Brawl Character Match-Up chart

[azninvasion812]

I think Falco should be equal to Meta Knight because his lasers and shine can take out his tornado and Side B.

 

[SinisterHanded]

I'd say Link only has normal disadvantage to Falco, not heavy.
His laser can be blocked by the Hylian Shield and his shine doesn't protect as well as Fox'

 

[Genetic]

Wow, that's very impressive. Tons of work. But Bowser = MK?

 

[gantrain05]

Wow, that's very impressive. Tons of work. But Bowser = MK?

i'd say so, if bowser isn't playing stupid, and he's on the defense like he should be, he's got alot of good tilts, AA combo, firebreath, and >B, which are all great moves against MK, also i play bowser as a secondary, and my friend plays MK main, and i notice in this matchup he doesn't like to go out and attack me while im recovering as he fears the bowsercide, and even w/out that bowsers Fair is a good defensive move when landing back on stage.

 

[Smashbros_7]

Yeah, to finalize Ness vs. Zelda: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=180723



We have settled on Neutral.

No we haven't! Just you and Sonic. Even Yuna thinks Ness has the ever so slight advantage.
Where is your Ness pride? Hell wheres the LUCAS DOESN'T OWN ZELDA!!!!

See Lucas is your true main. In my sexy opinion. Ness EVER SO SLIGHTLY >Zelda.

 

[Brinzy]

No we haven't! Just you and Sonic. Even Yuna thinks Ness has the ever so slight advantage.
Where is your Ness pride? Hell wheres the LUCAS DOESN'T OWN ZELDA!!!!

See Lucas is your true main. In my sexy opinion. Ness EVER SO SLIGHTLY >Zelda.

First off, Levitas, Yuna, Sonic, myself, and whoever else have said that the match is pretty even, with Ness in a slight advantage (55-45 in Ness's favor at the most, but a lot say 50-50). That slight advantage isn't enough to give Ness a check vs. Zelda, according to me and others who argue for Zelda.

Second, I have Ness pride, but I'm not stupid. I'm not a fanboy. Also, don't compare Lucas to Ness in this match-up, because Lucas is a lot worse on Zelda than Ness could ever hope to be, but I'm not debating that until it's time. Also, I'm not a Lucas main any longer, despite holding onto a little Lucas face sprite.

 

[gantrain05]

i guess i'm the only one holding on to the 60-40 advantage for ness in that matchup, i have read all the arguments and im not stupid, i just think on paper it seems alot closer than it really is, whenever i play this matchup i don't have many problems with zelda, the only real problem is her Dsmash to me, and thats not enuf to really keep me from approaching.

 

[Brinzy]

Funny, because the on-paper arguments that placed Ness in advantage weren't seen in matches for me.

 

[-__-]

Dedede has a huge disadvantage vs kirby and i just found a gimp that makes metaknight vs dedede almost impossible

 

[gantrain05]

Funny, because the on-paper arguments that placed Ness in advantage weren't seen in matches for me.

well in my experience, nothing goes down the way it says on paper, im just basing my opinion on my matches with friends and my own tourney results, i rarely ever lose to a zelda.

 

[Kasai]

Dedede has a huge disadvantage vs kirby and i just found a gimp that makes metaknight vs dedede almost impossible

Maybe some details? You have to argue the matchup. Can't just expect to get it changed because you think it's different.

 

[Brinzy]

well in my experience, nothing goes down the way it says on paper, im just basing my opinion on my matches with friends and my own tourney results, i rarely ever lose to a zelda.

Yeah, that seems to be what everyone says. "I rarely lose to ____, so I don't believe this is a bad matchup." The problem with that logic is that not everyone plays the same way, and your own playstyle might just happen to be better than the playstyle of whoever you're beating.



Regardless, please, tell me... why is the match 60-40? I swear everyone says this to me and they regurgitate the same crap over and over to me, yet I've personally refuted a good chunk of it time and time again, and so have others. Please say something I haven't heard yet. Please.

 

[Smashbros_7]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=180723&page=12

Uffe
Ztarfish
Smashbros_7
Earthbound360
Capzom

Have Ness as an advantage over Zelda.
Even YUNA has Ness>Zelda. (slightly)

Please succesor, if you really thought Ness was =Zelda then you would be complaining about Lucas too.
PS: You don't seem to dig Ness much. How? Vibes from you.

55 Ness
45 Zelda for some

or 60 Ness
40 Zelda for others. Thats what it sounds like to me.

 

[Xyro77]

This list gets worse every time i see it.

 

[Adapt]

This list gets worse every time i see it.

Really? It seems to me that it never really changes

 

[gantrain05]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=180723&page=12

Uffe
Ztarfish
Smashbros_7
Earthbound360
Capzom

Have Ness as an advantage over Zelda.
Even YUNA has Ness>Zelda. (slightly)

Please succesor, if you really thought Ness was =Zelda then you would be complaining about Lucas too.
PS: You don't seem to dig Ness much. How? Vibes from you.

55 Ness
45 Zelda for some

or 60 Ness
40 Zelda for others. Thats what it sounds like to me.

i have it at advantage ness too to add one to that list.

 

[Smashbros_7]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=176992

Huge guide on the Ness vs Zelda matchup.

 

[Brinzy]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=180723&page=12

Uffe
Ztarfish
Smashbros_7
Earthbound360
Capzom

Have Ness as an advantage over Zelda.
Even YUNA has Ness>Zelda. (slightly)

Please succesor, if you really thought Ness was =Zelda then you would be complaining about Lucas too.
PS: You don't seem to dig Ness much. How? Vibes from you.

55 Ness
45 Zelda for some

or 60 Ness
40 Zelda for others. Thats what it sounds like to me.

Didn't I say 55-45 too? Also, I know Lucas > Zelda, and I've debated that before.

This is the first time that you've actually annoyed me. "I don't dig Ness," says you. I main the character, as I've told you before. Give it a rest.

Also, most of that list believes that Ness completely dominates Zelda (and they stand by, at the most 60-40, which isn't dominating anyway), while EVERYONE ELSE goes 55-45 or 50-50. The majority says even.

Myself
Yuna
Sonic
Nestec
Levitas

to name five off the top of my head, but I'm sure there are more in the thread.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=176992

Huge guide on the Ness vs Zelda matchup.

Wait a sec, are you actually gonna take some biased guide from the most firm believer of "Ness shreds Zelda" nonsense and try to act like it's totally valid? Ridiculous.

 

[IvanEva]

Really? It seems to me that it never really changes

I have no excuse apart from it being summer. I mean, I love my games and all that but I'm also pretty big on not staying indoors all day. I'm making an update right now though.

Edit: if the match-up chart is one level away from what's "correct" than state it, bring up your points and counter/comment if something good comes up. However, don't go too overboard or get overly dramatic. I'm much more concerned with match-ups that are WAY off. Snake's in particular just aren't matching up with his godliness. I don't play any Snakes so I've been hesitant to touch his match-ups for a bit. He's godly with no real counters so the chart should be showing it...

 

[Onxy]

Wow, Ness is equal with Charizard now. Meh, I guess having a death grab with probably the longest non-tether grab really brings a character down.

 

[Smashbros_7]

Didn't I say 55-45 too? Also, I know Lucas > Zelda, and I've debated that before.

This is the first time that you've actually annoyed me. "I don't dig Ness," says you. I main the character, as I've told you before. Give it a rest.

Also, most of that list believes that Ness completely dominates Zelda (and they stand by, at the most 60-40, which isn't dominating anyway), while EVERYONE ELSE goes 55-45 or 50-50. The majority says even.

Myself
Yuna
Sonic
Nestec
Levitas

to name five off the top of my head, but I'm sure there are more in the thread.



Wait a sec, are you actually gonna take some biased guide from the most firm believer of "Ness shreds Zelda" nonsense and try to act like it's totally valid? Ridiculous.

And who on that lists plays as Zelda? Yuna, and Sonic. I barely heard any input from Levitas and Nestec, and you... I don't know what you are. You say your a Ness main but your gameplay fits someone else. You say your a Ness main, but EVERY time someone has Ness>anyone you argue against it!

We've had other more arguments with Ness vs Zelda, no one ended it, we just stopped due to you, Yuna, and Sonic copying and retialiting everything some has to posts.

No it's,

Raph
Sonic
Yuna (I heard him say Ness has the slight advantage)

Forget our argument, Ness will probably have an Neutral on Zelda by the end of the day. You know what you should do? Something useful, and argue against the X's on Ness' case, not the advantages. Why don't you just changes mains it's clear to me you dislike Ness as a character Playing the character doesn't mean you main them. You need more.

 

[Adapt]

I have no excuse apart from it being summer. I mean, I love my games and all that but I'm also pretty big on not staying indoors all day. I'm making an update right now though.

Edit: if the match-up chart is one level away from what's "correct" than state it, bring up your points and counter/comment if something good comes up. However, don't go too overboard or get overly dramatic. I'm much more concerned with match-ups that are WAY off. Snake's in particular just aren't matching up with his godliness. I don't play any Snakes so I've been hesitant to touch his match-ups for a bit. He's godly with no real counters so the chart should be showing it...

I do see the updates you do, it's just that there are large portions of the chart that are basically ignored

ZSS is the one I am most familiar with, but i think TL and DDD could also use some heavy revision. Peach used to be the same but recently you have started to work on her row. Snake is not a bad idea either, but people are starting to question his "godliness"

 

[DanGR]

It's funny how if I were to make a matchup thread for Olimar, and I were to include Rob in it, and I put Rob at a 7:3 disadvantage against Olimar, everyone would laugh at me and the thread wouldn't exist anymore. But no, I put Olimar at a 7:3 disadvantage instead. Why would someone say that zelda is ness' easiest matchup in a matchup thread, giving every reason you could possibly want as to why it's in favor of ness, and it still be running??? This thread proves his point that Ness>Zelda and anybody saying that it's just a bias thread needs to just be quiet b/c that's the dumbest argument out there. Anyone who says that is bias themselves, so...??? Why don't y'all argue the facts?

 

[Brinzy]

And who on that lists plays as Zelda? Yuna, and Sonic. I barely heard any input from Levitas and Nestec, and you... I don't know what you are. You say your a Ness main but your gameplay fits someone else. You say your a Ness main, but EVERY time someone has Ness>anyone you argue against it!

We've had other more arguments with Ness vs Zelda, no one ended it, we just stopped due to you, Yuna, and Sonic copying and retialiting everything some has to posts.

No it's,

Raph
Sonic
Yuna (I heard him say Ness has the slight advantage)

Forget our argument, Ness will probably have an Neutral on Zelda by the end of the day. You know what you should do? Something useful, and argue against the X's on Ness' case, not the advantages. Why don't you just changes mains it's clear to me you dislike Ness as a character Playing the character doesn't mean you main them. You need more.

Barely any input? Those two had input on the matchup. Read the thread. Barely would be those who went in the thread, posted some Ness > Zelda two-sentence post, and left.

I play Zelda too. I don't argue against everything that deals with Ness. It just seems that way because RECENTLY I've been caught up in this Zelda/Sheik crap. Also, I'm sick and tired of people accusing those supporting Zelda as just copying stuff and writing off everything as false. I'm tired of being the bad guy here when everyone else gets off with a free pass by doing the same exact thing I'm doing but with a character that you just so happen to fanboy. It's irritating, it really is.

I've been trying to get neutral for the longest effing time. Also, I don't ****ing dislike Ness. I'm just not going to play the idiot about his matchups and pretend that he's oh-so-godly vs. everyone. I'm not an idiot. Just because I don't take the popular opinion and stance by posting something that Ness can do to everyone but instead try to bring validity to my arguments doesn't mean I hate my own main. If I hated him, I wouldn't use him, period. Don't sit here and accuse me of disliking/liking characters just because of what I have to say about them. If you want anything to get done, leave out the unnecessary bull**** attacks against me. I'll argue for Ness (as I've already been doing), but in the meantime, get off of my case.

It's funny how if I were to make a matchup thread for Olimar, and I were to include Rob in it, and I put Rob at a 7:3 disadvantage against Olimar, everyone would laugh at me and the thread wouldn't exist anymore. But no, I put Olimar at a 7:3 disadvantage instead. Why would someone say that zelda is ness' easiest matchup in a matchup thread, giving every reason you could possibly want as to why it's in favor of ness, and it still be running??? This thread proves his point that Ness>Zelda and anybody saying that it's just a bias thread needs to just be quiet b/c that's the dumbest argument out there. Anyone who says that is bias themselves, so...??? Why don't y'all argue the facts?

Pure idiocy. You look at one thread and suddenly, "OMG anyone who disagrees cuz of my observations is biased and needs facts!" You want facts? Here you go:

- it was posted on the Ness board
- it was posted by some rabid Ness fanboy who argues, "I can keep Zelda in the air with PKF in the 80s for as long as I want", which doesn't happen to anyone with two brain cells
- it was approved by Ness mains and it had no input from Zelda mains
- it was approved because it was long. Length =/= being right
- in another thread, Ness mains said themselves that the guide seemed biased (Or rather, "Please tell me this is a joke.")
- nobody is in the thread debating with him because... guess what... he's in another thread debating against us. People have already gotten onto him for it IN ANOTHER THREAD.

Don't take crap for face value and then judge the other side based off of incomplete observations that you made about the situation. Learn the facts about us before you spout your nonsense about telling us to get our facts straight. Stay out of the argument if you don't know what the hell you're talking about. I'm sorry for becoming hostile, but I don't need to read your crap when you're not even in the **** argument and you don't have the foggiest idea about the subject.

 

[IvanEva]

1. I do see the updates you do, it's just that there are large portions of the chart that are basically ignored

2. ZSS is the one I am most familiar with, but i think TL and DDD could also use some heavy revision. Peach used to be the same but recently you have started to work on her row. Snake is not a bad idea either, but people are starting to question his "godliness"

1. Yeah, some characters just plain don't see much action, especially around here, which makes it difficult to evaluate their match-ups. Hell, it's really only because I had Niko (Peach player) over for a bit that I got to finally see her in action.

2. Heavy revision on Toon Link and Dedede? Who? Also, while Snake isn't completely broken, he's still definitly the best (or possibly second best behind Metaknight) character in the game with no solid counters.

EDIT: Can we move on from the Ness vs. Zelda stuff and perhaps focus a bit on how much Snake kills everybody? I'm leaving Ness at a small advantage over Zelda for now but it's just a small one. I can see it being neutral as well but I'm not terribly inclined to change it until I play that match-up a bit more. If anybody has any good Ness vs. Zelda videos, I'd love to watch some.

 

[DanGR]

The only questionable Snake matchups I see are Olimar and Pikachu. I know Olimar>Snake from experience and from other respected Olimar main's experince and opinion. I heard a great arguement about pikachu>snake a while ago, but no-one really commented.

Successor of Raphael- I'm not going to get into y'all's arguement. I don't know too much about the matchup. The thing is, y'all are arguing about whether or not the dude who made the thread is bias or not, not the facts about the matchup specifically. I think that quote "Please tell me this is a joke." was referencing the idea that Zelda=Ness. He couldn't believe that anyone would argue with Ness>Zelda. He then went on to link the matchup thread, indirectly pointing out the section about zelda, that it's one of, if not the easiest matchup for ness. I'm not gonna argue with you dude. I don't know crap about the matchup. It could very well be Zelda>Ness for all I care. I'm just trying to clear up any pointless arguements. Go ahead and just disregard all the bias that was in that matchup thread. Argue the facts of the matchup. That's all there is to it.

 

[gantrain05]

honestly? if you want to defeat a great ness with zelda, turn into shiek, because she has a huge advantage over him, while zelda does not.

 

[Morrigan]

IvanEva, here's another Peach match-up thread you would want to add:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=178193

 

[Kiwikomix]

You say your a Ness main, but EVERY time someone has Ness>anyone you argue against it!

Maybe that's because he actually DOESN'T have main bias, and he'd rather say the truth than lie for his main's sake. That's a lot more than I can say for a lot of posters on this thread.

 

[Justaway]

why is metaknight even with bowser?

 

[adumbrodeus]

And who on that lists plays as Zelda? Yuna, and Sonic. I barely heard any input from Levitas and Nestec, and you... I don't know what you are. You say your a Ness main but your gameplay fits someone else. You say your a Ness main, but EVERY time someone has Ness>anyone you argue against it!

Forget our argument, Ness will probably have an Neutral on Zelda by the end of the day. You know what you should do? Something useful, and argue against the X's on Ness' case, not the advantages. Why don't you just changes mains it's clear to me you dislike Ness as a character Playing the character doesn't mean you main them. You need more.

Wait... so you should be biased towards your main? Give him/her/it/potato advantages that he/she/it/potato doesn't have?


That only hurts the character overall, because it makes it more difficult for people to know when to pull out a secondary.


Saying that a character has a disadvantage against another character is not an indicator of dislike, it's an opinion about how a match-up is. It doesn't suggest anything about how much you like or dislike a character.


So, think objectively, the "supporting your main" mentality is useless.

Whether he's correct or not, on this, his opinions about Ness' match-ups bear no relation to his love for the character.

 

[Clai]

I would just like to give some attention to match-up that I was part of not a while ago. As a Ganondorf main, I'm already accustomed to the idea that I have to work hard just to catch up with most matchups, but then I found myself playing a ROB who seemed to be up-to-date with the current strategies. And considering I ended up winning the match 2-0 with one stock left on each, it got me thinking. Maybe Ganondorf doesn't have horrible matchups with everyone after all. I'm just putting my input, we'll see how it goes.

My verdict: Ganondorf = ROB

Ganondorf and ROB are both, by nature, campers. ROB because it has its projectiles and its movement and speed are better suited with driving away approachers than with approaching itself. Ganon's a camper because he's too slow to approach effectively. When matched up with someone who plays at a speed faster than his own, Ganon gets *****; but I found that he's actually quite effective when playing an opponent whose playstyle speed matches the player's own. ROB's ground and aerial speed are too slow to mess with Ganon's head, and that's the basis of this neutrality argument.

Considering that ROB can fling projectiles all day, Ganondorf will eventually have to approach ROB. Of course, this is best when ROB recently used his gyro/lasers. Ganon can easily SHAD a laser or a gyro thrown at him; if done by succession, Ganon should just SHAD the first projectile and shield the next one. If Ganon ends up sheilding the gyro, he should just wait for the gyro to run out or grab it using a dash attack, because standing between ROB and a gyro is just stupid. If there isn't a gyro on the ground, Wizard's Foot, dash attacks, and short-hop Flame Chokes are the best way to approach him- Flame Chokes needing to be short-hopped so it could go over ROB's d-smash, by far his quickest technique when he's on the ground. Ganon's D-smash also outranges ROB's d-smash, and when used correctly, sends ROB over and behind Ganon, which is perfect for Ganon to follow up with up-air because ROB's nair is slower than Ganon's uair and Ganon should be below the range of ROB's bair.

On the topic of aerials, Ganon's up-air has farther range than ROB's fair, while being faster than ROB's nair and d-air. Basically, ROB's foward quadrant and lower quadrant are threatened by Ganon because of that up-air. It also means that ROB can't effectively edgegaurd Ganon unless somehow Ganon's back is facing ROB. ROB also has to watch out in case Ganon decides to go suicidal and teach ROB about trying to edgegaud him. Ganon obviously cannot edgegaurd ROB unless it somehow gets below Ganon, in which case it should watch out for a reverse uair or a regular Ganon-spike. This shouldn't happen, because Ganon doesn't have any moves that send ROB in a downward trajectory and close enough that Ganon can follow up with an attack before ROB flies away.

Both sides are going to have trouble killing each other. ROB doesn't have many kill moves that have enough range that ROB can get near Ganon without worrying about being grabbed, flame-choked, D-smashed, or auto-canceled d-air'd. The same thing applying to Ganon, who's going to make most of his moves stale trying to damage ROB and may need to land a f-tilt or b-air to finally take the stock. Certainly, that luck can also apply to ROB and landing his kill moves as well, so we definately can't favor one side over another as to which side can kill the other first.

So reaching the conclusion:
Ganondorf vs. ROB: Neutral
Reason: Both characters are campy by nature and it won't be any easier for one character to consistently rack up damage and land a kill move than it will be for the other side. It is up to the player to determine which side will camp more and the player's judgement as to when to approach and when to keep the other side away.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I would just like to give some attention to match-up that I was part of not a while ago. As a Ganondorf main, I'm already accustomed to the idea that I have to work hard just to catch up with most matchups, but then I found myself playing a ROB who seemed to be up-to-date with the current strategies. And considering I ended up winning the match 2-0 with one stock left on each, it got me thinking. Maybe Ganondorf doesn't have horrible matchups with everyone after all. I'm just putting my input, we'll see how it goes.

My verdict: Ganondorf = ROB

Ganondorf and ROB are both, by nature, campers. ROB because it has its projectiles and its movement and speed are better suited with driving away approachers than with approaching itself. Ganon's a camper because he's too slow to approach effectively. When matched up with someone who plays at a speed faster than his own, Ganon gets *****; but I found that he's actually quite effective when playing an opponent whose playstyle speed matches the player's own. ROB's ground and aerial speed are too slow to mess with Ganon's head, and that's the basis of this neutrality argument.

Considering that ROB can fling projectiles all day, Ganondorf will eventually have to approach ROB. Of course, this is best when ROB recently used his gyro/lasers. Ganon can easily SHAD a laser or a gyro thrown at him; if done by succession, Ganon should just SHAD the first projectile and shield the next one. If Ganon ends up sheilding the gyro, he should just wait for the gyro to run out or grab it using a dash attack, because standing between ROB and a gyro is just stupid. If there isn't a gyro on the ground, Wizard's Foot, dash attacks, and short-hop Flame Chokes are the best way to approach him- Flame Chokes needing to be short-hopped so it could go over ROB's d-smash, by far his quickest technique when he's on the ground. Ganon's D-smash also outranges ROB's d-smash, and when used correctly, sends ROB over and behind Ganon, which is perfect for Ganon to follow up with up-air because ROB's nair is slower than Ganon's uair and Ganon should be below the range of ROB's bair.

On the topic of aerials, Ganon's up-air has farther range than ROB's fair, while being faster than ROB's nair and d-air. Basically, ROB's foward quadrant and lower quadrant are threatened by Ganon because of that up-air. It also means that ROB can't effectively edgegaurd Ganon unless somehow Ganon's back is facing ROB. ROB also has to watch out in case Ganon decides to go suicidal and teach ROB about trying to edgegaud him. Ganon obviously cannot edgegaurd ROB unless it somehow gets below Ganon, in which case it should watch out for a reverse uair or a regular Ganon-spike. This shouldn't happen, because Ganon doesn't have any moves that send ROB in a downward trajectory and close enough that Ganon can follow up with an attack before ROB flies away.

Both sides are going to have trouble killing each other. ROB doesn't have many kill moves that have enough range that ROB can get near Ganon without worrying about being grabbed, flame-choked, D-smashed, or auto-canceled d-air'd. The same thing applying to Ganon, who's going to make most of his moves stale trying to damage ROB and may need to land a f-tilt or b-air to finally take the stock. Certainly, that luck can also apply to ROB and landing his kill moves as well, so we definately can't favor one side over another as to which side can kill the other first.

So reaching the conclusion:
Ganondorf vs. ROB: Neutral
Reason: Both characters are campy by nature and it won't be any easier for one character to consistently rack up damage and land a kill move than it will be for the other side. It is up to the player to determine which side will camp more and the player's judgement as to when to approach and when to keep the other side away.

If only...

If nothing else, ROB has a couple of nice moves that are safe on block to use on gannondorf while gannondorf has NO safe approaches. It would be less of an issue if the projectiles were Gannondorf's thing... but they're not.

Which sucks.

 

[ROOOOY!]

why is metaknight even with bowser?

The only thing I can think of is weight.
A defensive Bowser maybe close enough to neutral, but an offensive Bowser against a Metaknight is horribly one-sided in MK's favour.

Also, Bowser = Sonic makes me ;_;. One of Sonic's easier match ups.

Then, Sonic mains get by in large ignored because of the whole 'no priority no kill moves bawwww', so there's no point in arguing. :\

 

[Clai]

If only...

If nothing else, ROB has a couple of nice moves that are safe on block to use on gannondorf while gannondorf has NO safe approaches. It would be less of an issue if the projectiles were Gannondorf's thing... but they're not.

Which sucks.

Which kind of moves would that be? If they're on the ground, Ganon can roll away or maybe try a retreating aerial, which is a whole lot safer than Ganon's other approaches. If it's shorthopped, I doubt ROB can follow it up with anything else before Ganon unleashes a Wizard's Foot or Flame Choke.

Plus, you used two N's in Ganondorf's name, instantly making your argument GANNON-BANNED!

Okay, I was making a joke, but seriously. I'm not trying to pull anyone's leg here. I really don't see any inherent advantages one character has over the other.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Ganondorf a camper?
O_o

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Ganondorf a camper?
O_o

That Warlock Paunch spam will get you everytime time

MIRITE?

 

[Brinzy]

Successor of Raphael- I'm not going to get into y'all's arguement. I don't know too much about the matchup. The thing is, y'all are arguing about whether or not the dude who made the thread is bias or not, not the facts about the matchup specifically. I think that quote "Please tell me this is a joke." was referencing the idea that Zelda=Ness. He couldn't believe that anyone would argue with Ness>Zelda. He then went on to link the matchup thread, indirectly pointing out the section about zelda, that it's one of, if not the easiest matchup for ness. I'm not gonna argue with you dude. I don't know crap about the matchup. It could very well be Zelda>Ness for all I care. I'm just trying to clear up any pointless arguements. Go ahead and just disregard all the bias that was in that matchup thread. Argue the facts of the matchup. That's all there is to it.

Holy crap. I've been doing this for weeks now, and the only thing people have to say to me over and over again is to quit arguing about biased views, when I've been doing so much more than that. I obviously don't expect you to know that, but I'm tired of being shot down for the most ridiculous crap. I have been arguing the facts of the matchup along with two others... against the whole Ness board. The last thing I need to be told is something I'm already doing. I said ONE thing about that thread here, and that was how it's biased to finalize the decision based off of a single post and the "omg Ness be so awsum" posters... but of course, since that's all you see, that's all we're arguing about here, right? Give me a break.

honestly? if you want to defeat a great ness with zelda, turn into shiek, because she has a huge advantage over him, while zelda does not.

Thanks for saying what we've all been saying. Zelda doesn't have an advantage on Ness. Everyone arguing for Zelda has acknowledged this. We're arguing that Zelda = Ness rather than Ness > Zelda.

Maybe that's because he actually DOESN'T have main bias, and he'd rather say the truth than lie for his main's sake. That's a lot more than I can say for a lot of posters on this thread.

Wait... so you should be biased towards your main? Give him/her/it/potato advantages that he/she/it/potato doesn't have?


That only hurts the character overall, because it makes it more difficult for people to know when to pull out a secondary.


Saying that a character has a disadvantage against another character is not an indicator of dislike, it's an opinion about how a match-up is. It doesn't suggest anything about how much you like or dislike a character.


So, think objectively, the "supporting your main" mentality is useless.

Whether he's correct or not, on this, his opinions about Ness' match-ups bear no relation to his love for the character.

Yes, exactly. Thanks, to the two of you. People have been shunning any credibility my arguments have because of the very fact that I'm not giving my main as much credit as they want me to give him.

EDIT: Can we move on from the Ness vs. Zelda stuff and perhaps focus a bit on how much Snake kills everybody? I'm leaving Ness at a small advantage over Zelda for now but it's just a small one. I can see it being neutral as well but I'm not terribly inclined to change it until I play that match-up a bit more. If anybody has any good Ness vs. Zelda videos, I'd love to watch some.

... So... after all this, you leave it at that? Tell me, why must you yourself play this match when Ness mains and Zelda mains go for Neutral? Have you even seen the threads that discussed this match?

 

[adumbrodeus]

Which kind of moves would that be? If they're on the ground, Ganon can roll away or maybe try a retreating aerial, which is a whole lot safer than Ganon's other approaches. If it's shorthopped, I doubt ROB can follow it up with anything else before Ganon unleashes a Wizard's Foot or Flame Choke.

Ftilt.

Sure, you can roll away, but you don't have the ability to punish ROB off it (if properly spaced), and it comes out fast. Which means that he can be offensive without fear of being punished, and that's a major advantage.

The stronger the players involved, the more evident this issue will be. It's not the only thing, but it's certainly the easiest to point to.

Plus, you used two N's in Ganondorf's name, instantly making your argument GANNON-BANNED!

OH NO! The shame of it, for my secondary as well, I must commit seppuku in order to regain my honor.

Okay, I was making a joke, but seriously. I'm not trying to pull anyone's leg here. I really don't see any inherent advantages one character has over the other.

It's an uphill battle, sorry no ifs ands or buts about it.

Ganondorf a camper?
O_o

In certain match-ups he has to be. But he's forced to approach in this one. You don't need to be a projectile user to camp, you just can't force an approach.

 

[SmashBrother2008]

*oh great, here comes somebody else with an argument*...

Not really, I would like to defend Falcon's matchup with Ike. I would point out that they should be neutral. Many of Ikes attacks initiate slowly enough for Falcon to actually get his sluggish hits in. Proper use of timing on the Falcon Kick and Raptor boost seems to be an effective way to counter a smash-happy Ike. You may not agree but whenever I play against an Ike as CF, it feels far less challenging than many of his other matchups. Ike is a character that CF can actually punish.