Brawl Character Match-Up chart

[Izzhov]

I wasn't really being that serious, except Captain Falcon >>>>>>>>>> Snake is definitely true. That one's just obvious.

But yeah, I also think DK > Snake. The others... not so much.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Pikachu definitely has the advantage :s

And so does CAPTAIN FALCOOONEE

 

[JrdnS]

Pikachu definitely has the advantage :s

And so does CAPTAIN FALCOOONEE

pikachu may have an advantage due to his camping. and down b edge guard.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

and... uh... HIS CHAINGRAB >__>;;

 

[JrdnS]

and... uh... HIS CHAINGRAB >__>;;

haha crap i forgot the most important part.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Pikachu is thought to have the advantage because Snake can't get the horizontal momentum from his recovery to dodge Pikachu's thunder even with an air dodge, and because it is incredibly easy for Pikachu to dodge all of Snake's projectiles with his small frame and quick speed.

There may be other reasons Pika has an advantage, but these are the ones I'm sure about.

 

[DanGR]

Wait, so how does Oli beat Snake?
I remember you posting a video a while back showing Oli getting 2-stocked o___o

and Im not a main of either, and I don't know much about both of them.
I'll leave it to a snake main.

Yer...I've been arguing my points for like 4 pages. The videos were of Mr. X' Olimar beating up Psycho ******'s Snake. This particular series of matches between two great players showed Olimar's superiority in his projectiles, aerials, and, pressure game. And them being even at ground game.

No-one has yet to refute my argument that Olimar>Snake successfully and I'm trying to get some other detailed opinions about it. I'd prefer a snake main to come in here, but they're all too busy getting fed grapes on their thrones right now. :/

 

[DivineBlade]

Hmm....I don't agree with some of these match ups, but then again.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Lol, grapes
Could you link me to some quality videos of the two?
I see potential for Olimar winning, but I want to see some of the nuances instead of just reading them.

 

[DanGR]

Sure thing. I'll edit this post when I can find them.


Some things I'd like to point out: Olimar's projectile and aerial superiority, SNAKE HAVING TO APPROACH, His shieldgrabbing snake's filts and jabs, Olimar's edgegame(doesn't suck ), ownage by Mr. X, ^_^

http://youtube.com/watch?v=4_iyIBcGpNA&feature=related
http://youtube.com/watch?v=rZS4GWEOB7s&feature=related

 

[Browny]

what do people think Lucarios chain grabs should be worth. When lucario is from about 0-100 he can bring most characters to around 10-30 but characters like

dk, wolf, dedede, snake, falco, ike, (not inlcuding ones hes already advantaged against)

he can chain + combo out of the chain up to 70-80%, especially on DK and snake.
i dont think i ever appreaciated how broken his CG is on some characters :O

@ dangr, those videos

olimar is broken ive been saying since the start lol. i dont see why people get so worked up about snakes tilts, olimars grab and upsmash is more broken than G&W u-air stalling imo

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Uair stalling is way better than a grab to Usmash xP

Those were really entertaining videos. Olimar forced Snake into a lot of tricks, and Psycho seemed to be getting crushed under the pressure. He didnt seem particularly adapt at approaching, and fumbled a bit.

I also searched some other videos and it was sort of split for me. Sometimes it seemed like the Olimar had things under control and the Snake couldnt handle it, and others showed more aggressive Snakes who didnt seem to care about the pikmin toss.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=R5IC17Ui92w

This one for example. I don't know their relative skill levels, I don't know if they're doing their mains justice or not, but it feels like thats how the matchup should look, instead of some awkward floundering.

...I really think Olimar is a momentum based character. It's as if, when you get the lead, you're in a much better spot, but it becomes almost hopeless when he kills you early. He can cause a lot of pressure, and he thrives on the aggressiveness that comes out of a stock loss.

It's interesting.

I can see this going in Olimar's favor, as he can force approaches like Wolf does, but I don't know much about these two.

Hopefully a Snake main comes wandering along sometime!

 

[DanGR]

Woa, sorry. I couldn't handle that match... The olimar did a standing upb on a walking snake at :21 and I didn't watch the rest when he failed to grab>combo snake at :29. Any smart player would have started some knida of combo there to take the lead. I can see how you'd be mislead from watching that match. It's kinda sad when people think that that's how normal Olimar players are... He really wasn't any good. Here's a thread I'd like to point out for anyone who watches an Olimar player an isn't sure of their skill level:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=175993

 

[DMG]

And the Usmash will always work, I believe. He's probably too concerned about doing the CG to do the Usmash. I'm pretty confident that works.

At this time, it should be placed in the neutral territory.
We don't know enough about the infinite to move this to Yoshi's advantage.
What do you think, doctor?

Yes the Usmash definitely will connect every time. I think putting it at neutral would be suitable at the moment because, as you have correctly pointed out, we should get more info on the infinite first before we can evaluate how it affects the matchup.

For Chomping his recovery, I either use it above the stage or close to it. I've yet to suicide with it since he has the bike jump and even sometimes a double jump and his Upb to get him back. You can even press B a lot to throw them out faster even if they sit still in his mouth.

I've never been that troubled with the Egg Toss, I have sometimes on the ground or on stages like Battle Field but other than that, it doesn't really phase me very much. He may have just been doing it too predictable or something; I'm gonna see who else plays him well in my town.

Let me think of what ground moves Yoshi has that can be punished...
Grab (only if it isn't a pivot grab), d-smash (only if you're on the wrong side of Yoshi first), u-smash (which doesn't hit Wario on the ground anyway, so why bother?).
If you're playing an intelligent Yoshi, they shouldn't be doing these things anyway, since performing them right is so easy to do and none of them have any finishing lag if the attack hits.

Ok and what are his kill moves? What I was trying to say is that if you mess up a tiny bit around Wario at 100%, you think, "Oh boy, he can kill me with Fsmash or Waft or something powerful." When you mess up a little bit around Yoshi at 100%, you think, "Oh boy, I might get hit by a tilt or something kinda weak." It just seems like you have to mess up your timing in more occasions around Yoshi than around Wario before one of them gets a kill.

I'm not denying that Wario's recovery is great, but let's look at it this way to see how Yoshi can shut it down...
From above: Yoshi spams eggs.
From below: Yoshi goes for a spike with fair or dair... if it doesn't land, he uses his DJSA and gets back to the stage. This is really Wario's best bet.
Under the stage: Yoshi waits for him to get to the edge, stays comfortably where he is, and starts egging Wario from across the stage.

Actually, coming from above is the best bet for Wario. If I get hit by an egg, it doesn't spike me and I can still keep going towards the stage. Plus, Wario can recover really high most of the time and the Eggs just can't travel that far up. I wasn't really serious when I said he can go under the stage when recovering but he can also change his mind halfway below and make it.

So to avoid Chompings, Yoshi either spaces his second jump in a way that leaves him on the ledge or just recovers from above. Egg Boosts don't give you much vertical space, but they can make him move horizontally quite well, especially when he's already double jumped to a high part of the stage. And footstools aren't a Wario-specific matchup point, so they really aren't relevant to Wario vs Yoshi... Yoshi will suffer from a Wario footstool just as much as a Bowser footstool.

I'll just gimp him while he is tossing eggs (unless he is really high up, then I'll just wait for him to fall.) Point is, Yoshi really has to go out of his way and recover in creative ways to avoid disaster while Wario can usually use the tried and true method of just using the bike and whatever else he has left.

Of course Wario can combo, I understand that. But Yoshi can do the same thing better. Bair to bair racks up more damage than any Wario combo except maybe the first two, but Yoshi can just do a billion damage with his own dair anyway. More Yoshi combos? U-smash to u-smash, f-tilt to f-tilt to uair to uair to uair? (No that's not a juggle. Yoshi uses the move three times while ascending.) Yoshi's f-tilt and u-tilt lead reliably into all of his aerials except fair, two of which are damage-rackers and two of which are potential KO moves.

Do they register as actual combo's in training mode? Cause Bite to Boost Smash does, Dair to Dair surprisingly can depending on how well you end it, fair to fair and fair to nair are, and even Uair can combo sometimes. If Yoshi's combos don't register, then what is stopping me from airdodging his second upsmash or his Uairs while he soars away by himself? The bairs probably do register as an actual combo although you do have to have good timing.

If they don't register, what can Yoshi do to follow up and keep applying pressure? If I airdodge his Bair or an aerial of his, what can he do to keep me from evading too far away and keep me on my toes? If Yoshi messes up, he doesn't have very much of a follow up game. Wario can mess up a combo and follow up better than Yoshi can.

Until I started using Yoshi I thought his eggs were dodgeable too, but it turns out it's not so easy. And while they might not stop recovery, Wario was very likely to recover anyway, and the eggs are mostly just to rack up damage while he's coming back. And nair is a perfect combo breaker... it's a sex kick that hits in front of, below, and just behind Yoshi.

They are a minor nuisance at best. His Nair is an ok combo breaker, but it really doesn't have that much priority and I have hit Yoshi with Fair plenty of times when he had it out (Head on, not from below him or above him either.)

I know I'm not Doctor Mario Guy... sorry... but until the CG is fully developed, I still think this is in Yoshi's favor. I don't really see how Wario trumps Yoshi in any way.

Wario has Better kill moves (Faster, do more damage, and have better knockback), Better recovery and edgeguarding, Air game and ground game are arguably about the same for both characters I guess, and they both can combo (although I still think Wario does it better).

For now lets put the matchup at even, does that sound fair to everyone else?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Dang it!

I played a great match of shiek Vs. Ike against Bo4KT... shiek won pretty comfortably, and it showed EXACTLY how the match goes normally...

... but it took 3:06 seconds.... 6 seconds too long for me to save the replay and send it to DanGR to prove my point.

oh well... I still stand by it... and STRONGLY suggest that IvanEva change his chart to read that:
Sheik > Ike

 

[Swordplay]

Does marth really have an advantage over link? I thought for sure this would be neutral.

First off Link has projectiles which will prove frustrating for marth and force him to approach. Marth has a good air game and will probably approach through the air. But Link has zair which can negate the approach.

marth has a complete advantage off the stage but I thought on stage link might have a slight advantage which is why i thought it was even. is there something I am not seeing because good links WILL spam zair against marth making it hard for him to get close.

It is also hard for marth to air dodge because ziar has 2 hitbox's (chain and claw)

Link will also just be waiting with a d-smash if marth does airdodge. and propel him away.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

you are right... Link's projectiles force marth to approach... it's just too bad that:
Marth's Approach game > Link's defense game

 

[the guy you dont know]

i side main ganondorf, and i agree with MOST of the X's on that chart for him.. but me and a couple friends agree that ganondorf has the upper hand against captain falcon XD


also, in my opinion as a lover of metaknight, marth beats metaknight.

 

[Crackle]

Maybe they just suck with capt. falcon

 

[BoTastic!]

Does marth really have an advantage over link? I thought for sure this would be neutral.

First off Link has projectiles which will prove frustrating for marth and force him to approach. Marth has a good air game and will probably approach through the air. But Link has zair which can negate the approach.

marth has a complete advantage off the stage but I thought on stage link might have a slight advantage which is why i thought it was even. is there something I am not seeing because good links WILL spam zair against marth making it hard for him to get close.

It is also hard for marth to air dodge because ziar has 2 hitbox's (chain and claw)

Link will also just be waiting with a d-smash if marth does airdodge. and propel him away.

i kinda agree with u...

 

[Mr. Escalator]

I think not enough credit is given to Link, and the mains of high tier characters, like Marth, tend to ignore the other character. Maybe not ignore, but they're biased to their own. Even though Emblem Lord would disagree with you, I feel Link is on equal footing with Marth.

 

[DMG]

I think not enough credit is given to Link, and the mains of high tier characters, like Marth, tend to ignore the other character. Maybe not ignore, but they're biased to their own. Even though Emblem Lord would disagree with you, I feel Link is on equal footing with Marth.

People will have biases no matter what character they main, but yeah the higher tier mains seem more biased than someone who mains Sonic or Jiggs for example.

I think Link is at just a slight disadvantage. I honestly think that if he had a better/more reliable recovery, then he would be even or possibly have an advantage here. Sadly, Sakurai decided to give him that woeful recovery.

 

[Dpete]

Kirby's match-ups are very outdated, as is the match-up thread. The Kirby community is just starting to get a good debate about match-ups in this thread: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=176103. If you have experience playing against a good Kirby, feel free to drop by and offer your opinion on his match-up vs your characters.

Nothing is set in stone yet, and until we get a general consensus about some match-ups I wouldn't worry with changing the chart.

 

[the guy you dont know]

Maybe they just suck with capt. falcon

Thats not it, i've played a lot of captain falcon players, and the people i play with are all pretty elite players. its just, in our opinion, ganondorf beats captain falcon.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Yeah... prime example:

my Link beats Metaknight pretty handely actually. In fact, I'd say Link has the advantage on MK.... unfortunately... his recovery is just SO bad that the best link can hope for is even footing

 

[the guy you dont know]

Yeah... prime example:

my Link beats Metaknight pretty handely actually. In fact, I'd say Link has the advantage on MK.... unfortunately... his recovery is just SO bad that the best link can hope for is even footing

PFFT. i main metaknight, although i agree a skilled link is tough to beat, i dont think link really has the upper hand.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

PFFT. i main metaknight, although i agree a skilled link is tough to beat, i dont think link really has the upper hand.

as I said... link WOULD have the upper hand... if it weren;t for his AWFUL recovery.

since he DOES have an awful recovery, the best he can hope for is an even matchup... Dang sakurai and his apparent hatred of Link.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

I still dont see why Link would have an advantage even if he had the very best recovery.
The Zair isnt the most useful, and probably will only see use to stop the Mach Tornado.
MK doesnt have many issues with projectiles, as his approach is too sick.
Link has some range, but the pressure machine that is MK usually doesnt have issues versus those with this claim.

But with MK's amazing chase game, and Link's bad recovery, it's definitely not even.

But Link is still very good. I find him pretty hard as G&W.

 

[the guy you dont know]

I still dont see why Link would have an advantage even if he had the very best recovery.
The Zair isnt the most useful, and probably will only see use to stop the Mach Tornado.
MK doesnt have many issues with projectiles, as his approach is too sick.
Link has some range, but the pressure machine that is MK usually doesnt have issues versus those with this claim.

But with MK's amazing chase game, and Link's bad recovery, it's definitely not even.

But Link is still very good. I find him pretty hard as G&W.

I agree. but i do think marth should be shown as having an advantage over metaknight. its true and a lot of metaknight users would probably agree.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I still dont see why Link would have an advantage even if he had the very best recovery.
The Zair isnt the most useful, and probably will only see use to stop the Mach Tornado.
MK doesnt have many issues with projectiles, as his approach is too sick.
Link has some range, but the pressure machine that is MK usually doesnt have issues versus those with this claim.

But with MK's amazing chase game, and Link's bad recovery, it's definitely not even.

But Link is still very good. I find him pretty hard as G&W.

Link has more range and more priority than you... and despite MK's sick approach, Link's projectiles, if used by a properly experienced player, will be a headache for MK.


Link can KO MK at rather low damages, and for someone with his power and disjointed hitboxes, link's attacks come out rather quickly.

They'll probably be trading damage the whole match... the problem is that MK can normally edgeguard kill link before link can KO the metal-masked bat.

if it weren't for link's absolutely terrible recovery... this matchup would be his I think

 

[Kiwikomix]

I've never been that troubled with the Egg Toss, I have sometimes on the ground or on stages like Battle Field but other than that, it doesn't really phase me very much. He may have just been doing it too predictable or something; I'm gonna see who else plays him well in my town.

It's too bad you're not closer to the midwest, otherwise I'd play you in wifi.... but from so far away there would be lag. Oh well...
The thing about Yoshi's eggs is that they cover the most versatile space of any projectile except Pit's arrows. They can hit straight up above Yoshi, right in front of him, all the way across the level... they dominate stages like Battlefield or FD.

Ok and what are his kill moves? What I was trying to say is that if you mess up a tiny bit around Wario at 100%, you think, "Oh boy, he can kill me with Fsmash or Waft or something powerful." When you mess up a little bit around Yoshi at 100%, you think, "Oh boy, I might get hit by a tilt or something kinda weak." It just seems like you have to mess up your timing in more occasions around Yoshi than around Wario before one of them gets a kill.

All of Yoshi's smashes have KO potential, as do his nair and uair. Even if you do get hit by a tilt or something weak, it will usually lead reliably into one of those aerial KO moves.
Also, does waft really have that much KO potential? It seems ridiculously weak for how long it has to be charged up, and it sends Wario high enough that it can't combo into anything else... I'd think that a good Wario would save it for recovery.
The chances of Yoshi "messing up" are slightly less than Wario's chances because Yoshi has more range on his attacks than Wario.

Actually, coming from above is the best bet for Wario. If I get hit by an egg, it doesn't spike me and I can still keep going towards the stage. Plus, Wario can recover really high most of the time and the Eggs just can't travel that far up. I wasn't really serious when I said he can go under the stage when recovering but he can also change his mind halfway below and make it.

Yoshi can still jump or double jump and send an egg or two right in Wario's face. What can Wario do to stop Yoshi when he's above him/

I'll just gimp him while he is tossing eggs (unless he is really high up, then I'll just wait for him to fall.) Point is, Yoshi really has to go out of his way and recover in creative ways to avoid disaster while Wario can usually use the tried and true method of just using the bike and whatever else he has left.

Yoshi won't be throwing eggs unless he IS high up. And he can always get more horizontal distance and airdodge-land to avoid Wario's attacks. Or he could just downB... the priority on that attack is pretty low, but Yoshi can space it so that Wario is stunned by the stars rather than hit by Yoshi himself.
The problem with Wario's recovery is he runs out of ground options when he has to recover. Can I use the bike to approach? Nope, I have to save it for recovery. Can I Waft? Nope, I have to use it for recovery. That's two of his specials that are basically unusable until Wario's in trouble. Sure, you can eat the bike, but we already talked about punishment...

Do they register as actual combo's in training mode? Cause Bite to Boost Smash does, Dair to Dair surprisingly can depending on how well you end it, fair to fair and fair to nair are, and even Uair can combo sometimes. If Yoshi's combos don't register, then what is stopping me from airdodging his second upsmash or his Uairs while he soars away by himself? The bairs probably do register as an actual combo although you do have to have good timing.

I know that the bairs register, and so do the rising uairs. Even if Yoshi for some reason missed, a player with average reflexes could just downB while Wario is airdodging and catch him as his airdodge finishes.

If they don't register, what can Yoshi do to follow up and keep applying pressure? If I airdodge his Bair or an aerial of his, what can he do to keep me from evading too far away and keep me on my toes? If Yoshi messes up, he doesn't have very much of a follow up game. Wario can mess up a combo and follow up better than Yoshi can.

Things like "messing up combos" are more of a reflection on the player, not so much the character. Even if Yoshi misses a bair, he can use another bair. The likelihood that it could be dodged is lessened because it's a multi-hit attack.

Wario has Better kill moves (Faster, do more damage, and have better knockback), Better recovery and edgeguarding, Air game and ground game are arguably about the same for both characters I guess, and they both can combo (although I still think Wario does it better).

Yoshi can have trouble killing, I admit that. But his recovery really can't be edgeguarded since it's surprisingly versatile and it has SA frames. Also, if Wario is trying to chomp-edgeguard, Yoshi can just use egg lay, which has greater range. Or he could just airdodge over the chomp into a punishing dair, since the airdodge will continue his upward and forward momentum. See how it's all coming back to Wario's punishable moves?

By the way, which moves of Wario's can kill? Just out of curiosity.

For now lets put the matchup at even, does that sound fair to everyone else?

T_T

I think not enough credit is given to Yoshi, and the mains of high tier characters, like Wario, tend to ignore the other character. Maybe not ignore, but they're biased to their own..

Fixed :D

 

[Emblem Lord]

Uhhhh. It was the Link boards that said Marth has slight advantage on Link. I though it was even originally.

Still Link has his problems so I can see why it would be Marth's advantage.

But who cares.

Marth goes even with EVERYONE IN THE GAME M I RITE?!?!?!!?

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Uhhhh. It was the Link boards that said Marth has slight advantage on Link. I though it was even originally.

Still Link has his problems so I can see why it would be Marth's advantage.

But who cares.

Marth goes even with EVERYONE IN THE GAME M I RITE?!?!?!!?

Except Snake, but who does go even with Snake >_>

 

[DMG]

All of Yoshi's smashes have KO potential, as do his nair and uair. Even if you do get hit by a tilt or something weak, it will usually lead reliably into one of those aerial KO moves.
Also, does waft really have that much KO potential? It seems ridiculously weak for how long it has to be charged up, and it sends Wario high enough that it can't combo into anything else... I'd think that a good Wario would save it for recovery.
The chances of Yoshi "messing up" are slightly less than Wario's chances because Yoshi has more range on his attacks than Wario.

Waft can be released at haft charge and it has ridiculous knockback. We never save it for recovery unless we absolutely think it is necessary to survive (it usually is not necessary). This leads me to think you have not played an experienced Wario, but I'm not gonna pass judgment until I can play you.

Yoshi's punishers are SLOWER than Wario's and his killing moves are slower than his best punishers. Range does not matter as much as speed if you are trying to punish quickly.

Yoshi can still jump or double jump and send an egg or two right in Wario's face. What can Wario do to stop Yoshi when he's above him.

Airdodge? Dair?

Yoshi won't be throwing eggs unless he IS high up. And he can always get more horizontal distance and airdodge-land to avoid Wario's attacks. Or he could just downB... the priority on that attack is pretty low, but Yoshi can space it so that Wario is stunned by the stars rather than hit by Yoshi himself.
The problem with Wario's recovery is he runs out of ground options when he has to recover. Can I use the bike to approach? Nope, I have to save it for recovery. Can I Waft? Nope, I have to use it for recovery. That's two of his specials that are basically unusable until Wario's in trouble. Sure, you can eat the bike, but we already talked about punishment...

Waft is not an issue and the bike is only an issue if they leave it on the stage. You can still use it on stage as long as it falls off shortly after. Most good Wario's avoid leaving it on the stage. Egg Toss is punishable for recovery and if Yoshi doesn't have a double jump left and gets knocked off again, it doesn't help him too much there.

Down B is a terrible "GTFO" move for Yoshi, I'm pretty sure most Yoshi mains limit the use of that move a lot.

I know that the bairs register, and so do the rising uairs. Even if Yoshi for some reason missed, a player with average reflexes could just downB while Wario is airdodging and catch him as his airdodge finishes.

I was sure the bairs do, but I don't see 3 uairs connecting very well. Down B for Yoshi is a terrible move in general, using it to punish is not too good of an idea as well.

Things like "messing up combos" are more of a reflection on the player, not so much the character. Even if Yoshi misses a bair, he can use another bair. The likelihood that it could be dodged is lessened because it's a multi-hit attack.

Wario's Dair is a multi hitter too. The thing is, if Wario messes up, his follow up choices are better than Yoshi's. He can punish defensive options with Chomp, he can get to the ground quicker than Yoshi, and he can change directions in midair better than Yoshi can IIRC. Yoshi has more range and a better double jump to catch people that flee high in midair, that's about it though.

Yoshi can have trouble killing, I admit that. But his recovery really can't be edgeguarded since it's surprisingly versatile and it has SA frames. Also, if Wario is trying to chomp-edgeguard, Yoshi can just use egg lay, which has greater range. Or he could just airdodge over the chomp into a punishing dair, since the airdodge will continue his upward and forward momentum. See how it's all coming back to Wario's punishable moves?

By the way, which moves of Wario's can kill? Just out of curiosity.

Now you are dragging this into theoretical turf. "If Wario does this, Yoshi does that and he automatically gets out of trouble." I could say something like that for everything Yoshi does, but it is unrealistic to expect someone to be able to actually counter everything in a real match.

I'm not saying that Yoshi is extremely punishable while recovering or that he is easy to edgeguard, but when compared to Wario he has a harder time recovering and edgeguarding than Wario. He has to work harder than Wario in both areas and that should be an advantage for Wario.

Fsmash, Waft (Half charged kills the best), Fthrow, Ftilt, Dsmash, and Uair in no particular order. Those are his best killers, although he can also get some quick gimp kills with Aerials offstage.


Of course I am somewhat biased towards Wario. I try to throw that bias out the window when it comes to analyzing matchups and I think I do a better job of that then 70% of people that post in here. And no one can honestly come in here and say they are truly neutral towards every character, so don't go pointing fingers at me.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

have y'all taken in account wario's side of the matchup? You can't just say yoshi has an infinite and thus yoshi>>wario. IC has an infinite on every character, (AND IC ARE BETTER THAN YOSHI) but they aren't ahead of every matchup? Have you considered that it's very hard to grab wario among all the characters in the first place? All of these one line explanations are making me sick.

This brings up a VERY good point.

Ness and Lucas might counter Zelda's Din's fire as a camping impliment... but who says that cripples her?

I still don't have any special problems with lucas or ness. I just have to play differently... but that doesn't mean that I can't win. in fact... Ness is not a problem at all... and lucas isn't any harder than most of the cast

 

[talkingbeatles]

CAN SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME WHY CAPTAIN FALCON HAS AN ADVANTAGE OVER SQUIRTLE?!?!

Please?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

This brings up a VERY good point.

Ness and Lucas might counter Zelda's Din's fire as a camping impliment... but who says that cripples her?

I still don't have any special problems with lucas or ness. I just have to play differently... but that doesn't mean that I can't win. in fact... Ness is not a problem at all... and lucas isn't any harder than most of the cast

oh... and I'm not saying we need to change it... just that it needs to be further reviewed.

But the Shiek = Ike DEFFINITELY needs to be changed to Shiek > Ike

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Slooooow doooown STH. Wait until your other matches are change before you hint at some looking into
It's generally accepted that Zelda has a hard time in this fight. It's not just the Din's Fire.
And basing you're stuff off of whether or not you had trouble with so-and-so is a very bad way to get anything changed on this list. If you ever do want to argue Zelda v Ness, I'll be happy to oblige.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Slooooow doooown STH. Wait until your other matches are change before you hint at some looking into
It's generally accepted that Zelda has a hard time in this fight. It's not just the Din's Fire.
And basing you're stuff off of whether or not you had trouble with so-and-so is a very bad way to get anything changed on this list. If you ever do want to argue Zelda v Ness, I'll be happy to oblige.

go into detail

 

[Mr. Escalator]

No.
I'm not here to argue this matchup.
I will when you bring up stuff, but you are still waiting for your other input.
(which should still be discussed with an Ike main, I believe)
I'm not going to be baited into a premature discussion.

You're too much of a Zelda/Shiek fanatic >___>