Brawl Character Match-Up chart

[Shy Guy 86]

MK with the Down B AT..... >>Everyone

DK << Falco its true >.<

 

[Smashbros_7]

Ness vs Shiek. I need help on that.

 

[Brinzy]

I'll make an in-depth post on it later, but all I can say now is that, based off of my own personal experience, Sheik is definitely no more difficult than Zelda for Ness, and if anything, Sheik is EASIER than Zelda is, so I'm going for neutral, but I'll have to debate that point later today, as I don't have the time right now.

 

[PhantomBrawler]

forward plays falco in brawl, and he has the cg down better than anyone i've seen

i missed sethlon last time i was in texas, but fogo saw

Sethlon is the master of the chaingrab. Let me know when you play him.

falco is his secondary, and he's pro, far more pro than most of the falcos out there, including you, don't argue it, he's forward.

and i'll try it next time i see seth and make a vid for you.

You guys think I've never heard of forward or something. I'm aware that forward is pro, and i never made claims that I was better. I dont even think i made claims saying i was good did I? So please, don't flame me like i did.

My point was that Forward's most used character is not Falco, and Sethlon's is. So then naturally, Sethlon would be better.

MK with the Down B AT..... >>Everyone

DK << Falco its true >.<

MK's DCAT(Dimensional Cape Adv Tech) is not only going to be banned as stalling, but is pretty much worthless against all aerial characters including falco. To avoid it, all you have to do is stay in the air.......

 

[TwinkleToes]

MK with the Down B AT..... >>Everyone

How so?
Not only can aerial characters stay completely safe from it and easily counter-attack it, but any character that's faster than MK can easily avoid it and grab him when he releases it. As a stall move it's nonpareil, but stalling alone doesn't win games.

 

[Blistering Speed]

How so?
Not only can aerial characters stay completely safe from it and easily counter-attack it, but any character that's faster than MK can easily avoid it and grab him when he releases it. As a stall move it's nonpareil, but stalling alone doesn't win games.

It does if the MK gets a percent on you. Granted that's not stalling alone but it doesn't get any closer to it.

 

[gantrain05]

How so?
Not only can aerial characters stay completely safe from it and easily counter-attack it, but any character that's faster than MK can easily avoid it and grab him when he releases it. As a stall move it's nonpareil, but stalling alone doesn't win games.

lol, what character faster than MK, and secondly, u can actually release MK's downB in the air, so arial isn't safe either, i'm willing to bet you have never played anyone that has become good with that tech.

 

[keeper]

Forward uses Snake.

Those Falco videos are kinda old.

 

[ConnorTheKid]

eat a d¡ck

 

[Fogo]

You guys think I've never heard of forward or something. I'm aware that forward is pro, and i never made claims that I was better. I dont even think i made claims saying i was good did I? So please, don't flame me like i did.

My point was that Forward's most used character is not Falco, and Sethlon's is. So then naturally, Sethlon would be better.

my point is that you act like just because forward mains snake that his falco wouldnt be top notch or that escaping his chain grab isn't respectable.

his falco is one the best in the nation and escaping his grab is just as good as escaping sethlon's, so don't act like that's not a feat.

I'm not flaming you for claims on your own skill, but lack of respect for someone who obviously knows more than most of us.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I'll make an in-depth post on it later, but all I can say now is that, based off of my own personal experience, Sheik is definitely no more difficult than Zelda for Ness, and if anything, Sheik is EASIER than Zelda is, so I'm going for neutral, but I'll have to debate that point later today, as I don't have the time right now.

from the other end of the matchup... I completely agree. Shiek just has SOOO much more trouble with ness's prioity and disjointed hitboxes and has no counter for his projectile or aerial game... though sheik does edguard/gimp and approach better than Zelda does. Lucas, however, is a different story... Shiek punishes his lag a hell of a lot more

eat a d¡ck

what useful posts.

 

[ConnorTheKid]

eat a another d¡ck

 

[ShadowLink84]

*places connor on ignore*
Moving on...


DDD vs Sonic.

Discuss?

 

[Tenki]

lol, what character faster than MK, and secondly, u can actually release MK's downB in the air, so arial isn't safe either, i'm willing to bet you have never played anyone that has become good with that tech.

That move is overhyped. "OMG INVISIBILITY FOREVUR!?!?!?!".

It's not exactly teleportation, but he's basically moving at his run speed... + ending lag.
There's a list of movement speed somewhere in here, but there are a few that can outrun MK, but it's not like they're gonna be next to him when he does it anyway, at least, not for the most part.

gantrain, have you messed around with the technique at all?

If so, you can easily see that his down-B can only attack backwards, and that means, running toward the direction that MK was facing means he has to chase the guy, and that makes it exploitable, especially around edges. If you haven't noticed, you're basically extending the "ending" part of his dimensional cape. Most of the time, you'll get a pathetic less-than-shorthop height by 'jumping' with it, and even if you do it perfectly, the highest it can go is the height between the main platform and the side platforms on Battlefield.

To actually float upwards (chasing someone) and try to do a different move (eg, tornado) won't work- you'll have to float down before you can do anything else. You can do other attacks out of the down-B if you keep it grounded, but there's still ending lag for someone to react to.

DDD vs Sonic.

Discuss?

Eh, before anything starts on this, just keep in mind Dedede has a sucking move that can interfere with recoveries or approaches. It's very underused, but I've had my share of fighting people who can read my moves and causing great trouble with it.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

falco >> dk online, not in person, big difference

dk edge guards falco, not the other way around. why? because dk's upb is disjointed enough that it will beat out all your air moves that go into its range (everything but uair), to the point where most of thefalcos i've played have given up on edge guarding because unless you get a falling dair dead on (and even then it will knock sideways, not spike) the upb will deal about 20%, 38 if he lands it right and combos it into dsmash (perfect landed upb to dsmash actually does combo) high risk little reward.

meanwhile, dk's dair and fair will hit you out of your side b if he just sticks it out in the way (stays out long enough to work), and every one of dks aerials will beat out falcos upb.

and if you don't gimp, wanna guess how high you have to get dk up to just to ko him with something other than a sweetspotted fsmash? heres a hint, its over twice what dk needs to ko with 5 different moves

 

[PhantomBrawler]

falco >> dk online, not in person, big difference

dk edge guards falco, not the other way around. why? because dk's upb is disjointed enough that it will beat out all your air moves that go into its range (everything but uair), to the point where most of thefalcos i've played have given up on edge guarding because unless you get a falling dair dead on (and even then it will knock sideways, not spike) the upb will deal about 20%, 38 if he lands it right and combos it into dsmash (perfect landed upb to dsmash actually does combo) high risk little reward.

meanwhile, dk's dair and fair will hit you out of your side b if he just sticks it out in the way (stays out long enough to work), and every one of dks aerials will beat out falcos upb.

and if you don't gimp, wanna guess how high you have to get dk up to just to ko him with something other than a sweetspotted fsmash? heres a hint, its over twice what dk needs to ko with 5 different moves

*sigh* All you need is dthrow on the edge and DK is done.....just one, between like 0 and 80 damage....follow it with a spike and DK is no more....It doesnt even matter if its chainned into another grab or not. Just camp DK until he is forced to approach, grab+dthrow+reverse boost grab+dthrow+dair=death for DK everytime.

As for the chaingrab issue here is a quote from our friend Sethlon:

I highly doubt falco would be able to shine out of it, since it doesn't activate on frame 1 anymore.

Tested DK, he CANNOT upB out.

Timing the chaingrab against marth is reeaally hard We might be better off just baiting his upB and then just punishing.

I tried the walking chaingrab against a jiggs, and i was able to get 3 total grabs at 0% (first throw, running regrab, walking regrab). I don't think a fourth is possible. Could use more testing.

I still haven't gotten any %s though, lol.

Edit: Oh, and I think my matches against 3000's sonic didn't actually get recorded after all

Falco's bread is safe in this match-up.

 

[ChewyChase]

Hey Sonic vs. Snake...

Maybe reconsider it? Because it's either a toss-up or it favors Snake depending on playstyle.

And what the hell happened to CF? Is it REALLY that bad?! I don't play or know any falcon players...
Looks like he drew the shortest straw lol

EDIT: DDD and Sonic ... ... I think that's a fair chance for both, it depends on how the Sonic plays really. Because DD is just gonna try to chain grab sonic if he can since sonic is a sucker for that... but if you're moving and comboing well DDD is also a sucker for Sonic's combos, so it depends on who gets what strike.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Snake beats Sonic 7:3. Snake is wierdly under rated by people who want there main to counter him. People constantly say 'I have a decent aerial game and a spike, I can jugglez him 4eva and t3hn spi3k his recoverai!!111'.
No....just no. You people need to play professional Snakes, it doesn't work like that.

 

[Browny]

eh whats the point in arguing sonics match ups anymore. people still believe all you have to do is hold A and that shuts down every single approach option sonic has, because after all, spin dash is his only attack which doesnt have 2 seconds of after-lag apparently

 

[IvanEva]

Snake beats Sonic 7:3. Snake is wierdly under rated by people who want there main to counter him. People constantly say 'I have a decent aerial game and a spike, I can jugglez him 4eva and t3hn spi3k his recoverai!!111'.
No....just no. You people need to play professional Snakes, it doesn't work like that.

Definitely. This being summer and all that, I've been dreadfully lazy (rather, going out a lot) and thus haven't touched the chart too much. Snake's match-ups are going to look a lot more like Game and Watches (lots of large advantages) soon. Same with Metaknight. The chart doesn't reflect how awesome they are right now. My bad.

 

[Shy Guy 86]

The one that has the most large advantages is G&W with 10 large matchups, followed by Falco with 7 large matchups.

 

[adumbrodeus]

That move is overhyped. "OMG INVISIBILITY FOREVUR!?!?!?!".

Lol, you obviously don't understand the move at all.

It's not exactly teleportation, but he's basically moving at his run speed... + ending lag.
There's a list of movement speed somewhere in here, but there are a few that can outrun MK, but it's not like they're gonna be next to him when he does it anyway, at least, not for the most part.

No it's not, the dimensional cape glitch is QUITE a bit faster then MK's run speed.

gantrain, have you messed around with the technique at all?

Doesn't matter, I've messed around with it as an approach, and it's impossibly fast and results in an insumermountable guessing game.

If so, you can easily see that his down-B can only attack backwards, and that means, running toward the direction that MK was facing means he has to chase the guy, and that makes it exploitable, especially around edges. If you haven't noticed, you're basically extending the "ending" part of his dimensional cape. Most of the time, you'll get a pathetic less-than-shorthop height by 'jumping' with it, and even if you do it perfectly, the highest it can go is the height between the main platform and the side platforms on Battlefield.

The hitbox is around MK, as well as MK himself. Ledge techs...he can beat you there and ledge cancel, (and deal damage in the process).

As for jumping with it... that range is MORE then enough.

To actually float upwards (chasing someone) and try to do a different move (eg, tornado) won't work- you'll have to float down before you can do anything else. You can do other attacks out of the down-B if you keep it grounded, but there's still ending lag for someone to react to.

Problem is, being above MK is a horrible position to be in strategically speaking. So what if MK can't attack you up there, he's forced you into the perfect position for his other moves.

 

[ROOOOY!]

eh whats the point in arguing sonics match ups anymore. people still believe all you have to do is hold A and that shuts down every single approach option sonic has, because after all, spin dash is his only attack which doesnt have 2 seconds of after-lag apparently

Agreed.
Sonic vs Snake is in Snake's favour, but not exactly by a landslide. Snake can't really be campy in this matchup, because Sonic's side B goes through nikita missiles, and you can just glide toss the grenades back at him or just run away if he's already 'cooked' them. Snakes main advantage in this match up is that he has a retadedly overpowered ground game. Tilts are a problem, like they are for everybody, and Snake just jabbing repeatedly kinda only gives you the option of dropping a spring on him or using >B's invincibility frames.
You can get him out of his cypher with Nair and Bair, and those two aren't that hard to land.
I hate this match up ¬_¬ simply because it's more or less all I get to play, and it's boring.

 

[SmashBrother2008]

Hey Sonic vs. Snake...

Maybe reconsider it? Because it's either a toss-up or it favors Snake depending on playstyle.

And what the hell happened to CF? Is it REALLY that bad?! I don't play or know any falcon players...
Looks like he drew the shortest straw lol

EDIT: DDD and Sonic ... ... I think that's a fair chance for both, it depends on how the Sonic plays really. Because DD is just gonna try to chain grab sonic if he can since sonic is a sucker for that... but if you're moving and comboing well DDD is also a sucker for Sonic's combos, so it depends on who gets what strike.

I still consider him good.

 

[Tenki]

No it's not, the dimensional cape glitch is QUITE a bit faster then MK's run speed.
Have you two controllers, and someone else to try it with? If so, please, try again. You either feel the illusion of speed because of invisibility or underestimate MK's run speed, which is indeed pretty fast.

The hitbox is around MK, as well as MK himself. Ledge techs...he can beat you there and ledge cancel, (and deal damage in the process).
Aye, it surrounds his body, but this means that you have to actually reappear inside the character you're fighting. The side that he faces when he attacks again has a much lengthier hitbox, and is considerably 'more dangerous' than his back. I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say with ledge techs and ledge cancelling this move, unless you mean ledgehogging with it, which is just stupid and risky IMO.


Problem is, being above MK is a horrible position to be in strategically speaking. So what if MK can't attack you up there, he's forced you into the perfect position for his other moves.
Is it really? What can he do? U-air, N-air? up-B? It's a good thing there's ending lag to this move signalling a possible attack if he's under me.

Agreed.
Sonic vs Snake is in Snake's favour, but not exactly by a landslide. Snake can't really be campy in this matchup, because Sonic's side B goes through nikita missiles, and you can just glide toss the grenades back at him or just run away if he's already 'cooked' them. Snakes main advantage in this match up is that he has a retadedly overpowered ground game. Tilts are a problem, like they are for everybody, and Snake just jabbing repeatedly kinda only gives you the option of dropping a spring on him or using >B's invincibility frames.
You can get him out of his cypher with Nair and Bair, and those two aren't that hard to land.
I hate this match up ¬_¬ simply because it's more or less all I get to play, and it's boring.

I rarely see Nikitas being used, but you're overstating Side-B's invincibility frames. The Snakes you've fought probably haven't cancelled Nikitas as you're going through them.

Plus, powershielding tilts always helps.

Strategic Snakes are good, but those that have beaten me were better players overall. Crappy Snakes are crappy.

I mean really, keep using those stupid aerials of yours at wrong heights and forcing yourself in landing lag and see how much fun it is to be grabbed/chased by Sonic =.='

eh whats the point in arguing sonics match ups anymore. people still believe all you have to do is hold A and that shuts down every single approach option sonic has, because after all, spin dash is his only attack which doesnt have 2 seconds of after-lag apparently

This is too true lol.

 

[gantrain05]

ok well, im goin to a tourney on the 25th, and apparently the guy who always wins plays snake, what do u guys think of the matchups of Toon Link, Peach, or Lucas vs snake? I know i've played a few good snakes before and have done very well with peach.

 

[adumbrodeus]

No it's not, the dimensional cape glitch is QUITE a bit faster then MK's run speed.
Have you two controllers, and someone else to try it with? If so, please, try again. You either feel the illusion of speed because of invisibility or underestimate MK's run speed, which is indeed pretty fast.

I think you're not Diing to the side enough. You do it diagnally with both sticks it's faster.

Aye, it surrounds his body, but this means that you have to actually reappear inside the character you're fighting. The side that he faces when he attacks again has a much lengthier hitbox, and is considerably 'more dangerous' than his back. I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say with ledge techs and ledge cancelling this move, unless you mean ledgehogging with it, which is just stupid and risky IMO.

Not really, it goes out past MK on both sides. Overall, given a bit of practice, it's easy to hit with it. The hardest par is reliably using the tech.

It's risky, if you haven't practiced it. The tech ledge-cancels reliably given a little bit of practice.

Is it really? What can he do? U-air, N-air? up-B? It's a good thing there's ending lag to this move signalling a possible attack if he's under me.

You're entirely missing the point. In the few stages where this is possible, this position puts MK at an IMMENSE advantage. Just about nothing outprioritizes him from above (the moves that do are completely unsafe, all 2 of them). Sure, he's not approaching invisibly and invincibly, and you can tell when he's approaching, but you're basically forced to fight only against what was MK's strongest attribute before this discover, his incredible air game.

Your ground game? Useless. Projectile spamming? Doesn't do anything.


The fact is, pragmatically speaking, usage of this technique means that you have to put yourself into one of two horrible positions, the completely unsafe ledge, or the second-worst character-specific position against MK (was the worst before this tech was discovered), above him.

 

[NasKe]

I say: Kirby > Snake kirby's dair cancels snake's up smash and is bair has way more priority than any of snake's arieals making it super easy for kirby to edgeguard snake

 

[Kiwikomix]

I say: Kirby > Snake kirby's dair cancels snake's up smash and is bair has way more priority than any of snake's arieals making it super easy for kirby to edgeguard snake

That might be useful if Kirby could even approach Snake... which he can't. Snake > Kirby, even the supposedly biased Kirby boards agree on that.

 

[Dpete]

I say: Kirby > Snake kirby's dair cancels snake's up smash and is bair has way more priority than any of snake's arieals making it super easy for kirby to edgeguard snake

I say: You're wrong. Snake is easily one of Kirby's worst matchups, if not the worst. A better argument would be whether its a large disadvantage or not.

Edit: Kiwi beat me to the punch

 

[Shök]

Marth=R.O.B.


BEEEEAAAAMMMMM!!!


and that's it.

except recovery and wieght.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

*Notices Zelda vs. ness is still listed as advantage ness*

*glares*

<_<

And that Zelda and Shiek aren't listed as ****** fox....

*10 characters*

 

[Morrigan]

*10 characters*

That's not the only outdated thing.

Olimar still has the advantage over Peach.

 

[Kiwikomix]

That's not the only outdated thing either.
Yoshi is still at a disadvantage to every character...

 

[Reasons]

How is Bowser neutral with Metaknight? Just wondering.

 

[Swordplay]

On the topic of zelda....I really do think her Dins is overatted. It may have a large hitbox and good control but priority isn't that good.

As a link player I almost never hit by Din's fire......My Nair outpriortizes it so I never even get hit.

I thought that match would be neutral because of that but I can understand why you would make it Adv zelda (even though I disagree)

BUT HOW can you say ness vs zelda.....Just because zelda's don't use Din's alot on me because I use Links Nair doesn't mean she can't do ****.

Same situation with ness only I think ness is even a worse character than link. (my opinion)

 

[itsthebigfoot]

*sigh* All you need is dthrow on the edge and DK is done.....just one, between like 0 and 80 damage....follow it with a spike and DK is no more....It doesnt even matter if its chainned into another grab or not. Just camp DK until he is forced to approach, grab+dthrow+reverse boost grab+dthrow+dair=death for DK everytime.

ugh, i'm going to have to make a video

 

[PhantomBrawler]

ugh, i'm going to have to make a video

A video is not needed, Sethlon has clearly stated that DK cannot Up B out of the chaingrab. Sethlon knows the chaingrab, and he knows it well.If DK does Up B out,then its the falcos fault. And since we are talking the characters metagame when we are speaking of match-ups, then that would conclude that DK cannot DI and Up B out of the CG thus, keeping the match-up 80-20 falco....

Other things to keep in mind about the match-up...even without the cg, falco still wins this match-up because DK can not Ftilt swat falcos projectile so he can be camped. Also DK can be stage juggled with falcos dair, if you dont know what i mean i cant really think of anyhting else to explain it better...just multiple dairs sweetspotted leaving DK immobile.....im sorry, there is just too much in falco's arsenal to deny him the adv in this one.

 

[Brinzy]

Yeah, to finalize Ness vs. Zelda: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=180723



We have settled on Neutral.

 

[DanGR]

Olimar<Sheik. Nair>jab is invincible to every counter option Olimar has. It's not possible to win against this combo when it's spaced well. End of discussion.