Brawl Character Match-Up chart

[Greenstreet]

thanks... needed this

 

[ShadowLink84]

Kasai didn't you have an account here previously before 2008?

 

[adumbrodeus]

I dunno, I usually found F-Smash to be pretty safe in Melee. It was definitely better than it is now!

Not to mention that non-deteriorating attacks made F-airs a lot more killable. And N-airs didn't have ******** angles... And Shieldbreaker could edgeguard well.

Marth had an easier time killing in Melee. I have no doubt.

F-smash is not now, nor was it ever, safe on block.

Period.

F-smash can edgeguard at almost identical angles, d-tilt picks up the remaining angles. However recovery is stronger in this game, in general he's better at off-stage edgeguarding. But Sheildbreaker now has more unique uses due to having a different hitbox then f-smash.



Fairs can actually kill now period, their knockback has improved. They weren't meant to kill in melee anyway, they comboed, something which couldn't happen in brawl anyway. Nair is far better overall, it's angle is weird, but it builds damage decently and is quite safe.


Marth kills quite well in Brawl.

Actually when I meant grab range I was including both dash grab range and regular grab range.

*ahem*

Shield canceled grab, his short dash grab range isn't too relevant.

I heard somebody say that MK's sword extend a bit further than it appears.

It does... (I said it btw)

But that doesn't make it outrange f-smash. Only Marth's safe moves are outranged.

Afer seeing the Peach Match up line i saw something veeeeeeeeeeeeery wrong, and it is....how the hell does olimar has advantage over her?!?!?! She most definetly counters him and here are some videos of 2 pro smashers here in my country on a tournament match u will clearly see the disadvantage (****) that olimar has http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FapB78nPECc , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHNz6lndU4Y&feature=related (this one was b4 shadow moses was banned)

Just because one person is a good peach player, it doesn't mean that the match-up is even.

Skill comes first, always.

All 3 deaths were because the Olimar player made mistakes with the Tether in the first video, and Shadow Moses is banned.

Beyond the mistakes in the video, the Olimar player was in control for most of the match.

 

[ShadowLink84]

WHen I a saying range I am speaking in general. I wasn't speaking specifically about the Fsmash at the time.

And I tend to group dash grabbing with standing grabs. My error in doing so.


And actually adumbrodeus Peach does have the advantage against Olimar. Mainly because unlike other characters who eventually come down she is capable of remaining in the air for extended periods of time and her Dair breaks everything he has.
He is at a disadvantage against Peach.
I don't know the entire argument concerning this but it is solid.
I kinda wish Dangr was here to affirm or deconfirm this.

 

[adumbrodeus]

WHen I a saying range I am speaking in general. I wasn't speaking specifically about the Fsmash at the time.

Yeah, but range is overall not individual attacks, Marth does outrange MK, just not safely.

Really, for ground, those distinctions are all that matters, does who has superior range, who has superior safe range.

How many moves do this isn't really relevant to the discussion, because one safe poking move is enough.

And I tend to group dash grabbing with standing grabs. My error in doing so.

NP.

And actually adumbrodeus Peach does have the advantage against Olimar. Mainly because unlike other characters who eventually come down she is capable of remaining in the air for extended periods of time and her Dair breaks everything he has.
He is at a disadvantage against Peach.
I don't know the entire argument concerning this but it is solid.
I kinda wish Dangr was here to affirm or deconfirm this.

I'm not actually disagreeing the conclusion of the post, I didn't commit either way.


I'm just pointing out that you shouldn't try to use one or two matches in an attempt to prove advantage or disadvantage. Superior Skill can always overcome weak match-ups.

 

[Kasai]

Kasai didn't you have an account here previously before 2008?

Nope. I didn't really play competitively until brawl came out and that's when I heard about this site.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

WHen I a saying range I am speaking in general. I wasn't speaking specifically about the Fsmash at the time.

And I tend to group dash grabbing with standing grabs. My error in doing so.


And actually adumbrodeus Peach does have the advantage against Olimar. Mainly because unlike other characters who eventually come down she is capable of remaining in the air for extended periods of time and her Dair breaks everything he has.
He is at a disadvantage against Peach.
I don't know the entire argument concerning this but it is solid.
I kinda wish Dangr was here to affirm or deconfirm this.

I quoted it, and that's how it was first mentioned.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Yeah, but range is overall not individual attacks, Marth does outrange MK, just not safely.

Really, for ground, those distinctions are all that matters, does who has superior range, who has superior safe range.

How many moves do this isn't really relevant to the discussion, because one safe poking move is enough.

Ah okay, when I had sene what you posted I had misinterpreted. my apologies.

I'm not actually disagreeing the conclusion of the post, I didn't commit either way.

I'm just pointing out that you shouldn't try to use one or two matches in an attempt to prove advantage or disadvantage. Superior Skill can always overcome weak match-ups.

Oh yeah I agree with you on it. However I think there are a few more videos of Olimar users and peach users facing off and Peach having the advantge most of the matchup. With comparable skill level. Least thats what i think, kinda hard to tell at times @_@

 

[PhantomBrawler]

Are good Falcos even beating good Marth's?

I know Roy_R 3 stocked Sethlons Falco.

Anyway I think the match is even. All Falco really has is camping vs Marth and an easy combo at low damage.

Marth outdoes him every where else.

And Marth doesn't get ***** by projectiles.

Rest assured the only reason Marth doesn't get a 60/40 in this match is due to Falco's shine.

Otherwise lasers alone would not be enough to keep a good Marth at bay.

If Roy_R had 3 stocked Sethlon we would have heard about it. and since we havent....and there is no video...it didnt happen.

Now Im not trying to defend this match-up as a Falco adv. at the very best its a 55-45 falco. My better judgement would say its 50-50 though.

How can you talk down on an "easy combo at low damage" when you guys have the same thing only grab-> death?

marth does not out do falco in everything, im not going to argue this point because its a simple matter of a marth main arguing with a falco main. Im gonna think falco out does marth and youre gonna think marth outdoes falco. So im not gonna waste my finger strength.

This post is so wrong I surprised Emblem Lord didn't correct it.

You can't grab Marth after you D-throw, regardless of my %. I have this thing called Dolphin Slash. It gives me invincibility frames from 1-5. You can't grab me then. On frame 5, I pull out a huge, high knockback hitbox that will smack your hand away if you try. Same goes for that Dash Attack Cancel your trying to pull off.

Don't try that stuff. What you think is 40 damage against, is really 10 or so, and 13 against you from the Slash.

Now thats out of the way, time to dispell the biggest myth in Smash Bros.

Lasers do not screw up Marth. He's not big, he's not slow. He's amongst the fastest in the air. You know what that means? You can't camp me, because I'll always be able to catch up to you. Heck, if I do it right, I can do it without damage.

Then we talk about the Shine. The shine is good, I will give you that. Its probably the only reason this matchup isn't pure **** for Marth. You can whip that thing out, and it will slow me down. But its not the be all and end all of my approach. Marth has enough speed and range that if I shield that shine, your getting hit. Probably by something like my F-tilt, but its more likely my Dancing Blade, which will do anything between 15 to 20 damage.

The matchup isn't EASY for Marth. I have to work to get around lasers and Shines before I can lay down the hurt. However, its not easy for you either. Once I'm in your bubble, Falco has no decent ways to get Marth out of there, considering your normal close quarters strength -the Chain Grab-, is useless versus Marth. Its a neutral matchup.

Actually you can grab marth from 0%...like i said twice. This has been tested and run by many times, and the falco community knows that marth is grabbable twice. Its not EASY, and requires difficult timing but it is do-able. Also, as Lord pointed out...the dash-cancle is also in-escapable....which is 40% like i said....technically its 39% but i rounded up 1,so shoot me.

Also, you can very easily camp marth. Marth IS tall, especially when compared to characters like olimar,kirby,and MK. Also because of marths high short jump if timed right falco can hit marth with both lasers from his shdl as opposed to the normal one laser. You may say its not a big difference as its only 2 or 3 more percent, however it adds up.

With the Shine, I find it very hard that a good falco would shine at an inappropriate time, as i said in my previous statement....the falco must SPACE WELL to win this fight. and shining into a shield imo is not good spacing. No this match is not easy on either side, but i think with falcos projectiles and shine added with the 40% with the double grab and dlx means a slight falco adv.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Hylian stated that Roy_R 3 stocked Sethlon. Since Hylian is top 3 in Texas along with Sethlon and Roy_R, I don't think he would lie about something like this.

So, yeah I'm gonna say it did happen.

Marth outdoes Falco with better smashes, stronger attacks overall, better recovery, harder to gimp then Falco, heavier then Falco, Better edgeguarding then Falco, more knockback on attacks then Falco.

And of course he outranges him in close combat other then Falco's F-smash.

Falco has camping and his grab combos.

I'm not going by anything but data here.

And as a character Marth is superior to Falco. Marth is doing better in tournies, has a better move set backing him up AND he doesn't have terrible match-ups like Falco vs G&W for example.

Marth > Falco on the tier list.

In the match-up it's even. Once Falco does his grab combo and did that little damage what else is there besides camping?

Marth is tall? That's your reasoning?

Wow. Marth can dash under tall lasers. Shield one then jump. He can time his jump to jump in between both lasers in the SHDL.

Camping is all Falco has going for him. It's one thing that saves him.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Oh yeah I agree with you on it. However I think there are a few more videos of Olimar users and peach users facing off and Peach having the advantge most of the matchup. With comparable skill level. Least thats what i think, kinda hard to tell at times @_@

Really, that's a practical application of a few facts.

A few salient facts:


He can't spam Peach, her Peach Bomber reacts against Pikmen so she can use it continuously to go through pikman spamming.

You already mentioned this, but Dair, nuff said (though purple still works).

Her bair is evil against Olimar, outprioritizes EVERYTHING HE HAS, and she can jab off it before he can grab. Basically, this destroys all possibility of shield grabbing her.

And Turnips.... NO NOT THE TURNIPS! *curls up in fetal position, shivering* Lol, but seriously, they obliterate his recovery.



Yeah, the match-up is definitely in Peach's favor, I think it's a 80-20 because, while he can kill her rather early, Olimar has to be supremely good or lucky to hit her period.

 

[DanGR]

Here are some changes that need to be made. I'll give a very brief summary of each matchup.

-Marth>Olimar
Marth has a solid approach game and great edgeguarding against Olimar. Olimar has range, his grab, and solid kill moves. Olimar's overall inability to handle Marth's rather strong approach game gives Marth the slight advantage. The Olimar board has come to this conclusion. I'm sure EL would agree on this one as well.

-Olimar>Wolf
Wolf has to approach Olimar in the long run. I'll explain this in a minute. Wolf has his predictable moves, risky edgeguarding, and hard time killing Olimar. This is even more true against Olimar b/c Wolf's only effective moves in this matchup will suffer horrible decay.(dsmash and bair mostly) Olimar has an easy time racking b/c of his fall speed, and an easy time killing.

This is how you get wolf to approach: Pikmin can be safely pulled while wolf is spamming his laser. pull, shield, pull, shield works. Pikmin are thrown until yellows are next in line. yellows are thrown just in front of the laser to create a barrier that the laser can't pass. Olimar runs up close while the yellow retreats. Olimar inches foward while powershielding the laser until he's within grab range. Wolf is forced to approach or he'll get grabbed. Olimar's strong defense> Wolf's offense.

-Olimar>Squirtle, or at least neutral
I'm mostly wondering, not confirming. It doesn't make any sense why it's in squirtle's favor. He's very light, which makes for obscenely low percent kills. He's edge guarded easily and doesn't posses enough range on any of his attacks to threaten Olimar's ridiculous ground game. I'd like some input from a PT main before you change this to Olimar's favor though. I'm skeptical as it is.

about peach

I'm really not sure about this one. I embarrassed a couple peaches at my most recent tourney and it didn't seem like she could get inside of my range. She had the priority, but had nowhere to go with it. I played it very aggressively,(my usual style) not giving her room to plan. spaced grabs and fsmashes ruined her. She's light, which made for easy kills as well.

I can see rapid's argument though, and if he's very sure that it's at least 65:35 peach, I don't really have a counter argument against it, unless somehow my personal experience matters, which it shouldn't. I guess they weren't any good then if I had it easy eh rapid?

Edit: Sheik>Olimar as well. Shiek's nair, fair, and bair outprioritize ALL of Olimar's pikmin attacks except upair. Her nair>jab approach is unstoppable if spaced. There is NO current way to counter it. I'm willing to bet my life on that. Every option can be countered by another nair>jab. that one approach is why it's Sheik>Olimar. I'm not even joking. try it out yourself.

 

[PhantomBrawler]

Hylian stated that Roy_R 3 stocked Sethlon. Since Hylian is top 3 in Texas along with Sethlon and Roy_R, I don't think he would lie about something like this.

So, yeah I'm gonna say it did happen.

Marth outdoes Falco with better smashes, stronger attacks overall, better recovery, harder to gimp then Falco, heavier then Falco, Better edgeguarding then Falco, more knockback on attacks then Falco.

And of course he outranges him in close combat other then Falco's F-smash.

Falco has camping and his grab combos.

I'm not going by anything but data here.

And as a character Marth is superior to Falco. Marth is doing better in tournies, has a better move set backing him up AND he doesn't have terrible match-ups like Falco vs G&W for example.

Marth > Falco on the tier list.

In the match-up it's even. Once Falco does his grab combo and did that little damage what else is there besides camping?

Marth is tall? That's your reasoning?

Wow. Marth can dash under tall lasers. Shield one then jump. He can time his jump to jump in between both lasers in the SHDL.

Camping is all Falco has going for him. It's one thing that saves him.

If Hylian says it happened then ill believe it because i know of the relationship between him and sethlon. However most of everything else you said is wrong. When i play marth as falco, i frequently live to 160's. And an upsmash from falco kills marth in very low 100's. So saying he has better smashes and stronger smashes is false. The only way marth can kill early is by his meteor smash or by tipping. Id say that falcos recovery is far superior than marths considering his up-B probably goes almost as far as marths and his side B is 10x better. I might give you better gimp because falcos main recovery is horizontal than verticle but its a close one. Falco has a very good edgeguarding game with his shine and his fair. Ill put edgeguarding at equal as well. Knockback is questionable, like i said i live till 160 most of the time against GOOD marths. The only two things that i can really agree with you is that marht outranges falco and that falco has a better camp game.

As for tourney results, those are very early...and the metagame is still to develope. There are only a handfull of really good falcos, like Sethlon and SK92. When falco is used more and used better his tournament results will improve. Just look at japan, right now the only character that is beating falco is snake. Its far to early to start dishing out tier spots especially since the game has only been out 4 months. Of course i disagree that Marth>Falco on the tier list i believe it will be the other way around. Again, character bias.

As for match-ups Marth has his fair share of disadvantages including snake and metaknight. Falco really only has problems with G&W and Zelda, so your point there is also wrong.

Yes marth can dash under tall lasers,but a good falco is not going to be shooting tall lasers. They'll be shooting laser which can hit metaknight. So your point of him being able to dash under the lasers is also wrong. You can try and sheild the lasers and then jump but its really not going to do you good, as falco can change the spacing of his lasers at a moments notice.

All in all, id say about 85% of what you said about falco is wrong, which leads me to believe that you just dont know falco.

Or alternatively...you just have character bias.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth is at slight disadvantage vs MK and Snake.

Falco is at heavy disadvantage vs G&W and moderate disadvantage to MK.

Marth's attack overall do far more knockback then Falco's. This is fact.

Hit for hit Marth is stronger then Falco overall. This is fact.

Marth is floatier with greater aerial range making his edgeguarding better by a little.

Falco does not live to 160% against a good Marth. Fact.

Marth however CAN live till around 160% against good Falco's since Falco isn't a great killer.

I listed ways Marth can deal with lasers. I didn't say there was no way that Falco could adjust himself to what Marth is doing. I'm just saying that you make it sound like Marth gets shut down by lasers. Which isn't the case.

As far as recovery goes they are both pretty average actually. Falco has better horizontal recovery while Marth has better Vertical.

You say I'm biased? Some of the things you questioned don't even make sense. You questioned knockabck sir. There is no questioning one of the laws in the game. Marth has more knockback overall then Falco. It's a part of the game. That's not me pulling a fast one on you. That's me stating a fact about the game.

And lol@ Japan. Their metagame has never ever been on the same level as the US's smash scene. And going by thier vids that much hasn't changed.

My point stands. Lasers and cmaping aren't enough to give Falco any advantage in this match-up.

Who has better tilts? Who has the better approach? The better out of shield options? Better Defensive options. Better kill moves overall? All that goes to Marth. Falco's kill moves are a tad safer, but overall each one lacks something. F-smash lacks speed. D-smash lacks range and power. U-smash lacks range and only has decent speed and decent power.

Falco has camping and a decent moveset. Marth has a better moveset and the speed to deal with camping.

You say I don't know Falco?

Sounds like you don't know Marth.

 

[PhantomBrawler]

Falco has a slight disadvantage to MK and GW, not a heavy disadvantage...considering hylian just barely beat sethlon in a G&W Falco match best of 8.

Being floatier does not garauntee great edgeguarding, falcos fair can be used right of the stage to lower the opponent and shoot them out as well, leaving most character helpless. So id say its slightly towards falco, not marth when it comes to edgeguarding

Its obviously not a fact taht falco cant live to 160 against good marths. Considering I do it most of the time against good marths. And a marth will not live longer than 140 against a good falco considerign falco can kill with upsmash early, and with tools like his dash cancle and boost smash it should be easy to mind game a marth into being hit by one of them.

Better tilts, i would say falco. Better approach would also be falco considering he can stun with laser and "combo" with that.Ill give marth shield out options, but I will say its about even maybe slightly in marths advantage when it comes to the defensive. The only reason it would be slight is due to her counter.(yes her)

The way you are putting things makes it seem that all falco has is camping which isnt the case. Falco will be one of the best characters in this game ALONG with marth, no doubt they will both be high or higher than that even.

Japans metagame doesnt hold a candle to the US's after the game is out no....but since they have had the game a slight while longer there are still things they do that we dont. With the likes of falcos like Bombsoldier and Nyosuke I can assure you that falco's over there are just as good if not better than they are here. I believe that most of the falco community needs work, because of the major renovations falco went through in the change from melle to brawl. Marths moveset however was barely changed. I know of nerfs of marth, but the point stands that marth is still very similar and falco may as well be a different character almost.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Also just for the record let's get some kill percents for Marth's and Falco's Smashes on each other.

This is tested at the center of FD, with CPU's set to 9.

Falco's D-smash will kill Marth at 155%.
Falco's U-smash will kill Marth at 118%.
Falco's sweetspotted F-smash will kill Marth at 108%
Falco's unsweetspotted F-smash will kill Marth at 196%.

Let's compare damage while we are at shall we?

Falco's D-smash = 15%
Falco's U-smash = 14%
Falco's sweetspotted F-smash = 15%
Falco's unsweetspotted F-smash = 10%

Now for Marth.

F-smash kills Falco at 126% (Wow, Falco is really light)
D-smash kills Falco at 118%
U-smash kills Falco at about 114%

Tippered F-smash kills Falco at 70%
Tippered D-smash kills Falco at 99%
Tippered U-smash kills Falco at 114% (Knockback is the same, only damage increases)

F-smash = 14% and 19%
D-smash = 14% and 17%
U-smash = 18% and 21%

So this right here gives you a good idea as to how long Marth and Falco will be living vs one another.

Falco would be lucky to hit 140%

Marth could definitely hit 160% though since Falco's smashes have less range then his and he can outspace him.

So of you're living to 160% vs these so-called good Marths, then guess what?

They aren't that good.

lol@calling Marth her. That's ok though. Hate all you want. Marth is still doing better in tourney and still has better match-ups. You haven't given me anything substantial. Just pulled stuff out of nowhere.

As far as moveset goes for their A moves Falco has a better Dair and a better U-tilt and that's pretty much it. Marth has a better everything else. How does Falco have better tilts? Marth's f-tilt is better. More range and a bit more power. And Marth DEFINITELY has the better D-tilt. There is no argument there. Marth's has more range, speed, and power AND it links into combos. It's also one of the best pokes in the game. The only reason Falco has a slightly better approach is because of the lasers. Overall though Marth has more options.

Falco's Fair for edge guarding? Are you serious? More like bair my friend. You SURE you know Falco? His fair is a multihit move and as such is very susceptible to repeated Smash DI to get out. At the very least I have more then enough time to just hold my analog up and towards the stage so I don't get knocked out really far.

Try again sir.

Also don't even mention "mindgaming" in match-up discussion. They are intangible. They cannot be seen or measured or touched. We are here to debate with data and evidence backing us up. Not say "but Falco has mindgames with his boost smash". Which by the way leaves him completely open on block, since both his dash attack and his U-smash or unsafe on block.

Falco isn't all camping. But against Marth that is what he is reduced to thanks to Marths speed and range.

Falco and Marth are already two of the best in the game. Marth is just a tiny bit better that's all. And they go even in the match.

 

[Dyxnar14]

Falco=Marth? that may be true but in my opinion, Falco has a slight advantage over marth for his camping and his projectiles since falco has 2 of the best projectiles in the game. of course any one of them are still great characters

 

[ROOOOY!]

Falco=Marth? that may be true but in my opinion, Falco has a slight advantage over marth for his camping and his projectiles since falco has 2 of the best projectiles in the game. of course any one of them are still great characters

I don't even main Marth, but I know that Marth doesn't have a problem with Falco's laser. He's fast, in the air and on the ground, so closing the gap to stop projectile spam wouldn't be hard, his reflector can't do much to halt Marth's approach. I'd probably give this match up a neutral, but meh.

Also, a lot of Sonic's matchup's are so wrong, but I don't even know if this chart's being updated anymore. Bowser is one of Sonic's easiest match ups, yet it's a neutral?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Oh... and, most marth mains I'v talked too say that they'd MUCH rather fight vs. shiek than Vs. Zelda any day... so, why is shiek considered neutral but Zelda bad? IT should be bad for both IMO

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth has 6/4 advantage on both as far as I can tell.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Marth has 6/4 advantage on both as far as I can tell.

I agree. I personaly do better with Zelda... so I'd rather be her, but, I know some shiek mains are really good.

He;s not as bad as game and watch..
Even so... I have a lot of trouble with marth >_<

Because, at least with G&W, I've started to get better results by pulling out the tandem strategy.

 

[GracieBarraJitsu]

WARIO VS Diddy:

Yes, I would say wario wins this. This is because, Diddy is very reliant on his pressure game, and the key to his pressure game as his bannanas, or at least one of his important components. Just by the fact that wario is able to eat bananas with neutral B, this takes lots out of his game.

Diddy is a light character, and wario has the speed, and weight, to overcome what diddy can do to him.


Just the way I see it.

 

[SlashTalon]

If Roy_R had 3 stocked Sethlon we would have heard about it. and since we havent....and there is no video...it didnt happen.

Now Im not trying to defend this match-up as a Falco adv. at the very best its a 55-45 falco. My better judgement would say its 50-50 though.

How can you talk down on an "easy combo at low damage" when you guys have the same thing only grab-> death?

marth does not out do falco in everything, im not going to argue this point because its a simple matter of a marth main arguing with a falco main. Im gonna think falco out does marth and youre gonna think marth outdoes falco. So im not gonna waste my finger strength.





Actually you can grab marth from 0%...like i said twice. This has been tested and run by many times, and the falco community knows that marth is grabbable twice. Its not EASY, and requires difficult timing but it is do-able. Also, as Lord pointed out...the dash-cancle is also in-escapable....which is 40% like i said....technically its 39% but i rounded up 1,so shoot me.

Also, you can very easily camp marth. Marth IS tall, especially when compared to characters like olimar,kirby,and MK. Also because of marths high short jump if timed right falco can hit marth with both lasers from his shdl as opposed to the normal one laser. You may say its not a big difference as its only 2 or 3 more percent, however it adds up.

With the Shine, I find it very hard that a good falco would shine at an inappropriate time, as i said in my previous statement....the falco must SPACE WELL to win this fight. and shining into a shield imo is not good spacing. No this match is not easy on either side, but i think with falcos projectiles and shine added with the 40% with the double grab and dlx means a slight falco adv.

Hylian stated that Roy_R 3 stocked Sethlon. Since Hylian is top 3 in Texas along with Sethlon and Roy_R, I don't think he would lie about something like this.

So, yeah I'm gonna say it did happen.

Marth outdoes Falco with better smashes, stronger attacks overall, better recovery, harder to gimp then Falco, heavier then Falco, Better edgeguarding then Falco, more knockback on attacks then Falco.

And of course he outranges him in close combat other then Falco's F-smash.

Falco has camping and his grab combos.

I'm not going by anything but data here.

And as a character Marth is superior to Falco. Marth is doing better in tournies, has a better move set backing him up AND he doesn't have terrible match-ups like Falco vs G&W for example.

Marth > Falco on the tier list.

In the match-up it's even. Once Falco does his grab combo and did that little damage what else is there besides camping?

Marth is tall? That's your reasoning?

Wow. Marth can dash under tall lasers. Shield one then jump. He can time his jump to jump in between both lasers in the SHDL.

Camping is all Falco has going for him. It's one thing that saves him.

Marth is at slight disadvantage vs MK and Snake.

Falco is at heavy disadvantage vs G&W and moderate disadvantage to MK.

Marth's attack overall do far more knockback then Falco's. This is fact.

Hit for hit Marth is stronger then Falco overall. This is fact.

Marth is floatier with greater aerial range making his edgeguarding better by a little.

Falco does not live to 160% against a good Marth. Fact.

Marth however CAN live till around 160% against good Falco's since Falco isn't a great killer.

I listed ways Marth can deal with lasers. I didn't say there was no way that Falco could adjust himself to what Marth is doing. I'm just saying that you make it sound like Marth gets shut down by lasers. Which isn't the case.

As far as recovery goes they are both pretty average actually. Falco has better horizontal recovery while Marth has better Vertical.

You say I'm biased? Some of the things you questioned don't even make sense. You questioned knockabck sir. There is no questioning one of the laws in the game. Marth has more knockback overall then Falco. It's a part of the game. That's not me pulling a fast one on you. That's me stating a fact about the game.

And lol@ Japan. Their metagame has never ever been on the same level as the US's smash scene. And going by thier vids that much hasn't changed.

My point stands. Lasers and cmaping aren't enough to give Falco any advantage in this match-up.

Who has better tilts? Who has the better approach? The better out of shield options? Better Defensive options. Better kill moves overall? All that goes to Marth. Falco's kill moves are a tad safer, but overall each one lacks something. F-smash lacks speed. D-smash lacks range and power. U-smash lacks range and only has decent speed and decent power.

Falco has camping and a decent moveset. Marth has a better moveset and the speed to deal with camping.

You say I don't know Falco?

Sounds like you don't know Marth.

Also just for the record let's get some kill percents for Marth's and Falco's Smashes on each other.

This is tested at the center of FD, with CPU's set to 9.

Falco's D-smash will kill Marth at 155%.
Falco's U-smash will kill Marth at 118%.
Falco's sweetspotted F-smash will kill Marth at 108%
Falco's unsweetspotted F-smash will kill Marth at 196%.

Let's compare damage while we are at shall we?

Falco's D-smash = 15%
Falco's U-smash = 14%
Falco's sweetspotted F-smash = 15%
Falco's unsweetspotted F-smash = 10%

Now for Marth.

F-smash kills Falco at 126% (Wow, Falco is really light)
D-smash kills Falco at 118%
U-smash kills Falco at about 114%

Tippered F-smash kills Falco at 70%
Tippered D-smash kills Falco at 99%
Tippered U-smash kills Falco at 114% (Knockback is the same, only damage increases)

F-smash = 14% and 19%
D-smash = 14% and 17%
U-smash = 18% and 21%

So this right here gives you a good idea as to how long Marth and Falco will be living vs one another.

Falco would be lucky to hit 140%

Marth could definitely hit 160% though since Falco's smashes have less range then his and he can outspace him.

So of you're living to 160% vs these so-called good Marths, then guess what?

They aren't that good.

lol@calling Marth her. That's ok though. Hate all you want. Marth is still doing better in tourney and still has better match-ups. You haven't given me anything substantial. Just pulled stuff out of nowhere.

As far as moveset goes for their A moves Falco has a better Dair and a better U-tilt and that's pretty much it. Marth has a better everything else. How does Falco have better tilts? Marth's f-tilt is better. More range and a bit more power. And Marth DEFINITELY has the better D-tilt. There is no argument there. Marth's has more range, speed, and power AND it links into combos. It's also one of the best pokes in the game. The only reason Falco has a slightly better approach is because of the lasers. Overall though Marth has more options.

Falco's Fair for edge guarding? Are you serious? More like bair my friend. You SURE you know Falco? His fair is a multihit move and as such is very susceptible to repeated Smash DI to get out. At the very least I have more then enough time to just hold my analog up and towards the stage so I don't get knocked out really far.

Try again sir.

Also don't even mention "mindgaming" in match-up discussion. They are intangible. They cannot be seen or measured or touched. We are here to debate with data and evidence backing us up. Not say "but Falco has mindgames with his boost smash". Which by the way leaves him completely open on block, since both his dash attack and his U-smash or unsafe on block.

Falco isn't all camping. But against Marth that is what he is reduced to thanks to Marths speed and range.

Falco and Marth are already two of the best in the game. Marth is just a tiny bit better that's all. And they go even in the match.

Okay after reading through this I really believe that you guys have not faced a good Marth.

Take away skill and Emblem Lord is Right: Marths moveset is better (damage/knockback wise) The fact Marth has a Tip means Falco can die at like 80%. Staying close range to Marth is stupid as his attacks are ridiculously fast, yet he is a quick character who can make it through even a perfect laser spam.

0-death is a big deal BTW

I maintain that this match up is either even-or 6-4 Marths advantage.

I love Falco, I hate Marth, I just think it's easier to stay alive as Marth than it is Falco.
In a match between equal skill the Falco's Marth game has to be played differently than any other character matchup.

Falco guys, I urge you to go find a skilled Marth

 

[Steeler]

ivysaur has a massive advantage against dk, full hop double razor leaf pressures dk like crazy, ivy's grab range is very similar to dk's, and ivy pokes into dk's range with bair, which combos/leads into ftilt/dtilt/fsmash. AND up close, shield into bullet seed or nair and then bs ***** dk for at least 40%.

charizard has at LEAST a neutral, perhaps slight advantage due to the fact that its grab range is larger than dk's, flamethrower ****s dk for almost as much damage as bullet seed and rock smash at least clanks with almost every attack dk has and can potentially still hit with the shards.

dk will be hard pressed to approach a charizard due to its terrific grab range. double bairs won't work here.

both ivy and zard have great range on their attacks, so dk's range isn't much of an advantage here. ivy outranges for sure, zard may be slightly outranged, but he has his grab/flamethrower/rock smash to help deal with that.

this chart is bull**** anyway, too cluttered with posts for the guy to even be able to edit or update with everything. if he wants to edit with the info that is. too often something was accepted without adequately hearing both sides of the argument. its best to just take the individual charts from each character discussion board and take it from there.

 

[cutter]

this chart is bull**** anyway, too cluttered with posts for the guy to even be able to edit or update with everything. if he wants to edit with the info that is. too often something was accepted without adequately hearing both sides of the argument. its best to just take the individual charts from each character discussion board and take it from there.

There were always be bias in matchup charts for each specific character since a person(s) who main that character aren't going to make him look bad. Then you go back to arguing the matchups all over again.

 

[BentoBox]

Soooo toon link has as many good matchups as snake, mk and gw. And TL happens to be a small gw counter....

For real?

Why is he so unpopular?

 

[ShadowLink84]

Hmm ima speak with ivaneva if possible I want him to make a new topic but keep the chart butmake it a weekly discussion similar to that of AIB since its more orderly, and would allow him time to update things more easily.

Anyone in agreement?

 

[cutter]

Soooo toon link has as many good matchups as snake, mk and gw. And TL happens to be a small gw counter....

For real?

Why is he so unpopular?

Most of the chart was constructed shortly after the US release, when everybody was high on Toon Link and Pit.

@ Shadowlink: That could be more orderly, but it would take a ridiculous amount of time. Plus, for some controversial matchups there will always be divided, adamant opinions.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Yes but it wouldn't take as long as 50 people talking about 100 different matchups all at once.

Time is a negligible factor considering the evolving metagame.

 

[PhantomBrawler]

Also just for the record let's get some kill percents for Marth's and Falco's Smashes on each other.

This is tested at the center of FD, with CPU's set to 9.

Falco's D-smash will kill Marth at 155%.
Falco's U-smash will kill Marth at 118%.
Falco's sweetspotted F-smash will kill Marth at 108%
Falco's unsweetspotted F-smash will kill Marth at 196%.

Let's compare damage while we are at shall we?

Falco's D-smash = 15%
Falco's U-smash = 14%
Falco's sweetspotted F-smash = 15%
Falco's unsweetspotted F-smash = 10%

Now for Marth.

F-smash kills Falco at 126% (Wow, Falco is really light)
D-smash kills Falco at 118%
U-smash kills Falco at about 114%

Tippered F-smash kills Falco at 70%
Tippered D-smash kills Falco at 99%
Tippered U-smash kills Falco at 114% (Knockback is the same, only damage increases)

F-smash = 14% and 19%
D-smash = 14% and 17%
U-smash = 18% and 21%

So this right here gives you a good idea as to how long Marth and Falco will be living vs one another.

Falco would be lucky to hit 140%

Marth could definitely hit 160% though since Falco's smashes have less range then his and he can outspace him.

So of you're living to 160% vs these so-called good Marths, then guess what?

They aren't that good.

lol@calling Marth her. That's ok though. Hate all you want. Marth is still doing better in tourney and still has better match-ups. You haven't given me anything substantial. Just pulled stuff out of nowhere.

As far as moveset goes for their A moves Falco has a better Dair and a better U-tilt and that's pretty much it. Marth has a better everything else. How does Falco have better tilts? Marth's f-tilt is better. More range and a bit more power. And Marth DEFINITELY has the better D-tilt. There is no argument there. Marth's has more range, speed, and power AND it links into combos. It's also one of the best pokes in the game. The only reason Falco has a slightly better approach is because of the lasers. Overall though Marth has more options.

Falco's Fair for edge guarding? Are you serious? More like bair my friend. You SURE you know Falco? His fair is a multihit move and as such is very susceptible to repeated Smash DI to get out. At the very least I have more then enough time to just hold my analog up and towards the stage so I don't get knocked out really far.

Try again sir.

Also don't even mention "mindgaming" in match-up discussion. They are intangible. They cannot be seen or measured or touched. We are here to debate with data and evidence backing us up. Not say "but Falco has mindgames with his boost smash". Which by the way leaves him completely open on block, since both his dash attack and his U-smash or unsafe on block.

Falco isn't all camping. But against Marth that is what he is reduced to thanks to Marths speed and range.

Falco and Marth are already two of the best in the game. Marth is just a tiny bit better that's all. And they go even in the match.

I find it funny that you said after falco was killed at 126% by marth's fsmash that he was light, when marth was killed by Falcos Fsmash at 108%.

Dont tell me i dont know falco, fair is a very viable move in terms of edgeguarding. Bair will only do so much at low percentages. If you dont believe me check the thread on the falco board.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xEXOhNe1AQ

The point of the boost smash and DLX comment was that falco has many options to hit marth with an upsmash which you clearly indicated will kill her at 118%.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ok, read my post again.

Falco's SWEETSPOTTED f-smash kills Marth at 108%

Marth's UNSWEETSPOTTED f-smash kills Falco at 126%

Marth's non-tipper F-smash has crap knockback. So for it to kill that low shows that Falco is pretty light and that Marth really won't have trouble killing him since that's his worst kill move.

So, what exactly are you trying to show by your last post?

That you can't read?

Fair is a Multi hit move and as such is vulnerable to repeated Smash DI. I already explained this and Bair is a much better aerial and a better edgeguarding tool, because Falco can do falling Bairs and come back up to grab the ledge. It's more versatile then Fair.

Also the DLX hit cancel won't work at killing percents. The dash attack will send Marth too far.

And if you dash attack from farther away then normal a good Marth will know you intend to U-smash and they will just shield.

lol.

A good Falco has already backed me up anyway. He even asked me to do a write-up about the match in the Falco boards.

I think I'm done here. You clearly have no real reasoning behind your claims.

I just gave factual evidence proving that Marth will live longer and kill sooner and the best you could do was say something that made no sense and you made yourself look foolish in the process.

For the record...

Marth's tippered F-smash kills Falco at 70% with no DI.

Yeah. Don't get tippered Falco lol.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Yes but it wouldn't take as long as 50 people talking about 100 different matchups all at once.

Time is a negligible factor considering the evolving metagame.

If I may add to your point.

There is no bloody rush to finish this in the first place, as inaccurate info is worse than slow coming accurate information.

 

[Niko_K]

I completely disagree with peach having disadvantages against Fox and Falco, they are VERY easily combo'd and just about all of peaches moves outrange and out prioritize both of them.

Fox can be combo'd up to 60 easily and falco up for 50. Reconsider please, I don't think peach only has 4 advantage match ups out of 39..

 

[adumbrodeus]

I find it funny that you said after falco was killed at 126% by marth's fsmash that he was light, when marth was killed by Falcos Fsmash at 108%.

LOL

Reread EL's post.

This is tested at the center of FD, with CPU's set to 9.

Falco's D-smash will kill Marth at 155%.
Falco's U-smash will kill Marth at 118%.
Falco's sweetspotted F-smash will kill Marth at 108%
Falco's unsweetspotted F-smash will kill Marth at 196%.

Let's compare damage while we are at shall we?

Falco's D-smash = 15%
Falco's U-smash = 14%
Falco's sweetspotted F-smash = 15%
Falco's unsweetspotted F-smash = 10%

Now for Marth.

F-smash kills Falco at 126% (Wow, Falco is really light)
D-smash kills Falco at 118%
U-smash kills Falco at about 114%

Tippered F-smash kills Falco at 70%
Tippered D-smash kills Falco at 99%
Tippered U-smash kills Falco at 114% (Knockback is the same, only damage increases)

F-smash = 14% and 19%
D-smash = 14% and 17%
U-smash = 18% and 21%

Falco's F-smash normally kills Marth at 196. This is compared to Marth's f-smash which under the same conditions, kills at 126.

It can kill at 108... but under the same conditions Marth will kill at... 70.

The point of the boost smash and DLX comment was that falco has many options to hit marth with an upsmash which you clearly indicated will kill her at 118%.

So tempted to use a diss... I'll settle for pointing out that Marth isn't a her.

Regardless, it's very unsafe and has an easy to see and counter approach.

 

[gantrain05]

no no no, marth is definately a her. but yeah, marth pwns falco, even i'll admit that, and i hate marth.

 

[Ulevo]

For the record, not sure if this has been mentioned or not, but even if Marth manages to grab Falco at 0% or near 0%, and cannot make it to the ledge for a guaranteed Dair, Marth deals up to 27%+ damage via FThrow - FThrow - Tipped FSmash, and it cannot be DI'd out of.

Nothing major, just something to keep in mind.

 

[adumbrodeus]

no no no, marth is definately a her. but yeah, marth pwns falco, even i'll admit that, and i hate marth.

This thread ends all questions of Marth's manliness.

He is more manly then all of us combined, but for fear of causing the apocalypse, he must suppress it.

For the record, not sure if this has been mentioned or not, but even if Marth manages to grab Falco at 0% or near 0%, and cannot make it to the ledge for a guaranteed Dair, Marth deals up to 27%+ damage via FThrow - FThrow - Tipped FSmash, and it cannot be DI'd out of.

Nothing major, just something to keep in mind.

Well considering that the Falcos seem to be hanging their hopes on that 39% possible opening damage due to their chain... I think it's more then sufficent.

Marth has a better early game, just more erratic, either 27% or death.

 

[∫unk]

I find it funny that you said after falco was killed at 126% by marth's fsmash that he was light, when marth was killed by Falcos Fsmash at 108%.

Dont tell me i dont know falco, fair is a very viable move in terms of edgeguarding. Bair will only do so much at low percentages. If you dont believe me check the thread on the falco board.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xEXOhNe1AQ

The point of the boost smash and DLX comment was that falco has many options to hit marth with an upsmash which you clearly indicated will kill her at 118%.

lmao I've seen that video before and thought it was dumb but now you're using it as part of your argument... you realize how unfeasible that situation is.

if the opponent was anyone with a decent recovery (aka NOT WOLF) the Falco would have been gimped in that situation. and at that point it would have been better to d-air anyways since the wolf was a noob and was going to get hit regardless.

tip f-smash kills Falco way earlier than sweetspot f-smash for falco... I will admit sweetspot f-smash on Falco is easier than tip f-smash on Marth though.

i play against a **** good falco and i'll say this.. falco screws up recovery more often than marth scres up recovery, and gets gimped more often.

 

[Smashbros_7]

Again, why does Shiek have an advantage on Ness? As well as Fox (3rd-4th lightest character in the game
susceptable to Ness back throw) DK (I say 50-50 NEUTRAL, DK has the range and power, but Ness B sticked PKF is great on DK, which leads to a free Fsmash) Falco 50-50 again , Falco doesn't CG Ness well.

 

[Dyxnar14]

Making Marth and Falco a Neutral match up wouldnt be a bad idea. though its either one has a small advantage or even match up