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Ftilt is not fast. Its telegraphed similar to the nair.
what do you mean what's my point?
Well, edgeguarding may mean something different but I thought it meant you had to actually stand on the stage. That guy kinda used it late, but I see your point Sheik does have a good advantage while Ike's off the stage.
EdgeHOGGING is when you block someone from grabing the edge because you are already on it
**** English majors with their made-up words... "Vicissitudes"!? What that hell that does mean!?
That is correct as I've never heard of it before. A quick link would be most helpful (I know, it's probably all over the Yoshi boards and all that but, y'know, I'm a lazy bum). I'd love to change a Yoshi match-up to large advantage so I'm hoping that this is true and useable in a tournament setting (i.e not some wall infinite thingy).
I can't quite tell if Metaknight has the upper hand with the priority (which I should think he does since he has a sword hitbox and all that) but at the very least he stuffs Ganondorf's attacks and he has an easy time following up on them. Ganondorf's weight isn't really much of an issue here since Metaknight will be killing him by gimping rather then knockout. Being close is Metaknight's specialty, not Ganondorf's. Metaknight can weave in and out of attacks all he wants while Ganondorf will have to pick his moments. Moves like Metaknight's forward or backward aerials are very difficult to counter with Ganondorf.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
have y'all taken in account wario's side of the matchup? You can't just say yoshi has an infinite and thus yoshi>>wario. IC has an infinite on every character, (AND IC ARE BETTER THAN YOSHI) but they aren't ahead of every matchup? Have you considered that it's very hard to grab wario among all the characters in the first place? All of these one line explanations are making me sick.
Sheik sucks at edgeguarding, seriously. Ike just sucks at recovering even worse though.
This^ is what I want to see in people's discussion of matchups. Not one liners saying "OMG, YOSHI HAS AN INFINITE ON WARIO, THUS YOSHI>>>>>>>WARIO.
Ike's recovery is bad, I agree. I'm wondering how that gives sheik, especially, an advantage over ike? It doesn't. Again, I'm not disagreeing with the matchup, but pointless arguments only clog up this thread.
This is what I'm talking about^. Her moves are faster. So what? DK, Bowser, and DDD have some pretty slow moves, but they still have advantageous matchups. State that sheik has priority over ike, (which we can believe) and your point will be valid about how his slow moves hurt him.
valid point but:
Not so much... pretty much every one of Wario's hard-hitting ground attacks either come out slowly or finish slowly. The ones that come out slowly he can't punish with, and the ones that finish slowly he can be punished for quite easily. Yoshi's f-tilt is the perfect punishing move, as it comes out quickly, finishes quickly, has great range, and can lead into his other moves.
I'll concede the edgeguarding, but Wario's recovery only tends to follow one trajectory. Therefore, when he's in danger of coming back, even Yoshi's lackluster edgeguard can punish him. And you can't really edgeguard a double jump that has super armor.
Yoshi's bair outranges any of Wario's aerial moves. For the ground game, see the first comment.
I really doubt even Wario can combo at Yoshi's level. Granted, combos barely exist in Brawl, but Yoshi still manages to chain a few hits together, and a lot of his combos lead into his KO moves.
Better is quite subjective. Yoshi can punish well with his grabs which leads to a CG (which works on a lot of characters), a Dair which racks up a tooon of damage, jabs that easily and fluently link into tils, and obvious smashes. Wario has a lot too, but its quite arguable that one has a more effective punishment game. And, even if one did have a punishing game that fits better with their metagame, that has NO bearing on the matchup. Yoshi is quite hard to punish, he really is.
This is irrelevant to the matchup, it really is. Wario may have a decent recovery, but Yoshi may not even need to chase. His egg toss game racks up a lot of damage and unstales his moves, so I can see him doing that while Wario recovers.
You really can't claim one his better than anothers unless it's painfully obvious. There are many nuances, and I dont want to argue how each works in the air. Yoshi should be able to go toe-to-toe against Wario up there.
Lol.
I've played the shiek Vs. Ike match MULTIPLE times... even against higher skilled ikes. assuming the lag isn't bad... this is sheik's game to lose.
I don't really know this matchup well, but I can assure you that Wario's recovery is one of the best in the game. It's fast, he jumps high, and wario's air game after he jumps off the bike is ridiculous. It's hard to punish if the Wario knows what he's doing.
he eh...I'm not the smash police and I don't really know the matchup and how serious your arguements are... but they're ok. I just get pissed when people come in and say random stuff like x>y b/c x has bigger balls than y or somethin.
Wario has Fsmash, Chomp, Jab, and even Dtilt and Dsmash to punish quickly with (yes dtilt and Dsmash definitely leave you open if you aren't successful.) I guess both characters have some punishers but it seems like Wario can also use some of them for killing, while Yoshi would have to work harder landing a killing move.
Wario has an amazing recovery. He can come from above (unless he gets spiked or something), he can come from below, he can even go under some stages while trying to make it back to the stage. Saying his recovery is "one tracked" or easy to follow is a big underestimation. His biggest weakness is his reliance on the Bike and otherwise, it is up there in the top recoveries.
The reason I said slightly is because Yoshi can't always have his back turned away from Wario. Plus, Yoshi is also vulnerable from the front and from Below when he is in the air.
Wario can combo well. Dair to Dair, Chomp to Boost Smash, Fair to Fair, Fair to Nair, ect. ect. I don't think Yoshi has combo abilities like that.
Wario is not troubled very much by egg toss, whether it be while recovering or on the stage. Using Egg Toss to edgeguard is unreliable and ineffective in most cases. Also, Nair is not that good of a combo breaker, especially on Dair chains or if the combo leads into a chomp.
Yoshi doesnt need to have his back turned to Bair >__>
Nair should be used to discourage the chomp. Chomp only gets rid of the double jump if he uses it and you catch him with it.
Funny thing is... Anybody can airdodge all of those "combo's". Dair to Dair especially. The best of those is Chomp to the boost Usmash, but then again, Yoshi's range keeps him out of the range of chomp for the most part. If he does get caught, he can DI fast enough out of range and have a nair covering his retreat.
Yep, you havent faced a good Yoshi yet
I got that from a Yoshi player. I've never CG'd a Wario, and I've never got CG'd as a Wario. The reasoning for why you get out early is because of mistiming. Theres a small frame of time where this is an infinite, and if they dont grab perfectly, you will go out. This isnt an easy infinite like Marth has on Ness, so theres no reason for this to be changed to large disadvantage.
i thought so too. looks like it was changed to nuetral. DK still probably has a slight advantage. but with snakes metagame developing not as much as before.
yeah.youre probably right.
snakes neutral a is a three hit combo,aaa, so i thinj DKs if you just press a one time. the last hit of the combo probably has more priority. im pretty sure
Let me think of what ground moves Yoshi has that can be punished...
I'm not denying that Wario's recovery is great, but let's look at it this way to see how Yoshi can shut it down...
So to avoid Chompings, Yoshi either spaces his second jump in a way that leaves him on the ledge or just recovers from above. Egg Boosts don't give you much vertical space, but they can make him move horizontally quite well, especially when he's already double jumped to a high part of the stage. And footstools aren't a Wario-specific matchup point, so they really aren't relevant to Wario vs Yoshi... Yoshi will suffer from a Wario footstool just as much as a Bowser footstool.
Of course Wario can combo, I understand that. But Yoshi can do the same thing better. Bair to bair racks up more damage than any Wario combo except maybe the first two, but Yoshi can just do a billion damage with his own dair anyway. More Yoshi combos? U-smash to u-smash, f-tilt to f-tilt to uair to uair to uair? (No that's not a juggle. Yoshi uses the move three times while ascending.) Yoshi's f-tilt and u-tilt lead reliably into all of his aerials except fair, two of which are damage-rackers and two of which are potential KO moves.
well ok...are you being serious. i think dk is the only one with the advantage out of these.
