Brawl Character Match-Up chart

[Dark Sonic]

i might agree w/ u on DK a bit, but in order to tech the bottom or side of the stage after dks throw still takes some really good skills

No it doesn't. Teching is extremely easy to do when you see a move coming.

 

[Pierce7d]

I agree with Sonic Wave. Furthermore, we should always assume we're talking about the highest level of play in match-up discussion, and at this level, people will almost always tech vs. this technique.

 

[Mmac]

on dk vs yoshi, the little jab release cg is escapable if the dk just mashes jump

i think burntsocks summed it up

It's been tested. As long as Yoshi reacts instantly after the release, DK Can't escape no matter what.

And I think we discussed on Burntsocks view also. DK's arm can be grabbed during the Ftilt, but it is still rather annoying nonetheless. Also the gimping part sounds more like mindgames rather than actual gimping ability. I'm pretty sure lots of characters can do the "Jump fake out, then jump back with an Attack" thing, and that only works if he falls for it.

 

[Dyxnar14]

All Dk players always to the stage throw(Well DK's I play) and I can see when it would be a predictable situation. So all you have to do is Stage Tech? And theres the DK edge hogging as well so characters like marth can sweetspot his Up B and make DK ricochet from the stage basically killing DK Unless the stage tech is fast enough. Anyways though, Cool updates. Kirby is 1 of my 5 mains.

 

[Garquille14]

People didn't seem to like the first iteration of this, but how about now? Is there any sound base to the matchup chart?

 

[Goodstyle]

Hey TC is back.

Anywho, Ness should be a neutral against DK . Sure, DK may have amazing range that makes Ness quiver, (**** Forward tilts, and down tilts) but Ness has some key techs.

1. edgeguarding that Monkeys pitiful recovery, you can anticipate where he will land, and use PKT2 (hitting yourself) PKF works too. DK has some lad on his recovery when he lands, so most DK players will go for the edge to grab. Ness mighty down spike will make DK tremble.

2. Aerials outspeed all of DK aerials (except that **** backair) And they cut through him like butter.

3. No CG, No infinite, nothing.
Ness lucked out, with extensive tests, DK cannot do anything to Ness. (thank god)

4. PKF really hurts big characters like DK.
This setup leads into grabs, and Forward smash from Ness. (The bat is to slow to hit with normally)
Ness also HAS B-sticking, search up PK jump on Youtube, or check the Ness boards. It isn't quite as good as Lucas' but it still has it's uses.


Im not asking for a miracle, I just find that Ness=DK. They both have things that they have on each other. This matchup should become neutral.

 

[Red.Tide]

I would like to revive the Kirby vs. Falco debate, which stopped when I went to summer camp for 2 weeks. In my opinion, Kirby has a small advantage, but I would be happy with a neutral.

Earlier, Falco players said Falco's smashes > Kirby's smashes.

Falco's Fsmash and Kirby's have similar speed, Kirby's stays out longer, and Falco's has the range advantage. However, there is not as much of a range advantage as it seems, because the edge of Falco's has just about no KO power at all. Kirby's kills Falco earlier than Falco kills Kirby. Also, Falco's leaves him more open to being punished, it seems.

Falco's usmash and dsmash have better range and speed than Kirby's. Still, Kirby's usmash kills Falco at lower % than Falco's kill Kirby, and same with dsmash. Falco's dsmash has almost no KO power at all.
Tested in training mode, center of FD, set player 2 to control, so no D.I., no stale moves.

They say that Falco's bair beats Kirby's air game. This is simply not true. Kirby's bair has a tiny bit more startup lag, but still very little. It significantly outranges and outprioritizes Falco's, and has more killing power, too.

I will try to get exact numbers of Kirby's and Falco's best killing moves tomorrow; I wrote them down; I just have to find them.

 

[cheetacuz007]

the snake matchup thread has moved here

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=175515

 

[Brinzy]

Ivysaur vs. Ike = advantage for Ivysaur

Ivysaur vs. Ganon = neutral



... wat

 

[SmashBrother2008]

I would like to revive the Kirby vs. Falco debate, which stopped when I went to summer camp for 2 weeks. In my opinion, Kirby has a small advantage, but I would be happy with a neutral.

Earlier, Falco players said Falco's smashes > Kirby's smashes.

Falco's Fsmash and Kirby's have similar speed, Kirby's stays out longer, and Falco's has the range advantage. However, there is not as much of a range advantage as it seems, because the edge of Falco's has just about no KO power at all. Kirby's kills Falco earlier than Falco kills Kirby. Also, Falco's leaves him more open to being punished, it seems.

Falco's usmash and dsmash have better range and speed than Kirby's. Still, Kirby's usmash kills Falco at lower % than Falco's kill Kirby, and same with dsmash. Falco's dsmash has almost no KO power at all.
Tested in training mode, center of FD, set player 2 to control, so no D.I., no stale moves.

They say that Falco's bair beats Kirby's air game. This is simply not true. Kirby's bair has a tiny bit more startup lag, but still very little. It significantly outranges and outprioritizes Falco's, and has more killing power, too.

I will try to get exact numbers of Kirby's and Falco's best killing moves tomorrow; I wrote them down; I just have to find them.

I would have to agree. Kirby's smashes are more quick and his side smashes move him about. I can generally read Falco's smashes in time to dodge or roll. I'm not sure how that affects the matchup but deffinetely Kirby smashes > Falco Smashes.

 

[Dpete]

But, the question is whether or not Kirby will be able to make use of his smashes. Falco has lots of options to maintain good spacing, including his reflector, lasers, and phantasms, making it hard for Kirby to get in and connect his smashes.

Edit: On a side note, I want to mention how much trouble I am having in getting people outside of the Kirby community to discuss his matchups. Its hard to get rid of the supposed bias in our ranks when we can't get anyone to provide any rebuttal to our arguments.

 

[Red.Tide]

But, the question is whether or not Kirby will be able to make use of his smashes. Falco has lots of options to maintain good spacing, including his reflector, lasers, and phantasms, making it hard for Kirby to get in and connect his smashes.

Edit: On a side note, I want to mention how much trouble I am having in getting people outside of the Kirby community to discuss his matchups. Its hard to get rid of the supposed bias in our ranks when we can't get anyone to provide any rebuttal to our arguments.

Quite a few moves lead into Kirby's smashes. I don't think most Kirby players have trouble landing a fsmash.

And here's the specific data of all of Kirby's and Falco's killing moves on each other under 150% (before the attack's damage). All from center of Final Destination, all smashes uncharged, no DI.

Kirby kills Falco:
ground hammer 77%
fsmash 86% (the non-lagged hit)
air hammer hit 2 92%
usmash 95% (from the front)
stone 96%
dsmash 106% (kills off the top)
air hammer hit 1 109%
bair 116% (if hit at beginning of the move)
dsmash 120% (if Kirby hits with the very tip of the feet. Sends Falco sideways rather than up)

Falco kills Kirby:
fsmash 96% (not the edge of his wing)
usmash 108% (from the front)
bair 125%
uair 131% (this is with Kirby in the air a bit, so the attack could hit him properly)
dsmash 137% (very weak for a smash, but it's quick)
usmash 139% (From the back, had to have Kirby in the air slightly so he would get hit)
dtilt 140%
utilt 143%

As you can see, Kirby has many more low damage kill options than Falco has.

 

[Dpete]

Still, Falco has a pretty good spacing game. Other characters that can give Kirby trouble with spacing, aka Marth, are among Kirby's hardest matchups...

 

[Kiwikomix]

Still, Falco has a pretty good spacing game. Other characters that can give Kirby trouble with spacing, aka Marth, are among Kirby's hardest matchups...

Nah, Marth wins the matchup just because he blatantly outranges him in the air.
On the ground fsmash outranges all of Marth's attacks but I'm pretty sure it can get outprioritized.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Edit: On a side note, I want to mention how much trouble I am having in getting people outside of the Kirby community to discuss his matchups. Its hard to get rid of the supposed bias in our ranks when we can't get anyone to provide any rebuttal to our arguments.

Your best bet is to ask to board opposite to you on the match-up, cause they're the most likely people to have the character specific data the match-up needs AND they're also the most likely to be interested.

I'll definitely drop by when you do Marth, more then likely drop by as well when you do my secondaries.

 

[EggZavier]

Nice Match up chart

 

[PhantomBrawler]

Quite a few moves lead into Kirby's smashes. I don't think most Kirby players have trouble landing a fsmash.

And here's the specific data of all of Kirby's and Falco's killing moves on each other under 150% (before the attack's damage). All from center of Final Destination, all smashes uncharged, no DI.

Kirby kills Falco:
ground hammer 77%
fsmash 86% (the non-lagged hit)
air hammer hit 2 92%
usmash 95% (from the front)
stone 96%
dsmash 106% (kills off the top)
air hammer hit 1 109%
bair 116% (if hit at beginning of the move)
dsmash 120% (if Kirby hits with the very tip of the feet. Sends Falco sideways rather than up)

Falco kills Kirby:
fsmash 96% (not the edge of his wing)
usmash 108% (from the front)
bair 125%
uair 131% (this is with Kirby in the air a bit, so the attack could hit him properly)
dsmash 137% (very weak for a smash, but it's quick)
usmash 139% (From the back, had to have Kirby in the air slightly so he would get hit)
dtilt 140%
utilt 143%

As you can see, Kirby has many more low damage kill options than Falco has.

It has been discussed over and over and over about kirby>falco...and its just not the case. If kirby was a true counter to falco, then the falco community would be talking about kirby and we arent. Its a well known fact that falco has limited killing options IN EVERY MATCH-UP...and as you can see, despite that he still does well. Falco+Spacing=Win. Period.

 

[Dpete]

Your best bet is to ask to board opposite to you on the match-up, cause they're the most likely people to have the character specific data the match-up needs AND they're also the most likely to be interested.

I'll definitely drop by when you do Marth, more then likely drop by as well when you do my secondaries.

I'm trying to hang around the Falco boards as much as possible, creating interest in the matchup. Its hard when you're discussing a not so used character as Kirby, most people seem to either not know much about him or don't care about him.

It has been discussed over and over and over about kirby>falco...and its just not the case. If kirby was a true counter to falco, then the falco community would be talking about kirby and we arent. Its a well known fact that falco has limited killing options IN EVERY MATCH-UP...and as you can see, despite that he still does well. Falco+Spacing=Win. Period.

I'm not arguing that Kirby counters Falco at all. That is obviously not true. I just think the matchup is neutral, and I think I (along with the rest of the Kirby community) can support that pretty well. If you're really animate on this subject, drop by our thread and leave your opinions. Link is in the sig.

 

[PhantomBrawler]

I'm trying to hang around the Falco boards as much as possible, creating interest in the matchup. Its hard when you're discussing a not so used character as Kirby, most people seem to either not know much about him or don't care about him.



I'm not arguing that Kirby counters Falco at all. That is obviously not true. I just think the matchup is neutral, and I think I (along with the rest of the Kirby community) can support that pretty well. If you're really animate on this subject, drop by our thread and leave your opinions. Link is in the sig.

I know YOU weren't saying that, however it seemed that the poster i quoted thought otherwise. I can maybe agree with neutral, but im not sure. I need to play more kirbys first,lol. I may drop by the thread though sometime =)

 

[Dpete]

Nah, Marth wins the matchup just because he blatantly outranges him in the air.
On the ground fsmash outranges all of Marth's attacks but I'm pretty sure it can get outprioritized.

I guess I just think of spacing being the application of good range. A good Marth will abuse his range to stay out of range of Kirby's attacks yet still in range for his attacks. Sounds like good spacing to me... Falco may not be able to do it as well as Marth, but it still influences this matchup quite a bit.

I need to play more kirbys first,lol.

And there's some support for my statement about most people not knowing much about Kirby.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I'm trying to hang around the Falco boards as much as possible, creating interest in the matchup. Its hard when you're discussing a not so used character as Kirby, most people seem to either not know much about him or don't care about him.

Tell them that you've concluded it's a kirby advantage so far. That tends to make people interested, fast.


The PT Marth discussion got a whole lot more interesting when people concluded Charizard had an advantage over Marth.

 

[Dpete]

Make myself sound like a biased idiot to spur a debate? Sounds like fun. <Runs off to Falco boards>

 

[Red.Tide]

It has been discussed over and over and over about kirby>falco...and its just not the case. If kirby was a true counter to falco, then the falco community would be talking about kirby and we arent. Its a well known fact that falco has limited killing options IN EVERY MATCH-UP...and as you can see, despite that he still does well. Falco+Spacing=Win. Period.

I don't think Kirby is a Falco counter. Kirby is a Fox counter, maybe a Wolf counter.

Falco does have the advantage in spacing, which is quite an advantage. Kirby has the advantage in ko power, comboing/chain throwing, aerial game, it's easier for Kirby to gimp Falco than vice versa, although it's still hard.

Spacing is a big advantage, but Kirby has so many things going for him in this matchup that I would consider it somewhere from 50-50 to 60-40 Kirby.

 

[MK26]

Make myself sound like a biased idiot to spur a debate? Sounds like fun. <Runs off to Falco boards>

Lmao. Sigg'd

Edit: Why doesn't it work?

 

[Adapt]

Lmao. Sigg'd

Edit: Why doesn't it work?

did you click the little box that says "show your signature"?

 

[PhantomBrawler]

I don't think Kirby is a Falco counter. Kirby is a Fox counter, maybe a Wolf counter.

Falco does have the advantage in spacing, which is quite an advantage. Kirby has the advantage in ko power, comboing/chain throwing, aerial game, it's easier for Kirby to gimp Falco than vice versa, although it's still hard.

Spacing is a big advantage, but Kirby has so many things going for him in this matchup that I would consider it somewhere from 50-50 to 60-40 Kirby.

I can agree with 50-50 MAYBE, but definitely not 60-40 kirby. There is no way that kirby is that much of a counter for falco. Falco has a camp game that you have failed to even mention in your discussion. Kirby stands little no chance against a camping falco, as kirby has only one projectile...and its his up b. Im aware that kirby can duck the lasers, but if i remember correctly he cant move while he is ducking so that really puts you no where.

Camp+shine+spacing= win for falco almost every time.

Without camping, this match up is 50-50. In no case is the match-up 60-40 kirby. this is fact.

 

[Dpete]

Don't forget that Kirby can use Falco's laser... I've always heard people say he can SH Triple Laser, but anytime I'm around a Wii I always forget to test it...

The camping discussion always comes to a stalemate. Kirby ducks. Falco mains say he is defenseless in this position, but really he can recover from it very quickly. Maybe ducking isn't Kirby's best option? Kirby is a pretty small target, and his aerial maneuverability makes it somewhat easy to dodge lasers. He does have a decent aerial approach game, notably with his Bairs.

 

[Tristan_win]

Would anyone care to explain to me why Captain Falcon is neutral with Sheik?

Last time I check it was greatly in Sheik favor.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

whoever thinks falco is that much better than dk has not been fighting a good dk

dk can break out of the cg at 17%, and upb will out prioritize falcos aerial game, so cg to spike is fairly impossible against a competent dk that knows the match. honestly, it feels kinda neutral to me, the only thing falco has on him is a projectile that ftilt doesn't block. dk can gimp falco and falco has a hard time killing dk, fox is a worse match than falco

 

[ShadowLink84]

Bigfoot. ^B is a crappy method of breaking Falco's aerial game so why even mention it?
Yeah it can breakhis aerials but if you get baited into using it you're gonna get punished harshly for it.
A grounded ^B is punishable.
An aerial ^B is punishable.

What method other than his Bair does DK have of countering Falco's aerial game?
How can he break out at 17%? Explain this please because to my knowledge, DK doesn't have anything that is as fast as Marth's ^B or Sonic's ^B.

What about the shine?

SDL~Shine is really effective in preventing DK from approaching ground wise and forces DK to go into the air.

 

[MK26]

I can agree with 50-50 MAYBE, but definitely not 60-40 kirby. There is no way that kirby is that much of a counter for falco. Falco has a camp game that you have failed to even mention in your discussion. Kirby stands little no chance against a camping falco, as kirby has only one projectile...and its his up b. Im aware that kirby can duck the lasers, but if i remember correctly he cant move while he is ducking so that really puts you no where.

Camp+shine+spacing= win for falco almost every time.

Without camping, this match up is 50-50. In no case is the match-up 60-40 kirby. this is fact.

Unfortunately you aren't aware that Kirby can duck under Falco's reflector as well. However, I still agree that this matchup is 50-50, and this should be reflected in the chart. That's all the Kirby mains are asking for.

Everyone agrees, why hasn't it been changed already?Heck, why are we still arguing?

Edit:

did you click the little box that says "show your signature"?

Yes I did. I just realized that under "Signature permissions", it says NO beside Allow BB Quote. Do I need a minimum number of posts before I can put a quote in my signature?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

*Notices Zelda vs. ness is still listed as advantage ness*

*glares*

<_<

And that Zelda and Shiek aren't listed as ****** fox....

 

[itsthebigfoot]

Bigfoot. ^B is a crappy method of breaking Falco's aerial game so why even mention it?
Yeah it can breakhis aerials but if you get baited into using it you're gonna get punished harshly for it.
A grounded ^B is punishable.
An aerial ^B is punishable.

What method other than his Bair does DK have of countering Falco's aerial game?
How can he break out at 17%? Explain this please because to my knowledge, DK doesn't have anything that is as fast as Marth's ^B or Sonic's ^B.

What about the shine?

SDL~Shine is really effective in preventing DK from approaching ground wise and forces DK to go into the air.

up beating his air game is meant for when he's off the ledge, most of the falco i've played give up at trying to gimp because every time they try upb will usually rack up 20+% on them

also, a well aimed upb is easily landed with no lag at all, and anyone caught in it will be stunned long enough for dk's dsmash/usmash

uhh, bair is dk's air game, and it still beats all falco has. also, uair to fastfalled nairs work in this matchup, which helps a lot at getting falco off the stage

shl and shines are the only thing that really gives me problems, however, to make up for this falco has one hell of a time ko-ing dk, dk on the hand will never have a problem ko-ing

to escape the cg, DI up and back and upb, worked vs forward, it will probably work vs every falco

 

[Fogo]

I just realized that under "Signature permissions", it says NO beside Allow BB Quote. Do I need a minimum number of posts before I can put a quote in my signature?

yes, yes you do.

up beating his air game is meant for when he's off the ledge, most of the falco i've played give up at trying to gimp because every time they try upb will usually rack up 20+% on them

also, a well aimed upb is easily landed with no lag at all, and anyone caught in it will be stunned long enough for dk's dsmash/usmash

uhh, bair is dk's air game, and it still beats all falco has. also, uair to fastfalled nairs work in this matchup, which helps a lot at getting falco off the stage

shl and shines are the only thing that really gives me problems, however, to make up for this falco has one hell of a time ko-ing dk, dk on the hand will never have a problem ko-ing

to escape the cg, DI up and back and upb, worked vs forward, it will probably work vs every falco

This man speaks the truth. i've seen it done.

 

[PhantomBrawler]

whoever thinks falco is that much better than dk has not been fighting a good dk

dk can break out of the cg at 17%, and upb will out prioritize falcos aerial game, so cg to spike is fairly impossible against a competent dk that knows the match. honestly, it feels kinda neutral to me, the only thing falco has on him is a projectile that ftilt doesn't block. dk can gimp falco and falco has a hard time killing dk, fox is a worse match than falco

LOL, i think its funny that you are arguing a match-up that the falco boards consider a 80-20 match-up. Its not even close my friend, DK cannot DI out at 17% and then up B. None of the other heavy characters can, so DK can't either. This is fact. To beat a dk with falco, CG+spike+edgeguard x number of stocks in match=win.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

well, the falcos i've played in tournament consider it neutral or a slight advantage

as for the cg, i've broken out of forwards cg, as well as 7 or 8 other falco's cg, but clearly all these falcos just suck

online, you can make a case, but in person, no chance

 

[PhantomBrawler]

well, the falcos i've played in tournament consider it neutral or a slight advantage

as for the cg, i've broken out of forwards cg, as well as 7 or 8 other falco's cg, but clearly all these falcos just suck

online, you can make a case, but in person, no chance

actually i would suggest otherwise, online the timing for the cg is more difficult than it would be in person.


Does Forward even use falco in brawl? I was fairly certain he mained snake. So breaking out of his cg doesnt mean much to me. Go play Sethlon, and let me know if you break out of his cg's.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

forward plays falco in brawl, and he has the cg down better than anyone i've seen

i missed sethlon last time i was in texas, but fogo saw

 

[Fogo]

actually i would suggest otherwise, online the timing for the cg is more difficult than it would be in person.


Does Forward even use falco in brawl? I was fairly certain he mained snake. So breaking out of his cg doesnt mean much to me. Go play Sethlon, and let me know if you break out of his cg's.

falco is his secondary, and he's pro, far more pro than most of the falcos out there, including you, don't argue it, he's forward.

and i'll try it next time i see seth and make a vid for you.

 

[Zero_Gamer]

eh...? I see a few problems with Pikachu.
-Pikachu v. G&W - definately a huge disadvantage. G&W outprioritizes Pikachu in every aspect and the bucket absorbs Pikachu's most important moves: Thunder and Thunder Jolt.

- Pikachu v. Lucas - This matchup isn't nearly as broken as G&W. Yeah, Lucas can absorb the Thunder and Thunder Jolt, but his priority isn't even close to G&W's making this match do-able. I'd give the advantage to Lucas, but not a huge one.

I might post more if I see any others that don't agree with me.