Brawl+ (Competitive Hacks): Codes, Videos, and Discussion (THREAD OUT OF DATE)

[kupo15]

I think its funny how people think jab locking is ok, it's sad what brawl has done to people.

lol, or any "combo" for that matter in which the comboed player can't do anything to help get himself out of it...

 

[thesage]

I think its funny how people think jab locking is ok, it's sad what brawl has done to people.

There were definitely waaaaay gayer things in melee that were easier to set up.

 

[Wind Owl]

Like what?

 

[kupo15]

DDD's CG, DDD's infinite CG, and that includes laser locking also

 

[Wind Owl]

Wait, DDD can chaingrab in Melee? I thought that only worked on spacies...

 

[Oracle]

Because it can happen SO often now because more moves put you into the tumble sooner based off of how much hitstun you have on which in turn makes you mistime your tech and thus you fall on your back and can easily get into a jab lock. Which can then happen a second time in the same match if the person misses the tech again.

It's like that in melee. Some moves have good stun, but little knockback. That's why you develop what the people who don't play barwl like to call "reflexes"

 

[Revven]

It's like that in melee. Some moves have good stun, but little knockback. That's why you develop what the people who don't play barwl like to call "reflexes"

That isn't to say it isn't possible to tech 100% of the time, I was just saying for those who LACK those reflexes. >_>; (I don't though... however, I haven't tried out the hitstun yet so... I'm being a little conceited).

Simply put, jab locks are gay and should've never existed in Brawl in the first place.

 

[Finns7]

Yes. You can tech by pressing L or R as you reach the ground. Thank you for informing us.

>_> dude Im just saying people are finding it hard to tech with this added hitstun, and Im just saying that if you press down as your tumbling and combine down and L or R it techs better to me, Idk I put up a vid to explain further

 

[thesage]

They don't even have to tech. They can just roll by holding left or right. It drastically reduces the chance of a jab lock from any aerial. Jab locks don't usually work at higher percents w/ proper DI.

I still don't get how 15 - 20% is gay. There are way gayer things that should be in eliminated from brawl. I think grab release combos are gay cuz there is nothing you can do to escape those, and I still think they should be left in brawl.

 

[SGX]

I still don't think nerfing Powershielding is necessary or desirable. Definitely not to the point to where you can't do it consistently.

I'm kind of worried about shield stun. I hope it doesn't make things like Lucario's d-air way too good.

Imo, things like increased gravity (without nerfed jumps/recovery) and dash dancing should be a much higher priority.

 

[kupo15]

I still don't think nerfing Powershielding is necessary or desirable. Definitely not to the point to where you can't do it consistently.

Perfect shielding now is a joke. There should be skill involved in perfect shielding. Why make something as powerful as PSing so easy? Makes no sense..

Melee perfected the shields and brawl screwed it up.

I'm kind of worried about shield stun. I hope it doesn't make things like Lucario's d-air way too good.

Dont worry. We only want enough stun so that you cant shield grab them in between the first and second hits, but not too much as to be stuck in shield lock for the next move..Same goes with every multi hit thing. We just want enough so that you can't grab ppl out of their moves, only when they are recovering from the end of the move..

 

[CT Chia]

lol, If you only want no lag ledges, the ledges will be OP. Imagine as Marth for example, up b, auto sweet spot into a lagless ledge so you can immediately do anything. I wonder if this is one reason they added lag to ledges

I already thought about this and it's fine. upB's in Brawl don't autosweetspot if they are used when you are still right next to the ledge. If someone attempts to try and stall with it, they'll have to be far enough away to the point where you should be able to just hug the ledge, ending up in killing them. or if it is terrible, then remove ledge snapping. it shouldnt be hard, there are already chars in brawl without ledge snapping - sonic and wario.

Because it can happen SO often now because more moves put you into the tumble sooner based off of how much hitstun you have on which in turn makes you mistime your tech and thus you fall on your back and can easily get into a jab lock. Which can then happen a second time in the same match if the person misses the tech again.

jab locking doesn't happen often now. tech or get up when ur knocked down. when me and wind owl played for like an hour he kept trying to lock me and he couldnt do it once the entire time. you gotta be pretty stupid to get locked that you deserve the damage lol

 

[kupo15]

I already thought about this and it's fine. upB's in Brawl don't autosweetspot if they are used when you are still right next to the ledge. If someone attempts to try and stall with it, they'll have to be far enough away to the point where you should be able to just hug the ledge, ending up in killing them. or if it is terrible, then remove ledge snapping. it shouldnt be hard, there are already chars in brawl without ledge snapping - sonic and wario.

I wasnt thinking about stalling purposes, like, it would make edguarding much easier with this quick and reliable way to grab the ledge before instantly guarding. We were planning on removing both and they should be separate codes i think...not sure..

The more I think about it, these codes don't seem hard at all. We are not adding anything new, just finding and changing values which I think is pretty textbook stuff...

 

[SketchHurricane]

I wouldn't worry about shield stun getting out of hand, people. We can almost guarantee at this point that if the code is made at all, it will have a modifier to play with. The grab ranges in Brawl are ridiculous with some characters. I know it's a strength for them, but I can't count the number of times I've been grabbed out of a "safe" aerial from ridiculous range. Just enough stun to prevent things like that will go a long way in nerfing defense in general.

 

[Wind Owl]

jab locking doesn't happen often now. tech or get up when ur knocked down. when me and wind owl played for like an hour he kept trying to lock me and he couldnt do it once the entire time. you gotta be pretty stupid to get locked that you deserve the damage lol

Yeah, this. Even when I knew he would fall on his butt and tried to laser lock him immediately, he would just get up.

 

[SGX]

Shield stun will be fine as long as everything is not safe.

Exactly how many frames is the PS window in Brawl? I know that its 1 in melee.

 

[Magus420]

The window is actually 4 for physical hits and 2 for projectiles in Melee.

 

[Alopex]

I don't see why anyone would want to actually keep the jab/laser/icicle locks.

I can understand prioritizing other things first (like shieldstun, powershield nerf), but I don't think anyone can actually provide a reason to actually KEEP those locks in the game. There's no doubt that Brawl (and Brawl+) would be better off if those locks weren't even a possibility regardless of how often they are pulled.

They don't augment the game. Just remove them and that's that.


I also don't understand the ledge-snapping thing. Are you trying to remove it because YOU don't like doing it, or because you don't like your OPPONENTS doing it?
Chibo, what I'm getting is that you want to be able to do an UpB without snapping to the ledge. You can already do that by just holding down after the UpB command. But I'm positive you know this, so I'm going to assume that the problem is your opponents doing it, because it makes recoveries too easy?

Recoveries will be too easy forever in Brawl. I'm fairly certain Brawl+ won't be able to change that. Removing the ledge-snap won't do anything to make recoveries harder, really. Only Link really relies on that ledge-snap mechanic.
Besides, we still don't know what no ledge-snap will do to tethers.
The ledge-snap is minor and I really don't see it as something we should be focusing on right now.
Maybe later, when you know for sure that we'll still have lines remaining after the important things are done.

Same goes for DashDancing. Not really an important enough mechanic to try to bring back. It was nifty in Melee, but it's hardly a necessity. And my analog sticks are loose enough as it is.

 

[Osi]

Jab lock is a iffy fix though. The jab is useful, so nerfing the hell out of it to just stop one move could be a problem. Not saying the fix would have to do this, but it could occur.


Man I am loving this. It's like learning melee all over again with new characters, AT timing, and combos. So freaking fun lol. Has anyone seen a really high level tourney player with their hands on it (or have a vid of it?). I'm interested to see just how fast the gameplay is with WDing done smoothly on brawl. My group of melee friends are able to WD and all, but our platform WDing is not smooth at all yet on brawl, and we aren't good enough at brawl WDing to work it into our movesets yet. Not as much as in melee at least. I'd like to hear about any really experienced people on the hack version since we haven't had our hands on it long.

This saved brawl for us.

 

[Alopex]

The description of the No Jab Lock code on the first page is the perfect description of what that sort of code would need to do.

"You automatically stand up if you're hit while fallen, without bouncing."

Nothing needs to be done to the jab itself. Just that silly bouncing/laying down animation that you can't tech out of. It's quite a dumb mechanic... if you're hitting the ground, you should be able to tech...

Making the person immediately stand up is an appropriate fix if we can't make that animation techable with a code.


Speaking of dumb animations... grab releases should be looked at, both air releases (Wario...) and ground releases (Ness's against Marth's grab...).
I don't know what can be done, but a lot of those animations are lametastic. I don't know why the Melee system of the air release just being a jump wasn't implemented in Brawl...


EDIT: I actually don't like WDing in Brawl. It think it's odd and doesn't fit in, along with the Melee Air Dodge. I've always been with Kupo on this one. I've no plans to include MAD in my Brawl+.

 

[kupo15]

Recoveries will be too easy forever in Brawl. I'm fairly certain Brawl+ won't be able to change that. Removing the ledge-snap won't do anything to make recoveries harder, really. Only Link really relies on that ledge-snap mechanic.
Besides, we still don't know what no ledge-snap will do to tethers.
The ledge-snap is minor and I really don't see it as something we should be focusing on right now.
Maybe later, when you know for sure that we'll still have lines remaining after the important things are done.
.

Its very important. The ledge game is one element that makes smash interesting. If you have a ledge mechanic where all ppl have to do is get under the ledge and up to safety, then that removes something from the game. Yes you can gimp them "sometimes" but a lot of the time it puts you at a disadvantage to gimp them when missing is so easy. IDK how one would attempt to gimp GaW. Once he is below the stage, I just give up and wait for him to come back.

Removing this will make coming back harder since you can punish them and send them out without a double jump. It won't affect Link as far as physically being able to get back because if he uses the auto sweet spot to recover, then he is more than barely close enough to the ledge. The tethers will not be affected because they are programmed differently...Im sure of that. Try holding down when tethering and you will still tether...

The window is actually 4 for physical hits and 2 for projectiles in Melee.

Since brawl doesn't seem to make the distinction, how many frames should I request for PSing?

 

[Kyd]

Ok here is an idea about this crisis of locking. Is it possible to make a code to tech theportion of the animation where u actually touch the ground? Being able to tech that small detail would eliminate all need for the argument and keep everything else the way it should be (is it still possible to tech smash attacks and such while recovering?).

Since brawl doesn't seem to make the distinction, how many frames should I request for PSing?

I say 2.

Its very important. The ledge game is one element that makes smash interesting. If you have a ledge mechanic where all ppl have to do is get under the ledge and up to safety, then that removes something from the game. Yes you can gimp them "sometimes" but a lot of the time it puts you at a disadvantage to gimp them when missing is so easy. IDK how one would attempt to gimp GaW. Once he is below the stage, I just give up and wait for him to come back.

Removing this will make coming back harder since you can punish them and send them out without a double jump. It won't affect Link as far as physically being able to get back and the tethers will not be affected because they are programmed differently.Try holding down when tethering and you will still tether...

Fully support this. The best thing to do is test it. Make the code and check the effect it has on tethers. I dont believe they will be affect any more than needing to have the correct angle for them.

 

[kupo15]

I say 2.

I think that is a reasonable number. What is the current window?

 

[Almas]

I would consider that powershield against projectiles, while 'easy to do' and 'always the best strategy' is not, necessarily, overpowered. Unlike melee the reflective property is lost, and Brawl is already a game where ranged attacks dominate. Making the best/only means of protection for some characters much harder to do only serves to increase the campiness of the game.

In regards to melee attacks, there is more of a point. How are we certain that the game doesn't distinguish between the two?

 

[kupo15]

I would consider that powershield against projectiles, while 'easy to do' and 'always the best strategy' is not, necessarily, overpowered. Unlike melee the reflective property is lost, and Brawl is already a game where ranged attacks dominate. Making the best/only means of protection for some characters much harder to do only serves to increase the campiness of the game.

In regards to melee attacks, there is more of a point. How are we certain that the game doesn't distinguish between the two?

Good point, however, adding reflective properties would be easy to do and it is requested to have several versions so ppl can swap out properties.

We are not sure that there is a distinction between the two...

 

[Magus420]

Since brawl doesn't seem to make the distinction, how many frames should I request for PSing?

I say request that it be made so that we can adjust the number for it to find the best value through playtesting.

If it's not possible to have physical and projectiles separate and I had to give a number, I'd say 5 or maybe 6 for the window and not have it reflect projectiles. Why? Having it reflect would be too powerful if the window is higher than 3-4 since they are much easier to time correctly than physical hits, and having the window be that low really limits its usefulness for physical hits which I feel adds a good amount of depth to the game. While reflecting is nice, if it means sacrificing the viability of PSing physical hits to make it work then I don't think it's worth it.

Making the timing for physical hits even lower than in Melee will just make it near useless. Unlike most other games with parries with very small timing windows, there isn't nearly as much risk to simply blocking an attack normally in this game (even with added shieldstun) to justify its use very often and risk getting hit/comboed if it's mistimed, and with the more open ended and different style of gameplay there's fewer moves and sequences with reliable block timings to require the window to be so small.

PSing projectiles will still be an effective defense strategy without reflecting, and the risk/reward for both projectiles and physical hits should be much more balanced in this case than a very tight ~2 frame timing with reflective properties (good for projectiles but too much risk to justify the reward on physical PSs), or a more lenient ~5 frame timing with reflective properties (good for physical hits but too much reward for the risk on projectile PSing).

While the 5-6 figure might seem high (though still significantly lower than it is currently), it's mostly just too easy the way it is because while it not only has a larger window, it also doesn't require you to time the actual button press with the hit. You can 'auto' PS by simply holding the button down and if you happen to get hit as your shield is going up you will PS, even if you began holding it well before then during lag and you get hit after it ends when your shield is coming out. The timing was 4 in Melee, and you very rarely see people being able to time it consistently enough in smash's gameplay/environment to be able to create a viable strategy off of it on physical hits.


However, if physical and projectile powershielding can be separate, I'd suggest 3 for projectiles with reflective properties, and the 5 or maybe 6 for physical hits.

 

[Alopex]

I fully agree with EVERYTHING Magus said. Not a sentence I didn't nod at. It's exactly what I want from Brawl+ Powershield.

 

[MuBa]

Any codes that are made should have a modifier. That way it'll be easier to find out the most desirable effect.

 

[kupo15]

I fully agree with EVERYTHING Magus said. Not a sentence I didn't nod at. It's exactly what I want from Brawl+ Powershield.

this is exactly what I shall be telling PW when he gets back. He has been away for 5 days.....

 

[thesage]

The description of the No Jab Lock code on the first page is the perfect description of what that sort of code would need to do.

"You automatically stand up if you're hit while fallen, without bouncing."

Nothing needs to be done to the jab itself. Just that silly bouncing/laying down animation that you can't tech out of. It's quite a dumb mechanic... if you're hitting the ground, you should be able to tech...

Jab locks don't work at higher percents. You can also DI them so that the damage racked up by them is very small (~15% on average). Very few characters can actually smash you out of it since you have to opportunity to roll away before most smash attack hitboxes come out. Why does it have to be removed? It's not powerful, nor does it happen frequently. Sure it's an infinite against walls, but all walled stages are counterpicks and there are other infinites on walls anyways.

Making the person immediately stand up is an appropriate fix if we can't make that animation techable with a code.

So instead of them eating a handful of jabs when they miss a tech and you jab them, they eat a smash attack. This also would be percent independent.

Speaking of dumb animations... grab releases should be looked at, both air releases (Wario...) and ground releases (Ness's against Marth's grab...).
I don't know what can be done, but a lot of those animations are lametastic. I don't know why the Melee system of the air release just being a jump wasn't implemented in Brawl...

Melee had the same system, just that either the grabber had more lag after a release or a grabee had less. Fox can almost ground grab release a lot of people.

Marth also doesn't have an infinite cg against Ness anymore. He still can grab release d-smash though.

 

[kupo15]

I have a better idea for fixing the grab release. I hate grab releases and think they are really stupid. Why don't we make grabbing 64 style with a forced Fthrow instead of a grab break? You would still be able to grab attack.

 

[Wind Owl]

Wow, that's actually a really cool idea.

 

[kupo15]

I would like it over dumb grab breaks. This way you know what direction you will be sent if they stall too long so you can DI properly.

 

[Starscream]

What's wrong with being able to escape a grab? A grab shouldn't be a guaranteed throw. If you get greedy with the grab attacks and your opponent escapes why shouldn't they be able to punish you?

 

[kupo15]

What's wrong with being able to escape a grab? A grab shouldn't be a guaranteed throw. If you get greedy with the grab attacks and your opponent escapes why shouldn't they be able to punish you?

If you get greedy and they escape, they can't punish you, its neutral. The "punishment" for getting greedy is that you throw them the wrong way. Why shouldn't grabs be a guaranteed throw? I think it would be neat to try out

 

[Wind Owl]

What's wrong with being able to escape a grab? A grab shouldn't be a guaranteed throw. If you get greedy with the grab attacks and your opponent escapes why shouldn't they be able to punish you?

Have you gotten out of a grab in Brawl lately? I'm not sure where you're getting this notion that grab releases are punishable. Most are neutral, but some are even better for the attacker than a throw.

 

[Starscream]

Have you gotten out of a grab in Brawl lately? I'm not sure where you're getting this notion that grab releases are punishable. Most are neutral, but some are even better for the attacker than a throw.

The abusable ones aren't really punishable... without the code. With this code they are, or so I'm gathering, I dunno I haven't tried it or played Brawl in over a week.

GameSystem explained it pretty well in the thread dedicated to the new code.

Note: Some of you may think that the person escaping the grab has too much freedom to punish while the person who grabbed is still in the grab release lag frames. Think about it this way. The grabber's grab release frames only last a little bit, so it is almost impossible to get smash attacked. In addition, the person who escaped DESERVES to punish the grabber. If you grab someone, and you get too greedy with pummeling and don't throw, it is completely your fault. The person who escaped the grab worked to escape by rotating that control stick so they deserve it.

I see nothing wrong with this logic.

 

[Wind Owl]

... Wait, what code? Did I miss something?

 

[Starscream]

Heh, you sure did.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=209277

 

[Wind Owl]

lol, wow. Sure was out of the loop on this one.

In that case, I don't see a reason for the automatic Fthrow code. I like this one much better.