Brawl Character Match-Up chart

[DMG]

Yoshi's OOS is LIMITED, I would admit. But it's by no means BAD, since jab out of shield still works fine. And like I said earlier, Yoshi's steadily deteriorating shield prevents him from being shield-stabbed, which lets him sit there until Wario has some post-lag on an attack, then punish it. Sure, Wario could grab, but like you say, Yoshi will roll a lot if that's the case. All he needs is to be out of grab range and he's fine. The point is moot anyway because most Yoshi users avoid use of the shield anyway and instead rely on airdodges, which work even better for Yoshi than they do for Wario. Think about it: Yoshi can airdodge at the beginning of his second jump, and the result is him flying a good distance away from Wario while still remaining invincible.

How is Yoshi gonna DJ away if he is on the ground in his shield? Yoshi can't airdodge on the ground either, which leaves him with his shield, rolls, and spot dodging. Point is, Yoshi has enough trouble getting Wario off his butt when he is on the ground, and the last thing Yoshi needs is a sub par OOS game.

Airdodged second jump, I talked about it before. It works very well and turns Yoshi's SA frames into invincibility frames. I'm pretty sure even Bite can't get to an airdodging opponent.

Of course Yoshi can airdodge. In reality though, he is still vulnerable to edgeguarding, footstools, and Chomp. SA and Invincibility frames only go so far, they certainly do not give him a fantastic recovery.

The only time I can see them being useful is when Wario is recovering. Even Wario's godly recovery can't be airdodging every second.

Yoshi cannot be throwing Eggs every second as well. Even without air dodging, Wario has great DI that makes it hard to hit him with. COMBINED with his airdodge, it makes it extremely hard to hit him.

If he recovers really high, it only makes it easier for Yoshi to hit him. You have to remember that Yoshi can send eggs a great distance vertically. However, Wario does have the ability to airdodge all the time when he's just floating down to the stage. Remember that Yoshi has that ability too, though... that's been an argument point before.

Yes but Wario can punish the airdodges better than Yoshi can. Yoshi has some negative aspects to his floaty behavior that makes it somewhat hard for him to make it safely to the ground. Wario can fall faster and get to the ground a lot faster than Yoshi can.

The eggs do not go as high as Wario can. Plus, we've already established how he can dodge them well so it shouldn't be an issue.

Do I have to do the move comparison again? Upon actually testing it in the game, ALL of Yoshi's tilts come out faster and have better range than Wario's. If Yoshi can sit back and harass Wario with his superior range, then of course it's just as important. One d-tilt will come out faster than ANY of Wario's ground moves.
For the shield, see my above comments.

Put the Frame Data up then. If you can beat a 5 frame Dtilt or a 3 frame Nair by Wario, then by all means show me some evidence. Wario's fastest tilt, Dtilt, is probably faster than any of Yoshi's tilts unless they somehow take less than 5 frames for a hitbox to show up.

Yoshi's initial dash animation takes him roughly the same distance as any character's roll. His tech chase is just as good as Wario's.
Quickness of moves (Here we go again): F-tilt, d-tilt, and jab can outspeed and/or outrange ALL of Wario's ground options. I did go in and test this. So it's important that this misconception gets out of Wario's head.

Yoshi has a worse tech chase/pressuring game for many reasons, one of them being he doesn't have a move that can literally force your opponent to at least attempt to move (Chomp). Yoshi just doesn't have the same ability as Wario to pressure or chase, plain and simple.

Post your results then, I am interested in what program you used to capture the frame data and what your results were. Seriously, I am almost positive Wario is faster, but I may be wrong.

Yoshi is faster on the ground (Yes he is, go test it for yourself if you don't believe me), outranges Wario in both the ground and air, and outprioritizes Wario in the air. Wario pressures Yoshi's shield and has better priority on the ground. BOTH characters have unpunishable recoveries, great combo abilities, great KO potential, and great air games. I dunno, even without the CG it's looking 6:4 in Yoshi's favor to me...

I put Frame Data up on some of his ground moves and for his Nair. Range is not that big of a deal when you have a fighter that is good at getting close, hitting hard and fast, and can retreat quickly if his approach messes up. Like I have said many times before, range is not very important in close combat when compared to speed. Wario thrives on NOT ONLY getting in close, but by also out speeding most of the cast when he does get in close. AND, he is extremely powerful for a character than is also that fast with his kill moves.

Yoshi's recovery is not even in the same league as Wario's, certainly not by distance or safety.

 

[Blue sHell]

Yoshi has less options than Wario WHEN HE'S SHIELDING. In any other situation, he has just as many options.

No, Yoshi has less options on his DEFENSE in general. And Wario is a character that takes advantage of defensive(or lack of) characters. He can't be offensive forever against Wario he's too overwhelming.

I'm sending you a PM with my brawl code and AIM address for us two could test this out on the field. But after this I think I might just stop myself from entering this Yoshi debate just because it's just so hard to explain Wario on paper because on paper it seems like Wario just isn't too hot. Everything out prioritises him practically, he has no range, no projectile. Yoshi doesn't sound limited at all.

Sorry to leave you alone on the battlefield on this argument dr, but it seems like were at the point that we're just repeating past statements we've said over and over. Hopefully this match will clear things up.

PS: No annimosity at all to either sides of the argument, of course.

 

[gantrain05]

i dont think i've seen anything on lucas vs olimar yet? i never have had the opportunity to play a good olimar and was wondering how the matchup would go? im a lucas main and i play a pretty good lucas, any thoughts?

 

[Kiwikomix]

No, Yoshi has less options on his DEFENSE in general. And Wario is a character that takes advantage of defensive(or lack of) characters. He can't be offensive forever against Wario he's too overwhelming.

What I'm starting to realize with all this discussion is that it's really just based on momentum. Both characters are combo beasts. Once either character gets a hit they'll keep on hitting until the other character scores some damage. The real competition is who can carry the momentum longer. Yoshi's great on offense but bad on defense, and Wario capitalizes on that weakness. The question is, how often can Wario succeed in making Yoshi defensive?

Off Subject: That Yoshi you played in the Wario vids section was pretty awful...

PS: No annimosity at all to either sides of the argument, of course.

Of course.

Also, did you send me a PM? I didn't get it
And I hope you live nearby the Midwest, my game has a tendecy to lag intensely.
Johns: I am a lackluster Yoshi playing against one of the better Warios... hmm.

 

[DanGR]

i dont think i've seen anything on lucas vs olimar yet? i never have had the opportunity to play a good olimar and was wondering how the matchup would go? im a lucas main and i play a pretty good lucas, any thoughts?

I'm not sure. I've only played my brother's lucas, and it's a slaughter.(he's not real good) Lucas is harder than ness though.

 

[talkingbeatles]

talking beatles- I'm not really sure why squirtle<CP. Go over to the PT matchup chart thread to ask for their explanation of the matchup. They've got a pretty good chart for themselves.

God!
Finally some acknowledgment. Heh, thank you DanGr and IvanEva for mentioning my concerns. Um, I'll check the PT boards. I've brought the question up on the Falcon boards and I think I'm not alone in having problems with Squirtle.
I'll come back with more info.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

I made some of the text red and underlined to attract attention there. Now, if the Eggs are easy to dodge (you just said they were easy to dodge), then how do they have a large standing in this matchup? The answer is: they don't. Plain and simple.

We don't need to "theoretically" dodge all the time. We can just airdodge whenever they throw out an egg. His egg toss has little impact in this particular matchup, just admit that maybe you were wrong.

They do, and you can't even understand that.
the first part, because you seem so strung up on it, is a disclaimer. I added that because inperfect scenarios, Wario can airdodge eggs with ease. In a scenario where they are both on the opposite ends of the stage, wario should be able to airdodge those because he isnt under pressure.

Now, I'm going to have to explain this because you didn't seem to get the gist of what I said.

Not every situation is ideal, and there are many situations in an actual match where a forced airdodge is a huge advantage for Yoshi. When committing to an airdodge, you have to consider where Wario is after it ends. He will still DI back to the stage if he DI's in his airdodge while off the stage, for example. I think Blue sHell claimed that Yoshi couldn't punish anything out of the airdodge, but thats flat out wrong. After the dodging of an egg, another egg is on its way. Wario can't perform a second air dodge in this time, because he lands. He has to shield or sidestep it now. After he does this, guess what? Another egg. Wario is going to get pressured if he doesn't approach. Hanging on a ledge wont work, either. Back to the point, Wario can get punished after the dodge, and this is also apparent because of the landing lag. He will airdodge as the egg is coming, and all the time Yoshi will be able to run up and perform a grab depending on where Wario DI's.

Recovery is the main place you will see the egg toss. Wario typically wants to recover high, and Yoshi will be able to capitalize on this with eggs. Wario commits himself when he's on the bike and this is a prime oppurtunity to lay an egg or two. Airdodge? Wario is still going to be moving towards the stage, meaning that even if he airdodges the first one, he's moving into a second. Maybe he isnt moving into another egg toss, but actually approaching to use a high punishing move like Dair, or Fair.

Also, if Wario survives a vertical kill from an Usmash or the like, he's still in the worse position. He can airdodge an egg, and Yoshi can take advantage of where Wario is placed after that. He can DI to the sides, but Yoshi can get there with little trouble, or toss an egg with little effort on his part.

The fact is, the egg is actually very good in this matchup. The only matchup where it really fails is one where the character is too fast to aim, Sonic, or where the have the more spammable projectile. If Wario is going to airdodge every egg, he's punishable. If he takes it, he's caught in another.

It's a win/win situation with the egg as long as it's not abused.
I'm not going to admit that Im wrong when Im not, and when you don't know what you're talking about.

Duh, but Wario can abuse those 2 things probably better than any character in the game. That is what we are trying to get at.

What I just got at is that to abuse airdodges is a very bad strategy, and that DIing still doesnt keep him from getting punished.

We already stated/agreed that his Egg Toss is not that good of a move because Wario can evade them very well. Wario can evade them by simply recovering really high or by avoiding them even without air dodging. And the eggs only refresh moves if they hit, and since we have already agreed that Wario can dodge them well why would he be getting damaged/hit that much?

Wario's path is not linear. The only thing that is truly predictable is the bike and even then we can choose when to use it at an opportune time. Air dodging off stage is no problem for Wario unless he is somewhat low and/or has no bike jump left and has to rely on Upb.

The egg toss isn't bad. It's not agreed upon.
Recovering really high is a bad scenario for Wario, as I mentioned.
Dodging without airdodging probably wont work because of the huge splash of the egg and the many trajectory options. Again, we havent agreed, and the eggs will land just fine.
Especially on the bike. There is no opportune time to use the bike considering the range and quickness on the egg toss.

Wario is still faster on the ground. Range is not very relevant or important compared to speed in close combat, correct? If you disagree, tell my why. Well then, even though Yoshi has better range, he is still slower than Wario and this makes his slightly vulnerable on the ground when they are close up. Yoshi also has worse OoS options than Wario, which further solidifies the fact that Yoshi is not so hot on the ground.

Slower than Wario? Kiwi noted that Yoshi had some quicker options.
Range IS VERY IMPORTANT.
Here, I'll let you in on why.

G&W is slower in the air, and probably on the ground minus his Dtilt.
Yet he still has the advantage because he can space so effectively that he can't get pressured. Yoshi is similar in that he can space with his range. He DOES have quicker options.

Out of shield options?
Theres a mechanic called Powershielding. It gives him IASA frames to use any move he wants. While he can't do much aside from Jab out of his shield this isn't that relevant.

Wario doesn't shut down Yoshi's ground game. Thats a stupid claim. Yoshi does beat Wario's airgame, which is much more important. If Yoshi is constantly in the air, then its silly to claim that a ground game means much.

What he means is that Wario definitely has a better tech chase and pressure game than Yoshi and that he can get around most of Yoshi's counter attacks while he is pressuring. Yoshi is limited pretty bad in his shield, his roll isn't that spectacular, and he doesn't have too quick of moves that can disrupt Wario while he is pressuring.

Kiwi says Yoshi has quicker options.
Those disrupt Wario.
My quote wasn't about techchasing, so don't argue that.

Who said anything about Boost Smashes? Seriously Mr. Escalator, you have made up or misinterpreted things about 3-4 times in just one post about what other people have said. That is a lot of mistakes IMO, considering you even quoted him and had a chance to read it word for word.

ahahaha
You're a dolt.
This is like the 50th time you havent read something correctly.

I quoted him because he brought up the UNREASONABLE claim that Wario could punish Yoshi if he spotdodges. I made a counter scenario to him that if Yoshi spotdodges "maybe a boost usmash" that Wario wouldnt be able to punish this spotdodge. I know he didnt bring up Boost Usmashing, it was what I brought up, idiot.

Seriously, learn to read.

His pivot grab is still slower than most of Wario's ground attacks and guess what else? You have to pivot it, which in itself takes at least a frame or two at the very least. Besides, his Grab is still a bit laggy afterwards and it makes him a target for punishment.

Pressuring is dependent on the players AND the characters. Individual players can only go so far, and Individual characters can only go so far. It would be safe to say, however, that certain characters can pressure better than some of the others. Wario is one of those characters that can pressure well, while Yoshi lacks a bit in that area. Plus, all of those things you mentioned can also be applied to Wario's game, so don't make it sound like Yoshi is the only one that benefits from Spot Dodging or Power Shielding.

Uh, no?
The fact is, that Wario has to pressure to be effective. Running away and pivoting is an amazing deterrent to a chase. The pivot grab isn't that laggy, and it comes out incredibly fast, quicker than probably most Wario has.. Pivoting is incredibly quick, too, so I don't get you. I bet you've never encountered Yoshi's pivot in a match.

I said, and you can look at the bit YOU quoted, that some characters have a better pressuring game, but the player is the one who actually pressures. Learn to read the parts YOU quote.

And I didn't say Wario can't incorporate those into his game, nor did I imply it. If you read it correctly, I noted that those game mechanics put the clamp on pressuring, nothing about Yoshi being the only one to use them right.

TL deals with pressure better than Yoshi, and even TL's have problems with Wario's pressure. That means that Yoshi's troubles should be greater than TL's. That is what he was getting at, not to go offroad and start talking about TL lol.

Shutup. This is his argument, not yours. I said TL has nuances to why he is disadvantaged to Wario, and pressuring is probably only ONE of the reasons. They are different characters, so don't keep this topic of TL going. I said drop it.

I think the only thing that is possibly keeping this matchup at neutral is the release grab Yoshi has. Even with that, we still need to test it a bit more for better accuracy. If you think Yoshi has the advantage, then by all means, go ahead and state your reasons. Just don't include things that we have honestly rebutted; I will not keep on telling people how Egg Toss is not that good in this matchup.

You havent rebutted anything.
You have, however, ignored things that were common sense and have failed to read the bits you QUOTED, making you seem like you're clueless.

I've stated my reasons, BUT I guess you ignored those too.

Egg toss is important, and you still don't get it.
It is very good in this matchup.
And I'm getting tired talking to a wall who doesn't learn.

Also

I'm only going to debate one of you.
You brought Blue sHell in, so let HIM argue the matchup. I'm not going to face two of you in a discussion, so either he goes or you do.

Sorry Blue sHell. Dr is the issue with arguing this matchup civilly.
I want to debate with you, but he makes it a point to jump on in and not read a **** thing.
And I'm not going to face you.
Why?
I'm not a Yoshi main.
He's like the fourth character I sue, and I mainly use G&W.

And this matchup is so god**** far in Yoshi's matchup if the release grab is as effective as I found it to be. Seriously, if its as good as I think, we're going to have to start discussing whether he desrves a large advantage or not.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Zelda mains are in agreement:

Zelda is much more than Din's fire. Countering Din's fire does not in any way mean that you counter Zelda.

G&W counters din's fire, but is also exceptional on many levels, thusly, he is good Vs. Zelda.

Lucas and Ness, on the other hand, only counter din's fire (and only when it's used stupidly) and are not considered, by the zelda boards at least, to be big threats to zelda.

Ness is outclassed by zelda enough on most levels that the BEST he's shooting for here is an even matchup it might even be a bad matchup for him, despite Psy Magnet.

Lucas, on the other hand, is undecided. Some people give zelda a slight edge, some people give that edge to lucas... but, regardless, it's close.

so, in conclusion:

Mr. Game And Watch > Zelda (still)
Lucas = Zelda (requires further investigation to determine better what the matchup should be, but the closest estimate now seems to be "=")
Ness = Zelda (at best... it might even be Ness < Zelda)

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Lol
Ness is amazing
And I doubt any of these numerous mains have faced someone who's good with Ness.
Lucas is far more common

Go to the Ness boards and maybe get some matches recorded.
I don't even see your reasoning for v Ness.
Just that Zelda is more than Dins Fire (duh...?) and that Ness has Psi Magnet.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Lol
Ness is amazing
And I doubt any of these numerous mains have faced someone who's good with Ness.
Lucas is far more common

Go to the Ness boards and maybe get some matches recorded.
I don't even see your reasoning for v Ness.
Just that Zelda is more than Dins Fire (duh...?) and that Ness has Psi Magnet.

simply this: Nes does not have any significant advantage on zelda. Only an idiot is going to Din's fire camp and heal Ness. His projectiles are all slow enough to reflect.

he's lightweight

He's easily gimped.

He can;t outrange zelda.

He lacks decent approaches Vs. Zelda.


It's obvious, the only reason Ness was ever put as a zelda counter is because he can absorb Din's fire. Zelda mains cry foul. Zelda is still an excellent character even without din's fire. Ness just doesn't beat her...

Idiots say this:
Ness can absorb Din's fire so Zelda is forced to approach, so Zelda < Ness

that's just stupid. Ness can't force Zelda to approach either. Neither one has an exceptional time approaching the other.

You've yet to give any reason Ness SHOULD be considered to have an advantage on Zelda.

It's not my burden to prove the matchup should be equal. It should be ASSUMED to be equal until it is PROVEN that it is not.... otherwise I'd arbitrarily say that Zelda has a huge advantage on every character until yuo could prove that it wasn't the case.

The Ness > Zelda matchup that is currently on the board is clearly the result of some people jumping the gun and thinking that just because you can absorb Din's fire, then you are advantaged vs. Zelda.... this is false and foolish

 

[cutter]

Actually, G&W should have a large advantage against Zelda. Not only does the Bucket shut down Din's fire completely, but G&W's huge, lingering disjointed hitboxes pose big problems for Zelda. She has a very hard time getting through his Bair and Dtilt. And since Zelda is very light, she dies extremely early to G&W's ridiculously powerful smashes.

And there is someone that would like to give rebuttal that G&W also has a huge advantage against Lucario?

 

[nuro]

I don't usually go in this section of swf but I need to just tell you guys something. These types of threads should not exist.

Player skill is the biggest factor in this game. Anyone can say this character is better than that character but it doesn't mean they are right. Besides half of the people in this thread likely have never done well in a tournament, ergo, don't know what the hell they are saying.

 

[cutter]

Of course player skill is what decides a lot of matches, but when you have players of roughly equal skill level, matchups and tier lists start to become relevant because both assume the players are of equal (or just about) skill level.

The best Captain Falcon player can win every single match he plays against not-so-great opponents, but when placed with those of equal skill level as him, he will fare MUCH MUCH harder.

 

[DMG]

They do, and you can't even understand that.
the first part, because you seem so strung up on it, is a disclaimer. I added that because inperfect scenarios, Wario can airdodge eggs with ease. In a scenario where they are both on the opposite ends of the stage, wario should be able to airdodge those because he isnt under pressure.

Ok, do I seriously have to get a Yoshi main in here for you to stop going on about the Egg Toss? I will quote a Yoshi mainer in a thread I made on the Wario boards:

I guess ill tell u my opinion since im a yoshi main who fights warios =/ Eggs arent too much trouble for wario he can SHAD to dodge them, or just shield, but hes so fast, so its hard to predict where to throw the egg. Also, yoshi shouldnt be getting gimped by the bite, against wario, they should always be airdodging in their double jump. Wario can have a somewhat difficult time approaching yoshi due to his rangy bair and his amazing pivot grabs, so see what he does when u approach with a fair and pull out, and if he pivot grabs u can try to lure out another one then punish. A big advantage wario has in this matchup is that wario is amazing at pressuring shields, and yoshi is amazing at not being able to overcome shield pressure. If the yoshi doesnt airdodge while recovering gimp his ***. Also for kill moves, watch for the fsmash, it pulls back.

There... A Yoshi main, who has more experience in this matchup than you do, just admitted that the eggs are not that much of a problem for Wario. So please, can we end the Egg Toss argument?

The fact is, the egg is actually very good in this matchup. The only matchup where it really fails is one where the character is too fast to aim, Sonic, or where the have the more spammable projectile. If Wario is going to airdodge every egg, he's punishable. If he takes it, he's caught in another.

It's a win/win situation with the egg as long as it's not abused.
I'm not going to admit that Im wrong when Im not, and when you don't know what you're talking about.

What I just got at is that to abuse airdodges is a very bad strategy, and that DIing still doesnt keep him from getting punished.

The egg toss isn't bad. It's not agreed upon.

Look above to my Yoshi main quote. If you do not admit that you were wrong, after seeing that, then IDK what it will take for you to realize that maybe you are not THAT experienced enough to truly represent Yoshi.

Slower than Wario? Kiwi noted that Yoshi had some quicker options.
Range IS VERY IMPORTANT.
Here, I'll let you in on why.

G&W is slower in the air, and probably on the ground minus his Dtilt.
Yet he still has the advantage because he can space so effectively that he can't get pressured. Yoshi is similar in that he can space with his range. He DOES have quicker options.

Out of shield options?
Theres a mechanic called Powershielding. It gives him IASA frames to use any move he wants. While he can't do much aside from Jab out of his shield this isn't that relevant.

Wario doesn't shut down Yoshi's ground game. Thats a stupid claim. Yoshi does beat Wario's airgame, which is much more important. If Yoshi is constantly in the air, then its silly to claim that a ground game means much.

I provided Frame Data, while neither of you have actually provided statistics.

I wanna see you powershield Wario's Dair and get away with a counter attack before he hits you with another part of the Dair. Or try power shielding his Chomp. Point is, Power shielding is helpful here but certainly not enough to say Yoshi is ok with his OOS choices.

Kiwi says Yoshi has quicker options.
Those disrupt Wario.
My quote wasn't about techchasing, so don't argue that.

You said Yoshi can handle Wario's pressure and that his tech chase game is equal to Wario's. (Either you or Kiwi said that, so I'm addressing this to who said that.) Burntsocks seems to disagree, I wonder why? Surely he is more informed than you are?

ahahaha
You're a dolt.
This is like the 50th time you havent read something correctly.

I quoted him because he brought up the UNREASONABLE claim that Wario could punish Yoshi if he spotdodges. I made a counter scenario to him that if Yoshi spotdodges "maybe a boost usmash" that Wario wouldnt be able to punish this spotdodge. I know he didnt bring up Boost Usmashing, it was what I brought up, idiot.

Seriously, learn to read.

I asked you to stop making up stuff. He never said anything about Boost Smashes and I was surprised YOU brought it up.

I'm not going to resort to petty insults. I am above that.

Uh, no?
The fact is, that Wario has to pressure to be effective. Running away and pivoting is an amazing deterrent to a chase. The pivot grab isn't that laggy, and it comes out incredibly fast, quicker than probably most Wario has.. Pivoting is incredibly quick, too, so I don't get you. I bet you've never encountered Yoshi's pivot in a match.

I said, and you can look at the bit YOU quoted, that some characters have a better pressuring game, but the player is the one who actually pressures. Learn to read the parts YOU quote.

And I didn't say Wario can't incorporate those into his game, nor did I imply it. If you read it correctly, I noted that those game mechanics put the clamp on pressuring, nothing about Yoshi being the only one to use them right.

It is a deterrent of sorts but it certainly has noticeable flaws that can be exploited. And please, questioning MY experience in this matchup is silly considering you said things like "Yoshi's Fsmash is faster than Wario's Fsmash."

Shutup. This is his argument, not yours. I said TL has nuances to why he is disadvantaged to Wario, and pressuring is probably only ONE of the reasons. They are different characters, so don't keep this topic of TL going. I said drop it.

Hey no reason to get hostile towards me. Calm down, it is just a debate/discussion.

You havent rebutted anything.
You have, however, ignored things that were common sense and have failed to read the bits you QUOTED, making you seem like you're clueless.

I've stated my reasons, BUT I guess you ignored those too.

Egg toss is important, and you still don't get it.
It is very good in this matchup.
And I'm getting tired talking to a wall who doesn't learn.

Also

I'm only going to debate one of you.
You brought Blue sHell in, so let HIM argue the matchup. I'm not going to face two of you in a discussion, so either he goes or you do.

Sorry Blue sHell. Dr is the issue with arguing this matchup civilly.
I want to debate with you, but he makes it a point to jump on in and not read a **** thing.
And I'm not going to face you.
Why?
I'm not a Yoshi main.
He's like the fourth character I sue, and I mainly use G&W.

And this matchup is so god**** far in Yoshi's matchup if the release grab is as effective as I found it to be. Seriously, if its as good as I think, we're going to have to start discussing whether he desrves a large advantage or not.

I have now rebutted some things you and Kiwi were stating. Apparently other people think I am far from clueless and that I am not a wall that cannot learn, so can we just drop the name calling/degrading comments?

You and Kiwi were arguing for Yoshi, and I am not gonna tell one of you guys to leave just because 2 people is "too much" or something. And I think I have debated this with good manners. You just called me clueless and said I was like a wall that never learns. HOW civilized is that Mr. Escalator? Seriously, don't call me names or say stuff about me because I am not in the mood to get into a personal shout fest. So lay off the insults please.

You are not a Yoshi main, nor do you have that much experience with Yoshi because you basically admitted it in the bold text. If you were proficient/knowledgeable with Yoshi, I would think you would jump at the chance to prove me or Blue sHell wrong. So stop pretending to be a reliable authority on Yoshi.

It is not in Yoshi's favor. If a Yoshi main agrees that Yoshi has the disadvantage, then just drop it there and don't keep fighting a lost battle.

 

[Kiwikomix]

I don't usually go in this section of swf but I need to just tell you guys something. These types of threads should not exist.

Player skill is the biggest factor in this game. Anyone can say this character is better than that character but it doesn't mean they are right. Besides half of the people in this thread likely have never done well in a tournament, ergo, don't know what the hell they are saying.

Thanks for telling us what people have told us a billion times. Does it ever occur to you that people in this thread (including me) come here because they want to LEARN stuff? I, for one, haven't ever been to a tournament (one of the downs of living in the midwest) but I consider myself good enough to go to one without being completely humiliated. Suppose I want to get better at the game? This is where SWF comes in, so that I can learn more about my character and other characters through intelligent debate.

Get off your high horse, bud.

Edit: You also used "ergo" wrong in that sentence. Talk much?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Actually, G&W should have a large advantage against Zelda. Not only does the Bucket shut down Din's fire completely, but G&W's huge, lingering disjointed hitboxes pose big problems for Zelda. She has a very hard time getting through his Bair and Dtilt. And since Zelda is very light, she dies extremely early to G&W's ridiculously powerful smashes.

And there is someone that would like to give rebuttal that G&W also has a huge advantage against Lucario?

he's a very tough matchup, I'll give you that, but to have an extreme disadvatage is a powerful thing to say. I know he's good vs. zelda... but zelda's still got a fighting chance in the matchup

 

[habaker91]

umm...the chart disappeared?

 

[nuro]

I didnt talk in this thread to be on a high horse and I dont think u guys shuold try to be on one either.

All i am saying is that its dumb how you guys analyze the game when its unnecessary. If you really want to learn more about the game u should be playing it instead.

And its funny how u guys use say "What if two people had roughly the same skill level" because that is impossible. Everyone has a different way of playing and no one is the same lol.

 

[Kiwikomix]

I didnt talk in this thread to be on a high horse and I dont think u guys shuold try to be on one either.

All i am saying is that its dumb how you guys analyze the game when its unnecessary. If you really want to learn more about the game u should be playing it instead.

And its funny how u guys use say "What if two people had roughly the same skill level" because that is impossible. Everyone has a different way of playing and no one is the same lol.

It's people like us who figure out how to counterpick characters.
It's people like us who develop the best strategies to beat people.
You know those guides in each character section that help new people understand the characters? It's people like us who write those.
And, finally, it's BECAUSE of people like us that this site even exists. People that like to play the game but also want to understand what they're doing. Working it out on paper does help you win, believe it or not.
So, if you choose to believe that people like us are unnecessary, that's fine. But it's us who help keep this site and the entire Smash community alive.

Sorry if it sounds like I'M on the high horse this time, but really, it's important to understand that there is a point to this kind of discussion.

 

[DanGR]

STH- are you serious? every other zelda main besides you regards lucas as her hardest matchup. Period. Ness is similiar, but it's not as bad. They both eat her alive.

 

[Blue sHell]

Sorry Blue sHell. Dr is the issue with arguing this matchup civilly.
I want to debate with you, but he makes it a point to jump on in and not read a **** thing.
And I'm not going to face you.
Why?
I'm not a Yoshi main.
He's like the fourth character I sue, and I mainly use G&W.

And this matchup is so god**** far in Yoshi's matchup if the release grab is as effective as I found it to be. Seriously, if its as good as I think, we're going to have to start discussing whether he desrves a large advantage or not.

I'm trying to state what a high end Wario player AND TWO high end Yoshi players think about the Yoshi vs Wario matchup and apperently the point just isnt coming across. I'm sorry to Dr but I'm backing down on the argument early. If you are saying things like "think, we're going to have to start discussing whether he desrves a large advantage or not" then you're still not even slightly understanding what I've been trying to say.

I've backed down from the argument, but just remember that 2 highly ranked Yoshi mains and one highly ranked Wario main say that the matchup is leaning to Wario's favor.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

STH- are you serious? every other zelda main besides you regards lucas as her hardest matchup. Period. Ness is similiar, but it's not as bad. They both eat her alive.

yeah um... no.

Most zelda mains regard G&W or marth as her hardest matchups... neither of the earthbounders "eat her alive" least of all ness.

 

[bigman40]

Okay, my first post here, and I'm wondering what's been said about Yoshi.

 

[Kasai]

And there is someone that would like to give rebuttal that G&W also has a huge advantage against Lucario?

It was discussed a while back. Lucario's range as well as disjointed hitboxes on basically all of his attacks keep it at only a small advantage.

 

[DanGR]

simply this: Nes does not have any significant advantage on zelda. Only an idiot is going to Din's fire camp and heal Ness. His projectiles are all slow enough to reflect.

Ok, so Zelda shouldn't sit back and spam din's. It's dumb. Ok, now what? Zelda has to approach Ness b/c he can spam pkfire. Zelda sucks at approaching. That's it. I'm not dumb for saying this. That's like you saying that just b/c sheik outprioritizes every move of Olimar's that it's not advantageous for Sheik. That's ridiculous. Zelda's main strength lies in her wicked defensive game. You take that away-she sucks. really. It's that simple.

he's lightweight

He's easily gimped.

He can;t outrange zelda.

He lacks decent approaches Vs. Zelda.

This all applies for Olimar also. You need to prove it and state why any of it matters.

It's obvious, the only reason Ness was ever put as a zelda counter is because he can absorb Din's fire. Zelda mains cry foul. Zelda is still an excellent character even without din's fire. Ness just doesn't beat her...

Idiots say this:
Ness can absorb Din's fire so Zelda is forced to approach, so Zelda < Ness

that's just stupid. Ness can't force Zelda to approach either. Neither one has an exceptional time approaching the other.

Din's can be countered with the absorbtion and Zelda has nothing against Pkfire. Sure, she can reflect it, but it won't ever gain enough momentum for it come back and punish Ness. Also, ness can bait Zelda into using the reflector and punish. It's simple. Ness defensive game>Zelda's bad approach game. I'm not saying that's everything, but you have yet to give me anything else saying why Zelda=Ness.

I'm also in disagreement with the chart over Zelda>Pit. Pit forces her to approach with the arrows, and his quick moves can counter her smashes much easier than other characters can.

 

[DMG]

Okay, my first post here, and I'm wondering what's been said about Yoshi.

Not much, we did a Yoshi vs Wario debate (might still be ongoing, IDK if anyone else wants to keep this debate up or not.) As for other Yoshi matchups, I have no idea who has been discussing those.

 

[bigman40]

Well, in my opinion, I think the matchup is even. Wario can pressure well, but falls at the chance at getting edgegaurded by Yoshi. Also, if a Wario fails to pressure, then it'll become very though to get in close to get a hit off with ETS and pivot grabs.

 

[cutter]

It was discussed a while back. Lucario's range as well as disjointed hitboxes on basically all of his attacks keep it at only a small advantage.

Lucario's range and disjoints are good, but you don't seem to realize that G&W also has very good range and disjoints as well, mainly his Dtilt, Fair, Bair, and Dair. Probably the only move that Lucario can outreach G&W on is his Fsmash, but you'll be wanting to keep it fresh especially since G&W kills very early. Exactly how is Lucario going to be able to consistently get through G&W's turtle?

Add the bucket, G&W Uair > Lucario Dair, and G&W's retardedly powerful smashes and I don't see how this isn't a large advantage for G&W.

 

[Kasai]

Lucario's range and disjoints are good, but you don't seem to realize that G&W also has very good range and disjoints as well, mainly his Dtilt, Fair, Bair, and Dair. Probably the only move that Lucario can outreach G&W on is his Fsmash, but you'll be wanting to keep it fresh especially since G&W kills very early. Exactly how is Lucario going to be able to consistently get through G&W's turtle?

Add the bucket, G&W Uair > Lucario Dair, and G&W's retardedly powerful smashes and I don't see how this isn't a large advantage for G&W.

If I remember correctly, Lucario's aerials outrange GW's (other than uair and dair). His range on ftilt also outranges GW. The bucket isn't much of a problem because not only will lucario not be spamming Aura spheres but in many aura sphere situations, the lag that the bucket has will cause GW to be punished. Smashes are powerful but lucario's range allows him to avoid them and punish. Lucario has disjointed hit boxes on all but 1 or 2 of his moves. He can space and play defensively.

 

[Browny]

if G&W has a large advantage over lucario, he has a large advantage over EVERYONE.

lucarios b/fair either go through or collide with the turtle. besides marth how many characters have attacks that can do that? suddenly G&W's all-powerful powerful approach is shut down. and lucario doesnt have to put himself at risk when going for the KO, aura sphere is a great move for getting KO's, and the one time G&W misses with a smash/anything, hes going to get one. bucketing AS is a lot easier said than done, especially when lucario can combo to it immediately out of his fair, unless of course you plan on bucketing instead of airdodging at every chance you get

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Ok, so Zelda shouldn't sit back and spam din's. It's dumb. Ok, now what? Zelda has to approach Ness b/c he can spam pkfire. Zelda sucks at approaching. That's it. I'm not dumb for saying this. That's like you saying that just b/c sheik outprioritizes every move of Olimar's that it's not advantageous for Sheik. That's ridiculous. Zelda's main strength lies in her wicked defensive game. You take that away-she sucks. really. It's that simple.


This all applies for Olimar also. You need to prove it and state why any of it matters.



Din's can be countered with the absorbtion and Zelda has nothing against Pkfire. Sure, she can reflect it, but it won't ever gain enough momentum for it come back and punish Ness. Also, ness can bait Zelda into using the reflector and punish. It's simple. Ness defensive game>Zelda's bad approach game. I'm not saying that's everything, but you have yet to give me anything else saying why Zelda=Ness.

I'm also in disagreement with the chart over Zelda>Pit. Pit forces her to approach with the arrows, and his quick moves can counter her smashes much easier than other characters can.

PK fire does not force an approach. it lacks the range to do that... and it can be refleced even after it contacts Zelda. Zelda may be great because of her incredible defensive game, but saying that she cannot be agressive is a fallacy. Just watch any darkmusician Vid. he's one of the best Zeldas out there and is HIGHLY agresive, especially for a zelda.

Ness is overall a fairly weak character in comparison with most of the rest of the cast... he simplyisn't threatening enough to be considered a bad matchup for zelda... not like you'd ever counterpick him againt her anyway because Ness has such a hard time against sheik.


Oh, and I agree... Zelda = Pit... no way zelda has much of an advantage, if any, here.

 

[Browny]

Ness is overall a fairly weak character in comparison with most of the rest of the cast... he simplyisn't threatening enough to be considered a bad matchup for zelda... not like you'd ever counterpick him againt her anyway because Ness has such a hard time against sheik.

hmmm?

3 of his aerials are very strong finishers, strongest throw in the game, strongest up-b attack, very high damaging fsmash (24% uncharged sweetspot wtf)

ness is just as much a powerhouse character as zelda, capable of KO'ing <40% and bthrow is a guaranteed kill against zelda ar around 115%, dont even try to DI, it only makes it worse

 

[mr_kennedy44]

hmmm?

3 of his aerials are very strong finishers, strongest throw in the game, strongest up-b attack, very high damaging fsmash (24% uncharged sweetspot wtf)

ness is just as much a powerhouse character as zelda, capable of KO'ing <40% and bthrow is a guaranteed kill against zelda ar around 115%, dont even try to DI, it only makes it worse

Unfortunately for Ness users successfully hitting with the PKT2 is difficult. Not many people are going to let themselves get hit by that after they see what Ness is doing.

I disagree that he is just as much a powerhouse as Zelda though. Ness has only a few K.O. moves outside of his b-throw. Zelda has many more K.O. moves at her disposal.(f,b,d-air, f-smash, u-smash, u-tilt- u-air, f-tilt, Din's Fire)

 

[metahunter]

metaknight and kirby are snake counter they can omnigay
heres a vid for those who dont know what it is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhmRoAz_4CQ

 

[Rhubarbo]

Meta Knight doesn't have an advantage over Bowser on this list...wow.

 

[Kasai]

metaknight and kirby are snake counter they can omnigay
heres a vid for those who dont know what it is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhmRoAz_4CQ

Only if snake picks up a grenade...which he won't if he knows about it.

 

[Brinzy]

PK fire does not force an approach. it lacks the range to do that... and it can be refleced even after it contacts Zelda. Zelda may be great because of her incredible defensive game, but saying that she cannot be agressive is a fallacy. Just watch any darkmusician Vid. he's one of the best Zeldas out there and is HIGHLY agresive, especially for a zelda.

Ness is overall a fairly weak character in comparison with most of the rest of the cast... he simplyisn't threatening enough to be considered a bad matchup for zelda... not like you'd ever counterpick him againt her anyway because Ness has such a hard time against sheik.


Oh, and I agree... Zelda = Pit... no way zelda has much of an advantage, if any, here.

Why would you reflect a PK Fire that has already contacted Zelda? Do that against me, and you'll be punished, because I'll come at you from the top while you're still doing Nayru's Love.

Zelda can be aggressive... but so can Ness. Zelda might have those lightning kicks, but good luck landing them each and every time you go with them - Ness's fair is gonna stop her air game if she doesn't get her own fair out in time, and if she misses the sweetspot, she gets punished. Zelda has a great uair, so she might be able to prevent a few spikes... however, Ness can choose to come at her from the side and fair or bair her, he can use any of his PK attacks to disrupt Zelda's recovery, and he can force her into a position where she is limited to warping in one or two directions. On the other hand, Zelda can't do anything to Ness from above, so both of them are in virtually the same position. Zelda's fair, bair, and dair all have sweetspots - they're all great if they hit, but they'll all get her punished if they don't, especially against someone who does great in the air like Ness. She has nair, but again, Ness can fair or even bring out his own nair, which will more than likely strike before hers. Ness > Zelda in the air.

It's true that she can gimp Ness by canceling his PK Thunder with Din's Fire... but if a player catches onto this, he can simply TAKE the Din's Fire and recover from the blast. If he's high enough, he can absorb it and make it back anyway.

On the ground, it's Zelda's solid range vs. Ness's overall speed. She has a great dtilt, but so does Ness, and his will rack up damage way faster than Zelda's, and if she trips, she won't DI out of it until she takes at LEAST 20% from it. Zelda can rack up damage too, but it's easier to DI out of this than it is to DI out of Ness's dtilt. Zelda's side-tilt and utilt have great killing potential... but the problem here is that for utilt to hit, Ness is gonna have to be very close to her - nobody will approach Zelda from above, so she's probably gonna have to hit from the ground, and Ness players like to space because they were given the skills to space. Zelda has a dangerous dSmash due to its speed and its angled knockback. However, her fSmash can still be escaped with a little DI, and the same goes for her uSmash. They all have great power, but she's so easily screwed by DI that it isn't even funny. Ness, on the other hand, has fast tilts. Dtilt, as I said before, racks up damage. utilt and side-tilt come out fairly fast (especially utilt), and they can be used similarly to Zelda's dSmash. If you've got a rolling opponent, you uSmash and dSmash with Ness. They can even keep him safe... so much for Zelda's "aggressive" game. Fsmash, sweetspotted, does 24%. Uncharged. No "DI outta this" crap involved.

She can't approach him effectively to save her life. Her best bet is to wait for Ness to come in at her, but Ness can play the same game with her. Ness, however, plays a better offense than Zelda does. It's true what you said - Din's Fire does not make Zelda. However, Din's Fire is a huge part of Zelda's defensive and baiting game, and by... well, not removing, but limiting it, you're hurting a huge part of her defensive ability. Then Ness can pester her with PK Fire to get her to Nayru's Love, where he'll swoop in and strike. I mean, he can short-hop his own PK Fire, so reflecting it can easily get you punished. Their throws are almost even, except Ness's forward throw has a reliable distance at low %s, and his back throw kills faster than all of Zelda's throws. Plus he has shorter lag on that.

All in all, I still believe that Ness > Zelda, but it's not that big of an advantage. On the flipside, I do not believe that Zelda runs even with Ness because Ness can play a better defensive offense game and aerial game than Zelda. She's not god awful against him, but things do not look in her favor.

Unfortunately for Ness users successfully hitting with the PKT2 is difficult. Not many people are going to let themselves get hit by that after they see what Ness is doing.

I disagree that he is just as much a powerhouse as Zelda though. Ness has only a few K.O. moves outside of his b-throw. Zelda has many more K.O. moves at her disposal.(f,b,d-air, f-smash, u-smash, u-tilt- u-air, f-tilt, Din's Fire)

It's not as difficult as you think. I've killed players trying to jump over the edge and gimp me with PKT2, and I've flat out hit players with it on stage because they don't expect it to come out at that moment, and they have a lapse in their trains-of-thought... but by then it's too late because that PK Thunder moves fast.

Ok, you have 9 moves, and I'll throw in d-smash for 10.

Ness has:

- b-throw
- uair
- bair
- nair
- fair (chasing)
- dair
- PKT2
- PK Flash/Pulse/Whatever you know it by
- Fsmash
- Side-tilt


... 10 moves. This is, of course, not counting the yo-yo skills that can kill as well, since most Ness players will kill you with something else before Zelda hits that %. utilt has killing potential too, but I placed it with the yo-yos.

Ness has the same killing potential as Zelda, and the only noticeable knockback change with sweetspotting is his bair (which is hella easier to sweetspot with than any of Zelda's moves), his dair (which will knock you far away anyway if you miss the actual spike), and his Fsmash, which kills un-sweetspotted. Let's see three of Zelda's un-sweetspotted aerials do that.

 

[Dpete]

metaknight and kirby are snake counter they can omnigay
heres a vid for those who dont know what it is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhmRoAz_4CQ

Snake is one of Kirby's worst match-ups, even with that trick.

AND! The Kirby community is currently revising our own matchup chart. Hopefully the TC will take notice and revise his chart accordingly. The old Kirby thread listed on this thread is out of date, the new one can be found here: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=176103

/kirby ad

 

[Kiwikomix]

Well, in my opinion, I think the matchup is even. Wario can pressure well, but falls at the chance at getting edgegaurded by Yoshi. Also, if a Wario fails to pressure, then it'll become very though to get in close to get a hit off with ETS and pivot grabs.

I think part of what we decided is that Wario wins if he manages to pressure Yoshi into making mistakes. Both characters are surprisingly similar in terms of what they're capable of, but here's the parts that make a difference:

Yoshi: Better range, better priority, faster
Wario: Pressures better,

And no, Dr. Mario Guy, I don't have frame data for you. But after having watched Yoshi's f-tilt and d-tilt in super-slo-mo, I'm sure they come out at frame three, if not sooner.

Not much, we did a Yoshi vs Wario debate (might still be ongoing, IDK if anyone else wants to keep this debate up or not.) As for other Yoshi matchups, I have no idea who has been discussing those.

I think the discussion is over... Escalator is now ignoring you, sHell backed out... Unless you want it to be a you vs me argument, I'm all for putting the argument on hiatus until the CG is developed. Although I think we should keep it at neutral for now

 

[Kasai]

Looking over the chart, I started wondering what exactly makes Lucario have a disadvantage against rob...I can't really think of anything specific in particular. His aerials are pretty easily telegraphed, his projectile game is somewhat limited, his dsmash is good but I'm pretty sure lucario's fsmash can out range it. Honestly I can't think of anything. I think that this match up should probably be even.