Brawl Character Match-Up chart

[PK Hexagon]

Also, while Snake isn't completely broken, he's still definitly the best (or possibly second best behind Metaknight) character in the game with no solid counters.

Falco? Olimar? ROB?

Seriously.

 

[Tenki]

*oh great, here comes somebody else with an argument*...

Not really, I would like to defend Falcon's matchup with Ike. I would point out that they should be neutral. Many of Ikes attacks initiate slowly enough for Falcon to actually get his sluggish hits in. Proper use of timing on the Falcon Kick and Raptor boost seems to be an effective way to counter a smash-happy Ike. You may not agree but whenever I play against an Ike as CF, it feels far less challenging than many of his other matchups. Ike is a character that CF can actually punish.

What? Smash-happy Ike? That doesn't reflect Ike's 'metagame' at all. It's about as bad as a Falcon-Punch-spamming Falcon.

Sorry to make it a matter of semantics, but what is "many of Ike's attacks"?

Each character has 3 tilts, 3 smashes, 5 aerials, jabs, grab, and 4 specials.

Ike players mains generally use: N-air, F-air, Jab for the majority of their actual attack usage, and the rest fall into situational use. Many of Ike's other moves, save for B-air, are slow, but they sure aren't used too often.

Good Ike players don't spam moves that leave them vulnerable unless they're confident in their ability to bait, punish, or defend against approaches made in their seeming lag time.

 

[Kiwikomix]

The thing about Ike is that most of his speedy attacks, the ones Tenki mentioned, are used almost constantly to make up for the lag on every other attack. However, it does seem like Falcon can at least punish. That's what a lot of fast characters, both on the ground or in the air, have on Ike.

 

[-__-]

Maybe some details? You have to argue the matchup. Can't just expect to get it changed because you think it's different.

Metaknight vs Dedede (Metaknight ***** people period off the ledge and he can this nameless thing where he grabs and hits, both players fall off the stage, and he can up b for a stage spike.)

Kirby vs Dedede (Kirbys grabs **** the Sh^t outta dedede. hisFsmash can kill at 110% undeteriorated)

Both characters are harder to hit with an up Tilt. they can out air game dedede. and theyve been countering dedede since kirby's adventure. why else do you think dedede quit life and wasnt apart of crystal shards.

Dedede's Recovery is bad that vs. metaknight he can get Reversed UpB'd and die at 100% or get daird to death
vs. Kirby if he lands he gets hammerd if he goes for edge he gets spiked if he trys to suicide he gets footstoold into spike if he isnt dead alrdy.

 

[PhantomBrawler]

just curious....why is peach=falco? i know its a recent change, i just want to hear the reasoning behind it...not saying its wrong or right, just wondering

 

[Kasai]

I noticed a change that wasn't listed. It went from Lucario = MK to Lucario < MK....what's the reasoning behind this? Lucario outranges, out prioritizes and when he gets to a high %, in the 70s, (which he will because MK has trouble killing), he kills earlier. If anything I think it should be the other way around but even in the very least. Also I don't really see any argument that could have caused it to be changed.

 

[Brinzy]

Lucario outranges Metaknight? I never knew that... but it certainly does not seem that way to me, looking from the outside in.

 

[Kasai]

The majority of the moves used by Lucario in actual battle, (Fsmash, ftilt, usmash (vertically), bair, fair maybe (I would have to check it out), Aura sphere (duh)) out range or at least out prioritize Metaknight. In addition, most of these moves have somewhat lingering hit boxes so they can also be used somewhat as walls.

Also, Lucario obviously forces MK to approach (although this isn't much of a problem due to MK's good approach game). He is able to kill MK earlier simply because of the trouble MK has killing. Lucario isn't chained by aerials very well due to his floaty-ness and he is able to chain them easily.

 

[Browny]

Also I don't really see any argument that could have caused it to be changed.

Such is the case for approxiamtely 90% of the matchups listed. there hasnt been any meaningful discussion, let alone objective analysis to any recent match up changes for a long time now

and no point arguing anyone = MK anymore, everything will just result in 'LOL infinite cape > [character]'

 

[gantrain05]

just curious....why is peach=falco? i know its a recent change, i just want to hear the reasoning behind it...not saying its wrong or right, just wondering

well, im not exactly sure the reasoning of this, but i play peach, and i've been to a couple tourneys and one guy there plays a really badass falco, and one thing that i've noticed about the matchup is that peach is actually immune to falco's chaingrab, also, its very easy to turnip gimp falcos recovery. but i dont really known for sure, i know that in the air its about an even matchup, falco has alot quicker attacks, but peach has priority, and they both have a really good ground game.

 

[IvanEva]

The only thing I can think of is weight.
A defensive Bowser maybe close enough to neutral, but an offensive Bowser against a Metaknight is horribly one-sided in MK's favour.

Also, Bowser = Sonic makes me ;_;. One of Sonic's easier match ups.

Then, Sonic mains get by in large ignored because of the whole 'no priority no kill moves bawwww', so there's no point in arguing. :\

I guess it's a matter of weight, Bowser's forward tilt and his down b being a very good counter/counterattack to a lot of Metaknight approaches/attacks.

Yeah, I'll have to look into that match-up again. It's from a while back.

I don't really see Sonic having too much trouble killing. His back air edgeguarding is a pain against anybody. When I play as/against Sonic I don't really notice his lack of priority all that much. He shouldn't be trying to match blows, but to weave his way in and ninja in some attacks. There's always a point in arguing, otherwise the terrorists win.

... So... after all this, you leave it at that? Tell me, why must you yourself play this match when Ness mains and Zelda mains go for Neutral? Have you even seen the threads that discussed this match?

The thread that discussed that match-up was pretty heated with plenty of people supporting BOTH sides. I can see it being even but at the same time I'm still slightly inclined to believe that Ness' superior (i.e slightly easier to hit with) air game tilts it SLIGHTLY in his favor. Sadly, let's face it, it's not a match-up that occurs very often at tournaments so it's not a very easy thing to judge.

In certain match-ups he has to be. But he's forced to approach in this one. You don't need to be a projectile user to camp, you just can't force an approach.

Yes you do. If you're just standing there not doing anything you're not camping, you're just uselessly standing there. Camping = forcing an approach. As well, ROB's spot dodge to down smash beats the world out of Old Manondorf. It's like how Samus can grapple beam Ganondorf to death. It takes forever but it's very safe and there isn't much he can do about it.

just curious....why is peach=falco? i know its a recent change, i just want to hear the reasoning behind it...not saying its wrong or right, just wondering

I think it was because she has a pretty easy time comboing him.

MK has trouble killing

No, he most certainly does not. Metaknight's up-b owns the world. It's fast enough to be done on Lucario after just about any move Lucario uses. Lucario's floatiness just makes him a better Metaknight up-b target.

 

[3GOD]

I was just playing around with a program to calculate a "tier list" from the match-up chart. I noticed a couple of discrepancies. Specifically, a few match-ups are listed differently depending on which side of the diagonal line you look.

Ivysaur vs Mr. Game & Watch
King Dedede vs Yoshi
Wolf vs King Dedede

I'm pretty sure these are the only three problems I saw as far as inconsistencies with the chart.

As for the results of my test...I think that there are still A LOT of wrong listings in the chart. King Dedede came out to be 22nd on the resulting tier list, but he is the 3rd best based on the tournament results. I'm not saying that the results should be 100% in line with tournament results, but they should definitely reflect reality better than they currently do.

 

[Adapt]

I was just playing around with a program to calculate a "tier list" from the match-up chart. I noticed a couple of discrepancies. Specifically, a few match-ups are listed differently depending on which side of the diagonal line you look.

Ivysaur vs Mr. Game & Watch
King Dedede vs Yoshi
Wolf vs King Dedede

I'm pretty sure these are the only three problems I saw as far as inconsistencies with the chart.

As for the results of my test...I think that there are still A LOT of wrong listings in the chart. King Dedede came out to be 22nd on the resulting tier list, but he is the 3rd best based on the tournament results. I'm not saying that the results should be 100% in line with tournament results, but they should definitely reflect reality better than they currently do.

This goes back to my comment that DDD's matchups need heavy revision. I am not an expert on the subject, but I refuse to believe his matchups are that bad.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Yes you do. If you're just standing there not doing anything you're not camping, you're just uselessly standing there. Camping = forcing an approach. As well, ROB's spot dodge to down smash beats the world out of Old Manondorf. It's like how Samus can grapple beam Ganondorf to death. It takes forever but it's very safe and there isn't much he can do about it.

You seem unclear on the definition of camping...

Camping is merely staying in a location.

It's generally a lot more effective if you have a projectile to spam while camping, but that doesn't define it.

It's just picking a spot and camping out.


Regardless, as You might've noticed, I was arguing in opposition to Gannondorf=ROB

 

[cj.Shark]

Pika> snake. i know you bumped it back to = because hes light but seriously Pika> snake.
and if you guys dont know what im talking about even the weekly character discussion on snake cleary states Pika > snake. Pika can outcamp snake and snakes apporaches suck.

 

[Clai]

Yes you do. If you're just standing there not doing anything you're not camping, you're just uselessly standing there. Camping = forcing an approach. As well, ROB's spot dodge to down smash beats the world out of Old Manondorf. It's like how Samus can grapple beam Ganondorf to death. It takes forever but it's very safe and there isn't much he can do about it.

Except that once Ganon gets in ROB's face, which you are assuming he will be considering that you're assuming that ROB is spot-dodging, he can just spot-dodge the down smash and grab ROB and open him up to more hits. At least Samus is a world away when using those grapple beams and doesn't have to worry about what happens when Ganon dodges the grapple. Besides, d-smash, considering how many times it's going to be used, isn't going to kill Ganondorf any time soon.

I never once said that the matchup is going to be easy for Ganon. No matchup is easy for Ganon. I'm just saying that ROB doesn't have it any bit easier. As long as both combatants are smart, at least.

 

[Smashbros_7]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=4965079#post4965079

Ness topic about his matchups against Squirtle (should be neutral) Sonic (advantage for Ness) e.c.t

 

[Smashbros_7]

Raphael, Stop arguing about Ness vs Zelda. Start arguing about OTHER MATCHUPS!!!

(Ness should be neutral to Sheik)

 

[Morrigan]

Don't double post.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Raphael, Stop arguing about Ness vs Zelda. Start arguing about OTHER MATCHUPS!!!

(Ness should be neutral to Sheik)

if he feels strongly about that match-up there is no reason he should stop arguing it unless he was clearly wrong and most people thought he was wrong.

 

[LuigiKing]

Jeez this matchup chart is painfully outdated. Or its just garbage. Sorry to sound like a jerk, but there is nothing this can be useful for when its so off =/

 

[ROOOOY!]

Sonic vs Bowser = Small advantage to Sonic.

Bowser has to be defensive in this match-up, which he's good at to a certain extent, though where there's cooldown lag on his defensive moves OOS Sonic with his speed can really capitalize and build up pressure. This is particularly true to Bowser's Dsmash OOS, which has a lot of cooldown lag and is fairly predictable. With a spindash cancel (sheilding within the first few frames of the spinning) Sonic cancels straight out of it and so if a Bowser does decide to predict a spindash and Dsmashes Sonic can just run up to him in Bowser's 'helpless' frames and punish. Spinshots are effective too, shooting behind a Bowser for a Bair often catches them offguard. This part is basically mind****ery, pressing Bowser into making mistakes to capitalize on, which is quite easy because Bowser's too slow (lol)
Bowser's fairly easy to gimp offstage too, with a predictable recovery and being a big target, a Bair should suffice. Bowser's size really works to Sonic's advantage too, as he's rather easy to pull off a ASC combo on (Aerial Spin Charge) and just easy to torment with niggly aerials like Fair.
The match isn't one sided though. Bowser's neutral B kinda screws up the spindash/charge approach, which is why you've got to mix up approaches with spinshots and that, either way it's kinda annoying. There's of course the priority issues, which ring true to practically every Sonic match up. Sonic WILL get outprioritized by Bowser's faster attacks, so watch for that. Finally, having a predictable Sonic will cost you. So will missing or whiffing attacks. A non-lagless Dair will cost you a fair bit.

Anyway I'm not gonna write anymore.

Main points :
Sonic combos all over Bowser.
Sonic handles Bowser offstage due to one-dimensional recovery (watch out for Bowserside's though >_<)
Bowser's defensive options are limited and punishable.

Sound about right?

 

[Brinzy]

The thread that discussed that match-up was pretty heated with plenty of people supporting BOTH sides. I can see it being even but at the same time I'm still slightly inclined to believe that Ness' superior (i.e slightly easier to hit with) air game tilts it SLIGHTLY in his favor. Sadly, let's face it, it's not a match-up that occurs very often at tournaments so it's not a very easy thing to judge.

Have you also considered that Zelda has a superior ground game, better range, more killing moves, more disjointed hitboxes, and better priority? I'm not looking to debate this all over again, but I don't understand why having an "easier game to hit with" tilts it in his advantage, especially considering if both players are supposed to be at the top of their game, Zelda should be able to land her aerials just fine. I understand why you're hesitant on changing it, but Ness's advantages don't cover up for his weaknesses... or rather, his not-so-strong areas happen to be Zelda's stronger points.

Raphael, Stop arguing about Ness vs Zelda. Start arguing about OTHER MATCHUPS!!!

(Ness should be neutral to Sheik)

Don't tell me what to do and what not to do.

 

[Kasai]

No, he most certainly does not. Metaknight's up-b owns the world. It's fast enough to be done on Lucario after just about any move Lucario uses. Lucario's floatiness just makes him a better Metaknight up-b target.

Apparently you've never seen a decent Lucario. Firstly, even with that move, Lucario will easily be able to get to a high enough percent to be able to kill earlier than MK. Secondly, the move is very easy to see coming, even though it comes out quick. In the air, when recovering, it's not hard to either A) air dodge or B) use Lucario's reverse counter and simply use MK's attack to help him go closer to the stage.


So yeah, killing power isn't in favor of MK which brings me back to the point where Lucario not only kills earlier but also out prioritizes/outranges/outsurvives MK. The match isn't in MK's favor.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Except that once Ganon gets in ROB's face, which you are assuming he will be considering that you're assuming that ROB is spot-dodging, he can just spot-dodge the down smash and grab ROB and open him up to more hits. At least Samus is a world away when using those grapple beams and doesn't have to worry about what happens when Ganon dodges the grapple. Besides, d-smash, considering how many times it's going to be used, isn't going to kill Ganondorf any time soon.

I never once said that the matchup is going to be easy for Ganon. No matchup is easy for Ganon. I'm just saying that ROB doesn't have it any bit easier. As long as both combatants are smart, at least.

Except ROB can go for another Dsmash which is faster than EVERYTHING that Ganondorf has.
Let alone the fact ROB can camp him to death.

 

[Browny]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=4965079#post4965079

Ness topic about his matchups against Squirtle (should be neutral) Sonic (advantage for Ness) e.c.t

i main them both an i honestly dont see what ness has over sonic. landing a KO move on sonic is extremely difficult, and grabbing him is even more so. that, and spring completely owns ness' recovery. once you use the double jump theres pretty much no chance of getting back. Ness really excels against the character he has no trouble landing his ko moves (bthrow, bair, uair) against, and sonic really is just too fast to get hit by them on a regular basis, while being able to punish a lot of ness' laggy smashes + specials with an fsmash of his own.

 

[El Sabroso]

Pika> snake. i know you bumped it back to = because hes light but seriously Pika> snake.
and if you guys dont know what im talking about even the weekly character discussion on snake cleary states Pika > snake. Pika can outcamp snake and snakes apporaches suck.

i agree with him, pika > snake... pikachu can chain grab him, and yes is true that snake can escape with grenade drop but depends on the contrroler port who takes the damage, minor port takes the nade damage and a pika = snake can be if only snake is playing in a mayor port than pika's...

the posibility of a snake = pika is only by port advantage, that's why i consider pika > snake...

 

[cj.Shark]

and fullhop thunder jolts make it hard for snake to hit Pika, yet easy for pika to hit snake with his projectile. add that into account the fact that thunder just totally owns snakes recovery and that chaingrabs can go up to 50%. unfair :O

 

[IvanEva]

I noticed a couple of discrepancies.

Thanks for bringing them to light. They're fixed now.

Zelda should be able to land her aerials just fine.

Ness is far nimbler in the air than Zelda. He'll land several back airs long before she'll even land a forward or back air of her own.

Secondly, the move is very easy to see coming, even though it comes out quick.

Metaknight's up-b is one of the hardest moves to see coming, even as a "predictable" edgeguard.

i main them both an i honestly dont see what ness has over sonic.

Neither do I which is why it's not being changed.

To the people stating the obvious that Dedede is underrepresented: please state which Dedede match-up you disagree with. Simply stating that it's off does nothing.

To the Pika > Snake supporters: 50% to Snake (in that match-up) is the same as Pikachu being at 0%. He laughs it off. As well, what are a bunch of easily tiltable thunderjolts going to do to Snake? Thunder is an issue but for Pika to kill Snake he'll have to get within Snake's tilt's ranges, where he'll be beaten out. I don't think I can change it to a Pikachu advantage until I hear of some Pikachus taking down Snakes at tournaments.

 

[Shy Guy 86]

King Dedede's Matchups look outdated

Toon Link's too.

R.O.B. should have a big advantage vs. Ganondorf.

 

[Kiwikomix]

To the people stating the obvious that Dedede is underrepresented: please state which Dedede match-up you disagree with. Simply stating that it's off does nothing.

King Dedede's Matchups look outdated

Golly, I love the internet.

 

[PK Hexagon]

...Lucario outranges, out prioritizes ...

Eh. Are you sure about that? MK outranges Marth.

 

[Browny]

only on the dtilt?

im sure he just means he outranges his with a few moves, like fsmash, dair and uair. Oh, and of course aura sphere.

 

[Mario_ 101]

Mario has an advantage against ROB. Even their own boards admit it. http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=169415&page=5

 

[gantrain05]

i main them both an i honestly dont see what ness has over sonic. landing a KO move on sonic is extremely difficult, and grabbing him is even more so. that, and spring completely owns ness' recovery. once you use the double jump theres pretty much no chance of getting back. Ness really excels against the character he has no trouble landing his ko moves (bthrow, bair, uair) against, and sonic really is just too fast to get hit by them on a regular basis, while being able to punish a lot of ness' laggy smashes + specials with an fsmash of his own.

i don't find it hard to land kill moves on sonic, if u don't suck with your grabs you'll be fine, and yoyos can kill sonic at decent percentages even, but i will agree sonic can gimp ness recovery, but as long as he doesn't use his 2nd jump, it really isn't a problem.

 

[Smashbros_7]

Okay Ivana, I want to help. I will try to act less fanboyish...

 

[Smashbros_7]

I think Ness should be at a neutral on Sonic. You see, while it may be difficult to land a KO on Sonic, Sonic has a huge problem. Is lack of priority and kill moves. They seriously hinder him. I was at 150%, and my Sonic opponent had to rely on his bac k air to kill. (He overused his forward smash) Ness grab may be his reliable killer, but his still has some. No not his bat. Hiis bat is horrible against Sonic. Ness can relie on Short hop RAR back airs. If Sonic performs a ground attack, it will be outprioritized, and he will be hit.
Sonic's aerials (besides his down air) have relativel good priority, and are good. Vs Ness aerials, Ness has the slight edge due to Ness outprioritizing his Fair and bair with Ness' own fair.

Ness doesn't always need to use his Up B recovery. His double jumps usually gets him back on the stage. And gimping Sonic is nigh impossible due to his tremendous Up B.

I originally thought Ness>Sonic, but now I think its Ness=Sonic.

 

[ROOOOY!]

You can't just tell me to argue Bowser vs Sonic and ignore it.

And I play a good deal of Ness. I don't see what advantage he has over Zelda either, but I guess that arguments been going on for a long time and I'm not gonna get into it.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I think Ness should be at a neutral on Sonic. You see, while it may be difficult to land a KO on Sonic, Sonic has a huge problem. Is lack of priority and kill moves.

Not in this matchup. the priority is quite minimal for several reasons.
ness's attacks do not cover a large amount of area. For example how DDD's Ftilt has good horizontal range but little vertical range.
Sonic can get around the priority issue.

As for killing this is not too difficult considering he has his Bair,Uair,Dsmash(why does everyone forget this) and his Fsmash.
let alone that he can force ness into using his second jump by Dtilting ness off the stage or Dthrowing him.

They seriously hinder him. I was at 150%, and my Sonic opponent had to rely on his bac k air to kill. (He overused his forward smash)

no Uair or Dsmash?
bad bad error on that Sonic.
Considering ness is a lightweight I would be using all four of those moves.
heck I would even use an ASC as a method of trying to kill if needed.
At such percents Sonic should not be having an issue killing Ness, considering Ness does not have much over Sonic.

Ness grab may be his reliable killer, but his still has some.

Grabbing sonic with ness is quite difficult. I have died more from bairs and Fsmashes then I do from his throws.

Ness can rely on Short hop RAR back airs.
If Sonic performs a ground attack, it will be outprioritized, and he will be hit.
Sonic's aerials (besides his down air) have relativel good priority, and are good. Vs Ness aerials, Ness has the slight edge due to Ness outprioritizing his Fair and bair with Ness' own fair.

but Sonic outranges all of Ness's aerials with his uair and his Bair can clash ness' when spaced correctly.
I would say ness has better aerials not because of priority, but rather because they are faster coming out(Bair specifically).

Ness doesn't always need to use his Up B recovery. His double jumps usually gets him back on the stage. And gimping Sonic is nigh impossible due to his tremendous Up B.

There are ways to place ness in a position to use his double jump.
Dair semispike
Dthrow
Dtilt
Ftilt(since it knocks them horizontally).

I originally thought Ness>Sonic, but now I think its Ness=Sonic.

Agreed.

 

[DanGR]

IvanEva- why haven't you changed Olimar~Snake to Olimar>Snake. I've already posted my arguements that justified a change. Snake mains agree with me, and so do other respected Olimar mains. Snake is outranged, outspeeded, and really doesn't have anything on Olimar except for power. It's a trend that characters with more range than Snake have the advantage.(Rob, DK)