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Brawl Character Match-Up chart

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Kiwikomix

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Yeah the hell right. Skip over it if you don't want to read it.
The only reason I want to get on to a new conversation is that, once somebody changes their mind, a new person comes onto the thread and starts saying stuff that has already been said. The argument has been going in circles, and at this point it's not so much matchup discussion as personal insults. For example...

Your not even that good. Ignore this dude.
Just because your a zelda main doesn't make u the all knowing zelda defender, for all we know ur not a very good zelda either.
Learn how to discuss a matchup without being such a petulant child.
Just to name a few I found in only the last two pages.

Seriously, I'm sick of all of these normally intelligent posters breaking down and pulling this kind of ****. Either discuss the matchup like normal people or don't discuss it at all.

Wario vs Dedede: Big Check for Dedede, Big X-mark for Wario. I can discuss this matchup if someone wants me to but I really doubt someone needs for me to go in depth here.
LoL, you mean that you don't want the entire community to know why he loses... keep it a secret :p
 

DMG

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on the wario vs ike thing, i know that Ike was rediculously overplayed in the opening months of brawl, so now only really a few good ikes remain, but i've had the opportunity to see some very good ikes, and those people really know how to use ikes speed moves with very good spacing, its very hard to beat a competant ike, especially when they know when to use their super armor. i've also been to a tourney where my brother who played as ike, and he's only played the game maybe a total of 5 times before the tournament, for a total of maybe 5 hours, actually defeated a wario that actually ended up winning the tourney and was very good. (double elimination). so i don't know, i think in the hands of an ike master, wario would have alot of difficulty getting thru ikes power/range.
Ike is, for the most part, slow on the ground and in the air. He has range and power but Wario still doesn't have that much trouble running circles in the air and even on the ground around Ike. If Wario gets up close, all Ike has that is fast enough to compete with Wario are his jab combo and his grab, both of which aren't exactly fool proof moves.
 

Dpete

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Wario vs Kirby: I had a friendly debate on the Kirby boards and we came to the consensus that Wario has a small advantage in that matchup.
Agreed, but didn't we decide it still should be considered a neutral matchup?

And if you want to get into new discussions, the Kirby board has a long list that needs to be changed.
 

DMG

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Agreed, but didn't we decide it still should be considered a neutral matchup?

And if you want to get into new discussions, the Kirby board has a long list that needs to be changed.
We agreed on 55-45 Wario's favor. I mean I guess you could call that either neutral or slight advantage.

Edit: I'll look into some of the other Kirby Matchups and see what I can contribute there.
 

Dpete

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Yeah we decided that for the purpose of the matchup chart that 55 rankings might as well be considered neutral. That way, they are not lumped into the same category (small advantage) as the 70 matchups, which are considerably more one-sided than the 55 ranking.

Here's the changes the Kirby community decided on (parenthesis = former ranking):

Change to Kirby's Large Advantage:

  • Captain Falcon (Advantage)

Change to Kirby's Small Advantage:
  • Charizard (Neutral)
  • Fox (Neutral)
  • Ike (Disadvantage)
  • Ivysaur (Neutral)
  • Toon Link (Disadvantage)
  • Wolf (Neutral)

Change to Neutral:

  • Donkey Kong (Advantage)
  • Falco (Disadvantage)
  • Luigi (Advantage)
  • Mario (Advantage)
  • Meta Knight (Disadvantage)
  • Ness (Disadvantage)
  • Peach (Advantage)
  • Pikachu (Disadvantage)
  • Pit (Disadvantage)
  • Squirtle (Advantage)
  • Yoshi (Advantage)

Change to Kirby's Small Disadvantage:
  • ROB (Advantage)
  • Samus (Advantage)

Take note that these are not my opinions, but the collective agreements on the Kirby discussion board. We spent at least a little time discussing every character, and soon we are going to start doing a weekly review on each of the rankings to make them as solid as possible.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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I did.

What worked on paper didn't work in the match. I didn't realize how pathetic Ness's ground game is compared to Zelda's. I mean, it wasn't impossible to get ground hits in, but I could only get a good 5-15% (not counting the bat smash) on Zelda at any one encounter on the ground. Most characters don't have a skill like Nayru's Love, and most don't have a Dsmash that comes out lightning quick. It also doesn't help that approaching from the air opens Zelda up to the option of an Usmash. Of course, on the flipside, Ness can combo Zelda in the air, or at the very least, he can get her in the air and pester with PK Thunder (and in my experience, it's not always reflected).

I'm beginning to think the match is even. PSI Magnet is a minor, minor advantage, if it is one at all. You only get one or two Din's in on an opponent in a match, and that's usually if you're far away - PSI magnet up close gets you punished with Zelda, as it would with any character. Zelda's basically a fortress to Ness with her defenses, but once he gets past her defenses, he can rack up damage quite fast with his aerials. I personally found the match-up to be a pain with Ness.



I don't know... most Charizards aren't terribly difficult to me, but that range, power, and weight might be able to hold that large X. Don't get me wrong, I'd rather see it as a small x, and it just might get changed to that, but Charizard has other things going for him (like that fair).



Ness does not shut down that approach. He has to dodge it just like everyone else or he'll 1) get hit by the fire, or 2) use the PSI magnet (which won't be coming out in time anyway unless you KNOW it's coming) and get punished by any of her follow-up attacks.

Being extremely light doesn't really matter much when it comes to a b-throw. Zelda is easily one of the most difficult characters to grab in the game because she is designed to keep you away from her when you get too close. It doesn't kill at some abnormally low % unless you're near the edge or if Zelda DIs it. Being light and "dying easily" barely accounts for anything. That's like saying Ganon's hard to kill for Ness but Squirtle is easy because of weight alone.



Read a bit. He's said Lucas 6:4 or 5.5:4.5 Zelda before.



Yeah the hell right. Skip over it if you don't want to read it. End of.



And to avoid quoting all of the other Ness vs. Zelda posts... STH might be one of the very few arguing for Zelda, but it counts for something, especially when most people use ad hominems and theoretical logic to back up their claims that they obviously didn't get from experience. Also, to whoever mentioned being professional, that's a stupid thought. You don't have to be a pro to find strengths and weaknesses in match-ups. You're not born a pro. You have to start from somewhere, and finding strengths and weaknesses is part of bettering your own game plan.




Zelda has bad recovery? LOL

First off, Ness isn't gonna get a dair past that uair. Second, good luck at getting a dair off of someone who can warp in several directions at any given point in time. Don't forget to mention that Zelda has attacks that outrange the living hell out of Ness's ground game, and also don't forget that her nair also has good priority, her lightning kicks kill at very, very low %s, and nothing of Ness's is getting past that uair.

Anyway, read this thread instead of going "NOT ONE LUCAS MENTION" over and over. Also, once again, you're kidding yourself if you honestly believe PSI magnet kills off Din's Fire, at all. At the most, it'll cut down her pressuring game, but it won't nullify it.
Agreed, 100%. But, to show ehy it's not in ZELDA's favour: because he CAN psi magnet, Zelda can't get in free damage to him while he's recovering high

Ness's fair allows him to approach without getting Usmashed much easier than a lot of characters.

Ness can DI out of Usmash often enough that it's worth mentioning.

Ness's fair protects him against Zelda kicks fairly well.

Ness's air game is better than zelda's... even if he doesn't get as many chances to pull it out as he'd like.

Zelda's light.

Ness isn't the easiest bugger to approach, and zelda will be approaching occasionally.


Edit: why WOULDN'T Zelda have an advatage on kirby? her USmash destroys his airial approcahes (besides stone) and her Fsmash destroys ground apporach.
 

adumbrodeus

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Yeah we decided that for the purpose of the matchup chart that 55 rankings might as well be considered neutral. That way, they are not lumped into the same category (small advantage) as the 70 matchups, which are considerably more one-sided than the 55 ranking.

Here's the changes the Kirby community decided on (parenthesis = former ranking):

Change to Kirby's Large Advantage:

  • Captain Falcon (Advantage)

Change to Kirby's Small Advantage:
  • Charizard (Neutral)
  • Fox (Neutral)
  • Ike (Disadvantage)
  • Ivysaur (Neutral)
  • Toon Link (Disadvantage)
  • Wolf (Neutral)

Change to Neutral:

  • Donkey Kong (Advantage)
  • Falco (Disadvantage)
  • Luigi (Advantage)
  • Mario (Advantage)
  • Meta Knight (Disadvantage)
  • Ness (Disadvantage)
  • Peach (Advantage)
  • Pikachu (Disadvantage)
  • Pit (Disadvantage)
  • Squirtle (Advantage)
  • Yoshi (Advantage)
  • Zelda (Disadvantage)

Change to Kirby's Small Disadvantage:
  • ROB (Advantage)
  • Samus (Advantage)

Take note that these are not my opinions, but the collective agreements on the Kirby discussion board. We spent at least a little time discussing every character, and soon we are going to start doing a weekly review on each of the rankings to make them as solid as possible.
And we all know how how unbaised the Kirby board is towards it's character[/sarcasm]

A few choice examples...

Pit to neutral, forced approach, better defensive game, better aerial game, better priority, no... Pit is a definite advantage.

Tlink, most of the same issues

Ike, sorry, he outranges and outprioritzes everything kirby has by far too much, He might not be able to force the approach, but neither can kirby and kirby has no good approaches against him.
 

Kiwikomix

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As a Kirby player I really think that matchup is in Zelda's favor. Kirby's lack of a projectile hurts him in this matchup more than in most, since Din's can't be copied. Since Kirby has trouble approaching anyway, Zelda's camping can be pretty annoying. Plus she has more range and priority on almost all of her attacks. Kirby's main advantage is that his moves come out faster, but that only goes so far.

Edit: @ adumbrodeus: You have to admit that EVERY board is biased toward its character.
And Kirby definitely DOES beat Ike.
 

Dpete

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Alright, I reread our arguments on the Kirby matchup thread, and I'm willing to concede the Zelda argument. Advantage: Zelda.

And I did my best to keep the arguments as unbiased as possible, oftentimes going to other boards to ask their opinions. In fact, if you look at the Zelda board, I even went there and asked what they thought of the neutral matchup against Kirby, and no one argued against it, one person even agreed.
 

DanGR

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I agree Kiwi, Kirby>Ike. That's one unbiased opinion. (^.^)b

Ivan should at least account for the matchups the Kirby boards would like to change that are disadvantageous for him. There can't be any bias towards Kirby there at least.
 

adumbrodeus

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Edit: @ adumbrodeus: You have to admit that EVERY board is biased toward its character.
That was my entire point actually.

Their conclusions are information, but some are a bit... off the wall. We need the positions of the opposite forums before we agree to directly include them, and certain match-ups here (especially pit and tlink) illustrate that perfectly.
 

Kiwikomix

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Actually, the consistent bias is a hard thing to determine. I help with the Yoshi matchup chart, and we have, for example, Snake at a 6-4 advantage to Yoshi. But I guarantee that if the Snake boards had even bothered to analyze the Yoshi matchup at this point, it would be far more of an advantage for them. The question is, which board is right and which one is biased? People will usually consider whichever character is lower tier to be the biased party. Therefore, based on who mains who, there will always be someone complaining about some matchup.
 

popsofctown

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And don't forget how much worse the dilemma is if the Yoshis play Snake all the time and the Snakes are playing against someone else.
 

adumbrodeus

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Actually, the consistent bias is a hard thing to determine. I help with the Yoshi matchup chart, and we have, for example, Snake at a 6-4 advantage to Yoshi. But I guarantee that if the Snake boards had even bothered to analyze the Yoshi matchup at this point, it would be far more of an advantage for them. The question is, which board is right and which one is biased? People will usually consider whichever character is lower tier to be the biased party. Therefore, based on who mains who, there will always be someone complaining about some matchup.
Which is why we have to take both sides into accounts and have them argue it out between them. Just taking one side at their say so is asking to biases cemented into the chart.


And really the fact that the Kirby board's have cut out a net 5 disadvantageous match-ups should raise some eyebrows in general, they definitely need to be defended in a far less cursory manner then this before they're accepted. Accepted tier is irrelevant to that fact.
 

DanGR

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They haven't done the whole cast yet. There will probably be more disadvantages though.
 

DMG

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Kirby > Ike (that's another unbiased opinion)

The Kirby matchups look pretty accurate to me. Part of the reason they might not be 100% correct is because most people that main other characters aren't gonna wander or contribute over on another character's board. Most boards have that issue though.
 

Dpete

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Well, um, actually we have done the whole cast... and we do have more than 5 "disadvantages." But here's where we run into clarity issues.

We were using the basic single digit numeric system (i.e. 6-4) to determine matchups early in our thread. But, when discussing a character, specifically Meta Knight, we found he didn't really fit with the characters rated 5-5 or 6-4. So we abandoned that system for a two digit system (60-40), which brought a new rating we had to deal with, 55-45. Do we consider this ranking a disadvantage or neutral?

Well, as stated earlier, for purposes of the matchup chart, we considered it neutral because it didn't feel right categorizing them as disadvantages along with more one-sided matchups (like, say, the 70-30 of Snake and Marth). You could say, well just make those 70-30 matchups "large advantages." Well then you have a lack of clarity in that grouping, as some large advantages (80-20 and higher) are a lot harder or near impossible to win, while the 70-30 is an uphill battle yet still winnable.

So, in summary, characters with a 55-45 advantage like Meta Knight, Wario, and Pit were ranked as neutral, rather than the slight advantage they may have.

And, I agree that a lot of the matchups are questionable. My goal in presenting our info was to get those matchups corrected. As the OP of the Kirby Matchup Thread I feel that's my responsibility. I figured it would be easier posting them here than going to each individual character board.
 

asob4

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the match up thread on AiB is being done a lot better
one character at a time, with mains telling their opinions on match ups through experience, with corrections by mains of the other character. using the 2 digit system, the ratings are separated properly depending on the numbers

a lot of these match ups are wrong
 

asob4

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i already have on AiB
i gave all the match ups for olimar and was given other mains opinions for who it was against.

the best way to do this is by getting mains of each character to tell their opinions on the match ups

just wait for the character specific boards to finish, then make it a chart.
 

Blackbelt

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i already have on AiB
i gave all the match ups for olimar and was given other mains opinions for who it was against.

the best way to do this is by getting mains of each character to tell their opinions on the match ups

just wait for the character specific boards to finish, then make it a chart.
no no no. If you have a problem with the match-up here, than you argue about it here.
 

Kasai

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i already have on AiB
i gave all the match ups for olimar and was given other mains opinions for who it was against.

the best way to do this is by getting mains of each character to tell their opinions on the match ups

just wait for the character specific boards to finish, then make it a chart.
The problem with that is that the mains that are being discussed aren't going to be wondering the boards and aren't going to be giving any opposing arguments. If you just leave it up to character boards, there are definitely going to be quite a few discrepancies. Honestly, the chart looks pretty good now. If you have opposing opinions, post specific ones (don't just say that a lot are wrong) and argue for them instead of just stating them.
 

asob4

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The problem with that is that the mains that are being discussed aren't going to be wondering the boards and aren't going to be giving any opposing arguments. If you just leave it up to character boards, there are definitely going to be quite a few discrepancies. Honestly, the chart looks pretty good now. If you have opposing opinions, post specific ones (don't just say that a lot are wrong) and argue for them instead of just stating them.
then a main thread would be made for arguing the certain match ups
a lot of match ups are pretty understood.
everyone agrees ROB, MK, and marth do VERY well against olimar. there's others as well.
 

Dpete

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Okay, anyways...

Back to "arguing certain matchups." Does anybody else have any questions about the revisions to Kirby's ratings as presented on the previous page? We are going to refine our rankings through a weekly character analysis, and I would like to know who you would like us to look at in the near future.
 

adumbrodeus

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Okay, anyways...

Back to "arguing certain matchups." Does anybody else have any questions about the revisions to Kirby's ratings as presented on the previous page? We are going to refine our rankings through a weekly character analysis, and I would like to know who you would like us to look at in the near future.
Well, I'll definitely drop by, and you certainly need some mains of other characters to help deal with the biases.

As I said before, your pit and Tlink match-ups at least deserve massive revision.
 

ChibiPichu

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I can't argue against most of your information but Olimar does have a small disadvantage to Pikachu's Electricty spam and getting caught by too many of Pikachu's grabs and longer ranged attacks destroy Pikmin unless they are Yellow
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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Zelda/Shiek

if you are willing to switch... some matchups become more favourable to you..

G&W, ROB and G-Dorf come to mind.
 

asob4

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I can't argue against most of your information but Olimar does have a small disadvantage to Pikachu's Electricty spam and getting caught by too many of Pikachu's grabs and longer ranged attacks destroy Pikmin unless they are Yellow
oli and pika are about even
all his pikmin stop the spamming, yellows just survive it
too lazy to go into it
 

Anth0ny

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The Marth forums have come to an agreement that MK is Marth's worst matchup and has an advantage over him.

It may be a slight 6:4 disadvantage, but it is still a disadvantage
 

Emblem Lord

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Recently a Marth player just beat two good MK players in tournament, just this past Saturday. He got 4th place and went all Marth.

So don't give me that sad face **** Anthony.

Be grateful for that 4/6. There are characters in this game that stand no chance of beating MK.

Marth is lucky.
 

Dark Sonic

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Just think of it like you're fighting Shieks all over again. A slight disadvantage does not make Marth unviable as a tournament character.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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Finally we Zelda mainers are starting a thread of our own... we'll get back to you when it's complete I guess
 
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