of the game up quite a bit (of course, we knew this anyway). I'm going to try out downward gravity only (probably 1.2) with no upward change and see how that feels. Ganon loses his auto cancel with 1.25 down, 1.05 up, but he'll probably lose it no matter what if we use these codes.

That's wierd because at x1 up and x1.5 down Gannon could still thunderstorm. I think you might be doin' it wrong.

 

[BrutalBrutal]

Just tested it. It works perfectly on my PAL Wii and PAL Brawl. I absolutely love this improved fall speed. Falcon falls at around the same speed as in Melee with this code on 1.5 . I love it.

 

[zxeon]

I'm still very much on the fence about this. At the least I severely dislike how the primary response I'm hearing from people is "like Melee." That's not the aim of Brawl+, it's to make the game competitive. Using Melee as inspiration is fine and dandy (I do like me some MAD) but we're not trying to completely remake this game to be like it's predecessor.

Right now I'm playing with 1.05/1.35, 10%, MAD, ALC and while it's got some good points it's got some bad ones too.

Recovery and off-stage edgeguarding get the slight nerf because you can't return from as far (I died as Sheik from a Ganon b-throw at 130 at the edge because I plain and simple couldn't make it back).

MAD above the stage as a combo escape is a little less punishable because you're more likely to get to ground when you fall that fast. I still would like to see how it works with MAD unrestricted.

ZSS gets the obvious extra recovery nerf, because she can't float out there as much. I can't tell if she combos better or worse because I haven't gotten used to the mechanics yet.

Sheik is really strange. Tilt locking might have been buffed, but I'm garbage at it so I can't tell. Her recovery is Melee Falco bad though.

Marth has no noticeable changes.

More when I try out some new characters.

Edit2: It's really hard to Hug with Falcon. I really need to get some human testing partners.

Hell, haven't we already changed a bunch of things already? I believe that if faster falling speeds are to be used they should be accompanied with lower hitstun. The fact that people are saying "It's more like Melee" shouldn't keep the game from getting any better. Maybe this is just the next step in the evolution of this game.

 

[Yeroc]

I agree, if making the game more like Melee makes it a deeper, more competitive fighting game I'm all for it (see: MAD). But we have all the power imaginable at our fingertips. We can make this game however we want. We can change it so only 2 characters are really viable if we so chose. But I really think the ultimate end for everyone involved with or following this project is to see Brawl transformed into something that those players who want a truly deep and competitive experience can have fun playing. Towards that end, I'm seeing a lot of people doing it (or giving every impression of looking at it) somewhat backwards. They're taking the things that made Melee great and trying to take them ounce for ounce and insert them into Brawl. Dash dancing? Not strictly necessary, but Melee had it. I'm in favor of trying to find something like that or similar, btw. My real point is this: Fall speed is a completely optional code. It is not a mechanic that's actually broken in the usual sense. Everyone just seems to want to make this change to the game on an almost aesthetic level. It feels better this way, you might say, and I might even agree with you. But I'm just saying that our first priority should be and ought to remain trying to make the game deeper, better, more competitive, and if possible more balanced, before we go about making it more aligned with how we think it should feel.

 

[Heavyarms2050]

and once we get majority of the brawl and melee community to accept brawl+, we may have a standard for professional competition.

 

[zxeon]

A bit of fall speed might be a good tool to use to help compliment hitstun. With this code we can break down another part of the game engine into something we can mold.

 

[SketchHurricane]

That's wierd because at x1 up and x1.5 down Gannon could still thunderstorm. I think you might be doin' it wrong.

That's the thing though - I think any upward gravity whatsoever will prevent the thunderstorm. I switched to 1.25 down, 1 up, and it worked. It's probably because the jump height is the most important factor in the auto cancel.

I'll try 1.5 down and see what happens. I'll also experiment with tiny increments of up-grav and see how that goes.

Recovery and off-stage edgeguarding get the slight nerf because you can't return from as far (I died as Sheik from a Ganon b-throw at 130 at the edge because I plain and simple couldn't make it back)

Actually, I prefer this. I don't like that Brawl matches generally last into the 150s, and thus I'm fine with some earlier deaths. Reading your other complaints, I think your forgetting the fact that we are still in heavy testing of all this. We've been through the whole Melee 2.0 discussion and most people understand that is not the goal. Anything that we feel makes the game better should be the criteria, not Melee. But we obviously have Melee to compare things, since we love our Melee. There are still a lot of codes to experiment with, and I think your getting a bit antsy. The best thing you can do at this point is do some heavy testing yourself and give us valuable feedback. You have the power to shape Brawl+ as much as the next man!

Having said all that, I do notice some bad things about fall speed. Certain tactics aren't possible, or are made impractical. It's mostly ledge stuff obviously. It basically puts the person on the ledge at a bigger disadvantage since they have to be careful of the fall speed. Then again, maybe that's a good thing...

 

[metaXzero]

Hmm.. any plans of vids?

 

[matt4300]

so what are the 2 percents everyone is testing atm for the up/down speed codes?

 

[SketchHurricane]

I think 1.5 is a bit much for down with no up to accompany it. I'm going to try out 1.4 down, and start from 1.01 up, testing autocancels and combos along the way. I probably record some stuff tomorrow.

Just as I suspected - the up mod is the primary culprit in removing auto-cancel. Falcon loses his at 1.02, Ganon loses his at 1.03, haven't tested anyone else (this is with 1.5 down, too).

The tilt combos get way redic on 1.5down/.515hs though. I'll mess with the values more tommorrow.

 

[Starscream]

The codes can be used separately. The first line affects 'upwards gravity' - that is, the height at which you jump and how far an upwards-sending move will actually send you. A higher value results in a higher gravity and thus a lower height.

So let me get this straight. Using a HIGHER value, as in anything above 1.0 will result in higher gravity and lower height for anything upward sending? If so, then why are people using values above 1.0? Wouldn't that just make gravity even higher and jump heights lower on top of the downward sending code? Someone please correct me if I'm way off base.

On another note 1.5 down with 1.1 speed modifier is so wicked, glitches aside and vertical kill nerfs aside. Really fun but I wouldn't stick with 1.5. I however would love a fixed speed modifier without any of the weird glitches, which I'm sure are plenty. Like when you use Ganon's side+b you seem to slide back quite a bit when you grab someone.

Right now I'm testing 1.35 downward gravity with 1.065 damage ratio. Back to the roots of the old gravity code. Some info I've gathered about this setting: in codeless Brawl Fox's up smash will kill Bowser off the top of FD with in training mode with damage preset to 102%. With 1.35 downward gravity and 1.065 damage ratio Fox's up smash kills Bowser off the top of FD in training mode with damage preset to 103%. So the vertical kill nerf is about 1% with this setting, but there is going to be a small horizontal kill buff. Make of it what you will.

All this was done using 11% hitstun.

EDIT: Aaaand Falco can chaingrab certain characters again with that setting. Heck he can chaingrab even without the damage ratio mod, he can do a standing chaingrab on Bowser till about 50% and then chase chaingrab. This is all with 1.35 downward gravity. Could he already do this in standard gravity on 11% hitstun? Too tired to test it. It still puts you into tumble from the first throw so maybe you can DI out of it. I don't have a human partner to test with. As far as I know, D3 still can't chaingrab.

 

[Alopex]

Until we get a code that allows us to DI weak hits, messing too much with the fall speed is guaranteed Utilt trouble.

 

[BrutalBrutal]

Hey, I've been testing this, and while I absolutely love it and would opt for ~1.5 fallspeed (trust me, it has a much subtler effect than you would expect). However, one thing I've noticed so far is that this code currently has a downfall:

Characters' maximum horizontal speed in the air is not affected. Since characters are in the air for a shorter duration of time, and travel at the same speed, they get less distance from a jump. It nerfs recoveries, but only slightly: the real problem with this is comboing. This will all be fixed though, once we find a code to increase the max horizontal airspeed for characters, and once we have the "keep the momentum from your run when you jump" code.

I will post vids showing 1.5x and 2x fallspeed. Being a PAL player, I don't have hitstun, L-cancel or MAD to complement this (it's about time we PAL gamers got something Brawl+ related to play with), but it will give you a general idea.

 

[matt4300]

Hey, I've been testing this, and while I absolutely love it and would opt for ~1.5 fallspeed (trust me, it has a much subtler effect than you would expect). However, one thing I've noticed so far is that this code currently has a downfall:

Characters' maximum horizontal speed in the air is not affected. Since characters are in the air for a shorter duration of time, and travel at the same speed, they get less distance from a jump. It nerfs recoveries, but only slightly: the real problem with this is comboing. This will all be fixed though, once we find a code to increase the max horizontal airspeed for characters, and once we have the "keep the momentum from your run when you jump" code.

I will post vids showing 1.5x and 2x fallspeed. Being a PAL player, I don't have hitstun, L-cancel or MAD to complement this (it's about time we PAL gamers got something Brawl+ related to play with), but it will give you a general idea.

uhhh do you guys not see a pattern here... everytime we add a code we need 2 to fix it.

oh and i havent notice the recoveries being worse but im useing 1.4 fall speed and 1.01 upwardness-- ish...

 

[BrutalBrutal]

Oh wow, I'm silly. I just now used someone besides Captain Falcon for the first time using this code, and realised I'd forgotten that Brawl characters' fall speeds were homogenized. While Captain Falcon falls at about his Melee speed, King Dedede falls almost as fast, which might screw him over (I noticed that he can still autocancel his bair, nair and fair though). I'll try x1.35, but I hold that we need to fix horizontal move speeds, not just because of this new code, but because it was desperately needed anyway and is even more so now.

I have to go now but I am trying to upload a 1.5x fallspeed only demonstration.

 

[Almas]

Can someone explain this 'DI weak hits' phenomenon to me? I'm not quite sure what you mean. Surely you can't DI because the time between hits is so short, and that has nothing to do with the hit itself? And I'm fairly sure you can still SDI...

 

[VietGeek]

This game is like...so broken. xD

I love it! It's sooooo fun, even in its current developmental stage.

I recorded a Brawl+ set. Although it was more or less our first time playing Brawl+ (we're sorry that we suck) I used...

11.75% Hitstun
No random tripping
No triple jump glitch
Auto L-canceling

...sorry but I don't like Melee Airdodge in its current execution. Maybe in the future?

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=A8AAE11411E69B31

 

[Revven]

No triple jump glitch

Don't use the triple jump glitch code fix anymore, it causes more problems than it does fix (according to kupo). Wait until the finalized version which PW is working on.

 

[VietGeek]

Don't use the triple jump glitch code fix anymore, it causes more problems than it does fix (according to kupo). Wait until the finalized version which PW is working on.

Oh really?

Thanks for the heads up.

*removes code from code manager*

Sorry Marth, guess you have to fastfall Nair to remove lag after your departure from the ledge. <__<

Could you mind telling me what problems precisely?

 

[Deleted member]

Content removed to lighten my internet footprint.

 

[Revven]

Could you mind telling me what problems precisely?

I don't actually remember what problems there were but, they were pretty significant... Something to do with another animation I think. You'll have to ask kupo. Anyway, that aside, I'm surprised you didn't use Auto L-Canceling or L-Canceling in general. >_>

Still *watches rest of the matches*

 

[VietGeek]

....

Crap I did use Auto L-cancels...<_<

*rushes to go edit all video descriptions*

 

[BrutalBrutal]

Here's a video of x1.5 fallspeed: http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=e7gO8a2jG0w . Enjoy!

It shows several characters jumping around on FD, as well as me sloppily whaling on a CPU as Falcon (yes, I know I sucked). Ganon can still thunderstomp, and DDD can still autocancel 3 of his aerials too.

 

[kupo15]

Actually, I prefer this. I don't like that Brawl matches generally last into the 150s, and thus I'm fine with some earlier deaths.

I know what you mean but I don't believe this is the way to go with that. Even in melee if you did a half ***** job at DI, in most cases, you could make it back to an unguarded edge but in brawl with the gravity, you can't. Instead of making people not physically able to come back, I think the best alternative (and you should see this in a week) is the no auto sweet spot ledges. That is the reason why everyone can come back from anywhere. There is no edge guarding game. When this comes out, I think you will find that its a better game when they can come back only if the edge guarder sucks at edge guarding..

This game is like...so broken. xD

I love it! It's sooooo fun, even in its current developmental stage.

I recorded a Brawl+ set. Although it was more or less our first time playing Brawl+ (we're sorry that we suck) I used...

11.75% Hitstun
No random tripping
No triple jump glitch
Auto L-canceling

...sorry but I don't like Melee Airdodge in its current execution. Maybe in the future?

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=A8AAE11411E69B31

Yea, don't use that code but its funny how that code doesn't apply to wolf and toon link. That was a nice opening TL combo, i still have to watch the rest. These matches are really neat. I look forward to your future matches when you have more experience with brawl+. And something weird I noticed is that I feel like I can escape combos easier with a jump or an attack over an air dodge.

You might want to add this. Its not complete but it is really refreshing. Atm, you can only use down.

Lagless Edges: Phantom wings (32 lines) **BETA
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60000006 00000000
60000003 00000001
4A001000 00000000
4A101001 00000000
36000000 00000032
58010000 00000004
DE000000 80008180
58010000 00000060
DE000000 80008180
92210002 00000068
92210003 0000007C
58010000 0000007C
58010000 0000002C
58010000 00000004
92210004 00000018
4A001003 00000000
30000038 00000074
4A001002 00000000
3400003C 80000000
4A001004 00000000
1200004E 0000000E
12000008 00000002
E2000002 00000000
80100001 00000008
62000000 00000001
E200000F 00000000
80000001 00000000
80100000 00000244
62000000 00000000
E0000000 80008000

 

[Alopex]

Can someone explain this 'DI weak hits' phenomenon to me? I'm not quite sure what you mean. Surely you can't DI because the time between hits is so short, and that has nothing to do with the hit itself? And I'm fairly sure you can still SDI...

From what I've gathered, several weak hits in the game don't let you really SDI out of them. Sheik's Ftilt lock relies on this, many Utilts do so too. Sheik's Ftilt can be DI'd out of eventually because when the percentage gets high enough, it stops being a weak hit.

Wind Owl knows more about this than I do, though, so it would be best if he gave the detailed clarification.

 

[Shell]

If you turn your hitstun back down to 10%, you'll balance out many of the utilt combos caused by gravity.

I didn't realize that up grav directly affects auto-canceling. I'll check it out.

Also, there is no need for damage ratio / knockback modifiers with the downwards only gravity modifiers. That's the beautiful thing about it -- in only affects gravity on the way back down. Now, if you add some upwards gravity, perhaps. But if it's less than 1.05 it won't make a significant difference.

Lastly, kupo15, I agree with you about this not being the proper way to nerf recoveries, but I still think a compromise with more moderate gravity levels would still slightly nerf recoveries (good to me), while tightening up flow of the game.

Later this afternoon I'll play around with 1.00 - 1.05 up and 1.00 - 1.50 down and find my favorite values for testing. Like I said, I'll try to report back with effects on autocancels (Thunderstorm, double fairs in particular), recoveries, and game flow.

 

[leafgreen386]

Shell: No. You're wrong. It doesn't matter which direction you're hit in when you're in knockback - the game will always consider you as "falling." Only jumps and certain momentum altering aerials and specials use upward gravity. Knockback does not use upward gravity ever. Increasing the falling gravity will give both a buff to horizontal kill moves and a nerf to upward vertical kill moves.

 

[SketchHurricane]

So let me get this straight. Using a HIGHER value, as in anything above 1.0 will result in higher gravity and lower height for anything upward sending? If so, then why are people using values above 1.0? Wouldn't that just make gravity even higher and jump heights lower on top of the downward sending code? Someone please correct me if I'm way off base.

Correct. The reason to use a higher value is to create shorter short hops. In the end, I don't think it's worth it and will not be used.

Right now I'm testing 1.35 downward gravity with 1.065 damage ratio. Back to the roots of the old gravity code. Some info I've gathered about this setting: in codeless Brawl Fox's up smash will kill Bowser off the top of FD with in training mode with damage preset to 102%. With 1.35 downward gravity and 1.065 damage ratio Fox's up smash kills Bowser off the top of FD in training mode with damage preset to 103%. So the vertical kill nerf is about 1% with this setting, but there is going to be a small horizontal kill buff. Make of it what you will.

I don't see why you need a damage buff at all. The downward modifier should not effect up kills at all if used independently. As long as your upward mod is at 1.0, it should be the same...right?.

the real problem with this is comboing. This will all be fixed though, once we find a code to increase the max horizontal airspeed for characters, and once we have the "keep the momentum from your run when you jump" code.

This is what I've noticed. Most of the combos I could do w/ Falcon for instance could not be done with 1.5. I had to use up throw for pretty much any combo starter since the opponent would hit the ground long before I could get to them with most other attacks. You can still get some sick combos with the incredible fast fall to a dashing attack, but 1.5 is way too much at the moment, as the uptilt combos become way ridiculous.

I'm gonna test 1.3 and thereabouts for a while. In the end, we can always lower the hit stun too, which will probably be mandatory.

Edit: Well looks like SHeLL beat me to some of those answers!

Later this afternoon I'll play around with 1.00 - 1.05 up and 1.00 - 1.50 down and find my favorite values for testing. Like I said, I'll try to report back with effects on autocancels (Thunderstorm, double fairs in particular), recoveries, and game flow.

Like I said earlier:
1.03/1.5 Ganon loses thunderstomp
1.02/1.5 Falcon loses dair autocancel

I'm pretty sure the 1.5 has no effect, because the fall speed doesn't even kick in with short hops (unless you fast fall)

 

[kupo15]

If you turn your hitstun back down to 10%, you'll balance out many of the utilt combos caused by gravity.

I didn't realize that up grav directly affects auto-canceling. I'll check it out.

Also, there is no need for damage ratio / knockback modifiers with the downwards only gravity modifiers. That's the beautiful thing about it -- in only affects gravity on the way back down. Now, if you add some upwards gravity, perhaps. But if it's less than 1.05 it won't make a significant difference.

Lastly, kupo15, I agree with you about this not being the proper way to nerf recoveries, but I still think a compromise with more moderate gravity levels would still slightly nerf recoveries (good to me), while tightening up flow of the game.

Later this afternoon I'll play around with 1.00 - 1.05 up and 1.00 - 1.50 down and find my favorite values for testing. Like I said, I'll try to report back with effects on autocancels (Thunderstorm, double fairs in particular), recoveries, and game flow.

Maybe, the way Im approaching this project is to make brawl as competitive as possible with minimal hacking. The floatiness is a small problem but Im going to start experimenting with those sorts of codes when the basics are taken care of. This way I ca see how brawl feels in its natural competitiveness before adding preference codes. I think this is a good way to approach it so I have something solid to compare the codes with to determine feel.

And about the utilt spam, I think that the no decay will solve that. But if you are using brawls gravity, 11.75% is still highly recommended and a lot of people seem to like that setting. I am perfectly fine dealing with stupid stuff at the moment and I personally rather not put on codes that will attempt to emulate the final version. Just my take on it...

 

[leafgreen386]

I don't see why you need a damage buff at all. The downward modifier should not effect up kills at all if used independently. As long as your upward mod is at 1.0, it should be the same...right?.

See:

Shell: No. You're wrong. It doesn't matter which direction you're hit in when you're in knockback - the game will always consider you as "falling." Only jumps and certain momentum altering aerials and specials use upward gravity. Knockback does not use upward gravity ever. Increasing the falling gravity will give both a buff to horizontal kill moves and a nerf to upward vertical kill moves.

The post right before yours...

 

[Shell]

I understand that gravity will buff horizontal kills indirectly due to worse recoveries, but are you sure that downward gravity affects vertical kills?

I'm probably wrong, but would you mind doing some vertical kill tests for me? I only got a couple quick matches in, but Fox and Mario's usmash seemed to be killing at the right percentages.

 

[zxeon]

Oops, lol I didn't have the code on. Upon further research I found that for Fox to K.O. Fox off the top of Final destination regularly it's around 82% but at x1.5 falling gravity its around 95%. In my opinion that's not that bad of a nerf and I don't think we'll be using x1.5 it's a little much. Hey, atleast it doesn't mess with actual upward momentum.

This is from earier. I think it's reasonable. At the extreme downard pull of 1.5 the difference is only about 10%. God forbid you have to do another drill shine right?

 

[leafgreen386]

Set the downward gravity to some large value, then try using fox's usmash in training mode. It will not KO until much later than it should. I've already tested this, but I'll get the exact values for you now...

Fox normally kills himself with usmash at 83%. It isn't until 91% that he dies with the falling gravity changed to 1.25 and the upward grav is left alone. Fox normally kills marth at 90%, but it is not until 96% that he can kill him with the same settings.

edit: zxeon, fox isn't who we're trying to not nerf with this. He's simply an easy character to test this with. Honestly, fox killing later is probably a good thing, but the numerous other characters that have their upward kills weakened feel the pain.

 

[zxeon]

Lol, did Fox always die from a Fsmash tipper from Marth at the edge of Final Destination at 60%?

Fox couldn't make it back to the stage...because he exploded off the side.

One thing the fall speed code does is make launched enemies take a more horizontal tajectory when hit resulting in a sooner death.

I wasn't suggesting nerfing fox I was just using him for testing because he has a strong Usmash. Why would anyone want to nerf Fox?

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

marth's tipper kills a lot of characters at early percents.

 

[Deleted member]

Content removed to lighten my internet footprint.

 

[Shell]

Wow, paprika killer, you're my savior.

Right now I'm testing 1.35 downward gravity with 1.065 damage ratio. Back to the roots of the old gravity code. Some info I've gathered about this setting: in codeless Brawl Fox's up smash will kill Bowser off the top of FD with in training mode with damage preset to 102%. With 1.35 downward gravity and 1.065 damage ratio Fox's up smash kills Bowser off the top of FD in training mode with damage preset to 103%. So the vertical kill nerf is about 1% with this setting, but there is going to be a small horizontal kill buff. Make of it what you will.

If Starscream's right about a vertical kill bonus of 1.065, then the appropriate NTSC code would be around:

Vertical Knockback Modifier - paprika killer
04641528 3F8851EB