Brawl Character Match-Up chart

[Dpete]

The weekly reviews on the Kirby forums are now taking place. Week #1 is King Dedede; feel free to drop by and contribute to our rankings so we get the most unbiased rankings possible~

Link: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=4842628#post4842628

 

[Smashbros_7]

Wario should have more disadvantages.

Basically, when a tall character holds Wario (so his feet don't touch the ground) if he breaks out, he breaks out close to the opponent, enough for a free smash or tilt.

Marth's grab release tipper Fsmash. disadvantage

Ganondorfs Fsmash. Wario still has the advantage, but it's smaller

Yoshi Infinite on Wario. disadvantage
Wario will be harder to grab, but this definetely affects his gameplay. I mean your constantly trying not to get grabbed.

Peach has her upsmash. undecided

ZSS has her SH-UAIR. undecided

DK has his Upsmash and downsmash. Disadvantage

Bowser has his upsmash. Still has the advantage

Samus has her Upsmash

DDD has his Up smash, up tilt. And linked with his CG makes the matchup broken. Big disadvantage

Those are of the top of my head.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

Dont forget Captain Falcon he has a big advantage over Olimar

No.

I can't argue against most of your information but Olimar does have a small disadvantage to Pikachu's Electricty spam and getting caught by too many of Pikachu's grabs and longer ranged attacks destroy Pikmin unless they are Yellow

Read the matchup thread on the Olimar board, if you want to see the full argument as to why it's even.

 

[S2]

As was mentioned before, the Zelda board has a matchup topic. We'd appreciate if the link was put in the original post.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=180566

It's only a day old, but getting popular fast there. We are discussing matchup placements and specific characters one by one.

 

[IvanEva]

And what's this about Olimar walking through fire? I just tried it with all of Olimar's costumes and I didn't see him walking through fire.

That was a joke.

In the Gamecube game Pikmin 2, after you acquire a certain item Olimar/Louie/president's suit becomes resistant to fire. In Pikmin 2. Olimar has the advantage over Charizard for, obviously, different reasons. My apologies for confusing some people. I thought the 'Pikmin 2' part made it obvious...

By the way, I'm back to working on the chart again.

 

[gunterrsmash01]

Biggest flaw in this chart.

Marth < Falco

HAHAHHA what? Marth ***** falco. he has a 0 - death on falco and can escape falcos chaingrab with up b.

Marth >>>>>> Falco DEFINETLY

 

[Emblem Lord]

I wouldn't say he ***** him, but it looks like Marth has slight advantage on him.

 

[DanGR]

I'd like to submit Marth>Olimar. It's slight, but its still there. that's what the Olimar boards agreed on. I'm sure EL would agree as well.

 

[mood4food77]

diddy>DK

PREPOSTEROUS!

dk's range is too much for diddy, dk is not that much slower than diddy, and dk makes better use of the bananas than diddy does

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

How slight? I'd say that you need at least a 6:4 advantage for it to show as one

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

If you're referring to Marth vs. Olimar, they mean a 6-4 matchup when they say slight.

 

[Mega-Japan]

Zelda > Ice Climbers

Most of Zelda's attacks holds both Ice Climber as if it was no one's business, obviously her USmash and FSmash.

When edge-guarding, Zelda can easily Lightning Meteor either of the Ice Climbers, perhaps even both as their recovery is very predictable and they are, horizontally wise, a large target.

Ice Shots are nothing to Zelda and Blizzard does absolutely nothing to Zelda's Naryu's Love while also countering with some damage.

Zelda's DSmash is great against them and her UAir is effective on them when trying to KO from below.


Zelda >> King Dedede

I really can not think of anything that could give Dedede some beneficial advantage against Zelda. Din's Fire go through Waddle Dees, and whatever Dedede throws at her and hits him while she's laughing from a distance.

Zelda can reflect his stuff, most noticeably his Gorodos as they can be seen from a distance and if good, even at midrange.

Zelda's attacks are too fast for Dedede's moves to catch up, specially his killing moves, like all of his smashes.

His a big target, making him very easy to Lightning Kick and even Lightning Meteor.

A good Zelda can easily UAir, Lightning Kick or Lightning Meteor during his recovery for finisher.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Zelda > Ice Climbers

Most of Zelda's attacks holds both Ice Climber as if it was no one's business, obviously her USmash and FSmash.

When edge-guarding, Zelda can easily Lightning Meteor either of the Ice Climbers, perhaps even both as their recovery is very predictable and they are, horizontally wise, a large target.

Ice Shots are nothing to Zelda and Blizzard does absolutely nothing to Zelda's Naryu's Love while also countering with some damage.

Zelda's DSmash is great against them and her UAir is effective on them when trying to KO from below.

You forgot one thing, d-tilt lock works exceptionally well on them.

Other then that, good.

 

[Steeler]

ivysaur>>squirtle
squirtle=charizard
charizard>ivysaur

charizard>mk
ivysaur<mk
squirtle< or = mk

squirtle<<gw
ivysaur<gw
charizard< or = gw

squirtle<<marth
ivysaur<marth
charizard<marth

threads

1. Pokemon Trainer! The most complex ditto match EVER.
2. Metaknight...
3. Mr. Gay Men Watch!
4. Marth.

 

[Anth0ny]

Recently a Marth player just beat two good MK players in tournament, just this past Saturday. He got 4th place and went all Marth.

So don't give me that sad face **** Anthony.

Be grateful for that 4/6. There are characters in this game that stand no chance of beating MK.

Marth is lucky.

A Marth player. While around the world Marths are still getting beaten soundly by MK's

Whatever, I did overexagerate by putting that sadface, but MK's just piss me off. At least 50% of the Brawlers in my area consist of MK's, and they're the best of this area. There's just no getting past them. Bah, I'm just making up excuses now. I should be greatful that it's only 4:6 for Marth.

Now, onto the match up chart. As mentioned above, Marth has an advantage over Falco (6:4 I'd say), or it's even at least. Also, Marth and R.O.B are even IMO. Please don't think I'm a Marth fanboy that just wants to eliminate all bad matchups, I'm not the only one who agrees with the above two matchups.

Also, why the hell is MK a bad matchup against Bowser? I'm no expert on the two, but it is MK we're talking about here.

 

[adumbrodeus]

ivysaur>>squirtle
squirtle=charizard
charizard>ivysaur

charizard>mk
ivysaur<mk
squirtle< or = mk

squirtle<<gw
ivysaur<gw
charizard< or = gw

squirtle<<marth
ivysaur<marth
charizard<marth

threads

1. Pokemon Trainer! The most complex ditto match EVER.
2. Metaknight...
3. Mr. Gay Men Watch!
4. Marth.

Two notes...

The Marth match-up ended up with a probable 45-55 for Charizard. I'm not sure whether the chart would register that as a neutral or advantage so I wanted to note that.


Also, this got brought up during the Marth discussion, but it seemed that the reason that Charizard got the advantage over MK was because it was believed he had a range edge with his safe attacks.

During the course of the Marth discussion, it was confirmed that Marth's ftilt outranges Charizard's f-tilt and d-tilt. Since it was recently discovered that MK's dtilt outranges Marth's f-tilt and dtilt, MK does in fact outrange Charizard, with the exception of the punishable f-smash. More then any other match-up here, this one needs to be looked over again.

A Marth player. While around the world Marths are still getting beaten soundly by MK's

Whatever, I did overexagerate by putting that sadface, but MK's just piss me off. At least 50% of the Brawlers in my area consist of MK's, and they're the best of this area. There's just no getting past them. Bah, I'm just making up excuses now. I should be greatful that it's only 4:6 for Marth.

I feel you man... this REALLY sucks. Just shows how such a tiny difference makes such a big difference overall.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Zelda >> King Dedede

I really can not think of anything that could give Dedede some beneficial advantage against Zelda. Din's Fire go through Waddle Dees, and whatever Dedede throws at her and hits him while she's laughing from a distance.

Zelda can reflect his stuff, most noticeably his Gorodos as they can be seen from a distance and if good, even at midrange.

Zelda's attacks are too fast for Dedede's moves to catch up, specially his killing moves, like all of his smashes.

His a big target, making him very easy to Lightning Kick and even Lightning Meteor.

A good Zelda can easily UAir, Lightning Kick or Lightning Meteor during his recovery for finisher.

Just as long as you keep a cool head and play your game... he's putty in your hands... you simply counter his everything ehile he's got virtually nothing on you.

 

[gantrain05]

A Marth player. While around the world Marths are still getting beaten soundly by MK's

Whatever, I did overexagerate by putting that sadface, but MK's just piss me off. At least 50% of the Brawlers in my area consist of MK's, and they're the best of this area. There's just no getting past them. Bah, I'm just making up excuses now. I should be greatful that it's only 4:6 for Marth.

Now, onto the match up chart. As mentioned above, Marth has an advantage over Falco (6:4 I'd say), or it's even at least. Also, Marth and R.O.B are even IMO. Please don't think I'm a Marth fanboy that just wants to eliminate all bad matchups, I'm not the only one who agrees with the above two matchups.

Also, why the hell is MK a bad matchup against Bowser? I'm no expert on the two, but it is MK we're talking about here.

honestly, i dont know why MK is bad vs bowser, but as a bowser secondary i can only speculate that its because of bowsers great tilts, firebreath, bowsercide, and his ability to kill metaknight at probably less than 50% lol.

 

[DanGR]

mega-japan, she's not a DDD counter. She might have the advantage, but it's not a large one. everything you mentioned, except the thing about the waddles, can be said about any large character. that doesn't make her a counter.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

mega-japan, she's not a DDD counter. She might have the advantage, but it's not a large one. everything you mentioned, except the thing about the waddles, can be said about any large character. that doesn't make her a counter.

DDD, unlike other large characters, is often airborne. making him VERY suseptable to lighting kicks.

He also tends to rely on aerial approaches... making him VERY susceptible to her Upsmash.

H can't outcamp her with waddle dees like he can most people because Din's >>> waddle dees.

His recovery... THAT'S the big thing. Other big charcters don't have the same predicatbale, vulnerable recovery that he does.... seriously... as long as Zelda's not in a compramising position, she should be able to punish a recovering DDD with fair, bair, uair, Usmash, Utitl, Fsmash or shield grab EVERY time.

Also, DDD has rather poor attack speed meaning even if he's inside of Din's fire's most effective range, Zelda still ahs the advantage due to having strong attacks that ar MUCH quicker.

DDD is entirely too large to DI out of her smashes often, if at all.

DDD can't effectively edgehog her due to his poor airspeed and her recovery's ability to teleport.

DDD's normally very reliable bair just gets outprioritized by Usmash, utilt or a well times lightning kick.

DDD cannot chain grab zelda.



Seriously... what does DDD have going for him at ALL here?

 

[adumbrodeus]

mega-japan, she's not a DDD counter. She might have the advantage, but it's not a large one. everything you mentioned, except the thing about the waddles, can be said about any large character. that doesn't make her a counter.

Didn't we do this already?

DDD is outcamped so he must approach, and he lacks safe options. His recovery also DIES to Zelda, and Teleportion makes his wall of pain near useless.



You'll also notice that Zelda does tend to be good against large characters.

DDD's normally very reliable bair just gets outprioritized by Usmash, utilt or a well times lightning kick.

Are you sure that this is possible? The lightning kick I mean.

I did some testing on this and while you can sweetspot on DDD's bair, specifically on the toe, both attacks hit. Which I'll generally take, but still.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Didn't we do this already?

DDD is outcamped so he must approach, and he lacks safe options. His recovery also DIES to Zelda, and Teleportion makes his wall of pain near useless.



You'll also notice that Zelda does tend to be good against large characters.




Are you sure that this is possible? The lightning kick I mean.

I did some testing on this and while you can sweetspot on DDD's bair, specifically on the toe, both attacks hit. Which I'll generally take, but still.

yeah.. it works... you CAN get it to hit without DD hitting you, but th reverse is also true, so generally thy both conncect which is NOT a good thing for DDD

 

[adumbrodeus]

yeah.. it works... you CAN get it to hit without DD hitting you, but th reverse is also true, so generally thy both conncect which is NOT a good thing for DDD

Ok, nice to know, now I just need to how to do that regularly.

Very cool, thanx.

Still, the fact that they both can do that evens it out, so neither and advantage or disadvantage relative to both of them being hit for either char.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Ok, nice to know, now I just need to how to do that regularly.

Very cool, thanx.

Still, the fact that they both can do that evens it out, so neither and advantage or disadvantage relative to both of them being hit for either char.

IDK... lightning kicks are MAD powerful...

on a different point... let's look at what makes DDD a good character
- he's heavy
- he's Strong
- He's got a good recovery
- He has a spammy projectile that counters most other porjectiles
- He has good range
- He's frustrating to approach.
- Has aWoP
- Has a Chain grab


... now let's look at what zelda has to say about each point in turn
-So he's heavy? This is still true Vs. Zelda... but the fact that she can compete with IKE for total number of kill moves and that he's a giant, wobbling target makes this advantage one that DDD can't rely on like a crutch.
-yes... he's strong.. so Zelda has to watch out... luckily, it'll be hard for him to land those strong moves, but Zelda's light... this is still n advantage.
-It's a good recovery... but it's also a very PUNISHABLE recovery... and, oh, Zelda CAN punish it.
- His projectile is significantly outspammed by din's fire.
- Zelda has good range too... and hers comes with more reliable speed meaning that some of his biggest moves just won't likely connect.
-Luckily... Zelda doesn't have to approach... DDD does... and his approach game is... lakcing... at best
- WoP is nigh useless against Zelda's recovery because, for all its faults, it DOES still succede in teleporting right thorough enemies.
- nanananana,,, you can't chain grab Zelda.

So... it's not JUST that Zelda does well against him... it's ALSO... maybe even moreseo that she counters all his reliable benefits.

 

[Greenstreet]

flippin sweet

 

[gantrain05]

for once i actually agree with u sonic lol, zelda does pwn DDD in nearly every aspect of his game, i've seen DDD hit by so many lightning kicks its not even funny, that fat penguin can't get away from those if his life depended on it, and unfortunately it does depend on it.

 

[MxGm]

Good job on the chart. This will help a lot of people.

 

[Smashbros_7]

Mario and DK should have Big X's on Dedede. Dedede has an INFINITE on them.
(and Samus and Bowser too)

 

[Smashbros_7]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=180723&page=1

A thread explaining on the Ness vs Zelda argument. Most of us have come to the conclusion that Zelda<Ness

 

[ChronoPenguin]

alright serious fo serious.

Yoshi > or = DK.

Yoshi's egg toss stops almost any of his ground approaches, in the air yoshi can still hit em with it except if DK double jumps in which case the egg toss's bad overhead maneuverability can allow dk to get him.

When yoshi's not egg tossing, DK has a great ground reach.

however if yoshi is in close range, theres no way in hell (well maybe stupid hell) DK is hitting yoshi with a fsmash, maybe a f/dtilt in which case DK gets hit with d-air, because of DK's size when yoshi's d-air ends he already has no lag once he hits the ground and can grab DK into a Utoss or Ftoss.

Ftoss results in a dash attack unless DK jumps, DK's f-air won't hit yoshi, at low percentages the toss sends him to close to the ground to counter it (unless he jumps).

DK's arguably best move against yoshi is his back air, it's reach is good, it's priority is good, it's good.
Second would be his d-air, although I believe yoshi's u-air outreach's it by 2 mm or so >.>.

Really im going to say the very best thing yoshi has against dk is his egg toss on the ground, for stopping approaches.

In the air yoshi can take DK as long as he's facing him (so that theres no back air)
everything yoshi does generally just comes out faster than dk's.
Yoshi's faster on the ground if that helps any, and yoshi's quite fast in the air.

yoshi has a CG on him too.

Unless theres some secret fantastic thing DK has going on yoshi that I've never encounted before >.>
__________________________________________________
Yoshi has an advantage on Jiggles.
Jiggles get's sent in the air...REALLY easily, and just begs for a u-air to KO her >.>
both characters have awop but yoshi's is sexier....which automatically means better =P
Jokes aside jiggly can't edgeguard yoshi, until after his djc is over, which can be done by other characters well since they can knock him far and bring up damage on him. With Jiggly it's different, she's so light and floaty unless she gets a rest on him or a good hit from rollout she'll never send him that far.

sleeps not going to work, yoshi doesn't stay on the ground if he sees jiggly's in the air, he goes right after her and beats her there, so their's no aerial sleeps >.>
Ground sleep definitely wont work when yoshi outranges her with a d-tilt.

maybe im underestimating her >.> doesn't seem that way yoshi's n-air rocks jiggly also.

egglay rocks her because she's so floaty when she breaks out she can always be aerial'd (cept 4 airdodge >.>).

Originally Posted by Mmac View Post
First Jigglypuff. Jigglypuff has little chance against Yoshi. Jigglypuff is superior in the Air, but Yoshi actually has a better air game than her. All of Yoshi Air's are better in range or priority, or at least Equal. I won't even discuss her ground game. Being that Jigglypuff is Floaty as hell, she's a slow moving target that's easy to his, which can easily set up combos or kills. Yoshi's DJ Armour makes Jigglypuff harder to juggle him, which locks down one of her few combo potential and kill moves she haves. Finally Rollout can be easily countered by a well timed Pivot Grab which shut's down another Killmove. the only thing she's got left is a well place Rest, which could easily get her killed if missed. I say this is around 7:3 or 8:2 Yoshi. It's clearly in Yoshi's Advantage.

Poor Jiggz. Her aerial game was so nerfed in priority that Yoshi should have no problem harassing her with bairs, uairs, and nairs. Even her bair, which is by far her best aerial, is nerfed in usefulness because Yoshi can't be shield poked.
Nothing to fear from the stubby-legged kicks on the ground, though fsmash has pretty surprising range. It's not like Jiggz will be spending time there.
One small note: rollout can be sort of hard to handle if Yoshi doesn't react in time. DON'T THROW AN EGG. You'll just get punished for it. The best thing to do is attempt to time it right with an ftilt or grab (note that a pivot grab will take time to set up, and an ftilt will only cancel the rollout, not go through it, so follow up with a jab). Egg roll is usually an option as well, but beware its windup lag... if you didn't react in time, you'll eat a big hit. This cancels out rollout as well, so follow with jabs or tilts.
A note on Jiggz' floatiness: Eggs while she's recovering will be pretty useless, but given her slow rate of approach, they're great at the beginning of the match... though you should beware an instant rollout. Also, her light weight all but negates Yoshi's problems killing, so there's a disadvantage of each character canceled out by each other.
You may be exaggerating a bit on her kill moves, seeing as she still has fsmash and the WOP (though Yoshi could always jump out of it). Pound is also an option once Yoshi is at a higher percentage.
A final thing: Avoid shielding too much, more so in this match than in most others. Pound eats shields alive, and Jiggz can usually stay airborne long enough to poke-poke-poke at it even if she can't shieldstab.
If Jiggz could force Yoshi to go on the defensive, she would have this matchup made. However, she lacks the skills to capitalize on Yoshi's weaknesses, and that's why he has an advantage. I hesitate to make it an 8:2 but 7:3 sounds very reasonable.

LoL, I can't believe I wrote all that about Jigglypuff of all characters

____________

Zelda> DDD
___________________
Imma move off yoshi and play link for a while to see how bad he is/isn't.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=180723&page=1

A thread explaining on the Ness vs Zelda argument. Most of us have come to the conclusion that Zelda<Ness

this is nice and good and lovely etc but it has one problem. IT IS FROM THE NESS BOARD WERE PEOPLE WOULD BE BIAS FOR NESS. i am not even saying this is wrong i have not fought many ness's i fought plenty of lucas's but not many ness's so i wont coment who beats who, but before you post something like this make sure you have people from both sides talking about the fight and not just ness mains

 

[Mega-Japan]

The only reason I can think of why people say that Ness > Zelda is because PSI Magnet > Din's Fire, which is true, however, a good Zelda can do perfectly fine without Din's Fire. I say the match up is "~".

 

[Kiwikomix]

alright serious fo serious.

Yoshi > or = DK.

Yoshi's egg toss stops almost any of his ground approaches, in the air yoshi can still hit em with it except if DK double jumps in which case the egg toss's bad overhead maneuverability can allow dk to get him.

When yoshi's not egg tossing, DK has a great ground reach.

however if yoshi is in close range, theres no way in hell (well maybe stupid hell) DK is hitting yoshi with a fsmash, maybe a f/dtilt in which case DK gets hit with d-air, because of DK's size when yoshi's d-air ends he already has no lag once he hits the ground and can grab DK into a Utoss or Ftoss.

Ftoss results in a dash attack unless DK jumps, DK's f-air won't hit yoshi, at low percentages the toss sends him to close to the ground to counter it (unless he jumps).

DK's arguably best move against yoshi is his back air, it's reach is good, it's priority is good, it's good.
Second would be his d-air, although I believe yoshi's u-air outreach's it by 2 mm or so >.>.

Really im going to say the very best thing yoshi has against dk is his egg toss on the ground, for stopping approaches.

In the air yoshi can take DK as long as he's facing him (so that theres no back air)
everything yoshi does generally just comes out faster than dk's.
Yoshi's faster on the ground if that helps any, and yoshi's quite fast in the air.

yoshi has a CG on him too.

Unless theres some secret fantastic thing DK has going on yoshi that I've never encounted before >.>

The not-so-secret but still fantastic thing DK has going for him is his f-tilt. It looks like it stops all of Yoshi's moves (possibly not pivot grab) both in the ground and the air. The thing I can see about this, though, is that if DK misses, Yoshi's safe to grab him, which leads into a chain grab.
I would definitely say the matchup is neutral. In Yoshi's favor is a bit of a stretch though. A lot of a stretch, a DK player might say.

 

[DanGR]

The only reason I can think of why people say that Ness > Zelda is because PSI Magnet > Din's Fire, which is true, however, a good Zelda can do perfectly fine without Din's Fire. I say the match up is "~".

you, read that V

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=180723&page=1

A thread explaining on the Ness vs Zelda argument. Most of us have come to the conclusion that Zelda<Ness

this is nice and good and lovely etc but it has one problem. IT IS FROM THE NESS BOARD WERE PEOPLE WOULD BE BIAS FOR NESS. i am not even saying this is wrong i have not fought many ness's i fought plenty of lucas's but not many ness's so i wont coment who beats who, but before you post something like this make sure you have people from both sides talking about the fight and not just ness mains

you didn't read Cazcom's very in depth matchup guide, did you. What are you talking about when you say "IT IS FROM THE NESS BOARD WERE PEOPLE WOULD BE BIAS FOR NESS". I read the whole guide, and nothing I saw was totally bias. It was all true. facts=truth.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

^ all i was saying was he should of put one on both the ness board and the zelda board. and also it came out sounding mean b/c of the caps but that was not my intent

edit: i was just in a mood (not a bad mood) but a mood that eve through i saw it came out sounding mean i did not care enough to fix it. so ether a mood that lacked caring or an ******* mood one of the 2

 

[Smashbros_7]

Okay, someone do the Zelda boards next (im to sick. and tired)

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

the ness vs zelda thing has been brought up on the zelda boards before. what it comes down to is that some think ness is even and some think ness has a small advantage. I have not having played enough good ness's to coment/ look at it like this, i can see that ness has the advantage do to his move set but i can also see how a smart and good zelda would be able to fight equally to ness (din's not being as needed as many think).

so yes ness can get health from din's but most the tournament people i have fought are able to dogde/block din's anyway so i mostly use it to make someone approach (which wont work on ness but i don't feel thats a big deal since ness needs to approach somwhat since his projectiles hit from midrange) and when din's it does hit i consider it dmg that i most likley should not of gotten and am happy to have it but i don't need din's to win a fight the most it is for me is a bonus,

So without a din spamming zelda i feel the advantage ness would have would be less or he would not have one at all.

 

[Smashbros_7]

I could not read that.
Space it please.

Also CAN SOMEONE EXPLAIN TO ME WHY SHIEK, WARIO, AND DK, HAVE AN ADVANTAGE OVER NESS!

PS: I forgot, Ivysaur, Squirtle, ZSS and fox. that is all.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

ok fine i will space it in a minute

 

[Smashbros_7]

the ness vs zelda thing has been brought up on the zelda boards before. what it comes down to is that some think ness is even and some think ness has a small advantage. I not having played enough good ness's to coment look at it like this, i can see that ness has the advantage do to his move set but i can also see how a smart and good zelda would be able to fight equally to ness (din's not being as needed as many think). yes ness can get health from din's but most the tournament people i have fought are able to dogde/block din's anyway so i mostly use it to make someone approachand when it does hit i consider it dmg that i most likley should not of gotten and am happy to have it but i don't need din's to win a fight the most it is for me is a bonus and without a din spamming zelda i feel the advantage ness would have would be less or he would not have one at all.

Sorry for the double post.

PSI magnet isn't Zelda's biggest problem. Ness and Lucas can DI out her smashes (Up and forward smash) making them useless.