Brawl Character Match-Up chart

[DanGR]

for fun EL, what do you think about Olimar v Snake?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Hmmmm. That's a toughie.

Olimar is sooooooooo good at shutting down ground rush down from the majority of the cast and Pikman take care of Snake's nades and mines. But Snake has his dash attack and his Snakedash to plow through Pikman.

Olimar is a good killer though with good range and racks up damage fast. Snake is...Snake. Insane range, priority, attack speed and crazy power. An u-tilt at like 80 and Oli is gone.

This one is hard to call. I will give it an even for now though. Snake can still use nades he just has to be smarter and throw them while jumping so Pikmen don't blow them up before they get close to Olimar. And his Snakedash helps him penetrate Olimar's range.

 

[mr_kennedy44]

Emblem Lord I disagree with you when you say that G&W is broken. Neither him nor Marth are broken. That being said even though I main G&W I think Marth has an advantage over him.

 

[gantrain05]

yeah i agree marth is overrated, and while fox may only have 2 approaches to marth, fox doesn't have to approach, he has the option of projectiles, which don't stun or do much damage, but it forces marth to approach him or take the damage, honestly if the matchup between fox and marth is in marths favor its very very slight if not even.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Mr.Escalator: No debate? Ahh, you're no fun. Also yes I know TL is listed as his hard match-up. That's why I'm loling. I don't think TL is a hard match-up for G&W. No need to get snippy.

I can chat up Velocity anytime I choose since we are the same crew and all that. I guess I'll pm OBM or something.

And yeah G&W is broken. Did you think he wasn't? Killing people at like 60 with a candle in a game where people live till 140% on the regular doesn't seem like a bit much to you? Or that silly multi-hit shield stabbing Bair. I'm sure you thought that was very balanced and fair.

haha.

 

[DanGR]

That's what I originally thought, but shielding then grabbing(not sging) snake's faster approaches solves that problem. I see the matchup advantage going towards olimar b/c he shuts down most of snakes otherwise solid approaches.

Olimar makes him approach, Olimar has the range advantage,(depends how you look at it) and he juggles and racks exceptionally well against the larger snake.(partly eliminating snakes high weight issue)

What snake has is the KO power to kill Olimar at low percents, but no reliable way to approach. He also has the advantage in really close combat. Olimar can grab Snake really well though b/c Snake is a ground based character. And like you said, Olimar shuts down grounded opponents well.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Yeah, I can see that.

Snake just can't reliably get in since he has no aerial approach game.

 

[mr_kennedy44]

Ok EL maybe I'm a tad biased towards G&W. I can understand that killing at 60% can be a bit unfair considering G&W's lightweight. I can also agree with you about the turtle in a way. But other than that how is he broken?

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Toon Link IS a hard matchup is what Im saying :S
Harder than Marth by far

haha, but seriously, if he was broken, he would be top already. I see Snake moving down, yeah, but I don't think G&W will see the very top ever. MK is just too good.

Fairness?
In a fighting game?
PP

 

[Emblem Lord]

His priority is just ridiculous. All his smashes are crazy strong. That d-tilt stays out too long and has good range.

His Uair is just ********. Stalls his opponent AND refreshes his moves even when it doesn't actually hit?

Are you serious? G&W is ********. It's ok to play a ******** character. Just accept that they are ********. also he is **** near impossible to gimp thanks to a great recovery. He has one real weakness. He is a feather weight. But I guess that weakness isn't too much of a big deal since he is usually considered to be 3rd best in the game.

The only reason G&W isn't top is because Brawl is ****ing stupid with two of the stupidest characters ever made that are just broken beyond belief.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Sorry that Marth can't blow opponents up to refresh his moves :[[

 

[Emblem Lord]

lol. Don't apologize. It makes me think you are patronizing me. He asked why G&W is broken and I answered. It has nothing to do with whether or not Marth is broken, which I don't think he is BTW.

 

[Remzi]

Fox - Light. PREDICTABLE approach. Seriously he has like two approaches. Marth has a far easier time gimping him then Fox does gimping Marth.

Wolf - Gimp city. Also Very predictable one dimensional fighting style. Marth doesn't care about Wolf's Bair spacing. His lasers are powershield bait. One of the easier characters to gimp.

MK - Look, I know you have been getting owned by Forte. Look, Forte is better then you. So stop trying to say that the match isn't even just because you are losing to a better MK.

**** all you MD/VA *****s do this ****.

When I talk to great MK players they all say the same thing to me. At max potential Marth and MK go even. It's just harder for Marth to bring out his full potential and much easier for MK. Anyway, it's even because Marth has advantage on the stage, while MK has advantage off the stage. Marth shuts down MK's B moves ans forces MK to get past his range. But MK has his gimps. Still MK is light so he has less room for error.

Marth is not being given too much credit.

Do you see him pwning anyone good?

Do you seem him completely domination good characters like Snake, MK and G&W? No sir you do not. You see him going EVEN with good characters. That's not being given too much credit. That's what I call barely scraping by.

-How can you seriously tell me that Fox has few and predictable approaches? Just naming a few, he has his shine, bair, nair, dash attack, dair, Dash to USmash. All of those are legit approaches. Fox isn't very easy to gimp in the first place, he two great options for recovery. Also, Fox can edgehog Marth quite easily at low %'s.

-Wolf: "Gimp city", "wolf is easy to gimp." you really havent said anything here so i'll wait for a better reply from you

- Metaknight: The LAST thing I need is you sitting here making assumptions on why I say this matchup is in MK's favor. You mentioned weight, Marth is one of the lighter characters as well, so he has as little room for error as MK does. MK has quicker and higher priority attacks. The only thing Marth has on him is range, but we both know a good MK can easily get around a Ftilt or Fair to get in and deal some heavy damage.

*EDIT: Oh yeah and having NOT ONE BAD MATCHUP is not barely scraping by.

 

[Remzi]

Snake just can't reliably get in since he has no aerial approach game.

ever heard of bair?

 

[Emblem Lord]

LOL. Fox has a few GOOD approaches. The rest of the stuff you said he not good at all. Dair, grab and U-smash are his good approaches. Run to shine? How is this good. Fox has to be right up on his opponent. This would put him in danger. That's not a good approach. How is Bair or Nair a good approach. Nair is not safe and Bair wouldn't be used as an approach so much as a spacing tool.

Do you know what it means to approach? Think about it.

About Wolf. I talked about more then just gimping. Read my post again plz.

MK - Do you know what priority is? It is not some hidden arbitrary factor. It's a combination of several things. Speed, range, how long the hitboxes stay out, how far away the hitbox is located from the hurtbox. Marth has more range but MK attacks faster. If Marth spaces well then MK gets hit. But that is not what MK should be doing. MK doesn't try to win a priority battle with Marth. He would lose due to Marth's range. He plays rushdown which he is very good at.


Did you really just say Snake has a good aerial approach with Bair?

Please learn what a good approach is and the meaning of approach before you debate me or try to correct me.

 

[adumbrodeus]

ever heard of bair?

*cough* *cough*

Bair vs. who, Ganondorf?

Cause that's just about the only character it'll work against. It's not disjoined so anyone with a disjointed hitbox from the ground will beat it outright. It's also rather slow, especially in post-lag.

And then there's the fact that you can easily shield and punish.

No, approaching with Snake's bair is a BAD idea, Ganondorf is probably the only char slow enough to actually not be able to counter if properly spaced.... Oh wait, murder choke!

 

[Dotcom]

ever heard of bair?

lol.
Everyone has heard of Bair, but using this as an approach against an Olimar.
It's like you want to get hurt.

Funniest thing i've read all day.

 

[Remzi]

I know what priority is, I know what approach is; no need to attack my intelligence just because I disagree with your point of view. Why is Fox's nair an unsafe approach? It is extremely quick and has decent range. I agree that shine isn't a very good approach, don't really know what I was thinking on that one. Bair is a spacing tool, but can be used as a rather effective back approach as well.

I've read what you've said about Wolf, but it still isn't saying much. Wolf has quick and decent ranged grabs which make for an excellent approach (as well as Fair). Wolf has a highly spammable gun, and it doesn't return far even when power shielded. So it isn't likely to hurt Wolf at all. Not much to say to "one dimensional fighting style" you'll have to expand on that one.

I will tell you why MK out prioritizes Marth. MK's attacks are SO MUCH quicker, and his range isn't bad. This leads to effective combos and ultimately a quick way to rack up damage. Metaknight's recovery is extremely difficult to gimp, and because of his air style, he is able gimp Marth without too much problems.

About Snake... why not? It serves as a good back approach IMO.

 

[Remzi]

My fault, I didn't know the discussion was about Olimar. It does work well against a lot of others though, I still would support that claim.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I will tell you why MK out prioritizes Marth. MK's attacks are SO MUCH quicker, and his range isn't bad. This leads to effective combos and ultimately a quick way to rack up damage. Metaknight's recovery is extremely difficult to gimp, and because of his air style, he is able gimp Marth without too much problems.

That's ability to rush, not priority... We all know MK rushes better, but Marth's priority is significantly better, this match-up is so spacing-dependant it's not even funny for exactly that reason. Marth's priority wins if he can keep metaknight at a distance, but metaknight's combo power destroys up close.

Overall, Marth is better on the ground because he can control the spacing better there, Metaknight however, has a massive advantage in the air.

About Snake... why not? It serves as a good back approach IMO.

Too slow, not disjointed. Olimar will ESPECIALLY eat him alive.

 

[Remzi]

your basically making it seem like range=priority. speed is just as important in priority as range. his speed is also important for rushing though.

 

[gantrain05]

anyone eats snake alive in the air thats why he approaches with dash > Usmash because his dash attack is fairly safe, even if shielded or dodged its hard to punish because he goes strait thru the opponent and instantly pulls out his mortar to punish anyone going back to chase him. why approach with Bair?

 

[SojinX]

wow this is great i learned a lot form this very helpful.

 

[Dark Sonic]

your basically making it seem like range=priority. speed is just as important in priority as range. his speed is also important for rushing though.

That's because range does=priority. Speed is a completely different aspect (though still very important). But one thing that I don't think you're getting is

Marth's ground moves are just as fast as Metaknight's aerials, but with more range. Marth is much safer on the ground than in the air in this matchup, because he can space much more effectively there (since he moves faster there). Marth should not be playing aerial battles with Metaknight, because he will be at a disadvantage. However, being at a disadvantage in one aspect of the game does not mean a disadvantage in the whole matchup. On the ground, Marth can use his f-tilt against Metaknight's aerial approaches, d-tilt against grounded approaches, take advantage of his incredible side B, and gets to play a much stronger defensive game in general. Metaknight's light weight against Marth's killing power also really helps even the playing field for Marth.

 

[Browny]

lol @ trying to prove G&W ISNT broken. hes just as bad as snake, just less popular.

 

[Brinzy]

...There is absolutely nothing wrong with chaingrabbing.

Who said there was something wrong with it? I'm just saying that if you can chain someone you supposedly have a bad match-up against, then it doesn't really matter too much, right? Of course you're gonna win left, right, and center against pretty much anyone when you yourself have the ability to CG.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Who said there was something wrong with it? I'm just saying that if you can chain someone you supposedly have a bad match-up against, then it doesn't really matter too much, right? Of course you're gonna win left, right, and center against pretty much anyone when you yourself have the ability to CG.

Assuming the character is reasonably approachable, the chain-grab is an infinite, (or can be done till death) and they don't have a more efficient one on you...

 

[Brinzy]

The character in question was Dedede, if you didn't see.

 

[adumbrodeus]

The character in question was Dedede, if you didn't see.

The point I was making was that having a chaingrab on a character doesn't mean you'll be winning matches left and right. There are a lot of other factors to consider.

 

[Brinzy]

I know this. I asked the original poster if it was due more to his ability to chain or his normal fighting ability (since he inquired about why Dedede seems to have, in his opinion, too many bad match-ups).

 

[IvanEva]

1. These types of threads should not exist.

2. Player skill is the biggest factor in this game.

3. Anyone can say this character is better than that character but it doesn't mean they are right.

4. Besides half of the people in this thread likely have never done well in a tournament, ergo, don't know what the hell they are saying.

1. Are you saying that match-ups are not significant in a fighting game? They've mattered since the first incarnation of Street Fighter II and will always matter so long as characters are different from one another.

2. Almost always, yes. Almost. As players reach a "higher level of play", tiers and match-ups become a lot more pronounced. Quite frankly (and very sadly) they're even more pronounced in Brawl than in many other games. Skill is a factor but it's not always the biggest one. My crappy Marth can teach your pro Ness a thing or two about skill not being the biggest factor.

3. No, which is the point of this, and many other threads. Most match-ups are correct, I'd wager, but yes, there are still plenty that are in the refinery stage.

4. Half of the people here know their stuff? That's good enough for me! I just hope I'll be good enough to discern the good from the bad.

All i am saying is that its dumb how you guys analyze the game when its unnecessary. If you really want to learn more about the game u should be playing it instead.

And its funny how u guys use say "What if two people had roughly the same skill level" because that is impossible. Everyone has a different way of playing and no one is the same lol.

Playing the game, hell, having anything to do with games to begin with, is totally unnecessary. We're here because we like Brawl (despite its faults - how can they patch homebrew stuff which affects next to no one but they've yet to patch Brawl!?) and aim to get better at it.

I'm of "roughly the same skill level" as my brother and main Smash rival. We all generally tie in win percents with my Lucas losing slightly more to their Game and Watches and Marths. I'd say that we're at around the same level. How can I tell? When I play against certain other people I get destroyed and when I play against many others I totally dominate. I'd say that I'm of a lesser and greater skill level to them, respectively.

umm...the chart disappeared?

If that ever happens it's probably because I was in the middle of updating it.

I've backed down from the argument, but just remember that 2 highly ranked Yoshi mains and one highly ranked Wario main say that the matchup is leaning to Wario's favor.

Yeah, I'm inclined to leave it in Wario's favor but I put it as neutral under the assumption that that infinite (which I have yet to test out myself) would tilt the scales slightly.

Most zelda mains regard G&W or marth as her hardest matchups... neither of the earthbounders "eat her alive" least of all ness.

No, they kill her first. Then they use some condiments so that eating her recovers more HP.

Okay, my first post here, and I'm wondering what's been said about Yoshi.

For something character specific you're probably better off checking out the Yoshi boards. As for here, check a few pages back for a fairly in-depth debate between Wario and Yoshi.

. i put it at 35:65 in the lucario boards.

Oh dear lord. And I thought that the ten point scale was already too opinionatedly "accurate"...

Dedede's matchups really need to be redone completely, there terrible at the moment. Dedede's winning tournaments left, right, and center, and you think he has matchups like that? Honestly, rethink Dedede's mathups if you want this chart to be considered more then a joke.

I'd be more useful if you start one at a time. Pick a character that you feel Dedede has an advantage over and state why.

Why does Diddy Kong have a small advantage over Lucas, but a neutral chance against Ness?

I'm guessing Ness' forward air has a lot to do with it. Also, as always. Ness and Lucas are very different.

I know this. I asked the original poster if it was due more to his ability to chain or his normal fighting ability (since he inquired about why Dedede seems to have, in his opinion, too many bad match-ups).

I'm counting anything that's tournament legal. I'm still waiting for some Dedede match-ups (since I'm lazy and don't want to check out the Dedede threads ). I've got one person posting that Ice Climbers >> Dedede. Any thoughts?

 

[DanGR]

I have a recommendation IvanEva. If a matchup is commented on and the person arguing his point wants a matchup to go the other way,(ex. Zelda>Olimar instead of Olimar>Zelda) you wait until at least one other person argues for the other character. This gives the opposing side a chance to argue their point, instead of just assuming that the original debater is right. It helps to create a more accurate chart.

 

[cutter]

@ Esc: I'm still on the fence with G&W vs. Marth. I haven't played any good Marths but I know the matchup isn't easy. I would say the matchup is like 53-47 in favor of Marth. Toon Like is probably 60-40 in favor of TL.

I wouldn't put too much effort into changing the Xs into squigglies. They are G&W's hardest matchups IMO and they're only small advantages. They're not unwinnable matchups; you just have to work a bit harder obviously.

I'm still arguing that G&W >> Lucario because G&W has everything Lucario hates:
- Better aerials
- G&W Uair > Lucario Dair
- The bucket to shut down long-distance projectiles
- Kills very early to reduce Aura's effectiveness
- A recovery that is just asking to be gimped against someone that can easily chase foes offstage

Esc did a fantastic job of elaborating more on this, but I'll just keep it short.

Even if you guys think the matchup is 65-35 in favor of G&W, that sounds like a huge advantage for him IMO.

 

[Kasai]

Mr. Escalator did you even read what I posted? Either you didn't or have very little reading comprehension. I'm not going to go over point by point because I already did in my last post but the one thing that you obviously didn't get is the fact about gimping lucario via edge hogging. The ability to curve extreme speed (his up B) makes it very hard to edge hog regardless of whether or not it does damage. Like I said earlier, he can go from almost completely under final destination, and curve it and land on the stage with someone edge hogging. I would like to see any other characters (other than the ones I listed in my post earlier) do that.

Edit: By the way, who are the "numerous mains" that you have faced that use Lucario? If they suck at KOing, are as easy to gimp and play as bad as you say, they must not be very good representation.

 

[Browny]

meh, still no point arguing. your never going to convince us, or Ivan that it should be changed to a large X, that requires both sides to acknowledge it

 

[Nodrak]

I'm just kinda jumping into this now (havent red esc's post) it's a bit much right now, i'll follow the topic from here though

- Better aerials
Lucario's bair will outrange most of G&W's aerials. Lucario's uair can also outrange G&W's key when used properly.
Also once you're hit with one of Lucario's fairs (just because G&W outranges it doesn't mean it never happens), you're going to get hit by another attack, simple as that. Another fair or nair most likely, from there you may get combo'd further.

- G&W Uair > Lucario Dair
Really? Lucario's dair is countered by G&W's uair? Ok, so Lucario misses a few hits, but Lucario will fall lower and lower each uair, eventually Lucario will be low enough to hit G&W if he keeps trying to uair. If G&W stop's uair-ing he gets hit by dair anyway. (Shield attempts or spot-dodge and Lucario will probably just dair again).
Lucario's dair range > G&W's uair hitbox range (the actual hits not the air pushing people up)

- The bucket to shut down long-distance projectiles
True, but not all Lucario's spam spheres. Besides, spheres can still be used (as a good KO move) while G&W is in an attack animation or as a punish.

- Kills very early to reduce Aura's effectiveness
I have yet to have a G&W kill me early on consistently. Even if we do get killed early on, aura boosts come from that too. Besides, at lower %'s Lucario is a combo monster.

- A recovery that is just asking to be gimped against someone that can easily chase foes offstage
Lucario's upB is a lot harder to gimp then people seem to think. I'll spare you the wall cling lecture, I'm as sick of hearing that argument as you are, but it's still an option on some maps. What I mean is using Lucario's upB to just get into the stage, avoiding the edge entirely. Not every Lucario will aim for the edge, most will go for the stage if you're trying to edgehog. The only time Lucario would have to go for the edge is when he's very low and far away from the stage, which isn't all that common except after a spike.

Lucario is disadvantaged against G&W, of course. It is not a huge advantage though.

Why isn't G&W at a huge advantage?
G&W's air game is predictable, fair and bair are easy to see coming, uair is pretty harmless and dair is extremely predictable, which means we can counter it relatively easily.
G&W's ground game is faster, but in most cases is outranged by Lucario's attacks.
G&W may be good at taking the fight off-stage, but so is Lucario. The tables can be turned for either character very rapidly off-stage.

 

[Miller]

Its sick that your from Ottawa IvanEva, I should see you at ToS5

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

seriously, zelda mains do NOT find earthbounders big problems... it's 6:4 at WORST and is probably not even that bad.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Mr. Escalator did you even read what I posted? Either you didn't or have very little reading comprehension. I'm not going to go over point by point because I already did in my last post but the one thing that you obviously didn't get is the fact about gimping lucario via edge hogging. The ability to curve extreme speed (his up B) makes it very hard to edge hog regardless of whether or not it does damage. Like I said earlier, he can go from almost completely under final destination, and curve it and land on the stage with someone edge hogging. I would like to see any other characters (other than the ones I listed in my post earlier) do that.

Could you come off as a little less arrogant?
Apparently you have very little reading comprehension:

"If G&W plays his cards like he should, then you should be too far away to curve your upB onto the stage, though this might change if a wall is present."

I'm aware of this, but you skimmed my post, without reading it's contents to the fullest. Don't call me out saying I have very little reading comprehension when it's actually yourself who suffers from this. It puts you in a bad light.

I'll go into detail because I do realize that part was short.

G&W sets Lucario up in bad places with sourspotted Dsmash, semispikes from his chef, Dtilts, Ftilts, and sweetspotted fairs. The fact is, Lucario CAN curve the get around any ledgehoggers, but he has to be in a scenario where it's close enough to curve. By curving, he sacrifices distance, and this is obvious. By pushing him too far horizontally, he has to DI close enough to the stage, and by that point, he doesnt have enough distance to curve and reach. At low percents, I doubt G&W is going to be gimping Lucario, but as he gains damage, its a lot more likely for him to push Lucario is a bad place.

Curving is an interesting feature, but G&W can gimp Lucario.
Recovering from straight under Final D is nice, but G&W is going to be gimping you by hitting you horizontally. Theres very little you can do.

I do know this matchup.
Lucario's can recover fine typically, but gimping is definitely viable and possible.

Edit: By the way, who are the "numerous mains" that you have faced that use Lucario? If they suck at KOing, are as easy to gimp and play as bad as you say, they must not be very good representation.

They don't play bad. G&W has too many things in his favor.
You are just pretty clueless on this matchup.
G&W is hard to KO, Lucario can be gimped.
Personal attacks are pretty lame, but attacks at random people who I'm pretty sure are better than you is just awful.

I'm just kinda jumping into this now (havent red esc's post) it's a bit much right now, i'll follow the topic from here though

its ok, I understand.
I'll just respond to your stuff, but you should read back to mine for the full affect.

- Better aerials
Lucario's bair will outrange most of G&W's aerials. Lucario's uair can also outrange G&W's key when used properly.
Also once you're hit with one of Lucario's fairs (just because G&W outranges it doesn't mean it never happens), you're going to get hit by another attack, simple as that. Another fair or nair most likely, from there you may get combo'd further.

G&W's Bair beats it out, and I think his Fair also beats it or ties. It's close, but G&W's Bair beats it. Those are the only moves that should even be challenging the Bair on Lucario. Why use Uair or Dair? Oh, and you CANT combo with fairs. I get hit with one? I DI back and airdodge your next attack.

Oh, and Lucario's Uair never beats the key.
Only the Usmash and the Utilt, I THINK with strict timing, will beat it out.
The Key will beat the Uair if they clash.

- G&W Uair > Lucario Dair
Really? Lucario's dair is countered by G&W's uair? Ok, so Lucario misses a few hits, but Lucario will fall lower and lower each uair, eventually Lucario will be low enough to hit G&W if he keeps trying to uair. If G&W stop's uair-ing he gets hit by dair anyway. (Shield attempts or spot-dodge and Lucario will probably just dair again).
Lucario's dair range > G&W's uair hitbox range (the actual hits not the air pushing people up)

Um, YEAH. Lucario is at a huge disadvantage when G&W starts Uairing.
Lucario won't fall lower and lower, as he's such a floaty character, and you can juggle heavier characters indefinitely with this move. Lucario can't get out of this without airdodges and DIing to the ledge, and I noted how both of these are punishable.

And its pretty obvious that the Dair beats the attacking part of Uair, but thats irrelevant.
I don't think you understand Uair Stalling that well.
Review this topic if you can:
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=174617
Uair stalling REFRESHES moves off of the stale moves queue with the hitbox on the wind. This means his killing and damaging moves are perfectly back to how they should be.

It's also an incredible way to camp.

Though, Lucario's Dair is probably up there as being one of the best.
It's so safe.
But, the uair ruins it's use :S

- The bucket to shut down long-distance projectiles
True, but not all Lucario's spam spheres. Besides, spheres can still be used (as a good KO move) while G&W is in an attack animation or as a punish.

Most of G&W's moves cant be punished with an aurasphere.
Theres almost no reasonable scenario in which a well spaced G&W should ever get hit with the AS.

I've never met a spamming Lucario, to be honest. Just the CG variety that annoy my DK :[

- Kills very early to reduce Aura's effectiveness
I have yet to have a G&W kill me early on consistently. Even if we do get killed early on, aura boosts come from that too. Besides, at lower %'s Lucario is a combo monster.

G&W does kill earlier. Its a fact.
Mr game and Watch is one of the earliest killers in the game.
Aura Boosts DONT come from getting killed. It resets your aura counter meaning you have even MORE trouble equalizing. This is a huge detriment.

Comboing doesnt matter when you really have to kill the G&W to even the score.

plus

comblows don exits

- A recovery that is just asking to be gimped against someone that can easily chase foes offstage
Lucario's upB is a lot harder to gimp then people seem to think. I'll spare you the wall cling lecture, I'm as sick of hearing that argument as you are, but it's still an option on some maps. What I mean is using Lucario's upB to just get into the stage, avoiding the edge entirely. Not every Lucario will aim for the edge, most will go for the stage if you're trying to edgehog. The only time Lucario would have to go for the edge is when he's very low and far away from the stage, which isn't all that common except after a spike.

Thanks for sparing me from the wall cling part xP
I mentioned why G&W can gimp Lucario earlier in this post in response to Kasai.
G&W has many horizontally based knockback moves that push Lucario out of his curving range. At low percents he should be able to return with little problem, unless G&W does multiple fairs, so you don't have to really worry then. It's a different story as he gains percent and is affected by the knockback more.

Lucario is disadvantaged against G&W, of course. It is not a huge advantage though.

Why isn't G&W at a huge advantage?
G&W's air game is predictable, fair and bair are easy to see coming, uair is pretty harmless and dair is extremely predictable, which means we can counter it relatively easily.
G&W's ground game is faster, but in most cases is outranged by Lucario's attacks.
G&W may be good at taking the fight off-stage, but so is Lucario. The tables can be turned for either character very rapidly off-stage.

Predictability means little when your aerials are as safe as G&Ws. The Bair may be easy to see coming, but theres little you can do. Uairing is NOT harmless. Never say that, please. It's one of the reasons I've changed my mind on this matchup. it's so very effective vs Lucario. Dair can be predictable, but theres nothing you can do unless you're on the ground, but then the key can be slowfalled to avoid the usmash.

Range does little to speed, as G&W still has a favorable matchup versus Ike.

Off stage, theres virtually nothing Lucario can do to harm G&W. He's so safe off stage that its ridiculous.

G&W users are in agreement. Lucario is among his easiest matchups. OmegaBlackMage, who's probably among the best G&W's has always thought this matchup was far in our favor. I defended Lucario back then, thats why he wasnt changed then and there. Now, I've changed my mind after all this time.

But

Thanks. The other Lucario mainers have been giving me crap, thinking I don't know this matchup. I know it terribly well. You, however, were pretty courteous and I respect that a lot. I appreciate this civil discussion :D

Djbrowny. I really don't like your remarks. If you think i'm wrong, direct it at my t what you think is wrong. I'll debate with you, but I'm not going to shout between us to find out who seems like they know more. Just point out what you think is off, and I'll elaborate.

@ Esc: I'm still on the fence with G&W vs. Marth. I haven't played any good Marths but I know the matchup isn't easy. I would say the matchup is like 53-47 in favor of Marth. Toon Like is probably 60-40 in favor of TL.

Im not really on the fence. Marth is one of the higher tiered characters that I face the most frequently. It's always felt really equal. Maybe it's slightly in Marth's favor, but still 5:5.

Toon Link is harder definitely.

 

[Nodrak]

Um, YEAH. Lucario is at a huge disadvantage when G&W starts Uairing.
Lucario won't fall lower and lower, as he's such a floaty character, and you can juggle heavier characters indefinitely with this move. Lucario can't get out of this without airdodges and DIing to the ledge, and I noted how both of these are punishable.

I've always managed to fastfall through it, slowly but surely getting down to the point where I can dair. Or simply waiting for the G&W to mess up, but typically I wont bother waiting for that, it's hard to screw up a uair like that.

Most of G&W's moves cant be punished with an aurasphere.
Theres almost no reasonable scenario in which a well spaced G&W should ever get hit with the AS.

Keep in mind no player is ever perfect, G&W users, even the best, still get hit by energy projectiles including AS. There have defiantly been times where G&W users have been at the mercy of a sphere. Whether it's been because of a failed/mistimed attack or they were stuck in animation (dair comes to mind).

I've never met a spamming Lucario, to be honest. Just the CG variety that annoy my DK :[

You're one of the lucky ones >.<

Aura Boosts DONT come from getting killed. It resets your aura counter meaning you have even MORE trouble equalizing. This is a huge detriment.

Trust me on this Lucario's aura increase isn't just based on the damage counter, it is based on stock as well.

I mentioned why G&W can gimp Lucario earlier in this post in response to Kasai.

moved part of it down here

The fact is, Lucario CAN curve the get around any ledgehoggers, but he has to be in a scenario where it's close enough to curve. By curving, he sacrifices distance, and this is obvious. By pushing him too far horizontally, he has to DI close enough to the stage, and by that point, he doesnt have enough distance to curve and reach.

Why would Lucario curve to get around edgehoggers? The only reason he should curve is if he's under the stage and HAS to. Otherwise he can just fly straight. Also as you mentioned before, Lucario is floaty. DI > 2nd jump > DI > upB. Because he's floaty that DI will give him more distance then most characters (though I admit the first DI and 2nd jump may not be there)

Predictability means little when your aerials are as safe as G&Ws.

The Bair may be easy to see coming, but theres little you can do.

Dair can be predictable, but theres nothing you can do unless you're on the ground, but then the key can be slowfalled to avoid the usmash.

DownB Counter? Most Lucario's don't like using it, but we've come a long way in getting the timing right. Besides what about perfect shielding, or spotdodge, or shield grab? (ignore anything with the word shield in it if it's the turtle)

G&W users are in agreement. Lucario is among his easiest matchups. OmegaBlackMage, who's probably among the best G&W's has always thought this matchup was far in our favor. I defended Lucario back then, thats why he wasnt changed then and there. Now, I've changed my mind after all this time.

I agree that Lucario is disadvantaged, but I'm still not convinced that he should be marked as at a huge disadvantage.

Edit: Probably should have thought of this before but I am going back to read your previous post, hopefully I'm not bringing back things that were already discussed in full... which I probably am.