Brawl Character Match-Up chart

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Also, being named after that lame rapper=Fail

All of his songs after Right Thurr were pure trash.

 

[kitsu]

i will admit that this charct is helpful but overall it comes down to experience of gameplay and which character you know how to use

 

[JrdnS]

Also, being named after that lame rapper=Fail

All of his songs after Right Thurr were pure trash.

qtf. you didnt think right thurr was trash?

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

qtf. you didnt think right thurr was trash?

The beat and background effects made the song at least enjoyable. the actual lyrics were trash.

 

[Kiwikomix]

I think we can at least compromise and say that the Yoshi/Wario matchup is neutral... and if there's no arguments there, please take note of it, Ivan.

Anyway, next.... how does Yoshi not have the advantage on Boozer and Falcon?

 

[missingnomaster]

The chart says that Yoshi has advantage over gdorf, and bowser and falcon go even...

 

[Kiwikomix]

Apparently I can't read.
Post edited.

 

[DMG]

I think we can at least compromise and say that the Yoshi/Wario matchup is neutral... and if there's no arguments there, please take note of it, Ivan.

Anyway, next.... how exactly do Ganon, Falcon, and Boozer have the advantage on Yoshi?

Aww, but I really still think Wario has the advantage, like 6-4 seems accurate.

I have no idea why they have advantages over Yoshi, although I can see maybe why Ganon would, with his range and power.

 

[DanGR]

I think Olimar>Charizard. Are there any PT mains here that think otherwise? I heard it's nuetral somewhere b/c of his fair and the fire. So what? Bowser's fair goes through everything Olimar has and he also has the fire. Olimar>Bowser though. He just combos too well against the biggies. I pulled a 120% combo on bowser the other day. If wasn't very DI-outable. I was able to throw a pikmin>grab and then string two fair>dthrow cgs into an upair that didn't give him much knockback cuz I was able to miss that last hit. I used nair as I fell, then upair>upb or somethin similiar to that afterwards to finish it off. It was sick, and all b/c he's big.

 

[gantrain05]

wait what.

Underestimating Yoshis air game never ends well. fastest horizontal movement, most damaging dair in the game, fair spike, uair powerful KO move, nair combo breaker and bair as a near unpunishable approach. Id say yoshi has one of the best air games behind G&W and marth

while all that may be true, you only pointed out the GOOD points in his arials, his Fair is slower than most any other characters arials, his Dair is not very easy to land to its full potential and has almost no priority as goes for the rest of his arials, its all about speed and priority.

 

[DMG]

while all that may be true, you only pointed out the GOOD points in his arials, his Fair is slower than most any other characters arials, his Dair is not very easy to land to its full potential and has almost no priority as goes for the rest of his arials, its all about speed and priority.

Lets not argue about Yoshi vs Wario anymore. We have exhausted that debate for long enough.

@ DanGR: Olimar definitely has the advantage over Charizard. I don't think we even need a real debate to see why but Im willing to defend Olimar if someone wants to argue for Charizard.

 

[DanGR]

Lets not argue about Yoshi vs Wario anymore. We have exhausted that debate for long enough.

That sucks. This seems to happen a lot...

@ DanGR: Olimar definitely has the advantage over Charizard. I don't think we even need a real debate to see why but Im willing to defend Olimar if someone wants to argue for Charizard.

thanks, but I'd like to see a charizard main's side of the matchup before we jump to conclusions. I don't see any heavy character>Olimar, but Charizard?

 

[DMG]

That sucks. This seems to happen a lot...


thanks, but I'd like to see a charizard main's side of the matchup before we jump to conclusions. I don't see any heavy character>Olimar, but Charizard?

Well we can argue about it more but I honestly think we have covered just about everything except Frame Data for that matchup. I do like a good debate though, it just seems like it's already been discussed in depth far enough.

I would like to hear from a Charizard main too. What will it take to get one to come here though?

 

[UltiMario]

Can someone PLEASE tell me how DK has an advantage over MK?
Sure, has some good Smashes and stuff, but I was expecting Equal with him.


Edit:
555th post, awesome?

 

[kamekasu]

Can someone PLEASE tell me how DK has an advantage over MK?
Sure, has some good Smashes and stuff, but I was expecting Equal with him.


Edit:
555th post, awesome?

DK far outranges and overpowers Metaknight.

His aerial/throw game is good enough to get MK off the stage quickly, and DK's edgeguarding game, three spikes cancel out MK's amazing recovery. DK's B-air outprioritizes almost all of MK's aerials.

Sure, Metaknight can combo DK at low percents but it's hard to get kills off. D-smash is good for getting him off the stage, but the range on his Up-B makes edgeguarding that much harder. Since Metaknight's entire game is predicated on being able to get off-the-stage kills, DK is a bad matchup.

Not to mention that his smashes have incredible range and can kill MK at as low as 80-90% without DI.

 

[gantrain05]

i agree that DK is a good MK counter, but dk is going to have to play a far better game than MK to win still. DK can't really afford to make many mistakes but MK is hard to punish with someone like DK. and DK's Bair does outprioritize MK but he's gotta have some crazy reflexes to hit a good MK cuz he's got a ton of speed on all of his arials. i wouldn't say its a huge advantage but maybe a slight advantage to dk if not neutral.

 

[talkingbeatles]

Ok...
I know it seems like people want to move on Charizard v Olimar or DK v MK, but does anyone have any comments on the Falcon v Squirtle? I have been complaining about that one for a little while...

 

[the guy you dont know]

Poor ganondorf, doomed to be the character everyone thinks has the disadvantage against everyone >_>

i find it unfair to think like that though, because as a person who uses ganondorf competitively, next to my metakngiht, i know he has the advantage over a couple people. i just dont think its fair that its assumed he's bad against everyone because almost everyone sucks with him and gets ***** by the other characters. just cause he's hard to use doesnt mean that once you use him well he still has the disadvantage >_>


~my opinion~

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Having played Badgey and Stomps a good number of times I think I'll spit my input on the battle.

Woah!
It's Blue sHell!
I guess Im now debating with you?

First off eggs. They're a great projectile, and they mess up alot of the aerial characters. Except Wario, lol. You have to realize how absolutely ridiculously good his airdodge is. It's super safe to do, and he still retains his mobility in the air WHILE he is doing it, so it's not like Yoshi could run up and grab/attack Wario once he sees him falling back down from an airdodge.

I'm not here to argue the ease of dodging eggs. They are easy, especially for Wario. The thing is, however, the egg is still incredibly important to this matchup. In the beginning, he will start spacing with it to make you approach. Yes, you can theoretically airdodge forever, but chances are that you will make a mistake at some point and get hit a few times. Yoshi doesn't need to run up, as he has the superior position by staying in place. Wario has to approach, giving Yoshi a good time where he can shoot off a few eggs, you airdodge, and he can punish your proximity, and don't say he can't.

Airdodging and DIing isn't Wario exclusive.

Now, the eggs also play a vital roll at inopportune times. These times would be while Wario recovers and while he makes aerial approaches. Recovering isn't limited to off stage recoveries. They could be something as simple as Wario making his way down after being sent straight up vertically. Yoshi can force airdodges by shooting his eggs, and thats one reason why eggs help give Yoshi the better positioning. Wario has a great recovery, but it does follow a pretty linear path. It's predictable, but not too many have ways dealing with it up close. Thankfully, Yoshi doesn't need to chase (he can, as he has a spike, a Nair that pushes you much farther out, and a Dair to mess up your Bike and out prioritize your UpB), because of his egg toss. You don't want to airdodge too much off the stage, thats just bad for a fast faller like Wario.

The eggs refresh his moves and pepper on damage, so they are indeed great here.
Maybe not spammable, but integral nonetheless.

Upsmash outprioritizes Dair and Fair. And grabrelease to Upsmash is a free kill at higher up %s. Also, ALL of Yoshi's aerials out prioritize Wario's. This is what Yoshi has over Wario.

This isn't all Yoshi has, but it's nice that Yoshi's Uair beats Wario's Dair.
The CG, possibly infinite.
I did some testing, with a real person, no CPU's, and I could perform the inescapable grabbing for many times in a row; the percent didnt make a difference. I actually had so much trouble doing this consistently until I remembered a quicker way to grab. While holding down the Shoulder Button, and pressing A, I could do it with no real issues. Shield grabbing is the only way I could get to do this, and I don't know if this is a requirement.

The timing wasn't strict with SGing, at all.
There was one issue, and there is a timeframe where if you input too early/late (dunno which) that the shield would briefly appear, giving Wario a chance to DI slightly back where he could jump, or forward where he would hit Yoshi's blindspot. This didnt happen often, and it doesnt seem percent based, just based on timing. I could get chains of upwards of 80 damage, and I would mess up.

If perfected, its a free kill.
Why?
Yoshi will be able to go to 0-999% (theoretically) and finish off with an inescapable Usmash.

BUT

I want more testing on this. I'm pretty sure my results are accurate, but there is a margin of error.

Escalator you're main argument seems to be that Yoshi is faster than Wario and he is too close range to do anything. If everyone went by this basis though Wario would be garbage, lol. TONS of people are faster than him, and he is the closest ranged character in the game. Yet he has the advantage vs many other characters that have tons more range+speed over him.

That wasn't my main argument. What you quoted was a reply to Dr.
He claimed Yoshi had no speed when I brought up that he had range.
I said he had both.

Wario is all about preasuring. Yoshi can't counterattack or even grab(too slow and Wario will always evade from it or followup with something faster than his grab) from shield. Saying that you will not put yourself in the position that Wario is preasuring your shield or techchasing your rolls is simply impossible too. Spotdodges will result in getting bitten or Naird. Even though Yoshi has more horizontal clearing speed doesn't mean he could chase down or even run away from Wario's mobility. Toon Links even have huge problems keeping Warios out of there face and Toons keep away game is far better than Yoshi's(no offense).

Ok, what you just did is kinda weird. You told me that I shouldnt say that I wouldnt put myself in a place to get pressured or tech chased, YET you also claimed that Wario will ALWAYS evade a grab or punish it. You made a situation thats unreasonable while requesting I don't do the same.

You actually go on to make a few more unreasonable situations, like that Yoshi will get Nair'd or Chomped if he chooses to spotdodge.

Listen, no match, no matter the skill level, is perfectly choreographed. If I spotdodge your attempt at maybe a boost usmash, it's weird to claim that you will now punish this dodge with an instantaneous chomp or SH Nair.

Oh, and Yoshi's pivot grab is amazingly fast. The tongue has a lingering grab hitbox, similar to Olimar's, but the pivot makes it faster than Oli's. Olimar still has better range. Point is, the grab isn't as slow as most think of it.

Pressuring is dependent on players. It's a game where you try to make the opponent maybe slip up or force them to make a string of bad choices. ANYONE can avoid pressure, whether it's Bowser or MK. Teching provides instant relief when they hit the ground, Powershielding is similar to a parry because you can react instantly, and spotdodges can fit into many situations. While some characters provide a better stab at pressuring, its reliant on how it's executed. Yoshi has tools to deal with pressure, with speed, spacing, and a very nice air game, coupled with generic game mechanics.

Yoshi deals rather well with pressure compared to other characters.
and TL isn't really the topic at hand.
There are probably many nuances to consider that might not be present in this matchup.
Lets just stick with these two.

Fsmash is not slow.... I can't even comprehend how you deducted that, lol. It has almost instant startup, and very little cool down, much less startup than Yoshi's and about the same cool down as Yoshi's. Because of this, Wario's mobility, and Yoshi's inability to do much from shield, what is stopping Wario from aerialling Yoshi and landing behind him and following up with a Fsmash and being completely safe afterward, OR Nairing to chase a roll or punish a spotdodge.

It's not really an underestimate of Wario's Fsmash as it was an overestimate of Yoshi's. I could visualize Wario's rather well, but I made the error of thinking Yoshi's was of similar speed. The cool down, I think, is still a little bit longer than the cool down on Yoshi's, but that doesnt matter.

And the second part offers some pretty unrealistic scenarios.
Lets lay down the facts before we start maing assumptions on playstyles.

And just because all of Yoshi's aerials out prioritize Wario's doesn't mean that Yoshi could safely SH aerial all day like Wario can. Yoshi's aerials last longer, and he stays in the air longer due to his floatiness. If he does he'd get punished real bad if Wario just blocks, jumps out of the way, or anything of the sort.

Um...?
Yoshi's aerials have lingering hitboxes, higher priority compared to Wario's, Yoshi can move to the side better than Wario, and stays in the air longer. All this actually indicates the opposite: Yoshi can actually space his aerials in a safer manner than Wario can. SH Bair from Yoshi gives him the mobility to move into wario, where lets assume he'll shield, and then back out of his range. It's similar to G&W's Bair approach. It's hard to punish if you don't have something that beats it.

Yoshi sets himself up that it's harder to punish afterwards.

In the end the Wario vs Yoshi matchup is alot closer than alot of people might believe. But even Badgey, who tries to abuse the grabrelease Upsmash thing any chance he gets, agrees that Wario doesn't give Yoshi much room to breathe when he's on the ground and eggs are easier to avoid than they would be for other characters. I'd give the matchup a 6-4(favoring Wario). Hope this helps you guys out.

I agree that it's a VERY neutral matchup. Yoshi dominates the air, but Wario is a momentum character. He can string some things together to compensate for his inability to challenge Yoshi's air game. The egg game fits in just well.

It's slightly in Yoshi's favor, as he has better options, UNTIL Wario gets close enough to work his magic. If Yoshi can abuse the spacing, he's in the better.

Unfortunately...

Theres the CG to consider.
I noted it earlier in this post that it needs more looking into, but things may prove to be grimmer in this matchup. The timing ISN'T ridiculous, but the damage is pretty bad for Wario.
At this point, it should be left as a neutral matchup, that of a stalemate so we don't argue evry little stupid thing.
But
It's looking to be in Yoshi's favor because of this release grab.

 

[gallax]

i was looking at the pika mathups and i agree with almost al of them. good work. i am completing a matchup thread for pika and when it is finished i will come back and compare it again. although i really do not see any changes occuring. the one matchup that does stick out in my mind is olimar though. imo it is a fairly even matchup. but we will see.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Can someone PLEASE tell me how DK has an advantage over MK?
Sure, has some good Smashes and stuff, but I was expecting Equal with him.


Edit:
555th post, awesome?

A major part of it is that Metaknight can't really approach DK at all.

Even Mach Tornado is outright beaten by a massive number of DK moves (vB, and ftilt being the easiest to point out).

In my expirience, overall Metaknight lacks a safe approach against DK, and doesn't have a way of forcing DK to approach because of a lack of projectiles (yes, I know MK is a projectile... but in this case, it's not enough), so ultimately it's on DK's terms.

Granted, this isn't a "pick-up and play" advantage, new DKs and new Metaknights aren't gonna have this, but more advanced players will find DK more and more effective.

Edit: 911th post... *moment of silence*

 

[the guy you dont know]

A major part of it is that Metaknight can't really approach DK at all.

Even Mach Tornado is outright beaten by a massive number of DK moves (vB, and ftilt being the easiest to point out).

In my expirience, overall Metaknight lacks a safe approach against DK, and doesn't have a way of forcing DK to approach because of a lack of projectiles (yes, I know MK is a projectile... but in this case, it's not enough), so ultimately it's on DK's terms.

Granted, this isn't a "pick-up and play" advantage, new DKs and new Metaknights aren't gonna have this, but more advanced players will find DK more and more effective.

Edit: 911th post... *moment of silence*

What you say here is true, im pretty much amazing with my metaknight and i agree that metaknight has the disadvantage on DK for multiple reasons. also, in mine and acouple other people i know who play metaknight, agree that metaknight has a lot of trouble on a skilled marth player.

 

[the guy you dont know]

im going to re say this because i want atleast SOMEONE to see it and say somethign abuot my thuoghts.





Poor ganondorf, doomed to be the character everyone thinks has the disadvantage against everyone >_>

i find it unfair to think like that though, because as a person who uses ganondorf competitively, next to my metakngiht, i know he has the advantage over a couple people. i just dont think its fair that its assumed he's bad against everyone because almost everyone sucks with him and gets ***** by the other characters. just cause he's hard to use doesnt mean that once you use him well he still has the disadvantage >_>


~my opinion~

 

[adumbrodeus]

im going to re say this because i want atleast SOMEONE to see it and say somethign abuot my thuoghts.





Poor ganondorf, doomed to be the character everyone thinks has the disadvantage against everyone >_>

i find it unfair to think like that though, because as a person who uses ganondorf competitively, next to my metakngiht, i know he has the advantage over a couple people. i just dont think its fair that its assumed he's bad against everyone because almost everyone sucks with him and gets ***** by the other characters. just cause he's hard to use doesnt mean that once you use him well he still has the disadvantage >_>


~my opinion~

As a ganondorf secondary, it's unfair but true.

If you can find me an advantageous match-up, believe me, I'd be incredibly happy.

Granted my ganondorf beats all the local metaknights and Marths and such, but still, it'd be nice to have a concrete advantage.

 

[the guy you dont know]

As a ganondorf secondary, it's unfair but true.

If you can find me an advantageous match-up, believe me, I'd be incredibly happy.

Granted my ganondorf beats all the local metaknights and Marths and such, but still, it'd be nice to have a concrete advantage.

Me and a couple friends (2 of them also play a good ganondorf) agree he has a good advantage over captain falcon, i know couple other people he does fairly well against but im not certain it'd be called an advantage or anything.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Me and a couple friends (2 of them also play a good ganondorf) agree he has a good advantage over captain falcon, i know couple other people he does fairly well against but im not certain it'd be called an advantage or anything.

The captain isn't much of an advantage... Regardless, he's too fast. At a competitive level, a falcon will never be forced to take a hit from ganondorf and can safely approach.

Ganondorf does have a few neutrals however.

 

[cutter]

After looking through both characters, I think G&W has a big advantage over Lucario. There are 3 big things that make Lucario cringe when fighting G&W:

- Aura Sphere and Force Palm are bucketable.
- G&W's Uair completely nullifies Lucario's excellent Dair.
- G&W kills very early, taking away one of Lucario's biggest strengths (Aura).

Lucario preys on characters that struggle at KOing because of his Aura. But against G&W, his smashes and Fair can easily kill at below 100%. This really takes away Lucario's main attribute that gives him advantages over other characters.

I'm well aware that Lucario's attacks have deceptive range because of the disjointed hitboxes in his aura, but G&W's attacks just completely outclass them, namely his Dtilt, Bair, and Dair which all have massive disjointed hitboxes and crazy priority.

Lucario's Dair is a fantastic move, but unfortunately for him, G&W's Uair stops it in its tracks. That's another good thing about Lucario that is taken away by G&W.

In short, G&W has everything that Lucario does not want to see in a match: punishment of projectile use, kills early to stop Aura, and his Uair >>> Lucario's Dair.

 

[the guy you dont know]

All falcon has over ganondorf is a faster running and jumping speed, all their attacks come out almost exacly the same speed expect ganon is more powerful. CF combos better but ganon throws hard hits that he can still combo with making it a tough match for a captain falcon.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

I argued against this change a while ago when OBM offered his insight
but with the development of how crazy the Uair Stalling is with refreshing moves
I think this might need to be changed to big advantage.

But bucketing the Force Palm is a very bad idea.
The bucket leaves you in considerable lag, and the worst thing you can do is get lagged up at point blank.

I still want to hear from some Lucario's.
but it''s likely that this is another strong matchup for G&W.

 

[Grunt]

Poor ganondorf, doomed to be the character everyone thinks has the disadvantage against everyone >_>

Falcon is worse.

i find it unfair to think like that though, because as a person who uses ganondorf competitively, next to my metakngiht, i know he has the advantage over a couple people.

Like?

i just dont think its fair that its assumed he's bad against everyone because almost everyone sucks with him...

NO.
do not, DO NOT, assume everyone else sucks and only you are good wih a certain character.
This is the noobiest thing anyone could ever do.

 

[the guy you dont know]

Your right it sounds nooby but i just didnt really know how to word it right. my mistake.

but yeah, falcon is screwed more than ganon lol.

and i never ment it as everyone else sucks with character i use, because i know a lot of people who are better then me with him and others, i didnt mean it that way you dont know this but im definatly not the type to say anything rude like that. i ment it as more people who suck with him, or cant cope with his brawl play say he sucks and fails as a character which isnt true XD

 

[adumbrodeus]

All falcon has over ganondorf is a faster running and jumping speed, all their attacks come out almost exacly the same speed expect ganon is more powerful. CF combos better but ganon throws hard hits that he can still combo with making it a tough match for a captain falcon.

*bolding added

That's it right there, that's what kills ganondorf. It doesn't matter what else is the issue, falcon has the ability to approach and retreat out of range unpunished because of this. Draw out an attack and strike during the post-lag, or grab, or do a low ending lag attack (since falcon's ending lag tends to be better), and Falcon has options.

Ganondorf can't do any of the above, he absolutely has to depend on Falcon leaving an opening. Granted, he can punish the opening well, but he's too slow to have a legitimate chance to beat falcon on the offense without very good Yomi (mindgames).

No, Falcon has the advantage here, running and jumping speed is all he needs.

 

[gantrain05]

*bolding added

That's it right there, that's what kills ganondorf. It doesn't matter what else is the issue, falcon has the ability to approach and retreat out of range unpunished because of this. Draw out an attack and strike during the post-lag, or grab, or do a low ending lag attack (since falcon's ending lag tends to be better), and Falcon has options.

Ganondorf can't do any of the above, he absolutely has to depend on Falcon leaving an opening. Granted, he can punish the opening well, but he's too slow to have a legitimate chance to beat falcon on the offense without very good Yomi (mindgames).

No, Falcon has the advantage here, running and jumping speed is all he needs.

wrong, don't play stupid with ganon and falcon doesn't have a chance, you arent going to go throwing around Fsmashes and warlock punches and be like ZOMG UR GOIN DOWN FALCON HUZZAH!!!! no see anyone who plays ganon knows that they really have to play a more defensive game and force falcon to approach, ganon can easy Uair a falcon who is jumping around at a zillion miles per hour, sorry but one of my friends played falcon exclusively in melee and he plays him all the time in brawl and he's not bad, but he never beats my ganon.

 

[the guy you dont know]

ehh. i guess your right once i think about it, i gotta get a vid of me vs. a CF onto youtube then i'd show you a bit of my thoughts from there cause it'd show my explaining a bit better.


but yes, your right, i was mistaken. anyway im going to bed i have an exam tomorow.

 

[adumbrodeus]

wrong, don't play stupid with ganon and falcon doesn't have a chance, you arent going to go throwing around Fsmashes and warlock punches and be like ZOMG UR GOIN DOWN FALCON HUZZAH!!!! no see anyone who plays ganon knows that they really have to play a more defensive game and force falcon to approach, ganon can easy Uair a falcon who is jumping around at a zillion miles per hour, sorry but one of my friends played falcon exclusively in melee and he plays him all the time in brawl and he's not bad, but he never beats my ganon.

Look, I never lose to my local falcons ether. But that's not the point, I don't generally lose because they're worse players. I can bait them into doing something I can punish, or they don't space well enough, or something.

However, that ganondorf players can beat captain falcon players doesn't prove that ganondorf is at an advantage. If a falcon is the same level as you, he shouldn't fall into your uairs. Granted, this comes up only when both players are good enough. The falcon player has to be clean and space well, otherwise he's open to punishment.

If they're both at that level, the Ganondorf player just doesn't have anything to work with. If falcon is good with his spacing, that uair is gonna be dodged and punished.

 

[DMG]

I'm not here to argue the ease of dodging eggs. They are easy, especially for Wario. The thing is, however, the egg is still incredibly important to this matchup. In the beginning, he will start spacing with it to make you approach. Yes, you can theoretically airdodge forever, but chances are that you will make a mistake at some point and get hit a few times. Yoshi doesn't need to run up, as he has the superior position by staying in place. Wario has to approach, giving Yoshi a good time where he can shoot off a few eggs, you airdodge, and he can punish your proximity, and don't say he can't.

I made some of the text red and underlined to attract attention there. Now, if the Eggs are easy to dodge (you just said they were easy to dodge), then how do they have a large standing in this matchup? The answer is: they don't. Plain and simple.

We don't need to "theoretically" dodge all the time. We can just airdodge whenever they throw out an egg. His egg toss has little impact in this particular matchup, just admit that maybe you were wrong.

Airdodging and DIing isn't Wario exclusive.

Duh, but Wario can abuse those 2 things probably better than any character in the game. That is what we are trying to get at.

Now, the eggs also play a vital roll at inopportune times. These times would be while Wario recovers and while he makes aerial approaches. Recovering isn't limited to off stage recoveries. They could be something as simple as Wario making his way down after being sent straight up vertically. Yoshi can force airdodges by shooting his eggs, and thats one reason why eggs help give Yoshi the better positioning. Wario has a great recovery, but it does follow a pretty linear path. It's predictable, but not too many have ways dealing with it up close. Thankfully, Yoshi doesn't need to chase (he can, as he has a spike, a Nair that pushes you much farther out, and a Dair to mess up your Bike and out prioritize your UpB), because of his egg toss. You don't want to airdodge too much off the stage, thats just bad for a fast faller like Wario.

We already stated/agreed that his Egg Toss is not that good of a move because Wario can evade them very well. Wario can evade them by simply recovering really high or by avoiding them even without air dodging. And the eggs only refresh moves if they hit, and since we have already agreed that Wario can dodge them well why would he be getting damaged/hit that much?

Wario's path is not linear. The only thing that is truly predictable is the bike and even then we can choose when to use it at an opportune time. Air dodging off stage is no problem for Wario unless he is somewhat low and/or has no bike jump left and has to rely on Upb.

That wasn't my main argument. What you quoted was a reply to Dr.
He claimed Yoshi had no speed when I brought up that he had range.
I said he had both.

Wario is still faster on the ground. Range is not very relevant or important compared to speed in close combat, correct? If you disagree, tell my why. Well then, even though Yoshi has better range, he is still slower than Wario and this makes his slightly vulnerable on the ground when they are close up. Yoshi also has worse OoS options than Wario, which further solidifies the fact that Yoshi is not so hot on the ground.

Ok, what you just did is kinda weird. You told me that I shouldnt say that I wouldnt put myself in a place to get pressured or tech chased, YET you also claimed that Wario will ALWAYS evade a grab or punish it. You made a situation thats unreasonable while requesting I don't do the same.

What he means is that Wario definitely has a better tech chase and pressure game than Yoshi and that he can get around most of Yoshi's counter attacks while he is pressuring. Yoshi is limited pretty bad in his shield, his roll isn't that spectacular, and he doesn't have too quick of moves that can disrupt Wario while he is pressuring.

Listen, no match, no matter the skill level, is perfectly choreographed. If I spotdodge your attempt at maybe a boost usmash, it's weird to claim that you will now punish this dodge with an instantaneous chomp or SH Nair.

Who said anything about Boost Smashes? Seriously Mr. Escalator, you have made up or misinterpreted things about 3-4 times in just one post about what other people have said. That is a lot of mistakes IMO, considering you even quoted him and had a chance to read it word for word.

Oh, and Yoshi's pivot grab is amazingly fast. The tongue has a lingering grab hitbox, similar to Olimar's, but the pivot makes it faster than Oli's. Olimar still has better range. Point is, the grab isn't as slow as most think of it.

Pressuring is dependent on players. It's a game where you try to make the opponent maybe slip up or force them to make a string of bad choices. ANYONE can avoid pressure, whether it's Bowser or MK. Teching provides instant relief when they hit the ground, Powershielding is similar to a parry because you can react instantly, and spotdodges can fit into many situations. While some characters provide a better stab at pressuring, its reliant on how it's executed. Yoshi has tools to deal with pressure, with speed, spacing, and a very nice air game, coupled with generic game mechanics.

His pivot grab is still slower than most of Wario's ground attacks and guess what else? You have to pivot it, which in itself takes at least a frame or two at the very least. Besides, his Grab is still a bit laggy afterwards and it makes him a target for punishment.

Pressuring is dependent on the players AND the characters. Individual players can only go so far, and Individual characters can only go so far. It would be safe to say, however, that certain characters can pressure better than some of the others. Wario is one of those characters that can pressure well, while Yoshi lacks a bit in that area. Plus, all of those things you mentioned can also be applied to Wario's game, so don't make it sound like Yoshi is the only one that benefits from Spot Dodging or Power Shielding.

Yoshi deals rather well with pressure compared to other characters.
and TL isn't really the topic at hand.
There are probably many nuances to consider that might not be present in this matchup.
Lets just stick with these two.

TL deals with pressure better than Yoshi, and even TL's have problems with Wario's pressure. That means that Yoshi's troubles should be greater than TL's. That is what he was getting at, not to go offroad and start talking about TL lol.


I think the only thing that is possibly keeping this matchup at neutral is the release grab Yoshi has. Even with that, we still need to test it a bit more for better accuracy. If you think Yoshi has the advantage, then by all means, go ahead and state your reasons. Just don't include things that we have honestly rebutted; I will not keep on telling people how Egg Toss is not that good in this matchup.

 

[Blue sHell]

Mmm, Mr. Escalator you're looking more into situations rather than the actual battle and scheme of things(the actual options at all given moments). If we would both look at things that way I could just say technically all of Yoshi's aerial approaches could be shielded/dodged then punished whereas almost none of Wario's approaches in the air could not be because thats how he plays. But thats not looking into absolutely everything that happens in a real fight.

For example Wolf out prioritises Wario like crazy in the air and he's a very quick aeirial fighter. Yet despite this, Warios and the majority of the Wolves now in the Wolf boards agree that Wario has the edge in the battle. Knowing what out prioritses what in any battle is very useful and does make for nice tools, but it's just a small situation in the large scheme of things. Wario just has soooo much other stuff going for him, and not being able to be punished for more than half the things he does is definitely one of them.

And of course you spotdodge an approach you can't get punished for it, thats clear. I'm saying that due to Yoshi's OOS(out of shield) game being so bad that he has no choice but to spotdodge and roll Wario's crap alot more than he would other chars to avoid his severe preasuring game(Dair > Bite or Dair > Nair could be done every single time to people with this kind of bad OOS game that still choose to shield through all the preasure). And being forced to spotdodge more often than others is practically begging the Wario to Bite alot more and fulljump dair bombs(Both which would simply wreck spotdodgers).

But even after saying that it's not like Yoshi has no options at all. But it does mean that he has alot alot less than Wario does. That's why we are trying to say that the match isn't overwhelmingly in Wario's favor, but that he defnitely does have the advantage (Wario 6-4 Yoshi).

And I know Upsmash after grabhits is absolutely awesome, but remember that it really isn't hard at all for a Wario to jump after a recovering Yoshi and Bite him during his secondjump, even if he's way out there, and still make it back after gimping Yoshi like such at lower %s than I think you realize.

I hope this all will come across good, but if not, to further understand what I mean and since you are the main contributor in the Yoshi side of the argument, could I just propose that we just exchange friend codes and I show you what I mean about Yoshi dealing with Wario's preasure and avoiding eggs?

When you get back on could you please PM me your brawl code and anytime you could be on. I could log on real quick around the afternoon.

 

[DanGR]

talking beatles- I'm not really sure why squirtle<CP. Go over to the PT matchup chart thread to ask for their explanation of the matchup. They've got a pretty good chart for themselves.

 

[IvanEva]

Oh, and Ivan, I notice you no longer link to the spreadsheet version of the chart. May I ask why?

I figured that it was terribly outdated. Since the link itself never changed I was unaware that you were updating it (assuming you were updating it). PM me with the Link again if you are indeed updating it as it goes.

I greatly prefer Phanna's method of organization to this one.
It's much more readable and accurate. "Large Advantage" and "Small Disadvantage" are way too vague, and the graphics for each one are too similar.

What's vague about "Large Advantage", "Small Disadvantage", etc.? I don't find his chart all that readable with all of those numbers and such. As for accuracy, numbers give a semblance of accuracy but in no way is that method more reliable. Take a look at this thread. Opinions abound. What makes a match-up 9-1 instead of 8-2? In the end it's just trying to say the same thing, Large Advantage in this example.

The graphics for this chart, of course, do suck. They're just placeholders until the chart is nice and 'finalized'. Then I'll strive to make it much more readable and pretty.

i disagree with the chart

Be more specific.

i will admit that this charct is helpful but overall it comes down to experience of gameplay and which character you know how to use

Through my experiences with the gameplay (err...) I know that I should use King Dedede against annoying Donkey Kongs.

Ok...
I know it seems like people want to move on Charizard v Olimar or DK v MK, but does anyone have any comments on the Falcon v Squirtle? I have been complaining about that one for a little while...

As far as I know, it's because of Falcon's long legs (up air and neutral air) being effective at keeping Squirtle away... or something... Ummm... Anybody else?

see anyone who plays ganon knows that they really have to play a more defensive game and force falcon to approach, ganon can easy Uair a falcon who is jumping around at a zillion miles per hour.

Ganon isn't defensive by choice, he just has very limited offensive capabilities. Forward B only get's you so far, especially since Falcon players seem to think that they're actually falcons, jumping around like crazy. Ganondorf's up air is good but if that's the only response to a jump happy Falcon, it's going to be dodged and punished. As well, what's stopping a Falcon from being defensive and forcing Ganondorf to approach? Falcon would be able to up air Ganondorf just as much if Ganondorf could jump around as well. Which he can't.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Two arguments! *cracks knuckles*

And of course you spotdodge an approach you can't get punished for it, thats clear. I'm saying that due to Yoshi's OOS(out of shield) game being so bad that he has no choice but to spotdodge and roll Wario's crap alot more than he would other chars to avoid his severe preasuring game(Dair > Bite or Dair > Nair could be done every single time to people with this kind of bad OOS game that still choose to shield through all the preasure). And being forced to spotdodge more often than others is practically begging the Wario to Bite alot more and fulljump dair bombs(Both which would simply wreck spotdodgers).

Yoshi's OOS is LIMITED, I would admit. But it's by no means BAD, since jab out of shield still works fine. And like I said earlier, Yoshi's steadily deteriorating shield prevents him from being shield-stabbed, which lets him sit there until Wario has some post-lag on an attack, then punish it. Sure, Wario could grab, but like you say, Yoshi will roll a lot if that's the case. All he needs is to be out of grab range and he's fine. The point is moot anyway because most Yoshi users avoid use of the shield anyway and instead rely on airdodges, which work even better for Yoshi than they do for Wario. Think about it: Yoshi can airdodge at the beginning of his second jump, and the result is him flying a good distance away from Wario while still remaining invincible.

But even after saying that it's not like Yoshi has no options at all. But it does mean that he has alot alot less than Wario does. That's why we are trying to say that the match isn't overwhelmingly in Wario's favor, but that he defnitely does have the advantage (Wario 6-4 Yoshi).

Yoshi has less options than Wario WHEN HE'S SHIELDING. In any other situation, he has just as many options.

And I know Upsmash after grabhits is absolutely awesome, but remember that it really isn't hard at all for a Wario to jump after a recovering Yoshi and Bite him during his secondjump, even if he's way out there, and still make it back after gimping Yoshi like such at lower %s than I think you realize.

Airdodged second jump, I talked about it before. It works very well and turns Yoshi's SA frames into invincibility frames. I'm pretty sure even Bite can't get to an airdodging opponent.

I hope this all will come across good, but if not, to further understand what I mean and since you are the main contributor in the Yoshi side of the argument, could I just propose that we just exchange friend codes and I show you what I mean about Yoshi dealing with Wario's preasure and avoiding eggs?

I like to think I've been helping... but eh.

His egg toss has little impact in this particular matchup, just admit that maybe you were wrong.

The only time I can see them being useful is when Wario is recovering. Even Wario's godly recovery can't be airdodging every second.


We already stated/agreed that his Egg Toss is not that good of a move because Wario can evade them very well. Wario can evade them by simply recovering really high or by avoiding them even without air dodging. And the eggs only refresh moves if they hit, and since we have already agreed that Wario can dodge them well why would he be getting damaged/hit that much?[/QUOTE]

If he recovers really high, it only makes it easier for Yoshi to hit him. You have to remember that Yoshi can send eggs a great distance vertically. However, Wario does have the ability to airdodge all the time when he's just floating down to the stage. Remember that Yoshi has that ability too, though... that's been an argument point before.

Wario is still faster on the ground. Range is not very relevant or important compared to speed in close combat, correct? If you disagree, tell my why. Well then, even though Yoshi has better range, he is still slower than Wario and this makes his slightly vulnerable on the ground when they are close up. Yoshi also has worse OoS options than Wario, which further solidifies the fact that Yoshi is not so hot on the ground.

Do I have to do the move comparison again? Upon actually testing it in the game, ALL of Yoshi's tilts come out faster and have better range than Wario's. If Yoshi can sit back and harass Wario with his superior range, then of course it's just as important. One d-tilt will come out faster than ANY of Wario's ground moves.
For the shield, see my above comments.

What he means is that Wario definitely has a better tech chase and pressure game than Yoshi and that he can get around most of Yoshi's counter attacks while he is pressuring. Yoshi is limited pretty bad in his shield, his roll isn't that spectacular, and he doesn't have too quick of moves that can disrupt Wario while he is pressuring.

Yoshi's initial dash animation takes him roughly the same distance as any character's roll. His tech chase is just as good as Wario's.
Quickness of moves (Here we go again): F-tilt, d-tilt, and jab can outspeed and/or outrange ALL of Wario's ground options. I did go in and test this. So it's important that this misconception gets out of Wario's head.

His pivot grab is still slower than most of Wario's ground attacks and guess what else? You have to pivot it, which in itself takes at least a frame or two at the very least. Besides, his Grab is still a bit laggy afterwards and it makes him a target for punishment.[/QUOTE]

Yoshi players don't use their grab unless they have the time to use it. If they don't they use one of the attacks above, and everything's good. The grab should be used with caution anyway since it's laggy afterwards, and any Yoshi player should assess the situation before he leaves himself open.

I think the only thing that is possibly keeping this matchup at neutral is the release grab Yoshi has. Even with that, we still need to test it a bit more for better accuracy. If you think Yoshi has the advantage, then by all means, go ahead and state your reasons. Just don't include things that we have honestly rebutted; I will not keep on telling people how Egg Toss is not that good in this matchup.

Yoshi is faster on the ground (Yes he is, go test it for yourself if you don't believe me), outranges Wario in both the ground and air, and outprioritizes Wario in the air. Wario pressures Yoshi's shield and has better priority on the ground. BOTH characters have unpunishable recoveries, great combo abilities, great KO potential, and great air games. I dunno, even without the CG it's looking 6:4 in Yoshi's favor to me...